Talk:spruce

This used to be in Category:Polish derivations, but if I understand Webster right, then it would be a just a mispronunciation of Prussia. Hence it is not derived from a Polish word. henne 12:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

According to English historian Norman Davies (in his book God's playground: a history of Poland) word spruce is a derivation from Polish z Prus - from Prussia.

RFD

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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spruce

Rfd-redundant: (Adjective) Made of the wood of spruce. I think this not the only way that "spruce" is used attributively. For example, "spruce forest", "spruce needle", "spruce cone", "spruce bark", "spruce pest". If we are to include attributive use we need to include a more inclusive sense such as "being of or related to spruce". Of course, both senses probably should be deleted, monolingualexically speaking. DCDuring TALK 19:12, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Delete. I'm tagging and adding the adjective sense "Being from a spruce tree" to this rfd-sense, and saying "delete" for it, too.​—msh210℠ 18:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

This should be at RFV to look for citations right? I generally thought stuff that's plausible as a true adjective goes there, and stuff that isn't gets deleted immediately. Mglovesfun (talk) 07:51, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Moving to RFV. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:55, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

RFV

The following information has failed Wiktionary's verification process.

Failure to be verified means that insufficient eligible citations of this usage have been found, and the entry therefore does not meet Wiktionary inclusion criteria at the present time. We have archived here the disputed information, the verification discussion, and any documentation gathered so far, pending further evidence.
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spruce

Rfv-senses:

1. Made of the wood of the spruce.
2. Being from a spruce tree.

Originally at RFD, moved here as adjectival use is a matter of attestation. Usually. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:57, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what counts as an adjective in English. In Swedish we make compounds for things like "spruce table" (of the wood) and "spruce cone" (from the tree). But anyway, these examples are easy enough to find on the web, just like "pine" table/cone and "oak" table/leaf. --LA2 19:04, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Wiktionary:English adjectives gives a bit of guidance. Compounds like you mention aren't (necessarily) using the word as an adjective; you can't say *"this cone is spruce", for example, as you'd expect to be able to if "spruce cone" simply meant "cone that is spruce" (with "spruce" meaning "from a spruce tree"). —Ruakh_TALK 19:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

But can you say "this table is oak"? And is that guiding the fact that oak is listed as an adjective? --LA2 21:59, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

This is just like the discussion about some of the senses of brass#Adjective at #brass. OneLook dictionaries don't have adjective senses for these. I'll bet the OED doesn't either (but only at even money). DCDuring TALK 22:08, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

@LA2: Your questions make me think that you're taking "oak" and "pine" to be confirmed adjectives, and asking how "spruce" is different? (Am I right?) If so, I should clarify that I'm not sure that "oak" and "pine" are adjectives, either (at least in the relevant senses). —Ruakh_TALK 21:53, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I'm asking. I have no real clue what counts as an adjective in English. Why is expired listed as an adjective, but exposed just as a verb form? Why is oak listed as an adjective, if spruce doesn't qualify? --LA2 16:00, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Two reasons IMO

1. There are as yet 'unofficial' tests at WT:English adjectives that some words will meet and someone won't
2. We're inconsistent on everything due to several reasons, like lack of contributors, personal opinion, etc.

Mglovesfun (talk) 16:22, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Senses removed for now as RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 22:16, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

z Prus

In Poland, It's commonly said that Spruce comes for zPrus (Polish for "ꜱᴛʜ from Prussia") I am a Green Bee (talk) 19:36, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Etymology

The etymology in the main article is confused and mostly incorrect.

To cite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Spruce#Correct_Etymology :

„ Correct Etymology

The name of the tree spruce comes directly from the Polish phrase “z Prus” (from Prussia). In the Middle Ages, the Hanseatic merchants from the region of Praussia (which was part of the Kingdom of Poland at that time) brought goods (including Spruce wood) by ships to many ports around the Baltic and the North Seas. They did not speak the languages of the countries they brought the goods to. They were trying to communicate using the Polish language and the usual phrase they used was “z Prus” to inform the local merchants that they came from Prussia. After a while the English merchants picked it up as the name of the tree the Polish merchants brought and called it „sprews” then “Spruce”, which is pronounced exactly as the Polish “z Prus”. The etymology in the main article is wrong. There is no reason why the name of this tree would come from French 98.7.12.219 (talk) 19:45, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

That is indeed correct. The word "spruce" traces its etymology not from the French word "Pruce," as is commonly and mistakenly believed, but rather from the Polish phrase "z Prus," meaning "from Prussia." This correct origin, emphasized by the esteemed English historian Norman Davies in his authoritative work "God's Playground: A History of Poland," highlights the linguistic journey from the Middle Ages' Hanseatic trade. Polish Hanseatic sailors and traders, when asked about the type of wood, would reply with "z Prus," referring to its Prussian origin. Over time, English adapted and morphed this phrase into "spruce," signifying not just any wood but specifically the spruce tree. This transformation showcases the profound influence of trade on language, debunking the lazy explanation that links the word to French origins. Davies' research offers a more accurate and credible account than commonly referenced sources like etymonline.com, underscoring the importance of historical and linguistic precision in tracing the roots of words in the English language. 46.205.140.25 (talk) 20:48, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Also, as stated in the main article, the word spruce (spuse, sprws) originally has been the term for all kinds of goods brought to England by Hanseatic merchants from Prussia (part of the Kingdom of Poland at the time), which is a direct evidence that the origin of the word is the Polish phrase "Z Prus" literally meaning "From Prussia". etymonline.com has been known as a not very credible source of etymology, of which this case is a perfect proof. As a side note, etymonline.com is a commercial website having the quantity a not quality of content as its main interest/goal. It shouldn't be a respected practice to use etymonline.com as a source of citations.

It is a common notion among Polish and English historians that the Polish Hanseatic merchants did not speak much of English and they used the Polish phrase "Z Prus" to inform potential buyers that they are bringing their goods from Prussia, which was the region in direct vicinity of the Polish Hanseatic port of Gdansk.

It's about time someone updates the etymology section of the main article. 46.205.140.25 (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

“