Talk:তাই

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Sylheti entries

@AryamanA Sylheti mentions are being removed by User:Shohure Jagoron. Vocabulary of Sylheti, Chittagonian, Old Bengali etc are being inserted under "Bengali" by this user and User:Sylotoid. Msasag (talk) 10:29, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Other concerns include: Standard Bengali forms are just being mentioned as "vowel harmonized" by this user. And Shadhu Bengali, which is a modified ancestral form no longer spoken is included under Bengali. I think it belongs to Middle Bengali category, or its own separate category. Msasag (talk) 10:54, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

তাই is common to many dialects apart from sylheti. Additionally, there is no issue in including vowel harmonized variants, and or including sadhu, which still sees use, just like classical persian is included in persian. To claim that standard bengali is completely vowel harmonised is willfully ignorant of how the bengali language works in this regards and seems like an attempt to intentionally separate Standard Bengali from other dialects based on false standards. Shohure Jagoron (talk) 23:15, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

None of my contributions are exclusive to dialects you have mentioned and always have footing in 'mainstream' or 'undisputed' regions of Vaṅga-speaking East Bengal as well, I can even provide proof from Shahidullah if you really are so inclined. Dialectal vocabulary is shown to have a marked presence on Wiktionary, so I fail to see the issue here. Furthermore, I have always appropriately put Old Bengali words in Old Bengali sections as far as I am aware. Several Standard Bengali words are indeed simply vowel-harmonised variants of earlier forms, which are always still standard dictionary words themselves. It is ignorant to claim that such forms are not just variants, as this feature is not even obligatory. These vowel-harmonised forms are only natively used by speakers of (East) Rāṛha dialects (perhaps @Inqilābī can confirm and elaborate) and some speakers of West Vaṅga dialects, and scarcely ever see use in most of Bangladesh (and other Bengali speaking regions for that matter), including in standard speech, even in education. Failure to accept these variants for what they really are appears to be an imposition of one dialect or dialect group as superior over all others, which certainly is not the case. User:Shohure Jagoron phrased it better than I could. Sadhubhasha's usage declined maybe less than half a century ago, which is still very well into the modern Bengali period, and is still understood by practically all Bengali speakers despite that. In fact, in numerous cases Vaṅga can be described to resemble Sadhubhasha more than it does the modern East Rāṛha-based standard, but I digress. Sylotoid (talk) 02:16, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

@Shohure Jagoron "tai" may exist in some Bengali "dialects". But what is the point to remove Sylheti mentions? And stop treating Sylheti as a Bengali dialect. It is a separate language and there has been discussions on it. Don't add Sylheti, Chittagonian and Kamtapuri entries in Bengali. They have their own space. And vowel harmony is just a type of sound change. It can happen to any language, it did happen to other dialects of Bengali and closely related languages. Don't call standard Bengali just as "vowel harmonized", call it "Standard Bengali". Same goes for Shadhu Bengali. But I prefer to add Shadhu under Middle Bengali because it is a modified version of Middle Bengali that doesn't belong to modern Bengali period, it wasn't a spoken language in modern Bengali period. Msasag (talk) 15:13, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Once again, that is irrelevant, tai exists in many dialects in bengali, and wiktionary welcomes dialectical words. And I guess I have to repeat myself, Standard Bengali is only partially harmonised, there are multiple words in standard bengali that are not, but where western colloquialisms are common, these are the one’s that are “harmonised” and their non-harmonised forms are generally preferred and are themselves standard, this is evident in any Bengali dictionary, one example is the word “ভিজা”, which is the standard and preferred word while “ভেজা” and “ভিজে” are just colloquialisms from the western dialect that have also become common, relegating standard Bengali to one rule is an extreme misunderstanding of how the language works and is frankly quite dismissive and seems to sound like its from a desire to encroach on diversity. Understating the variety in the Standard dialect does you no good. Wiktionary does not explicitly say that something has to be spoken to be modern, Shadhu may not be spoken but is certainly modern and used often in the modern day and claiming that it isn't is a gross misrepresentation of Modern Bengali literature, and as you say, “period”. That’s like saying one standardised written register of one language isn’t spoken and should therefore not be included in it, it’s completely absurd, there are several forms in even modern chalita that have been antiquated by some speakers and not others, this doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be included. Shohure Jagoron (talk) 04:42, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

