Talk:toer
West Frisian etymology[edit]
@Leasnam Do you have any ideas about the etymology of toer? Is it from Old Frisian? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:29, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Lingo Bingo Dingo, Old Frisian only has turn (> East Frisian torn > Saterland Frisian Touden, Tudden). Old West Frisian has tōr (> West Frisian toer), so I suppose we could reconstruct an Old Frisian *tor for it ? Leasnam (talk) 17:46, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Leasnam I don't know enough about the older languages to judge, but couldn't it be explained as coming from e.g. Old French?
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:04, 17 March 2018 (UTC)- Well, possibly. However, OWF tōr aligns closely with Middle Dutch torre, turre, Old English tor, torr, Old High German turri, turra, which seems to represent an earlier WGmc borrowing directly from Latin. Additionally, these may all be independent borrowings from Latin into each respective language--it's difficult to tell. It's possible, though, that it could have come from Old French tour, tur, likely through an intermediary language, like Dutch. Indeed, Old English has both forms: Old English tor, torr (> English tor) borrowed earlier from Latin turrem/turris, and a later borrowing (Old English tūr>English tower) from Old French. It's puzzling why OWF tōr would have a different vowel (ō) and not ū in this case, but this is not necessarily a roadblock. And this [[1]] is no help, as it only lists a comparison of related terms in similar languages. If the Datering is correct in saying this term entered the language in 1815 forward, then perhaps it is a borrowing from French--Modern French ! Leasnam (talk) 15:51, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- The dating of the WFT isn't useful, because it only relates to West Frisian after 1800. And with respect to close relations to Old/Middle Dutch I'm made wary by the fact that the forms without -n are more common in Southern dialects (see MNW and ONW) whereas Hollandic generally has -n.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:39, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
- The dating of the WFT isn't useful, because it only relates to West Frisian after 1800. And with respect to close relations to Old/Middle Dutch I'm made wary by the fact that the forms without -n are more common in Southern dialects (see MNW and ONW) whereas Hollandic generally has -n.
- Well, possibly. However, OWF tōr aligns closely with Middle Dutch torre, turre, Old English tor, torr, Old High German turri, turra, which seems to represent an earlier WGmc borrowing directly from Latin. Additionally, these may all be independent borrowings from Latin into each respective language--it's difficult to tell. It's possible, though, that it could have come from Old French tour, tur, likely through an intermediary language, like Dutch. Indeed, Old English has both forms: Old English tor, torr (> English tor) borrowed earlier from Latin turrem/turris, and a later borrowing (Old English tūr>English tower) from Old French. It's puzzling why OWF tōr would have a different vowel (ō) and not ū in this case, but this is not necessarily a roadblock. And this [[1]] is no help, as it only lists a comparison of related terms in similar languages. If the Datering is correct in saying this term entered the language in 1815 forward, then perhaps it is a borrowing from French--Modern French ! Leasnam (talk) 15:51, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Leasnam I don't know enough about the older languages to judge, but couldn't it be explained as coming from e.g. Old French?
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This concerns two senses given for Dutch toer :
They are not found at the Dutch Wiktionary. Conversely, the sense “difficult task” listed over there is missing here. It conceivably derives from the calque krachttoer rather than the latter being derived from toer, suggested here by listing it under Derived terms. The claimed sense of “prank, stunt”, if attestable, may in fact correspond to a somewhat ironic use of a sense “trick” also found in French tour ; compare the idiom to pull a trick, in which the “trick” can stand for a prank. --Lambiam 05:54, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Pinging @Lingo Bingo Dingo, Morgengave, Rua. --Lambiam 07:39, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Lambiam These meanings are colloquial Belgian-Dutch; for example in the common phrases "zotte toeren", "toeren uithalen", "een toer lappen" and "dat zijn nogal toeren". Depending on the context, they can somewhat approximate "whim, urge" and "stunt, prank", even though I don't find that these are perfect translations. I suppose "toer" means a "strange and remarkable action", which can be both emotional ("whim, urge") as physical ("prank, stunt") depending on the context. Morgengave (talk) 10:29, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- In Netherlands Dutch (hele/rare/vreemde/halsbrekende) toeren uithalen is also attestable. google books:hele toeren google books:halsbrekende toeren google books:rare toeren google books:vreemde toeren I'd associate hele toeren with going above and beyond, halsbrekende toeren with capers and dangerous stunts and vreemde/rare toeren with odd movements or odd behaviour. Also consider the WNT entry. The emotional meaning seems less present in Netherlands Dutch according to my experience; the WNT agrees with that.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:42, 9 October 2021 (UTC)- I think een hele toer means something like “a tour de force”, “quite a feat”, not a capricious action – corresponding to the currently missing sense of “difficult task”. If the oddness or rashness of actions referred to as toeren is almost always attributively specified (zotte/rare/vreemde/halsbrekende), it would appear that the combinations derives that sense from their attributive components, and not from the sense of the noun itself. We would not define a sense “weird stuff” for gedoe because of its use in the collocation raar gedoe. The spectrum of senses of the bare noun seems to coincide largely with that of “trick.” --Lambiam 16:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- In Belgian-Dutch, the attributive specification is common but not needed. "Dat zijn nogal toeren" f.e. is a quite common phrase and carries the sense of "strangeness" and "remarkableness". And does not coincide with "trick". Morgengave (talk) 16:44, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- The online Vlaams Woordenboek cites the online Van Dale as labelling this as Belgian Dutch. I've added the label (Belgium) to these senses. --Lambiam 14:56, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
- In Belgian-Dutch, the attributive specification is common but not needed. "Dat zijn nogal toeren" f.e. is a quite common phrase and carries the sense of "strangeness" and "remarkableness". And does not coincide with "trick". Morgengave (talk) 16:44, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think een hele toer means something like “a tour de force”, “quite a feat”, not a capricious action – corresponding to the currently missing sense of “difficult task”. If the oddness or rashness of actions referred to as toeren is almost always attributively specified (zotte/rare/vreemde/halsbrekende), it would appear that the combinations derives that sense from their attributive components, and not from the sense of the noun itself. We would not define a sense “weird stuff” for gedoe because of its use in the collocation raar gedoe. The spectrum of senses of the bare noun seems to coincide largely with that of “trick.” --Lambiam 16:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Breton[edit]
Senses 1st. and 2nd. in roofer in English? Flāvidus (talk) 16:31, 19 November 2022 (UTC)