Wiktionary talk:Requested entries (Romanian)

Older Romanian grammatical terms?

In Sab. Pop. Barcianu's dictionary Vocabulariu romanu-nemtiescu -- Romanisch-deutsches Wörterbuch (Sibiiu=Hermannstadt, 1868) the abbreviations of grammatical terms have these full forms:

adjectivu, adverbiu, conjunctiune, interjectiune, nedeclinabile, numerale, participiu, pluralu, prepositiune, pronume, substantivu, verbu activu, verbu neutru, verbu nepersonale, verbu reflesivu
(in English this should be: adjective, adverb, conjunction, interjection, indeclinable, numeral, participle, plural, preposition, pronoun, substantive, active verb, neuter verb, impersonal verb, reflexive verb;
compare modern Romanian vocabular, adjectiv, adverb, conjuncție, interjecție, prepoziție, plural, substantiv, verb, verb reflexiv).

It's said to be Romanian, but I don't know if that's correct. Is it Romanian, or a Romanian dialect or an old form of Romanian, or another language? -tiune could be an older or incorrect spelling of -țiune= -ție (in other dictionaries from 1862 and 1870 one can find interjecțiune), ne- could be ne-. Furthermore, are these older terms even attestable for Wiktionary?
PS: By the etymology of Romanian adjectiv and adverb given here and in the Romanian Wiktionary, the terms with -u or -iu could be native Romanian forms, while the terms without -u or -iu could be Gallicism. Romanian Wiktionary also has an entry ro:prepozițiune (with z instead of s and ț instead of t). -80.133.124.200 17:18, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

These are older forms and spellings. I believe the lack of diacritical marks is not an accident. These are "latinized" spellings from before the standardization of the language and they don't quite reflect the pronunciation. For example, "ti" was used instead of "ț" in "nemtiescu". The final -u had disappeared from the spoken language by then, but was still used in writing. Unfortunately I can't access the dictionary on Google Books, but many of these forms should be attestable. Redboywild (talk) 20:26, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your fast reply!

-tiune should indeed be an old spelling even used in Romanian texts.

With Google Books it seems that conjuncțiune, interjecțiune, preposițiune and substantivu, adjectivu, verbu could be attestable. prepositiune (with t instead of ț) could be attestable too, while prepozițiune could be unattestable.

BTW, as for Google Books, ț can be OCRed as t and f, so one might find citations searching for an incorrect interjecfiune. -80.133.109.90 14:15, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Added a few more sources below, and at least some grammar terms with u and -tiune should be attestable.
Not sure how it is with Cyrillic Romanian, though I also don't know how to search for it. While trying to search for it, google did not bring up any results for me. Anyway, at least the younger Cryillic script form of pronume could be attestable, as it's not affected by the difference between -tiune/-țiune/-ție, by the variation of u at the end, and by the differences of т/t, к/k/c, с/s, though it might be affected by a difference between прonome/pronome vs. прonꙋme/pronume.

Younger Cyrillic (or mixed Cyrillic-Latin) Romanian:

(as used by Sab. Pop. Barcianu): арtiкꙋлꙋ̆, сꙋбсtаntiвꙋ̆, (аdжeкtiвꙋ̆ - the letter at the place of к looks to different to be a real к or k?), вeрбꙋ̆, прonꙋme, (inтeржeкчĭꙋne - the letter at the place of к looks to different to be a real к or k?)

(as in the dictionary by A. Ißer): (артiкꙋл - printing error instead of артiкꙋлꙋ or артiклꙋ?), сꙋбстаnтiвꙋ, аdжeктiвꙋ, вeрбꙋ, прonꙋme, inтeржeкцie

(as in the dictionary by Polysu, Baritz, Johann): артiкoл, сꙋбстаnтiв, аdжeктiв, вeрб , прonꙋme, inтeржeкцie

= articulu/articol, substantivu/substantiv, adjectivu/adjectiv, verbu/verb, pronume, interjecție

= article, substantive, adjective, verb, pronoun, interjection

Older Cyrillic Romanian:

(as in the work by G. Vida; ?): верб

= verb

(Printed Cryllic looks slightly different, especially in case of б and older Cyrillic е.)

-80.133.117.75 17:41, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Sorry to butt in. Unfortunately, I was forced to revert and delete these "obsolete" forms because they were never really used or naturalised, so they cannot be archaic or obsolete. As I understand it, these forms were used in a transitional period and I believe it would misguide people if we were to have these forms here. If you or Redboywild would like to discuss this further, I believe it could be worth opening a discussion in the Beer Parlour. --Robbie SWE (talk) 17:24, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Some PD sources available in the internet

old dictionaries:

Maybe note: While dictionaries often just have mentionings of words in them, they can also have usages, both in the introduction part and in explanations of terms in the dictionary part.

