User talk:Eirikr

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Not much going on here at present. Feel free to drop a line. Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 16:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)



Arrowred.png Between work, more work, and home life, I'm snowed under for the time being. (Please ignore the irony that it is now late spring / early summer in the northern hemisphere.) Prognosis remains unclear. Suffice it to say that I'm down, but not out. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:31, 28 May 2014 (UTC)



I noticed that you speak some Hawaiian - could you fix my (probably faulty) translation of a quote here? (I had to reorder some words because Hawaiian uses demonstratives so strangely...) Thanks so much! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:47, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Heya, I'd be happy to help as best I can. My Hawaiian materials are actually in my cubicle at work, so it'll have to wait until Monday.  :) -- Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:31, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Great! I await your corrections. Thanks again! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 14:38, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, there's egg on my face, and not because I've been messy with my breakfast -- I seem to have misplaced my Hawaiian materials, as they're not here in my cubicle either. I'll give the page a shot, but I won't do too much at the moment, as my Hawaiian is limited and rusty enough that I don't feel all that confident without my books to hand.  :) -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 15:25, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, really any help is appreciated. It's a little embarrassing around here when it comes to the point where I have to do Hawaiian translations :) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:12, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Took me blooming forwever, but I finally tweaked the etym. Only real changes were for the ā conjunction and then the expanded translation. C.f. the ā entry at, specifically sense #4. HTH, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:18, 11 February 2013 (UTC)


Just letting you know that although you got rid of the Japanese entry here which you said was bogus, the Japanese translation given at voodoo still points to that entry. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:06, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I have removed 巫毒教 and added ブードゥー教 as the Japanese translation for voodoo. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:32, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, guys. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:38, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Welcome back![edit]

RuakhTALK 06:34, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

  • Thanks! Good to be back.  :) -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:56, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

xml:lang unnecessary[edit]

Hi. I noticed you adding lang and xml:lang attributes to templates. Our pages now have the HTML5 doctype <!DOCTYPE html> and the root html tag has only the lang attribute, and no xml:lang. HTML5 says “The attribute in no namespace with no prefix and with the literal localname "xml:lang" has no effect on language processing” and other confusing things,[1] but I think the gist is that adding xml:lang is obsolete. Michael Z. 2013-01-31 20:42 z

  • Interesting, thank you Michael. I didn't know that. I just added in xml:lang to match what I saw in {{Jpan}}. I suppose that means we should strip xml:lang out of all our script and lang code templates? -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I believe so. They are mainly harmless, but getting rid of extraneous code is helpful for editors and readers, in the long run. Michael Z. 2013-01-31 21:52 z

Icelandic/Old Norse[edit]

Do you actually know either of these? Your name kind of implies you do but your Babel doesn't say anything. Maybe non-0 or is-0 would be helpful to clarify? —CodeCat 23:09, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm only up on German and English of the northwestern tongues. Well, some Dutch too. I tried teaching myself Danish once, but the materials I had didn't explain the rules about glottal stops, which seemed to come and go in the same word depending on context, and I got frustrated and fed up with the books and turned my attention elsewhere.
Frankly, I never understood why the -0 templates exist -- my working assumption has always been that any language a user knows nothing about simply isn't listed. If we all spent our time attempting to exhaustively list everything we *don't* know, we'd never get any useful editing done.  :) -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:18, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

To followup on CodeCat’s question, per Wikipedia:Babel, the purpose for -0 templates is to assert that one does not know some language that one might be expected to know. As this is only semi-useful information, ’pedia now doesn’t have -0 categories – you probably aren’t interested in finding people who don’t know a language!

I’m using {{User Lua-0}} as a placeholder – I’m an experienced programmer, but I’m not yet familiar with Lua, and I expect to learn it in future. OTOH, I don’t expect to learn Chinese anytime soon, and despite having some grasp of Japanese I doubt anyone would expect me to know it, so I don’t see a reason to note that. (IRL people sometimes assume I speak German, due to name and accent, so {{User de-0}} would be useful, but no-one’s thought this online so there’s no need.)

—Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 05:53, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Re: Q about 鮟[edit]

You have new messages Hello, Eirikr. You have new messages at Nbarth's talk page.
Message added 07:11, 17 February 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{talkback}} template.

