Talk:皇

Also "emperor"?

Can this also mean "emperor"? 71.66.97.228 06:52, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Wubi input

I am not sure what kind of material is applicable to this page, so I add the information here. The Wubi86 input code for this character is RGF.

Generally, it would be great to also directly link to the referenced dictionaries, and maybe to reference material about the input methods, too - but maybe in a separate part about languages (eg. one page per language which gives a good overview about relevant dictionaries etc.). 79.228.183.87 21:00, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Kun'yomi

Hello @Poketalker, non-on readings listed in JA dictionaries, that apply in toto to a single kanji, are generally regarded as kun'yomi unless they're some kind of relatively recent innovation. Rather that すべ・すべら・すめ・すめら are quite ancient -- see also https://kotobank.jp/word/%E7%9A%87-448702 -- these would have to be kun'yomi. I have restored them as such in the entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:12, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

@Eirikr: the same link, Daijisen section has this: ［音］コウ（クヮウ）（漢）　オウ（ワウ）（呉）　［訓］きみ　すめらぎ　すべらぎ

Rather than creating kun readings from dictionary entries as you did, the kun readings should be based on the kanji entry in question; therefore my POV that sube and sume being irregular readings. Unless someone has a physical kanji dictionary which list all of the possible kun readings of a specific kanji (don't have any at the moment; the online Jigen probably isn't one)... ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 01:26, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

To turn it around, we could say that, conversely, you're limiting the list of kun'yomi based on dictionary entries.  :)

Per w:ja:訓読み,

訓読み（くんよみ）とは、日本語において、個々の漢字をその意味に相当する和語（大和言葉、日本語の固有語）によって読む読み方が定着したもの。

Further down, the article lists a few specific cases of 訓読み. For 皇, the readings in question aren't 熟字訓, nor 義訓, nor yet 国訓. They might be viewed as "irregular", but again, these readings are very well established quite early in the historical record: 「読み方が定着したもの。」 See also MYS 77, among various other places, where 皇 appears with one of these readings. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 02:35, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

@Eirikr: first of all you're confusing the interpretation of the man'yogana in the poem with *the original poem*:

吾大王物莫御念須賣神乃嗣而賜流吾莫勿久爾

wago₂ opoki₁mi₁ mono₂ na-omoposi sume₁kami₂ no tugi₁te tamape₁ru ware nake₁naku ni

(please add an English translation of this usage example)

...that means there is no written 皇 (sume₁-) in the above poem. If I make an OJP entry for sume₁-, there might be a dilemma: should it be created at 皇 or すめ?

What I mean is, take 祈 for example. Its kun reading is 祈る (inoru). However, dictionaries list 祈ぐ (negu) with this kanji despite Daijisen not having this in its kanji entry; the ne- can be an irregular reading. That is at least my stance on the issue, unless another dictionary has ね-ぐ on its 祈 entry.

If you like though, if my single-kanji edits are in need of more readings, feel free. For now I follow the Daijisen rule of {{ja-readings}}. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 03:22, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

• Re: the MYS, I did not intend to do an exhaustive search. For the sume reading in the context of the compound term 皇神 (sumekami), where the kanji 皇 is used in the source rather than a phonetic equivalent, see MYS 5 #894. I'm sure we could ferret out other cases where 皇 is used in compounds in some poems, and the same compound with a phonetic spelling is used somewhere else as confirmation of the reading.
• Re: dictionaries, I did some poking around.

• Nelson's kanji dictionary for English readers includes the sumera reading as a kun'yomi. Google Books isn't cooperating (hiding the relevant page from preview), but I can upload a photo of my own dead-tree copy if you'd like. Nelson's reading listings are minimal rather than exhaustive, and it does not include any of the sube- readings, nor sume nor sumeragi.
• The monolingual Japanese SMK5's kanji lookup index in the mini paper version I have here indicates kun'yomi as 「△すめ（ら）△すめらぎ」. The triangle is used in the index to indicate non-Jōyō readings. I can't presently find an explanation for the SMK5's parenthesis notation here, but I do see that the main body of the dictionary includes an entry for 皇 (sume) as a prefix alongside a separate entry for noun 皇 (sumera), suggesting that the （ら） indicates a kind of branching, where readers can expect to find an entry with the listed additional kana, and an entry without. Both entries show a 《 above the readings (vertically oriented, as the text itself is so oriented), which is explained in the introductory material as indicating non-Jōyō readings. In addition to omitting rarer senses, forms, and readings, as befits a smaller dictionary, the Shinmeikai in general is known for being a bit odd, as dictionaries go; c.f. w:ja:Shin Meikai kokugo jiten.
• Daijisen's entry seems to use a similar notation, a downward pointing ▽ to show non-Jōyō readings, as explained in the 「2. 常用漢字」 section of their 凡例 page (can't link directly to that section). I do find it odd that Daijisen's ［漢字項目］ section for reading kō doesn't list all kun'yomi, and then the fuller entry below includes nothing for any of the three listed kun'yomi of kimi, sumeragi, or suberagi -- none of which are included in the Jōyō readings, either. In general, I've found that the DJS seems to omit information about rarer senses, forms, and readings.
• The Daijirin entry at Kotobank is missing such metadata about readings, but the Weblio version includes it. We again see a ▽ used to indicate non-Jōyō readings (see also their 凡例 page). The DJR also seems to include less information than the KDJ. Compare the DJS, DJR, and KDJ entries for 丸太, for instance -- the DJS and DJR are both missing the additional KDJ sense related to fish, and while the DJS and DJR provide brief definitions related to Edo-period prostitutes, we have to read the KDJ entry to get any additional information about why "debarked log" came to mean "unlicensed prostitute masquerading as a Buddhist nun".

I've also got a dead-tree KDJ somewhere, I'll see if I can find that one too. I've gravitated toward using the KDJ more and more over time, as it provides more information than many other JA dictionaries. I liken it to the OED as an exhaustive resource, as compared to the more "abridged" information provided by Merriam-Webster, Collins, etc. Similar to the OED, however, the physical KDJ is a bit of a monster, so I mostly use the electronic CD version, due to ease of use and portability. ^_^  :)

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:02, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

@Eirikr: as long as the Shin Meikai (and any other dictionaries) have すべ(ら)/すめ(ら) as kun readings of 皇, that is all. By the way, does the Shin Meikai include ね-ぐ in the 祈 entry?

Side note: went to Kinokuniya Books in Little Tokyo a few days before Christmas, skimmed through Tuttle's large kanji dictionary in the language shelf, and it does not have すべ(ら)/すめ(ら) kun reading for 皇 nor ね-ぐ for 祈. Rare readings indeed. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 05:20, 27 December 2019 (UTC)