Talk:involve

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(transitive): engross[edit]

To take up somebody's whole attention --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:13, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RFV discussion: August 2021[edit]

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Verb sense #3:

To complicate or make intricate, as in grammatical structure.
the web of lies that he's spinning is becoming more and more involved.
He uses such involved language in ihs text that it's difficult to follow.
  • 1689 (indicated as 1690), [John Locke], An Essay Concerning Humane Understanding. […], London: […] Eliz[abeth] Holt, for Thomas Basset, […], →OCLC:
    the fallacies that are often concealed in florid, witty, or involved discourses.
  • 1963, Margery Allingham, chapter 17, in The China Governess‎[1]:
    The face which emerged was not reassuring. […] He was not a mongol but there was a deficiency of a sort there, and it was not made more pretty by a latter-day hair cut which involved eccentrically long elf-locks and oiled black curls.

Both usexes and one quotation are adjectival uses of involved so do not count. The second quotation is apparently an example of sense #1, "To comprise or include; to have as a related part". Apparently sense #3 is supposed to be a transitive verb. I suppose that this adjectival sense of "involved" may originally derive from a transitive verb meaning "to complicate", but does this exist in modern English? Or perhaps we can find archaic examples? Mihia (talk) 12:05, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I’ll abstain on that until I’ve had a thorough search for archaic examples but I’ve added sense 4, as the first quote is sense 1 (as is the example for sense 3 you mentioned) and the second quote is consistent with the first part of the definition but not the second part. Unless we can find a quote saying something like “he involved the crops” instead of “he gathered the crops” or “he involved the information” for “he took in the information”, then we should remove the ‘take in; gather in’ part of the definition IMO. Overlordnat1 (talk) 13:58, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've created a separate thread for sense #4, below. Mihia (talk) 16:08, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Hurlstone, E. T., Murphy, F. S. (1838). Reports of Cases Argued and Determined in the Court of Exchequer: With a Table of the Names of Cases and a Digest of the Principal Matters : from Hilary Term, 7 W. IV. 1836 to Michaelmas Term, 1 Vict. 1837, Both Inclusive. United Kingdom: H. Butterworth and R. Pheney. - Page 248: ‘Involve the problem as you will.’ shortly followed by ‘involve this case as you will.’
GBS link: [2] Mihia (talk) 17:26, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here's a couple that seem very clear:
"The distribution and configuration of the land, together with the influence of the winds, greatly involve the problem of the tides, and render it one of the most difficult in the whole range of physics." [3]
"The sewerage and drainage of the town of Gibraltar, being upon a very defective system, greatly involve the sanitary welfare of the troops, many of the barrack buildings being immediately within the influences of such evil." [4]
Mihia (talk) 17:53, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Great finds, I personally consider this sense of involve to be real bearing them in mind, so I’d be very surprised if this doesn’t pass verification. Overlordnat1 (talk) 22:10, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]


RFV discussion: August 2021[edit]

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involve (2)

Verb sense #4:

To take in; to gather in; to mingle confusedly; to blend or merge.

Nominated for RFV by Overlordnat1 per above comment: "as the first quote is sense 1 and the second quote is consistent with the first part of the definition but not the second part. Unless we can find a quote saying something like “he involved the crops” instead of “he gathered the crops” or “he involved the information” for “he took in the information”, then we should remove the ‘take in; gather in’ part of the definition IMO." Mihia (talk) 16:08, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to me, if I am understanding correctly, that "Involves a vast involuntary throng" supports the sense "to take/gather in", and is distinct from sense #1, "To comprise or include", in that it is dynamic rather than static. The gathering number takes/gathers in the involuntary throng. Again, if I am understanding it correctly, the second quotation supports the sense "to blend or merge". So keep, but if these senses do not exist in modern English, distinct from other senses listed at involve, then they need to be labelled archaic or obsolete. Mihia (talk) 16:18, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Noting, however, that the present definition and examples seem to mix up transitive (e.g. "gather in") and intransitive ("mingle") uses, which is not ideal. Mihia (talk) 17:44, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that the use of the present continuous tense ‘gathering’ and the phrase ‘as it moves along’ give the sense of continuity, rather than the word ‘involve’. If we keep a sense of ‘take in’ then it should be split from the sense of ‘mingle’ (though such a new sense would be very close, if not identical, in meaning to sense 1 (‘include’). So keep the first part and delete the second part of the definition for this sense.Overlordnat1 (talk) 14:17, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also the best way to deal with the problem of having the transitive ‘gather in’ defined as forming the same sense as (and so, in a way, being equivalent to) the intransitive ‘mingle’, is to simply remove ‘gather in’ from the definition of sense 4; especially considering it’s covered under our sense 1 anyway. Overlordnat1 (talk) 02:09, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

cited Kiwima (talk) 01:04, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 21:54, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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