• Andreas Clemens (WP), Kleines Walachisch-Deutsch und Deutsch-Walachisches Wörterbuch, Ofen, 1821: GB
  — in Cyrillic script with Romanisation
• Andreas Clemens, Wörterbüchlein Deutsch und Wallachisches – Vokabulariium nèmtschèsk schi roma͞enèsk [ВОКАБУЛА'РЇУМ НѢМЦѢ'СК ШИ' РОМѪНѢ'СК] (?) [modern: k=c, sch=și, a͞e=â, è=e, ii=?, tsch=? (nèmtschèsk now is nemțesc with ț = [t͡s]/[ʦ] not *nemtșesc or *nemcesc with [t͡ʃ])], Hermannstadt, 1822: GB
  — "
• Lesicon roma'nescu-la'tinescu-ungurescu-nemtescu - seu lexicon valachico-latino-hungarico-germanicum, Buda, 1825: GB
  — Romanian introduction in Cyrillic and Latin script; should have some grammar terms in Latin script with u (including adjectivu, adverbiu)
• Andreas Ißer (editor) [А. Iсeр = A. Iser], Walachisch-deutsches Wörterbuch — [Vocabular romănesc-nemțesk]. Kronstadt, 1850: GB
• G. A. Polysu, G. Baritz, J. G. Johann (editor), Romänisch-deutsches Wörterbuch — [Vocabular romăno-german], Kronstadt = [..], 1857: GB
  — in Cyrillic script, without u or ꙋ/ꙋ̆ at the end and with something like -ție instead of -tiune (in Cyrillic)
• Sab. Pop. Barcianu (WP), Vocabulariu romanu-nemtiescu – Romanisch-deutsches Wörterbuch [Romanian-German Dictionary]. Sibiiu = Hermannstadt 1868: GB
  — has -tiune and -u
• Sab. Pop. Barcianu & D. P. Barcianu, Dicționar român-germân și germân-român – Wörterbuch der romänischen und deutschen Sprache [Dictionary of the Romanian and German Language], Sibíiu = Hermannstadt, 1886: IA
  — has Romanian diacritics, -țiune and grammatical terms without -u (adjectiv, verb, yet adverbiu, and also articul, numěral)
  • Sab. Pop. Barcianu & D. P. Barcianu, Wörterbuch der deutschen und romänischen Sprache [Dictionary of the German and Romanian language] – Dicționar germân-român și român-germân, Sibíiu = Hermannstadt, 1888: IA (second part; incomplete)
• Sextil Pușcariu (WP), Sammlung Romanischer Elementarbücher. III. Reihe: Wörterbücher. I. Etymologisches Wörterbuch der rumänischen Sprache. 1, Heidelberg, 1905: IA, IA
  — with diacritics, but says it's in "phoentic transcription"
• Theochar Alexi (editor), Dicționarŭ portativŭ germano-romanŭ – Deutsch-rumänisches Taschen-Wörterbuch mit Leseregeln für die moderne rumänische Orthographie, Bucurescĭ = Bukarest, 1866: GB
  — has diacritics (including ŭ for a silent u) and -tiune (e.g. explicatiune)
  • Theochar Alexi, Dicționar româno-german – Rumänisch-Deutsches Wörterbuch, 2nd edition, Brașov (Brassó) = Kronstadt, 1906: IA
    — has grammatical terms without -u (yet has număral with ă) and has e.g. "adjurație, –iune, f."
• Ghiță Pop, Dicționar portativ român-germân și germân-român – Taschenwörterbuch der rumänischen und deutschen Sprache, 6th edition, Berlin-Schöneberg, 1911: IA (1st part, Romanian-German)
  — with -țiune and grammatical terms without -u (adjectiv, also adverb, articol, particip, numeral)
• Raoul de Pontbriant (WP), Dicțiunaru româno-francescu, Bucuresci, 1862: GB, GB
  — has Romanian diacritics, -țiune and grammatical terms with -u (adjectivu etc., and also articulu, and adverbu without i)
• Ion Costinescu, Vocabularu romano-francesu -- Lucratu dupe dicționarulŭ academiei francese dupe alŭ luĭ napoleone landais și alte Dicționare latine, italiane, etc., Bucuresci, 1870: GB
  — has diacritics including ț and ŭ (which should denote a silent u like substantivŭ as compromise between sustantivu and substantiv), yet capital letters might sometimes miss diacritics; it also has adiectivŭ (with i and not j) and adverbŭ
• A. T. Laurianu & J. C. Massimu (WP & WP), Glossariu care coprinde vorbele d'in limb'a romana, Bucuresci, 1871: GB
  — has -tione with o (esclamatione, relatione, suppositione) and grammatical terms with u (adjectivu, verbu, participiu and adverbiu); has limb'a (limb'a româna), limba (limba slavica), limbe (limbe romanice) and limbei (limbei romane) - maybe it's limb'a = limba, limbei = limbi, limba = limbă, limbe = limbii?
• A. T. Laurianu & J. C. Massimu (& Josefu Hodosiu & G. Baritiu), Dictionariulu limbei romane, Bucuresci, 1871/1873 & 1876: GB/GB/GB/GB [vol. I, A-H] / GB/GB (vol. I, A-H) & GB/GB (vol. II, I-Z)