Chechen language[edit]

Eirikr, you wrote: "... In other words, I don't think you'll encounter much opposition here at Wiktionary, if you decide to create a Swadesh list for Chechen that uses the Latin alphabet. Go right ahead." (then you deleted it!) / They are against everything! I already put a Chechen list in Latin alphabet on Appendix talk:Swadesh lists (but I found it, I didn't write it. I added a few things...) Chechen-Russian Dictionary in Cyrillic script: If they want, they can make a list. (but they are against this language!)They are saying: "We don't have volunteers for the Chechen language, so no one has created a Swadesh list for Chechen." /Do you believe it? The Chechens live in which conditions? Regards, Böri (talk) 09:03, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Hello, Böri --
The reason I struck out my comment (which I didn't delete, i.e. I did not remove it from the page -- removing comments entirely is generally not considered a good thing) was that it was based on my initial misunderstanding about who "they" were. I thought at first that you were describing something that happened on Wikipedia, rather than on Wiktionary.
The concern about which script to use for any such Chechen-language list is because Wiktionary strives to be descriptive. We aim to describe how terms in a language are used. We do not take any position on how terms in any language _should_ be used -- that is being prescriptive, saying what _should be_, and Wiktionary does not do that. Entries can explain how other speakers of a language might view certain terms, such as the notes on the brung or taked entries, but again that is about describing.
So from a perspective of being descriptive, if Chechen is primarily written using the Cyrillic script, then Chechen entries on Wiktionary must include Cyrillic spellings. Those don't have to be the only spellings given, but they must be given. The key point here is: We don't care about the politics. We only care about how terms are actually used. Chechen is clearly used with the Cyrillic script, so we need to have Cyrillic spellings.
If you can show that Chechen is being written in the Roman script, and with consistent spellings, and in a way that meets our Criteria for Inclusion, then please bring up such criteria in the discussion in the Beer Parlor.
Kind regards, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 15:59, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Anatoli made a list for the Chechen words (in Cyrillic script) Appendix talk:Swadesh lists and he said you can write them in Latin alphabet on Appendix:Chechen Swadesh list. I'll work on it. So everything is OK! Regards, Böri (talk) 08:09, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Sorry but I didn't say "you can write them in the Latin alphabet". See Appendix talk:Swadesh lists for the clarification. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:09, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
You wrote: "co" in Cyrillic, and "so" as the transliteration... Böri (talk) 11:41, 6 March 2013 (UTC)


Hi. I'm undoing your edit to the etymology of ありがとう for now, because it isn't reflected in the cited source. If you think the source be wrong, can you find an reliable alternative that supports what you wrote? I was taught that these set forms were from the regular formal adjectival forms, as reflected in the current reference. I left the pronunciation addition alone.
Cheers, Ulmanor (talk) 00:24, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I described the historical sound shifts at Talk:ありがとう; let me know if that makes sense to you. The reference given was intended as a reference for hyper-formal forms, which purpose I think it serves; that was not intended to describe the etymology in any way, as that page doesn't mention historical derivations at all. Their explanations such as "change final ai to ou and add ございます (gozaimasu)" do not describe the historical development of the terms, but rather how to derive the hyper-formal forms from the modern adjectives -- i.e., instructions for the language learner, not etymologies.
FWIW, my copy of Shogakukan's 大国語辞典 has this as the intro for the ありがとう entry:
ウ音便 here refers to the missing /k/ from the Muromachi-era sound shift.
Hope that helps, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:11, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Discussion of ergatives and perfect tense in Germanic[edit]

