Wiktionary talk:About Slovincian

Question marks in ==Spelling== section mean that I can't make out what those letters represent on page II of Lorentz's book. I think that there may be higher-quality images available for download somewhere here, but I haven't checked. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:44, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Additional Letter used by Lorentz: ø

I note in the Lorentz source "ø" is used in few proper names. For example, the name August is Ø·ʉ̯γʉst (page 1507). This is in contrast to the month which is: aɵ̯γʉ̇́st (page 4). I can include this letter with its page number. I assume it would go after "o" and "ɵ" in the list. ElkandAcquerne (talk) 14:49, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@ElkandAcquerne Go for it, but I assume this is just /ø/ and would be represented with <ö> by Sobierasjki. Vininn126 (talk) 15:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@Vininn126| I have just realized something from the Lorentz source. On page 738 of Lorentz, is the header letter "ø" and not "ɵ"? I noticed the bar goes at a slight diagonal. This letter also only has two words. Therefore no words actually start with "ɵ" and a few loanwords do start with "ø". Perhaps "ø" and "ɵ" had a phonetic difference? I am checking words that used the letter "ꬻ" in Lorentz. I assume they were a velar nasal? ElkandAcquerne (talk) 16:15, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@ElkandAcquerne Is this his dictionary or grammar? ø and ɵ where likely phonetic but not phonemic. ꬻ only occurred before velars and is phonetic, not phonemic. Vininn126 (talk) 16:18, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@Vininn126| I am referencing the dictionary. It is at times difficult to read the digital version. I am pretty sure that the letter header is indeed "ø". I believe then Lorentz uses both "ø" and "ɵ". I wish I had access to the original book form to know for sure. ElkandAcquerne (talk) 16:33, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@ElkandAcquerne I'm relatively certain he is using this as a variant of ɵ. But again, as I've said, we're not beholden to his transcription. Vininn126 (talk) 16:36, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Looking at Lorentz again, I am no pretty sure it is "ɵ" on page 738 and "ø" on page 1507. The two letter headers are different. ElkandAcquerne (talk) 13:42, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

@ElkandAcquerne This is all likely to change soon anyway. I went to the national library and scanned "The extinct East-Slovincian Kluki-dialect Phonology and morphology", which gives a much more phonemic analysis. We can craft an orthography based on that analysis, and most of Lorentz's letters will likely disappear. Vininn126 (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

New transcription system

@Thadh @Sławobóg @Benwing2

I recently went to the library and read through The Extinct East-Slovincian Kluki-dialect: Phonology and Morphology. He manages to figure out what is phonemic and what is phonetic in Lorentz's system, including empirically showing that tone is not a feature in Slovincian. On pages 158-165 he gives a list of phonemes, archiphonemes, etc. He considers stressed vowels to be their own phoneme, just for the record (as stress is indeed phonemic in Slovincian).

I have also fashioned a Google Doc with how to convert Lorentz to a phonemic system, but I think it might be better to also work from the list of phonemes and their phonetic realizations. I would like to base a new transcription system on this list. I would like y'all's input. I have a scan of the pages in question. My question is, how can I best share with y'all the list so we can create a better transcription system? Vininn126 (talk) 17:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Thadh @Sławobóg @Benwing2 Sorry for the double ping, but I figured I'd at least present what I have so far. I based this orthography on Kashubian orthography as I believe it makes sense to use something the native speakers might have actually used and then I used a few of Lorentz's letters to fill in the gaps. I know Sławobóg is not a fan of Polish-like digraphs and would prefer probably carons. What do you two thing?

Orthography
Any vowels marked with an acute can be marked with accent in the pronunciation - also headword?
Breve and macron should be removed automatically.
Etymological voicing should be retained, so words can end with <b>, <d>, etc. The same is true in clusters.

/á/, /á̆/, /a/, /ă/, /ā/ - <a>
/ą́/, /ą/ - <ą>
/áɩ/, /aɩ/ - <aj>
/áu/, /au/ - <au>
/ɛ́/, /ɛ̆́/, /ɛ/ - <e>
/ɛ́ɩ/, /ɛɩ/ - <ej>
/ə́/, /ə/ - <ë>
/ə́ɩ/, /əɩ/ - <ëj>
/ɔ́/, /ɔ/, /ɔ̆́/, /ɔ̆/ - <o>
/ɔɩ/ - <oj>
/ó/, /o/ - <ó>
/ǫ́/, /ǫ/ - <ǫ>
/óɩ/- <ój>
/ɩ́/, /ɩ̆́/, /ɩ/, /ɩ̆/ - <ï> or <y>?
/í/, /i/ - /i/
/íɩ/, /iɩ/ - <ij>
/íɛ/ - <ie>?
/é/, /e/ - <é>
/éɩ/, /eɩ/ -<éj>
/ɵ́/, /ɵ/ - <ɵ>
/ɵ́y/, /ɵý/, /ɵy/ - <ɵʉ>
/ɵ́ɩ/, /ɵɩ́/, /ɵɩ/ - <ɵj>
/ý/, /y̆́/, /y/, /y̆/ - <ʉ>
/ýɩ/, /yɩ/ - <ʉj>
/ǘ/, /ü/ - <ü>
/ǘɩ/ - <üj>
/ŭ́/, /ŭ/ - <u>
/yɛ́ɩ/, /yɛɩ/ - <ʉej>
/p/ - <p>
/b/ - <b>
/f/ - <f>
/v/ - <w>
/t/ - <t>
/d/ - <d>
/k/ - <k>
/ɡ/ - <g>
/x/ - <ch>
/ɣ/ - <gh>
/s/ - <s>
/z/ - <z>
/m/ - <m>
/n/ - <n>
/l/ - <l>
/r/ - <r>
/ř/ - <rz>
/š/- <sz>
/ž/ - ż
/j/ - <j>
/h/ - <h>
/t͡s/ - <c>
/d͡z/ - <dz>
/t͡ʃ/ - <cz>
/d͡ʒ/ - <dż>
/nj/ - <ń>