old grammars and other books:

• [G. Vida], [Grammatică practică romano-franțozască ...]. Grammatica Romano-Gallica, 1833: GB
  — in Cyrillic script
• Fekete János (Negrutiu), Magyar-románnyelvtan. A tanuló ifiuság számára, Kolozsvártt, 1852: GB
  • Magyar román nyelvtan. A románul tanulók számára. (Második, átdolgozott kiadás.), Kolozsvártt, 1862: GB
    — p. 151ff. has Romanian text with -tiune and grammar terms with u (?)
• Tim. Cipariu (WP)
  • Elemente de limb'a romana dupa dialecte si monumente vechi, Blasiu, 1854 (MDCCCLIV): GB
    — has -tiune and -u (including prepusetiune and also adverbiu, participiu)
  • Compendiu de gramatec'a limbei romane, 4th edition, Sabiniu, 1865: GB
    — has -tiune and grammatical terms with u (including articlu, participiu, adverbiu)
  • Principia de limba si de scriptura, Blasiu, 1866 (MDCCCLXVI): GB
  • Grammatec'a limbei romane. Partea I. analitica, Bucuresci, 1869: GB/GB
    — has -tiune and grammatical terms with u
    • Grammatec'a limbei romane. Partea II. Sintetica, Bucuresci, 1877 (MDCCCLXXVII): GB-semifree (free in US, unfree in some other regions)/GB-semifree
• Savva Popovičĭ Barčianŭ [Ѕавва Поповічї Барчіанȣ̆] (?), Gramatică romăno-ǧermănă [ГРАМАТІКЪ РОМЪНО-ЏЕРМЪНЪ] (?), Sibiiŭ [СІБІІȢ̆] (?), 1855 [rather N or Ν instead of Н and n instead of н in Cyrillic, also not non-Cyrillic Ȣ̆ and ȣ̆ but something similar; ǧ (which sometimes represents [d͡ʒ]) and č (which sometimes represents [t͡ʃ]) used for better translatition of the Cryllic as Г=g, Џ=ǧ, ч=č)]: GB
  — in Cyrillic script
• I. K. Massimu, Elemente de Ghrammatiкa Rumîna. A teĭa editziune, Bucureshtĭ, 1856: GB
  — has -tziune (e.g. propositziune) and ŭ (e.g. verbŭ and with article verbulŭ), but is in Cyrillic or Cyrillic-Latin as it has for example к. Is this a very rare orthography or was it more common?
• I. Popescu, Organu pedagogicu pentru educatiune si instructiune, Sabiiu, 1863 GB
  — has some diacritics, -tiune, and grammatical terms with u (including adverbu, articulu)
• O. Spinazzola, Grammatica elementare a limbei italiane - Seguita da un compendio di grammatica rumena, Bucurescĭ, 1863: GB
  — has ŭ and -ziune (with German z = IPA [ʦ] = Romanian ț?); Daco-Romanian or something else?
• G. J. Munteanu, Gramatic'a latina. Partea formaria pentru classile I. si II. gimnasiali inferiori. Editiunea prima [German title at GB, probably from a German library: Lateinische Grammatik. Formenlehre für die 1. und 2. Gymnasialklasse], Brasiovu, 1863: GB
  — has -tiune (terminatiune which looks like English termination, that is ending) and grammatical terms with u (adjectivu, verbu, and also adverbu)
• V. Romanu (editor), Amiculu scólei fóia pentru naintarea invetiamentului a educatiunei la Romani. Anulu IV. 1863, Sibiiu, 1863: GB
  • Visarionu Romanu (editor), Amiculu scólei scriere pedagogico-didactica pentru parinti, educatori, invetiatori si toti barbatii de scóla. Anulu VI. 1865, Sibiiu, 1865: GB
    — has grammatical terms with u (on p. 216 substantivu, with article substantivulu, verbulu)
• Titu Maiorescu, Despre scrierea limbei rumăne, Iassi, 1866: GB
  — has -țiune and some grammar terms with u
• Octaviu Baritiu, Gramatec'a limbei magiare pentru clasile gimnasiali inferiori, Clusiu, 1866: GB
  — has grammar terms with u (verbu, substantivu, also adiectivu, adverbiu)
• G. Eustațiŭ Ciocanilli, Dialogi româno-francesi sau modulu d'a studia cu inlesnire limba francesǎ. [...]. Editiunea VI, Bucuresci, 1870: GB
  — has grammar terms with u (including adverbiu, but adiectivu without j)
• Ladislau Nagy, Manualu de conducere instructiunea limbei materne pentru clas'a I. si II. a scoleloru poporali [German title at GB, probably from a German library: Handbuch zur Erlernung der Muttersprache für die 1. und 2. Classe der Volksschulen], Bud'a, 1872: GB
  — has -tiune and grammatical terms with u (adjectivu, verbu, and also articlu)
• Josefu Tempea, Stilistic'a limbei romane, Sabiiu, 1876: GB
  — has -tiune and grammatical terms with u (adjectivu, verbu)
• Alexandru Philippide, Gramatică elementară a limbiĭ romîne, Iașĭ, 1897: GB-semifree
  — has adiectiv without u and j; GB (Curs practic și gradat de gramatica Românǎ) and GB (Analele Academiei Romane) could have it too, thus it could be am attestable rare and possible obsolete alternative form
• Zaharia Kolumbu, Q. Horatiu Flacu comentatŭ în limba romana. Cartea I: GB
  — with -tiune and -țiune (e.g. constructiunea on p.2 and construcțiunea on p.3), and with ŭ (e.g. verbŭ on p.81)