I would prefer to avoid derailing the discussion, but I also think it's interesting so I would like to continue it. If you prefer, we can continue it here, so could you cut it and paste it here? —CodeCat 00:22, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good -- I have things to do out this evening and must run, so feel free to cut-and-paste here and continue our talk.  :) -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 02:01, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I was going to post here, too — maybe I should make this a separate discussion — but Eiríkr, I think you're confused about the term "ergative". You are obviously aware it's used in reference to the ergative case found in ergative-absolutive and tripartite languages; what you seem to be missing is that it's also used, unfortunately and nigh-unrelatedly, in reference to verbs that are inchoative/mediopassive when intransitive and causative/active when transitive. Just as we don't need {{nominative}} for (say) Latin, we presumably wouldn't need {{ergative}} for (say) Basque, so the question is whether {{ergative}} is useful for ergative verbs. —RuakhTALK 02:47, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
  • It turns out that I should have previewed before posting, because surprisingly, we do have {{nominative}} for Latin! (But it's not a context template, obviously.) —RuakhTALK 02:52, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Arrowred.png Wow. That *is* unfortunate.
One reason I never got into linguistics during my formal academic career was my discovery that theoretical linguists were, perhaps ironically given the subject matter of "language", often remarkably terrible at actually *using* language to communicate. I would hazard that this overlapping use of "ergative" might be one such example. Which use came first, I have no idea, but the latter party did the world a disservice by not avoiding this ambiguity by choosing or coining a different term.
CodeCat, if your use of "ergative" is in reference to the definition Ruakh gives here, I cede the point. My understanding of "ergative" is solely based on what little I've read of ergative-absolutive languages and the fundamentally different verbal deictics used therein.
More generally, I would be happier if we could ourselves, here at the EN WT, *avoid* such ambiguities. I personally don't find this description of English verbs as "ergative" to be terribly useful, and as this entire thread has hopefully illustrated, such nomenclature can be quite confusing on the one hand, and on the other, perhaps overly technical as DCDuring has posited. Many, many English verbs could meet this quite loose definition of "ergative" as given above. For most non-academic types, I argue that it's enough to say that such-and-such verb is *both* transitive and intransitive, and leave it at that as far as grammatical context labels go. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:03, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I was talking about ergative verbs, I think I explained that in the discussion too. They are distinct from the ergative case, although they are related. Both are about the identical treatment of intransitive subject and transitive object as patient: the ergative case is used as subject for intransitive verbs and as object for transitive verbs (which suggests that it originally indicated the patient), while ergative verbs treat their subject as patient when in transitive, but their object as patient when intransitive. The relationship becomes very clear in a language with an ergative case, if you suppose that the ergative case always indicates the patient, then all verbs are automatically ergative or "passive" in nature. There is actually a system that aligns both of these together into a system called active-stative, in which there actually is a single case for the agent and another for the patient. In such a language, verbs may take either the agent case (nominative/absolutive) or patient case (accusative/ergative) or both depending on their meaning. It is thought that the ancestor of Proto-Indo-European was such a language, and that our modern accusative case derives from the ancient patient case. That, in turn, might explain why neuter nouns don't have a distinct nominative case: in the old language, they were "inanimate" nouns that rarely acted as agent, and thus did not need a separate agent case. —CodeCat 14:31, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Rather that I didn't know that "ergative" meant anything other than the senses used for Ergative-absolutive_language until Ruakh's note above, your distinction in the thread at Wiktionary:TEA#Template:ergative was lost on me. You mentioned "ergative verbs", but didn't explain that, likely on the assumption that everyone was talking about the same thing. My primary understanding of "ergative" was in regard to a verb paradigm where transitive verb objects and intransitive verb subjects are treated grammatically identically. This structure does not happen in any PIE-derived language that I'm aware of, and it certainly doesn't happen in English. That's probably simply a product of what I've been exposed to, but it's what I've got to work from.
  • The running example here of "to melt" strongly suggests that this working defintion of "ergative" is not a useful distinction in English. As you note, this label indicates "the identical treatment of intransitive subject and transitive object as patient", but as "to melt" functions in English, this doesn't happen -- objects are treated differently than subjects. Yes, superficially they appear to be treated the same, as in DCDuring's example of "the ice melts; he melts the ice". However, swapping the pronoun for the ice makes it clear that these two verb uses do not involve identical treatment of subject and object: "he melts; she melts him".
If the "ergative" label simply means that a verb can be used both transitively and intransitively, I don't think that's very useful as a distinction. Any English verb that does not semantically require an object can probably be used this way. For example, sit, stand, grow, reach...
Again with "to melt", if the etymology of the English term aligns with that of Dutch smelten, then we have a verb where an intransitive form melded with its causative/transitive counterpart to produce the modern word. That doesn't sound terribly "ergative" either, in terms of treating the "subject as patient when in transitive, but their object as patient when intransitive".
(Though presumably you meant that the other way round? "subject as patient when _intransitive_, but their object as patient when _transitive_"?)
  • Of course, it's entirely possible that I've gotten my head wrapped around the wrong ideas. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 15:16, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Actually, the case of "he melts; she melts him" is precisely what makes ergative verbs distinct. Here, the case marking on the pronouns shows unambiguously which word is the subject and which is the object. Yet, in the first case the subject is the one being melted, while in the second it's the object. That is what ergative verbs are all about. Normal verbs don't behave that way, the subject is either always the agent (as in he cooked, he cooked food) or always the patient and the verb is intransitive (he fell). But in ergative verbs, the role of agent and patient depends on the presence or absence of an object, which is very different from the behaviour of other optionally-transitive verbs. In a sense, ergative verbs without an object are implicitly passive, so the passive formation is redundant: he melts is the same as he is melted. There is a slight distinction in meaning, though, which relates to the implication of an agent. In he is melted, there is the implication that something is melting him, even if that person is not explicitly mentioned. On the other hand he melts carries no such implication, it is as if the action occurred "by itself". Such an action that occurs by itself without a clear agent is called mediopassive or middle voice, and has a very strong connection with the reflexive. Many languages form a mediopassive through reflexivity (such that he melts is the same as he melts himself). This is common in the Romance and Slavic languages, and it's also the origin of the (medio)passive in the North Germanic languages. —CodeCat 15:35, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Okay, I feel like we're getting somewhere that might resemble common ground or a shared frame of reference.  :) I need to chew on this some; I'll write more later once I have my thoughts in order. In the meantime, it looks like this bit of yours is key: "in ergative verbs, the role of agent and patient depends on the presence or absence of an object, which is very different from the behaviour of other optionally-transitive verbs." I don't suppose you could give a few examples of ergative verbs, and a few examples of non-ergative optionally-transitive verbs? I think I'd be able to grok this better if I had more text to work with.  :) -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 16:44, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Some examples of verbs that are ergative in some or all senses: break, melt, sink, burst, starve, turn, float, explode, improve, heal, begin, bounce, turn, boil, fry, shrink, land. —CodeCat 18:21, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Do you have any instances of non-ergative optionally-transitive verbs for comparison purposes? -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
I would say that it includes most of the remaining transitive verbs, because you can often leave out the object with the implication that there is one. cook is a good example because it contrasts with boil, which is ergative. However, cook is ergative in the phrase What's cooking?, while it's implicitly transitive in I'm cooking.. That brings up an important point too: ergativeness is a property of specific senses or uses, that's why we use it as a context label. A verb that is passive when used intransitively in one sense may be active in another sense. heal in particular is a nice example because neither of the senses is really more frequent or more likely to be understood. I heal could plausibly mean both that your health is getting better, or that you're making someone else's health better. So in that case, the transitive and the ergative sense are more or less equally used. In the case of turn or land it's actually ambiguous whether the meaning is active or passive, because it's not really clear whether you're speaking of yourself or your vehicle. If you are a pilot who has just landed, is the implication that you landed your plane (transitive) or that you were landed yourself (ergative)? —CodeCat 00:41, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Except "optionally-transitive" != "transitive with unstated object". A verb usage like "I eat" or "I cook" is transitive regardless of whether there is any explicit object. Depending on context, the object might be the "I" in a passive role with the agent left unstated, but the verb itself is inherently transitive.
Secondarily, you mention passivity, but in all of the putative ergative verbs listed above that have Germanic etymologies given here on the EN WT, what the etymologies show are examples of intransitive verbs (where the action occurred 'by itself') that have apparently merged with their causative forms. C.f. sink, fall, smelt (relevant etym found at smelten), even heal (which notably is traced to the proto-Germanic form *hailijanan, with the tell-tale causative infix -ij-, implying an intransitive form *hailanan). The verbs of Romance heritage are harder to parse, as Latin entries here don't mark transitivity, and the defs given are often ambiguous, such as "I parch" as the def for one of the senses of frigo, or "I turn" for torno. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 04:51, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Actually the suffix -ij- had several different uses in Germanic. One was to derive causatives, but it was also widely used to create verbs from nouns or adjectives. *hailijanan is from *hailaz (whole). In Germanic, it was mostly likely a strictly transitive verb, though. In any case, there are plenty of verbs that didn't merge with their causatives. sink is a fairly certain example (it remains intransitive in Dutch, its causative is formed with the auxiliary doen), and in general any verb with either -i- or an original back vowel in the root can't be an original causative, because causatives normally had o-grade root and umlaut. —CodeCat 13:32, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Ran across something the other day that brought this back to mind.
From your description above, and from the unclear article at w:Ergative_verb, it sounds like "ergative" is meant to describe a certain use of transitive verbs. Is this correct?
If so, then semantically and etymologically, words like melt and sink and grow cannot usefully or correctly be described as ergative. For a sentence like "the boat sinks, there is no actor, no agent that is making this happen. The action in question "happens by itself". These words are fundamentally intransitive, where the modern EN transitive uses have developed from a causative sense.
This is not to say that separate causative and passive constructions could not also exist. Compare:
  • The ice melts. -- intransitive
  • The ice is being melted by her. -- passive
  • She melts the ice. -- transitive
  • She makes the ice melt. -- causative
Semantically, in the kinds of environments that humans have historically found themselves, actions like melting and freezing are precisely the kinds of actions that "happen by themselves". There doesn't need to be any actor causing the action of "melting" to happen. Similarly for freeze, sink, grow, etc.
Meanwhile, the description of "ergative" could apply quite well to verbs that are semantically inherently transitive, such as cook. "Cooking" is not something that naturally happens by itself in the kinds of environments that humans have historically found themselves; this action requires an agent, an actor. This could be something inanimate, such as "heat", but the verb semantically requires someone or something to carry out the action. Note that there is no similar causative for such verbs, precisely because there is no semantically intransitive sense. When used causatively, the implication is that A causes B to do something transitively to C.
  • He cooks the eggs. -- transitive
  • *He makes the eggs cook. -- unnatural, incorrect causative
  • He makes him cook the eggs. -- causative, still transitive
  • The eggs are being cooked by him. -- passive
  • The eggs cook. -- ergative
This last instance is where the "ergative" label finally makes sense, as I've understood your description and the description in the WP article. This could also be analyzed as a kind of passive construction where the actor carrying out the transitive action is left unstated.
Arrowred.png If my understanding of your explanation and the WP article's description of "ergative" is correct, then this label has been used incorrectly when applied to verbs that have intransitive senses (c.f. melt, sink, etc.).
Arrowred.png If instead my understanding of your explanation and the WP article's description of "ergative" is incorrect, and "ergative" just means any old verb that can be used transitively with object A and intransitively with subject A, then this label does not convey anything meaningful in English grammar contexts that is not better and more commonly expressed by simply stating that the verb in question is both transitive and intransitive (c.f. melt, sink, etc.).
Blue Glass Arrow.svg If there is some third interpretation that would resolve this apparent dichotomy, by all means please lay it out. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 16:43, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