@Shohure Jagoron Why do you think Sylheti is "irrelevant"? Msasag (talk) 14:04, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

I didn’t say it Sylheti was irrelevant, I said the fact that it exists in sylheti is irrelevant to its existence in other dialects of bengali, when we add words in hindi, we don’t judge them by whether they are in awadhi or not, we just add them if they are used. Just like how we don’t discard words in English that are shared in Scots. Shohure Jagoron (talk) 03:12, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

@Shohure Jagoron My question is, why did you remove Sylheti mentions? Sylheti isn't a dialect of Bengali, it's a separate language. Don't remove Sylheti.Msasag (talk) 04:41, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Another question, since you're removing Standard Bengali mentions as well by calling them non standard optional vowel harmonized forms. Will you treat other "vowel harmonized" forms in the same way? Like "tumi korle", "tumi korbe", eshe, die etc these forms are "vowel harmonized" too. Their non "vowel harmonized" forms will be: tumi korila, tumi koriba, ashia, dia which were used in ancestors. So will you also discard these since they are "vowel harmonized" and supposed to be irrelevant to you? Standard Bengali is a thing. Indian standard Bengali is not different from the spoken one in Nadia-Kolkata region. Bangladeshi may be a mixture. At least don't remove those when mentioned with Indian languages. Msasag (talk) 04:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I didn’t claim vowel harmonisation doesn’t exist, I merely said it isn’t mandatory outside some grammatical forms, and is quite optional at that. Also, your comparison is a comparison of Shadhu and Chalita, not “variations”, a more apt comparison would be দিখলাম and দেখলেম, the former isn’t harmonised at all and is officially the standard, the latter is a spoken variant, most common in Urban West Bengal, so to claim unharmonised forms can’t exist is erroneous. Unlike with nouns and adjectives, these are codified standard Bengali rules, as for stuff like তিতা and তেতো, the latter is optional while the former is the standard, and is recognized in the dictionary, not to mention, তিতা is used more in standard bengali than is তেতো, refusing to recognize that the latter is a variation is willfully ignorant. The Samsad dictionary itself lists the former as the general form and the latter as the “কথ্য” form, this is not a debated topic. Bangladeshi standard Bengali is not a mixture, its regular Standard Bengali, the same as in India, and once again, vowel harmony is optional in these cases, and is typically more common among Indian speakers, not exclusive. @Inqilābī could probably testify to that. It isn’t in your place to limit the standard when the standard accepts these forms and these forms are often more popular than the non-harmonised forms. Take for example হিসাব and হিসেব, it is absurd to claim one is more standard than the other, হিসাব is clearly the general spelling while হিসেব is a common harmonised variant, hence হিসাববিজ্ঞান and not হিসেববিজ্ঞান, being the official name used by institutions across Bangladesh and West Bengal. @sylotoid himself highlighted how this feature isn’t obligatory, I truly do not understand what about the variation that you oppose, this is a quite established feature in Bengali. Shohure Jagoron (talk) 13:20, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

@Shohure Jagoron You didn't answer my first question. Msasag (talk) 11:25, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

I hope you don't ignore it this time. And another thing. In Standard Bengali, which is Cholito Bangla, as spoken in Nadia-Kolkata region, the iCa > iCe, eCo is quite prominent. This dia > die, korila > korle etc are results of vowel harmony and the former forms aren't considered variations, but Shadhu. Seems your "Standard Bengali" is mixture of Shadhu and Cholito. Though as an Indian my view of Standard Bengali is the Indian one. When you say something is or isn't used (commonly), I check that by asking native speakers. I asked a native speaker of Indian Standard Bengali, they said they use teto, not tita because they speak Indian Standard Bengali. When you tell me something, I highly doubt those because many of them are lies. And once again reminding you about my first question. Msasag (talk) 12:02, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