non-Romanian Romanian grammars:

• Andreas Clemens, Walachische Sprachlehre für Deutsche, nebst einem kleinen Walachisch-Deutsch und Deutsch-Walachischen Wörterbuche, Ofen, 1821: GB; Hermannstadt & Kronstadt & Ofen, 1823: GB
  — "Walachian" in Cyrillic script and in the beginning with Romanisation
• Grammatica Daco-Romana sive Valachica Latinitate donata, aucta, ac in hunc ordinem redacta opera et studio Joannis Alexi, Vienna, 1826: GB
• A. Trebonius Laurianus (WP), Tentamen criticum in originem, derivationem et formam linguae romanae in utraque Dacia vigentis vulgo valachicae, Vienna, 1840: GB/GB/GB
• Andreas Iszer, Walachische Sprachlehre für Deutsche, Kronstadt, 1846: GB — "Walachian" in Cyrillic script and in the beginning with Romanisation; gives translations of grammatical terms
• Pascutiu Dienes, Román nyelvtan [German title at GB: Rumänische Grammatik, that is Romanian Grammar], Nagy-várad, 1855: GB
• Sabbas Popovici Barcianu, Theoretisch-practische Grammatik der romänischen Sprache. Zum Schul- und Selbstgebrauche, Hermannstadt, 1858: GB
  — mentions two Cyrillic scripts and a Romanisation
  • ", Theoretisch-practische Grammatik der romänischen Sprache. Zum Schul- und Selbstgebrauch, 2nd edition, Hermannstadt, 1862: GB
    — "; mentions Romanian grammatical terms in Cyrillic and Latin script
  • ", Theoretisch-practische Grammatik der romänischen Sprache. Zum Schul- und Selbstgebrauche, 3rd edition, Hermannstadt, 1871: GB
    — mentions Romanian grammatical terms in Latin script
• Aron Pumnul (WP), Grammatik der rumänischen Sprache für Mittelschulen, Wien, 1864: GB
  — mentions three scripts, old Cyrillic, new Cyrillic and Latin, and uses some other Latin characters (e.g. æ), but also mentions different Latin spellings (e.g. æ is said to became a, e or o). In a way he implays that -tiune was then pronounced differently from modern -țiune: "c̄   tsch [i.e. [t͡ʃ] in IPA]" and "rugatiune (lat. rogatione), statt: rugæc̄une, Gebet" - "[others use:] rugatiune (Latin rogatione), instead of: rugæc̄une, prayer"
• H. Tiktin (WP), Sammlung romanischer Elementarbücher. I. Reihe: Grammatiken. 6. Rumänisches Elementarbuch, Heidelberg, 1905: IA, IA

I also searched for English books but didn't find any. -80.133.109.90 14:15, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the research! Redboywild (talk) 13:52, 3 July 2017 (UTC)