User talk:Suzukaze-c

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Chinese Characters for Transcribing Slavonic[edit]

Hello, I have had some questions regarding the Chinese characters for transcribing Slavonic. Do you feel it would be alright to include their pronunciation (eg. 鿦 shows pronunciation as vin, 鿚 shows pronunciation as gi, etc.)? —This unsigned comment was added by 64.114.207.65 (talk).

鿚 represents gi, but I wonder if gi is actually the pronunciation? (were they read using original Slavic pronunciation, were they read using a Chinese approximation...?) (鿚 = gi is definitely important information.) —Suzukaze-c 21:54, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Reply[edit]

You have new messages Hello, Suzukaze-c. You have new messages at MediaWiki talk:Common.css#Japanese uses MS PGothic but it should use Meiryo.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{talkback}} template.

--186.88.111.3 20:51, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Hakka pronunciations for Malaysian place names[edit]

I'm wondering where you're getting these. We have really limited support for Hakka dialects - just Sixian and Meixian. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:15, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

I stumbled across "Hakka Lessons for Malayan Students" on Google Books. I am not sure what dialect it describes though. It's not easy to figure things out from 6-line snippets... —Suzukaze-c 19:23, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Whichever it's describing is definitely not Sixian, which is only spoken in Taiwan. I've removed the reading at 新埠 for now. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:33, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
This says that it's Huizhou Hakka, which seems to be common in Malaysia. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:35, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Oh, cool. —Suzukaze-c 19:36, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
It looks like Mantaro Hashimoto says it is the Meixian dialect. —Suzukaze-c 05:21, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Use of Template:bor for on'yomi terms[edit]

I think it was you that (I noticed) first started using {{bor}} for the etyms of on'yomi terms. Fumiko has decided to be a dick again over at 女性, here, and here. (I've blocked her for three days for abusiveness and edit warring.) I have read the documentation, and it looks to me like {{bor}} could apply -- especially as we haven't differentiated the historical stages of the Japanese language.

What's your take?

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:29, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, was it me? I tend to not add the etymology for kango (can't be too sure...). At this very moment in time, near the end of July 2018, I think would use {{der|ja|ltc}} for kango???? I'm not sure though. I can be inconsistent with the things I do when I don't have a terribly strong opinion either way. {{bor}} absolutely makes sense too, and I disagree very much with Fumiko's dickish behavior. —Suzukaze-c 04:03, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
@Eirikr: Fumiko is a she? Per utramque cavernam 20:39, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
@Per utramque cavernam: IRL, dunno. Trying out {{User gender}} returns -, which apparently means that the user hasn't set any gender preferences. That said, Fumiko is definitely a feminine name, and in a since-deleted post, Fumiko stated that the username was a near-translation into Japanese of their real-life name. Based on that, I use the feminine gender when referring to this user. If Fumiko ever states a different preference, I'm happy to follow suit. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:52, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Ok, I see. Per utramque cavernam 21:02, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Technical issue with Template:zh-see[edit]

Hey suzukaze,

I'm seeing instances of the {{zh-see}} template showing "tr=-" text for unknown reasons, sometimes after valid linked words are shown. I figured you might know more about template issues than I do. Cheers! Bumm13 (talk) 14:46, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

@Bumm13: Do you have an example? —Suzukaze-c 20:35, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Finally found it. Here at 𧈡. Bumm13 (talk) 21:34, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
It seems to be faulty processing of {{zh-alt-form|早|tr=-}}. I think I've fixed it. —Suzukaze-c 21:59, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

{{nonlemma}} non-optimal[edit]

I noticed in one of your recent edits that you are adding {{nonlemma}} for alternative forms. That itself is fine, and no concerns from me. What is a concern, however, is the confusing format and output of this template. It says,

See etymology on the main entry.

... which links not to the main entry, as suggested by the format, but instead to Wiktionary:Lemmas, which I think will confuse many users. It's not immediately clear at all even what the "main entry" would be.

I'd like to propose updating {{nonlemma}} to, say, take the actual "main entry" term as an argument, and output a link? For the 苟且 (karisome) entry, it would then look more like:

producing:

Would you have any objection?