As for your first question, I simply replaced them with pages in languages that did exist, not those that didn’t, if you wish to make a page, go ahead. I myself am a native speaker of standard bengali… and you literally have no proof that they are lies, even the dictionary lists them as standard spellings, the fact that you deny this makes me think that you are making up this “friend” of yours because these are common variants. If you think that is correct, you do realise that terms like https://bn.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/হিসাববিজ্ঞান and করলাম would not exist right? I don’t really understand what your intentions of lying are. Vowel Harmony is a common phenomenon and it is only optional in most nouns and Adjectives. You seem to disregard all variations in standard bengali for no reason. Additionally I never said one variant is not common, I merely said that the non-harmonised forms are more common at times (certainly for তিতা) and equally standard. Shohure Jagoron (talk) 12:18, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

https://bn.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/হিসাববিজ্ঞান is the correct link, for some reason my former link does not work Shohure Jagoron (talk) 12:21, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Additionally if your logic were sound, words like মিথ্যা মিতা ছিটা ঢিলা গিলা etc. would cease to exist in the Chalita standard. I strongly doubt any Native Bengali told you these don’t exist in Standard Bengali since these are such common forms. And if your hypothetical Bangladesh-India divide existed, then why would you still be making these erroneous arguments? Would one form have more precedence over the other? Also if you doubt my previous statements where i said the words were defined as কথ্য, here https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/biswas-bangala_query.py?qs=মিছা&searchhws=yes&matchtype=default , this is the proof that you call lies without any basis.

Oh and another thing, Chalita is based on the dialect of Shantipur, Nadia, not Nadia-Calcutta, Calcuttan speech is markedly different from Shantipur Bengali, and one of these is the complete use of Vowel Harmony as well as Vowel Harmony, rendering spoken forms like পহুরি from পহরি, পিঁপড়ে from পিঁপড়া and বিটী from বেটী, calling them the same is a display of ignorance of the dialectical diversity in the Eastern Rarh region, mind you, Nadia is on the border of Bangladesh and part of greater Nadia is in Bangladesh, hence why non-harmonised forms are quite common in Standard Bengali as are harmonised forms. Shohure Jagoron (talk) 12:45, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

on the word পহুরি I meant vowel heightening, apologies for any misunderstanding. Shohure Jagoron (talk) 23:31, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

@Shohure Jagoron You should not remove those not having a page. This is Wiktionary. A lot of words added here don't have a page. You can see them frequently with dead and extinct languages which are used as ancestors. So don't remove those. And with Indian languages, it's better to highlight the Indian Bengali standard forms than the Bangladeshi ones. Msasag (talk) 06:52, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok then, but once again the Bangladeshi and Indian standards are not different, they’re exactly the same, the samsad dictionary which is the most commonly used Bengali dictionary in India recognises these forms as standard and the others as কথ্য, so I don’t really see the issue. Also even if they were somehow different, there’s no reason one would have more precedence over the other. (samsad calling মিছে a কথ্য form of মিছা: https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app_test/biswas-bangala_query.py?qs=মিছে&searchhws=yes&matchtype=default ) Shohure Jagoron (talk) 05:54, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

@Shohure Jagoron Btw I doubt that you're a Standard Bengali speaker. But anyways, there's a difference between the two standards. You can see how some websites, keyboards differentiate them because of that. Don't remove the forms added. Msasag (talk) 17:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I have no idea why you are doubting that I speak Standard Bengali, it seems quite unfounded and the accusation is becoming quite insulting. And keyboards don’t dictate what is and isn’t a standard, there are at least 5 different Bengali Keyboards, they don’t neccisate a separate standard. You have literally no basis of calling them separate when the dictionaries of both India and Bangladesh themselves list both. I have not removed any Bengali forms, I have merely corrected them to the primary standard form over variants of it. You are now making up the claim that there are two Standards of Bengali, do you have any sources for this? Shohure Jagoron (talk) 07:36, 3 August 2021 (UTC)