, [edit]

These two are listed on Wiktionary:Todo/unmatched table temps. Aside from the simple possibility of not putting the definitions in a box, you can use {{der-top}} and {{der-mid}}, or alternatively use |} instead of {{der-bottom}} and the page will no longer list them. Not sure how I feel about putting definitions in a collapsible box, even when there are lots of them. Mglovesfun (talk) 17:37, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Started a thread at User_talk:Mglovesfun#Use_of_collapsible_divs_and_tables_at_.E6.84.9B.23Japanese_and_.E8.8A.9D.23Japanese. Apparently we were both typing messages to each other at the same time. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Young and Morgan[edit]

Have you got a copy of Young and Morgan's Lexicon of Navajo? I found myself in a massive uni library recently and photographed chunks of several books I thought might be useful to people here, including that one. If you haven't got a copy, I can e-mail you the (~70) pages. - -sche (discuss) 00:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that'd be awesome of you! Please email it whenever you have time. I have the book on my wishlist, but the prices folks are asking are just silly. Thanks for the offer! I'll look forward to perusing those images. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Chuck Entz#Revert?[edit]

Anon was reverted at katai, but I'm not sure how the formatting should be and what senses are missing. Can you help? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 15:50, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Just nipping in for a bit, and about to crash for the night. I'm loath to dive in amidst the BP discussion on romaji entries, but I'll certainly give a look and rework as appropriate once there's an agreement on romanized entry format. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:32, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Using {{ja-romaji}} with more than one hiragana/katakana[edit]


I come across a problem with o#Japanese, e#Japanese and wa#Japanese where I put two ===Romanization=== headers for the moment. We need to cater for more than one romaji/kana match. What do you think? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:41, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah, yes, you're right. How about hira2 / kata2 params? Can you think of any situations where we'd need more than just two? -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 02:53, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Good idea. I don't know from the top of my head but how about any words where long vowels are involved, especially ō - hiragana おう, おお, おー. We could also have ===Romanization 1===, ===Romanization 2===. I can't think of having more than three, theoretically. Perhaps hira2 / kata2 and hira3 / kata3 would cover all our needs. Are you able to add new optional parameters? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:04, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Adding the new params would not be a problem -- I don't know if I'll have time to do it tonight, though, so that might have to wait until tomorrow. I think I'd prefer to use multiple params, each generating its own entry line, instead of using ===Romanization 2=== etc. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 03:21, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
OK, no rush. When you finish, please test the result on the above entries and change as appropriate. I have already updated the "About Japanese" page, as per BP outcome. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:29, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Haplology suggested problems with small っ and has added new romanisation on wa#Japanese. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Have a look at wa#Japanese and let me know what you think. {{ja-romaji}} now handles up to three each of hira & kata values. One possible change is to list hira value 1, kata value 1, hira value 2, kata value 2, etc. It currently lists all the hira, then all the kata. I've provisionally tested with different params present or missing, and it seems to work well. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:03, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Looks good. Do we ever-ever need more than three? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:15, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Not that I can think of, but it wouldn't be that hard to add more slots if we need them. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:19, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
What do we do about romaji entries for mixed hiragana/katakana entries, like イギリスじん, ウーロンちゃ, ローマじ, むねチラ, etc? Another possibility is mixed hiragana/katakana + Latin letters or numbers (katakana or Roman letters), e.g. バイQ. サンQ, 3Q. Could you please add one more optional parameter for mixed script, kana with Roman letters, kana with numbers? Duplicated this question on Haplology's talk page. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:40, 20 March 2013 (UTC)



Could you please answer this question when you have time? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:03, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Category:Japanese の-no adjectives[edit]

Hi, thanks for the explanation of older forms of Japanese. That made sense and I have a much better grasp of ancient Japanese now, although there's much more studying I need to do.