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:31, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree that the link is misleading. I guess the main entry is already linked to in the rest of the entry though. —Suzukaze-c 20:37, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article on:[edit]

For and a hundred other articles, I added the template zh-wp which links to Chinese wikipedia. Although the content of the 不 zh.wiki article was not really related to the senses of 不 discussed on wiktionary, I thought that 1、不 is inherently related to 不 no matter the content in the articles and 2、"Wikipedia has an article on: 不" was a factual statement. I agree with your reservations and was hesitant to add the link, but for the two reasons stated above, I added it anyway. I'm not really too concerned either way; if you don't like some of the other zh-wp's I added, let me know. I will try to follow whatever established pattern or policy on relevance that we have. Also, let me know what you think of the pics I added. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:12, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

It's not related to any of the senses on the page though... If I see a link on Wiktionary saying "Chinese Wikipedia: 不", I might expect something on negative particles, not a South African song. IMO, it looks silly. —Suzukaze-c 00:18, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
The point of the Wikipedia links is to provide a source for encyclopedic information that doesn't belong in a dictionary. If the Wikipedia article doesn't elaborate on what the definitions refer to, it shouldn't be linked to from the entry. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:54, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
I understand your points completely. I agree the link looked silly. I see now that a link to a wikipedia article is only appropriate if the wikipedia article being linked 'elaborates on what the wiktionary definitions refer to'. I will only add these links if there is a connection between the wiktionary definitions and the content of the wikipedia article. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:17, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

楊葉[edit]

I could explain my rationale for not creating that page, but it would sound silly. Looks fine. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:25, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

? It could be possible, although Wikipedia seems to be fine with 葉, and 葉 makes more sense semantically as well. I suppose it would also be normalized into 協 in simplified Chinese, as well. Being too cautious isn't bad though. —Suzukaze-c 01:29, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Audio display issue with Template:zh-pron[edit]

Not sure if you saw the ping on Discord, so I thought I'd leave you a message. Seeing as this isn't going to be dealt with any time soon, is there a stopgap measure that can be employed? Weirdly excessive spacing for some people is preferable to IPA being obscured by an audiofile for other people. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:02, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Module:User:Suzukaze-c/zh-pron#non-template_model has a "fix" but it's weird and I don't know if it works in all browsers. I suppose it could be added to the live code if people determine that it's an OK hack. I can't figure out why the original audio player thing acts so terribly. —Suzukaze-c 04:14, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
It works on both Chrome and Safari for me (the current template works on neither for me). I think it's a vast improvement, but you'll have to poll the Chinese editorship before going live. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:26, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Pinging @Wyang, Justinrleung, KevinUp. —Suzukaze-c 21:58, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

The suggested fix looks good to me. I like how compact the MC and OC readings look. It may be slightly cumbersome to click on a particular arrow to reveal its IPA reading/audio file but I think it is a good stopgap measure we can use for the time being. I suggest we put it live for a few days to see if there are any potential hiccups with it. KevinUp (talk) 00:06, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
Is this for the audio only or for the whole template? The non-template model at present seems a bit 單調 to me. If we want to overhaul the template, I really like this. Wyang (talk) 00:49, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
Just the audio, using the <div> around the [[File: element. Ignore everything else. —Suzukaze-c 01:26, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
Ah okay, (don't know what it will look like but) certainly, any improvement would be good. Wyang (talk) 04:55, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
@Wyang The new model on codepen looks really nice. I hope it can interact with the "Visibility" function in the sidebar. --Dine2016 (talk) 05:04, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes check.svg DoneSuzukaze-c 04:55, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

拉洋片[edit]

Hi. I'm a bit confused about your edit here. I've never seen three whole sentences used as a definition in a Chinese entry before. Is there a way we can use standard formatting here? ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:43, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

My answer is the same as last time. I'd definitely like to replace it with a short English translation (rather than an "explanation") if there was one. —Suzukaze-c 04:47, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry for bugging you again about it. I just happened to come across it on my watchlist. I thanked Frank for his edit. I think it's a good compromise. ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:52, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
No worries. I like the new revision too. —Suzukaze-c 17:05, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Trimming Google urls[edit]

I noticed you did this at [[hooker]].

What part of the link to a highlighted page is superfluous?

Also, how do I prevent the occasional accidental display to users of parts of a google url? (I don't have an example handy.)

