Wiktionary talk:About Khanty

RFM discussion: November 2014–June 2023

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Khanty words with /ɬ/

Requesting a move of a dozen Khanty words:

• вәԓ (wəł) → вәӆ
• вәԓты (wəłty) → вәӆты
• нивӑԓмит (niwăłmit) → нивӑӆмит
• нивԓ (niwł) → нивӆ
• няԓ (njał) → няӆ
• няԓмит (njałmit) → няӆмит
• оԓӑӈмит (ołăṇmit) → оӆӑӈмит
• пӑԓ (păł) → пӑӆ
• хәԓмит (həłmit) → хәӆмит
• хәԓум (həłum) → хәӆум
• ԓапӑт (łapăt) → ӆапӑт
• ԓапӑтмит (łapătmit) → ӆапӑтмит

These have /ɬ/, which is however written ӆ and not ԓ (this is instead, I believe, /ɭ/). Quite a few current entries are sourced from a dictionary (Kononova 2002) which uses a rather ԓ-like but regardless clearly el-with-tail glyph. --Tropylium (talk) 13:24, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

(Listed here in case anyone wants to argue that ԓ for /ɬ/ is actually a competing dialectal standard that should have precedence. --Tropylium (talk))

I think you are mostly going to talk to yourself in this section. Move, if Tropylium says so. --Vahag (talk) 14:23, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I would say just go ahead and move them yourself. Unless there's a chance that other languages will have terms using the original spellings, the redirects that you leave will actually be useful for those who make the same mistake when searching. Given the similarity of the characters, I have a hunch scannos from online books might be a major source of these. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:38, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia, w:Khanty language uses both letters (Ӆ ӆ and Ԓ ԓ). Are you certain that these particular words are spelled with Ӆ ӆ? —Stephen ^(Talk) 15:04, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Update: apparently the normative glyph is in fact ԯ (el with descender). However, this has not been widely available in fonts, so ӆ or ԓ have been used as workaround solutions in some materials. (Can anyone reading this actually see the first glyph?) --Tropylium (talk) 09:42, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

@Tropylium: Just FYI, the free font Quivira supports Ԯ, ԯ. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 10:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

@Tropylium, do these still need to be moved? - -sche (discuss) 22:55, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

They do, though we never did settle here if we should move them to use ԯ or ӆ. Since the latter is attestable as well, and seems to render better, I would be okay with it (even if we might be setting ourselves up for replacing these again with alternate-spelling soft-redirects some years down the line). --Tropylium (talk) 01:57, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I actually think I prefer ԓ; it's used in this dictionary for instance, and like Tropylium said, it renders better. Thadh (talk) 14:35, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

If ԯ is the canonical glyph, that's the one we should use. If non-canonical glyphs are widely used, we can use hard or soft redirects for them. —Mahāgaja · talk 21:52, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

So, what needs to be moved is:

• вәԓ (wəł) → вәԯ (wəł) (with redirect from вәӆ)
• вәԓты (wəłty) → вәԯты (wəłty) (redirect from вәӆты)
• нивӑԓмит (niwăłmit) → нивӑԯмит (niwăłmit) (нивӑӆмит)
• нивԓ (niwł) → нивԯ (niwł) (нивӆ)
• няԓ (njał) → няԯ (njał) (няӆ)
• няԓмит (njałmit) → няԯмит (njałmit) (няӆмит)
• оԓӑӈмит (ołăṇmit) → оԯӑӈмит (ołăṇmit) (оӆӑӈмит)
• пӑԓ (păł) → пӑԯ (păł) (пӑӆ)
• хәԓмит (həłmit) → хәԯмит (həłmit) (хәӆмит)
• хәԓум (həłum) → хәԯум (həłum) (хәӆум)
• ԓапӑт (łapăt) → ԯапӑт (łapăt) (ӆапӑт)
• ԓапӑтмит (łapătmit) → ԯапӑтмит (łapătmit) (ӆапӑтмит)

?- -sche (discuss) 01:47, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@Tropylium, Vahagn Petrosyan, Chuck Entz, -sche, Thadh. I've made the above moves and redirects. I think this thread can finally be closed after over 8½ years. —Mahāgaja · talk 13:11, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. To be sure Thadh is right too about ԓ being also in use for /ɬ/; but some of this is probably eventually best resolved by splitting the Khanty main dialect groups as separate languages — the Volkova & Solovar dictionary is not Kazym Khanty as the entries here are, but Surgut Khanty, whose orthography differs also in some other conventions (e.g. for 'ear' and 'seven', not пӑԓ, ԓапӑт but пәԓ, ԓапəт. --Tropylium (talk) 16:59, 14 June 2023 (UTC)