Vininn126 (talk) 10:44, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

One major difference is that /j/ would always be written as <j>, whereas in Kashubian "soft" consonants are like Polish and use <iV>. If we adopted that, then we'd have to come up with a different way to write /íɛ/. Vininn126 (talk) 11:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@Vininn126 I think the path of least resistance is to use Lorentz's own orthography as much as possible, just dropping the non-phonemic accents and coalescing cases where two symbols indicate the same vowel. That would mean for example using <ɔ> in place of your <o> and using <o> in place of your <ó>. Benwing2 (talk) 14:04, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2 That could be one solution, but I'm not sure it's the best, because each material has its own transcription. I have also just heard from someone who translated some material that they used a "neoclassical orthography". Vininn126 (talk) 15:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@Vininn126 I think it's better to use something existing than make up our own, if there's a choice. Benwing2 (talk) 16:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2 I agree. I'll find out more about what this other system is. Part of the issue of course is most systems that exist are phonetic systems based on IPA or the Slavistic Alphabet, etc. Vininn126 (talk) 16:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2 @Sławobóg @Thadh I have spoken with Macéj Bańdur, who has provided me with a PDF for an alternative Kashubian orthography that includes northern dialects. What's more is that Szymon Jancen created a transcription of Lorentz's texts using a similar system, with two extra letters. So there is precedent. Vininn126 (talk) 12:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I also messaged Szëmón Jancen, who has worked with Macéj Bańdur and is working on another book for Slovincian. He also prefers a system based on Kashubian. So I will make a different, related proposal, show them, and then present it here. I'll also propose a way to convert Lorentz's words to this system. Vininn126 (talk) 15:43, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Modules

@Benwing2 w:User:Vininn126/sandbox#Nouns There's still a lot of work to do, and I have to double check, but I'm curious - Do you think there's enough information here we could potentially make a noun declension module? Vininn126 (talk) 09:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Actually, @Benwing2, I've written most of the article (w:User:Vininn126/sandbox) at this point. Using this new orthography isn't as difficult as I imagined. There is only one situation where there is mild difficulty, and I wanted your input. /i̯ɛ/, /ɛ/ (written ê, e) sound like /ə/ (written ë) when unstressed at the end of the word as an archiphoneme. As a result you have some morphological suffixed written -ê when stressed, but -ë when unstressed. I decided for many cases to instead use -ê even word finally, for example for the first feminine paradigm, the stressed nominative/accusative dual shows that I changed a phonetic schwa to this character. I was thinking, would it make sense to do this for a few cases in for example, the masculine nominative plural? It could be predicted mostly on the letter preceding the declension. What do you think?

Also , I don't think we're going to need {{{1}}} for Slovincian anymore - only stress ended up being phonemic from those processes, and I think we can probably? get away with just writing it in an IPA module.

@Sławobóg is still checking it and I'm also going to have others check this article before publishing, so there will be some time before we convert to the new orthography (and at the same time, remove the parameter). {{{1}}} of course should still be used for the regular inputs for the other Lechitic languages; however, it might be useful to have an optional {{{head}}} parameter (though I think that's already implemented?) for a few loanphonemes, we can mark some short vowels with a breve, but I don't think this should be in the pagename. Vininn126 (talk) 19:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2 Sorry for the third ping, but I've revised w:Slovincian language and published w:Slovincian grammar. In the following week I would like to convert to the new orthogarphy, and to do that we need to get rid of {{{1}}} for Lorentz's spelling. Can you implement that? Vininn126 (talk) 17:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I managed to figure it out... Vininn126 (talk) 16:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

@Vininn126 Apologies for not responding sooner. So many pings from lots of people ... do you still need my input on the issue you mentioned above about /i̯ɛ/, /ɛ/ sounding like /ə/ at the end of a word? If so can you clarify what you're asking? Are you asking for whether to use ê in place of ë everywhere at the end of a word even though it's pronounced like a schwa? Benwing2 (talk) 02:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2 I've seen a lot happening lately! I believe I have it figured out when to use with which ending, and I believe I even potentially have an IPA module that can handle it (I'm not the best with code but it at least works). I've also written up a guide on how to convert from Lorentz to the orthography. This is a low priority, but it'd be cool if after you've finished the recent GP tasks and also once we're done with the Polish/Kashubian stuff to potentially also make some modules for this. But I still need to clean up the lemmas now that I've moved them and whatnot. Vininn126 (talk) 05:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)