Even a less-than-definitive answer (a rule of thumb) would be useful. Thanks in advance. DCDuring (talk) 12:57, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

I try deleting everything that doesn't look necessary; at hooker, I have left what appears to be
  1. a book id,
  2. a page number, and
  3. a search query,
and it still works.
I'm not sure what you mean by "occasional display"... —Suzukaze-c 21:13, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
Accidental display would result from a space in the URL, which causes everything after the space to be interpreted as part of the caption. Normally they would be converted to %20 or + in the URL itself, but modern browsers will let you get away with nonstandard formatting, and sometimes a space will get introduced in the copy-pasting process. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:56, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. I have successfully applied your heuristic at [[skeeve]] (first cite).
I have a live example of the "occasional display": the 1993 cite at [[skeeve]]. I recall that Ruakh once helped me with the problem, but I don't recall how. DCDuring (talk) 22:46, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
Ah, that problem. The quotation marks are not being recognized as part of the URL for whatever reason, so they must be manually percent-encoded into %22 ([1]). Compare to the URL for the Lou Cameron quote. —Suzukaze-c 23:06, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
Excellent. Thank you. I'll try to get that into my PROM. DCDuring (talk) 23:15, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Module:ja-headword[edit]

  • ゐ、ゑ and を are a large important part of the historical kana orthography. About 200 entries were in each newly created "history spelled with" category.
  • I have not yet come up with how to track historical わ. But this does not mean ゐ、ゑ、を should not be tracked. If you don't know either, do not obstruct others.

Huhu9001 (talk) 03:24, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Maybe a start would be having the module look for a headword or pagename containing わ and historical hiragana containing は, though I assume that sometimes わ and は do not correspond so there would be false positives. (This search query gives partial results: hastemplate:"Module:ja-headword" insource:/\{\{ja-[^|}]+\|[^|}]*わ[^|}]*\|hhira=[^|}]*は/.) — Eru·tuon 03:58, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
To Eru: I think that is a good idea. Maybe we can find out some methods to also track きやう → きょう, しやう → しょう, etc. simultaneously. Huhu9001 (talk) 08:20, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
I've added an easy-to-test function in Module:ja-headword/sandbox and started a list of examples at Module:ja-headword/sandbox/testcases. Could you help by adding some more examples of sound changes and possible category titles? — Eru·tuon 18:26, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that, without additional user-provided information, it can be impossible to programmatically determine whether a given instance of しやう etc. is an earlier spelling of a modern monophthong. For example, the kana spelling of 仕様 (shiyō, specification) is now しよう, from earlier しやう. I may be wrong, but I don't think this term was ever read as monophthong /ɕʲoː/. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:50, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
If I understand you right, that shouldn't be an issue, because the function is comparing the modern spelling to the historical one; it can't do anything if either one is absent. — Eru·tuon 19:03, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes, given the modern spelling, it should be an easy task to “parse” or “regex match” the historical spelling using a table such as Historical kana orthography#Complete tables of differences. The only issue I see is when the modern and the historical differ too much, e.g. あおぐ(仰ぐ) vs. あふぐ. --Dine2016 (talk) 15:07, 25 September 2018 (UTC) [EDIT: there are also irregular changes like がくかう→がっこう、てんわう→てんのう, etc. --Dine2016 (talk) 14:58, 26 September 2018 (UTC)]
Thank you both, I believe that fully addresses my concern. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:16, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Care to be an administrator?[edit]

I saw a few of your subpages in the {{delete}} list and was surprised to discover that you were not yet an administrator. Would you like to be? - TheDaveRoss 18:14, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Not really, no. It would definitely be more convenient for me in many ways, but I'm not interested in having the title. Thank you though. —Suzukaze-c 19:42, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Question concerning recent 隔音符號 edit[edit]