I wanted to give you a heads up on a request for deletion I made for Category:Japanese の-no adjectives here: Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Others#Category:Japanese_.E3.81.AE-no_adjectives

I don't know if you saw the section above that on ghost kanji but if not I'm sure it would benefit from your input. --Haplology (talk) 14:58, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Duly commented in both threads. Thanks for the ping! -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:13, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
That leads me to another question: would you agree to the creation of a category for -tari adjectives? A number of the uncategorized terms in the parent category Category:Japanese adjectives are those. Unless I'm missing something, any term in that category should have a child category, and if it's there, why not put it there.
When I saw an entry that read ja-adj|decl=no I noticed that {{ja-adj}} still has a decl field. I was thinking the decl field should be obsoleted and replaced with an infl field, and behind the scenes there would be a line like decl = infl;. This is not to ask you to do it per se, more to make a proposal. It's been a while since I edited any templates so it's a little scary. It's not a big deal, maybe an issue for when the template gets converted to Lua, if it ever does. --Haplology (talk) 01:22, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Re: -taru adjectives, sure, I'd be very much up for the creation of such a category. I don't know much about how to create cats, but if you want to take a stab at that, or propose on one of the fora that someone else create it, I'd lend what support I can.
Relatedly, would it be worthwhile to also create a cat for -naru adjectives? Most of these evolved into modern -na adjectives, but I dimly recall that there might be a few rarely-used ones that still take -naru but not -na (while the modern ones that usually take -na can take -naru when being all fancified, like 静かなる風景 or something). Then again, I just re-read ja:w:形容動詞, particularly sections 4 口語形容動詞の活用 and 5 文語形容動詞の活用, and I realize I might be mis-remembering, and all the -naru adjectives might now count as -na adjectives.
  • Re: decl vs. infl, I'd be happy to add an infl param to the {{ja-adj}} template. Then once I figure out bots, I can have that go through and turn all the instances of decl into infl, and then remove decl from the template.
...and, actually, I just added infl to the template, and changed all text instances of "declension" to "inflection". There was also a line in there for -no adjectives, which I commented out in light of recent discussions.  :)
Cheers, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:18, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Great. I just made an adjustment to the template myself. I replaced part that created the category for -no adjectives with one that creates a category for tari adjectives. That leads me to a question: Do you think the category should be like this: Category:Japanese たり-tari adjectives ? That's how I have it set up right now, because the template had already specified them as "たり-tari inflection" (now たり-tari inflection.) Otherwise I would have made it たる-taru... I don't know which is better. I haven't created the category yet. It's a red link e.g. at 堂堂.
Speaking of -tari (or -taru?) adjectives, and how many of them are composed of two identical kanji, just to check, do you think the lemma entry should be 堂々, rather than 堂堂? There was a discussion a while ago, I don't know where, and I think that that was the conclusion. I can see merits to either way.
As for -naru adjectives, I'm not familiar with them, but I'll look into them when I have the chance. This would be a good stage to consider them, before a whole bunch of entries have been made. --Haplology (talk) 12:05, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
  • About ending in -i or -u, I think -i is actually the traditional lemma form in JA<>JA dictionaries, as the old 終止形. I picked up on the -u ending as that's the 連体形. Modern JA doesn't distinguish between these two for regular -い adjectives, hence my confusion. I suppose we should probably follow the convention for JA<>JA grammars and use -tari as the base form.
  • About doubled-kanji spellings and lemmata, I also dimly remember that there was a discussion, but I can't recall where. My recollection is that the rough consensus was to have the fully-spelled version like 堂堂 as the lemma, with the spelling that uses the kanji "ditto" mark like 堂々 as an alt form pointing to the full spelling. A quick look in my JA<>JA dictionaries to hand shows that this is how they do it; that's not the be-all-and-end-all of the matter for how we do it here, but it is perhaps a useful comparison.
  • About -naru adjectives, yes, taking our time would probably be good.  :) Manually reworking large data sets can be a little less than an efficient use of our resources, though sometimes that's the best we can do. (Providing me more incentive to figure out bots...)
Cheers, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:51, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Great, in that case red linked category is fine the way it is. It feels a bit early to create it now but I'll create that category after a while if nobody else does.
I did have misgivings about treating 時々 as a lemma, because every other dictionary I have seen does not. It was indeed only a rough consensus, and I thought it was the other way. I must have misremembered. I'll have to dig it up and take a look. Either way I think it should be brought up again and settled for sure. Maybe a discussion for the BP? No other pages seem to get any attention. Thankfully at this stage, implementing a change is still not a huge task. --Haplology (talk) 02:31, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Entries spelled with 々[edit]

(relevant text copied from above)

Speaking of -tari (or -taru?) adjectives, and how many of them are composed of two identical kanji, just to check, do you think the lemma entry should be 堂々, rather than 堂堂? There was a discussion a while ago, I don't know where, and I think that that was the conclusion. I can see merits to either way.

