Appendix talk:Hungarian pronunciation

New layout

@Adam78 I'm thinking about a new layout for the pronunciation tables:

1. The small blue arrow doesn't work in mobile devices, so I have to add the regular audio template which takes more horizontal space, unfortunately, but it doesn't take the user to a different web page.
2. Column 1 should be the actual letter (for example b).
3. Column 2 is the IPA (e.g. [b]). This is even more important for h, j, m and n with allophones. The current layout is not clear.
4. Column 3 is an example Hungarian word with the English translation immediately after that: bab (“bean”).
5. Column 4 is the audio template.
6. Column 5 is an option: the approximate English equivalent. For b it's b as in boy.

I half completed the first row without changing the column headers. It would be very helpful to know what you think about the changes. Thanks. Panda10 (talk) 21:30, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

@Panda10, I absolutely agree; it's a very good idea. It'll be a great improvement. (I guess the letter and the pronounced form will be in two separate columns?)

I wonder if you plan to mention other spelling forms of sounds resulting from assimilations, such as when you describe the sound [c], primarily ty but also tj in words like látjuk, or the sound [ʃː] not only spelled as ss but also as szs in egészség and zs in község. You might also want to look up the template for consonants in the Hungarian Wikipedia (which I created long ago), especially consonants marked in pale yellow, which occur only as allophones in Hungarian. I suppose most of them are already mentioned anyway.

For the unvoiced stops [p t k], you can use the English equivalents that occur after the letter s, which deprives them of their usual aspiration, such as speak, stop and skip.

You might also think it over what information should be provided here in Wiktionary and what information should be left e.g. in Hungarian phonology in Wikipedia, so as to avoid unnecessary duplication when links might suffice. (I suppose the information there might be broader and more theoretical and this appendix in Wiktionary should be more practical and concise.) Adam78 (talk) 11:08, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Adam78 Thank you for your excellent comments. Please take a look at the new consonant table. It's a little too wide but I can't make it narrower. I included the látja, egészség, község variants but looking at it, I think they need a separate table. It would be good to have a clean alphabet in the first column. Same issue with rendszer. Panda10 (talk) 17:59, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Panda10, the most important thing I see is that ambiguous clusters like zs should be clearly marked if it's their less common pronunciation (see also the false digraphs) because the current presentation is misleading. Yes, a separate table may be a good idea. For other assimilation features, you can check e.g. the rules of orthography (sections 48–80) or any other grammar book you prefer (I didn't intend to be exhaustive in terms of the relevant cases). Adam78 (talk) 18:49, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Adam78 I removed the assimilations since they are listed in detail in Appendix:Hungarian pronunciation assimilation. I also made two vowel tables. I think they are now clearer and each table follows the alphabetical order. Thanks again. Panda10 (talk) 21:29, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Long consonants

@Adam78 I've been thinking about adding a separate table for long consonants. It could also include cases you mentioned above. For egészség, the first column would contain ss or sz+s, the IPA [ʃː]. For látja, the first column would be tty or tj, the IPA [cː]. I wouldn't want to duplicate the assimilation appendix, although that has a different organization. Here I'd keep the alphabetical order. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Panda10 (talk) 18:08, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

@Panda10 I think it's a good idea, as long as there are separate rows for the individual spellings. (You may want to use colspan for merged columns, or you may prefer not to if you make the columns sortable, supposing it makes any sense for the given table.) Adam78 (talk) 20:43, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

@Adam78 I've created the table and added [bː] and [t͡sː] but suddenly I have some doubts about it. I wonder if it's an overkill. Take a look at Appendix:English_pronunciation#Consonants. The examples column contains a lists of words, for ʃ it's ash, sure, ration without further explanation. The IPA symbol is linked to an audio file. Based on that, I could just have one row for [t͡sː] and list the words without IPA, English translation and audio. The words can be linked and looked up. Or we could just get rid of the long consonant table and add a row to the Other symbols table about the meaning of ː (the IPA colon). Any thoughts? Panda10 (talk) 14:37, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

@Panda10 All right, if you link the examples one by one, bolding the letter combinations in question, it'll be fine! But I think it's better to keep the inventory of long consonants since they can derive from pretty diverse consonant clusters. Adam78 (talk) 14:45, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

@Adam78 Thanks. For now, let me continue with the original design and when it's done, we'll make a decision if it's too much. Panda10 (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

@Adam78 Please review. If you have better examples or if I missed letter combinations, please let me know and I will add them. Panda10 (talk) 20:11, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

@Panda10 I think the first table too should be rearranged by phonetics, rather than by consonant letters, so that single-consonant assimilations can be supplied there:

• [ɟ] including d+j as in mondja or kardja
• [c] including t+j as in kertje or féltjük.
• [t͡ʃ] including d+s as in bolondság.

In the table for long consonants:

• [hː] is inconsistent: the example has [xː]. I think the latter sound is correct.
• [jː] should also include ly+j as in folyjon and llj as in állj.
• The example word for short [d͡z] is not suitable (it has a long sound); possible examples include brindza (or other words where it follows another consonant).
• [t͡ʃː] should also include t+s as in barátság and d+s as in vadság.
• [sː] should also include z+sz as in vízszint.
• [ɲː] should also include ny+j as in anyja.
• [cː] should also include ty+j as in atyja.
• [ɟː] should also include d+gy as in hadgyakorlat.
• [d͡ʒː] is missing, which can have two spelled forms, dzs (as in menedzser, bridzsel) and ddzs (in suffixed forms like briddzsel).

I didn't check it exhaustively, though the link I gave above about false digraphs may be helpful in finding any more types. Adam78 (talk) 12:47, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

@Adam78 Thank you very much for the detailed comments. I updated both tables. I will add the missing audio files soon. Panda10 (talk) 18:07, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Q, W, X, Y

@Adam78 We don't have these letters yet. Should they go to a separate table or mixed in with the Consonants? Panda10 (talk) 20:51, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

@Panda10 Mixed in with the Consonants, along with ch, which occurs in many well-known Hungarian words (more than Q, W or Y), and which can have three or four different ways of pronunciation. Adam78 (talk) 21:21, 29 March 2022 (UTC)