Hello! I saw your recent edit to the 隔音符號 page ([2]) in which you removed the text '1=to divide syllables' from the 'zh-forms' module. The practical effect of this change was to edit the definition of the '隔音' in '隔音符號' from 'to divide syllables' to 'soundproof; to separate syllables'. In my view, this edit seems like an obvious degradation of the page rather than an improvement, because the '隔音' in the word '隔音符號' has nothing to do with the 'soundproof' definition (as far as I am aware). In the past, User Wyang has made changes on other pages very similar to your edit on 隔音符號 that also left me utterly befuddled. I would like to ask you why you believe that this edit makes an improvement to the 隔音符號 page. My best guess is that your edit reflects a 由来已久的 wiktionary policy that I don't have a grasp on yet. Thanks for any help. Sorry to bother. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 05:12, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Hm. Including "soundproof" could definitely be confusing, but I somehow like the idea of leaving {{zh-forms}} to naively show all definitions from an entry. I'm terrible at explaining things, but I think my opinion has to do with curiosity (hm, this word has multiple senses) and common sense (this word has multiple senses but it is probably "this one" anyway). I also like to avoid hardcoding things (maybe the text at 隔音符號 would become out-of-sync with and disagree with 隔音 someday). I don't think there's any official policy on this. —Suzukaze-c 05:45, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
I understand what you are saying, but how do you feel about the definition given for the 生 character as found in 謀生 on the 謀生 page? I will give further response later. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:49, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
I think have been persuaded by your argument. But I think what I want is the ability to tell people which definition of 生 is being used in 謀生 with the word 'livelihood', and which meaning of 采 is being employed when 采 is used in 興高采烈 ('spirit'). (I remember doing something like this with 幅員 too.) Maybe the box above the character isn't the right place to do this- maybe it needs to be in an 'etymology' section? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:29, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
After writing the above, I had a new opinion about the nature of 隔音 in 隔音符號- it's SOP?? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:37, 7 November 2018 (UTC) (modified)
I do not treat manual glosses for individual characters as harshly since there are a lot of definitions displayed, and they are not from our entries anyway. If I have any complaints, it is that manual glosses do not immediately look any different from the usual generic glosses.
I think the general consensus is that zh-forms for compounds generally makes Etymology sections refundant, cf. the recent deletion of {{zh-compound}}.
As for verb+noun phrases, I think it is more complicated. We have entries like 喝酒 不知道 好用 etc. which are arguably SoP, but there are no spaces in Chinese 🤷 This time I really can't explain why I suppose verb+noun entries, but I do. (不+x, not so much, for now, TBH) —Suzukaze-c 07:39, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
I was not able to understand what you were saying in your first paragraph about the manual glosses and generic glosses. I think I know what those terms mean, but in my understanding, a manual gloss for an individual character would likely have only one or only a few definitions displayed (not 'a lot of definitions'), while the generic glosses would have many definitions displayed- telling you all the different meanings of the character. Therefore I couldn't understand what you meant in that paragraph.
In response to your second paragraph, what I mean to say is that Wyang previously liked the 'manual gloss' I added for the 生 character as it is used in 謀生, but Wyang didn't like other glosses I made that were based on analysis found in the dictionaries I look at. To me, the discussion is moot for the moment since the topic we were originally discussing was the 隔音 in 隔音符号, and I can't think of the specific examples that Wyang reverted. It was a long time ago. (Also, 'refundant' sounds like something you do over and over that is really fun, or perhaps a source of reoccurring 'funds'~~ funny!)
In response to your third paragraph, I made some edits to 喝酒, 不知道 & 好用 based on five/six dictionaries that I look at a lot. I came to the preliminary conclusion that hējiǔ and hǎoyòng were non-standard or nonsensical pinyin forms (but some dictionaries had the entry '不知道', so the pinyin forms 'bùzhīdao' & 'bùzhīdào' are tolerable enough though I have not yet confirmed their existence). If you want to revert my change at 隔音 and 隔音符号 and add the meaning 'to separate syllables', that's okay with me. I think this was first time I have ever used the SoP justification to delete something; I don't know what I'm doing. I called it a justification via SoP, but it was basically as a cloak for my ulterior reason, which was that I didn't find this meaning for 隔音 in the dictionaries I was looking at when I made that edit. Sorry if any of my response here was stupid. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:09, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
stream of consciousness response/elaboration:
  1. the glosses shown for characters (such as : "to be born; to give birth; life; to grow; student; raw") are not taken from 生#Definitions (they are from Module:zh/data/glosses)
  2. "to be born; to give birth; life; to grow; student; raw" is long and vague, and I support making it more specific,
    • unlike with entries like 隔音, since the content at 隔音 is more liable to change, and any changes would not be propagated to 隔音符号
    • →I like the edit at 謀生
  3. I think that it would be nice if our entries signaled to users that a manual gloss was placed in {{zh-forms}}
    • ←"an editor took the time to manually adjust the gloss"
    • →maybe if we did this, I might have greater support for adding manual glosses for "words" ("words" referring to 2 characters 以上): "a manual gloss was inserted here"→"check the original entry to see if anything is different"
      • this still would cause a discrepancy between the original entry (隔音) and the derived entry (隔音符号)
  4. (now I'm interested in the theoretical meaning of "refundant" as well……)
-
  1. The absence of 隔音 "to separate syllables" in other dictionaries might be suspicious, but we are not under obligation to follow them :)
  2. There must be documentation of the correct pinyin orthography for words/phrases(?) such as 喝酒 somewhere.
  3. thinking about it a bit, I don't really support every single theoretical 1-character-verb+1-character-noun collocation that exists. I don't know what my criteria are.
Suzukaze-c 04:22, 13 November 2018 (UTC)