  • About doubled-kanji spellings and lemmata, I also dimly remember that there was a discussion, but I can't recall where. My recollection is that the rough consensus was to have the fully-spelled version like 堂堂 as the lemma, with the spelling that uses the kanji "ditto" mark like 堂々 as an alt form pointing to the full spelling. A quick look in my JA<>JA dictionaries to hand shows that this is how they do it; that's not the be-all-and-end-all of the matter for how we do it here, but it is perhaps a useful comparison.
I did have misgivings about treating 時々 as a lemma, because every other dictionary I have seen does not. It was indeed only a rough consensus, and I thought it was the other way. I must have misremembered. I'll have to dig it up and take a look. Either way I think it should be brought up again and settled for sure. Maybe a discussion for the BP? No other pages seem to get any attention. Thankfully at this stage, implementing a change is still not a huge task. --Haplology (talk) 02:31, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

(new text)

This is the discussion, if it's long enough to be called a discussion, that I was thinking of: Wiktionary_talk:About_Japanese#.7E.E3.80.85. There may have been another one somewhere. How about calling those terms abbreviations, as in 隆々? I'm not sure if they're truly abbreviations or just alternative forms. There is also this category Category:Japanese terms spelled with 々 (I wrote the note at the top by the way), and while nothing is wrong with the category as far as I can tell, most of the members have 々 in {{ja-kanjitab}} which is not technically correct if I understand correctly that 々 is not a kanji. I'm thinking that at some point I will remove 々 from kanjitab and put in the category link so that the terms still appear in "Category:Japanese terms spelled with 々." --Haplology (talk) 06:27, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
  • As best I understand it, is a ditto mark, but just for kanji. There's a different ditto mark for kana, , which can take the 濁点 as . More at ja:々.
I'm not really wedded to using either full spellings or dittoed spellings as the lemma, so long as both exist so users can at least get to the lemma regardless of which spelling they enter. If you have a definite opinion on the matter, I'm happy to defer to you.  :)
(FWIW, I don't think we should use the kana ditto mark in lemmata, as that seems to be much more rarely used in modern JA.) -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:38, 25 March 2013 (UTC)



Dan Polansky is initiating a vote on Japanese romaji. Wiktionary:Votes#Japanese_Romaji_romanization_-_format_and_content --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 21:27, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I see you already took an active part in the discussion. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:15, 23 March 2013 (UTC)


Your Wikipedia edit here caused me to ponder Wikipedia:Tsushima Island#Territorial claims and disputes. As you know, your Wikipedia talk page encouraged everyone to reach out to you in this venue.

Please take a look at Wikipedia:Talk:Tsushima Island#Due and undue weight. Do you have any comments? --Ansei (talk) 18:37, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

My edit was just a maintenance reaction to what appeared to be POV-pushing vandalism, consisting of the blanking of that section by an editor with only that edit in their history. FWIW, I'd be fine with the creation of a separate "dispute" page. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:43, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:Japanese romaji without a main entry[edit]


I have added some handling into Template:ja-romaji to add romanisation without a main entry into Category:Japanese romaji without a main entry. Wyang and Metaknowledge also joined in trying but it still doesn't work producing false positives, like -age. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Wyang has fixed it. The false positives include only those, which used deprecated parameters - hira, hira2, hira3, kata, kata2 and kata3. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Sequence of rendering of a page[edit]

In your discussion of {{ja-romaji}} you referred to the bot operating on page after the templates had been expanded. What is the sequence in which templates, Lua/Scribunto, HTML, CSS, and JS operate? It is easier for me to find out about anything that happens, say, within CSS (general vs. user CSS), than to get the big picture for this wiki. DCDuring TALK 00:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that post was mostly surmising ("a surmise"? "a surmisation"? "a surm"?), and not a definite statement; but I do remember reading something maybe on the meta site about how templates get expanded. I'll see if I can find that. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 16:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
That said, the wikicode used when invoking {{ja-romaji}} does *not* include any # def numbers on individual lines. Since that's what KassadBot is looking for (as I understand it), and since KassadBot isn't flagging pages using {{ja-romaji}}, the only really likely explanation at this point is that KassadBot is seeing the page after template expansion.
I'm curious about this, though, so I'll keep looking. I'll post here if I find anything more.
HTH, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:05, 5 April 2013 (UTC)



