Talk:plebes

plebes

Dictionaries (except digitalised L&S with "archaic plēbēs (‡ plēbis), is and ĕi") give the genitives -ēī or -eī and -ī.

• -ēī is an older form which fits better to an old word, -eī is a younger form which fits better to Classical Latin.
• -ī as genitive could belong to the second declension (unlikely), third declension (unlikely as third declension genitives in -ī are uncommon and often restricted to foreign proper nouns) or fifth declension (as an old genitive form).
  -ī as a dative form could belong to the third declension or maybe fifth declension. A third delcension dative -i however could belong to both plebs and plebes as does a genitive -is. A fifth declension dative -i however could be unattested (despite genitive -i and genitive and dative -e).
• Some dictionaries note that a nominative plebis does occur in old manuscripts. This should be third declension, but would belong to another lemma.

Possible cites:

• "creatio magistratuum, iudicia populi, iussa vetita cum suffragio cosciscentur, suffragia optumatibus/optimatibus nota, plebi libera sunto" Cic. Leg. 3, [3,] 10
  "Optimatibus nota, plebi libera sunto" Cic. Leg. 3, [17,] 38
  Gaffiot understands the latter as genitive. In a book it was noted that the former is commonly understood as dative and that genitive doesn't make sense. As the sentences are similar, they could have have the same form in it. (And maybe Gaffiot is wrong here?)
• "plebes in hoc regi antistat loco, licet Lacrumare plebi, regi honeste non licet" Enn. ap. Hier. Epit. Nep. p. 590 Mign. (Trag. v. 271 Vahl.) = Ennius ap. Hieron. epist. Nepot.
  This should be dative (like regi is dative of rex), and could belong to both third or fifth declension.
• "tribunus plebei" Liv. II, 33 in. & 64 extr. III, 65; Cic. ad Divers. X, 16;
  "tribunus plebi" Liv. III, 65 in. VI, 11 & 39 and more often.
  In an old dictionary (according to google by Scheller from 1804 or 1805 but this could be wrong) the question is asked if plebi is genitive or dative, that is if it's "tribune of the people" or "tribune to the people". The dictionary concludes that plebei is both genitive and dative and that plebi in "tribunus plebi" is genitive.
  Another book also mentions a genitive "tribunus plebis" and concludes that plebis (third declension genitive) and plebi are in the same case. Hence plebi would be genitive and should belong to the fifth declension. As genitive this is also mentioned in at least two grammars (by Ferdinand Schultz of 1865 and by William Gardner Hale &Carl Darling Buck of 1903/1966).

If there is no real proof for either form or interpretation (third declension with gen. -is, dat. -i; fifth declension with gen. -i), maybe both forms should be mentioned. -80.133.100.65 00:07, 15 July 2017 (UTC)