What do you think of the template documentation? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:42, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I think it's fine for now. I confess I'm loath to put much effort into the docs until the discussion about the template output format is resolved...  :-\ -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I thought it was important to document what the template is doing, synchronise with About Japanese page a bit, show how it creates the definition line, why and how it puts limitations on romaji entry structure. Well, you voted against the vote but we still have to "sell" the new solution somehow. The clearer the documentation is, the less assumptions and false accusations the project will cause. There's no going back, IMO, every single romaji entry has been converted to the new style, only some abbreviations are left (their structure can be discussed later) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:41, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Template:ja new[edit]


A great new tool for accelerated ja entry creation by User:Wyang. See also Haplology's talk page. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:34, 12 April 2013 (UTC)


The etymology section currently reflects what Wikipedia says, but kogal previously claimed it was "disputed" (I changed that one to match the Japanese entry) and Anatoli had put this etymology up, which I suppose is also possible. Do you have a reference work we can check to get a trustworthy opinion on which etymology is correct? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:35, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The JA WP article lists some sources and gives more background. It sounds like the etymology is unclear, as is often the case with slang, with multiple possible derivations. The gyaru part on the end is consistent, while the ko part on the front could be from at least three identifiable terms. I've updated the コギャル entry accordingly. Let me know what you think. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 21:23, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Looks good, but I edited the kogal page to point more clearly to the Japanese etymology and I added the gyaru part in because 1) it's known for sure and 2) it categorises the word as a twice-borrowed term, which is a category I'm trying to build up. Thanks! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:52, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


You have mi-1 on your user page, so could you have a look at this? —CodeCat 16:45, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Ta, looks like someone else pitched in. Just as well; work on my end has hotted up to where I can't contribute here as much as in the past, and my Māori skills are basic enough that I'm not sure how much I could have helped. I've also discovered that one of my prized Māori resources (the Te Matatiki dictionary) has gone missing, probably (hopefully?) just stuck in a box somewhere from the last time we moved. Anyway, cheers / kia ora! -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 21:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

demo frequency list[edit]

Hi, I hope this message finds you well. I just wanted to show you the first presentable result of a project I've been working on, namely a frequency list drawn from Japanese Wikipedia. I used JUMAN as the morphological analyzer, and I believe that it does a pretty good job, although it stumbles sometimes (e.g. number 329, 他の). Fortunately it appears that WT has very good coverage of the top 1000 words, and with just a little more effort all of them will be covered. Let me know what you think. Thanks! --Haplology (talk) 10:05, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Interesting! And good to know some more about the deeper projects that other editors are working on.  :) I'll peruse that and see what I can add.
Odd about 他の. I thought maybe it showed up because of lots of links to that non-entry, but Special:WhatLinksHere/他の shows only five entries, and one is this page and another is your list. I'm now curious as to what algorithms JUMAN uses, and if you ran it against Wiktionary, or against something else? I'm completely ignorant as to what JUMAN is, so maybe that's the wrong question.  :)
Anyway, thank you, I'll definitely take a look. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 16:09, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
  • のだ also looks like an inappropriate inclusion -- it's a particle + copula, not a word. And what of duped entries where one is kana and the other is kanji? I see ともに as well as 共に, for instance. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 16:11, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm glad you like it. JUMAN apparently uses bigram Marcov models, but I don't understand what those are. All the heavy lifting was done by the Kurohashi-Kawahara lab at the U of Kyoto. I just fed it pages of plain text extracted from Wikipedia articles (that extractor was courtesy of a university in Italy btw.) If you're curious there's a comparison of JUMAN to three other morphological analyzers on the page of yet another analyzer called MeCab [[2]]
Thanks for calling attention to the duplicate entries. I think I had noticed that but forgotten or maybe subconsciously chosen to ignore them. Fortunately JUMAN can take a mix of hiragana and kanji and return a single lemma. E.g. given the sentence 他の人とつき合った, it returns
他の たの 他の 連体詞 11 * 0 * 0 * 0 "代表表記:他の/たの"
人 じん 人 名詞 6 普通名詞 1 * 0 * 0 "代表表記:人/じん 漢字読み:音 カテゴリ:人"
@ 人 ひと 人 名詞 6 普通名詞 1 * 0 * 0 "代表表記:人/ひと 漢字読み:訓 カテゴリ:人"
と と と 助詞 9 格助詞 1 * 0 * 0 NIL
つき合った つきあった つき合う 動詞 2 * 0 子音動詞ワ行 12 タ形 10 "代表表記:付き合う/つきあう"

That example also seems to show what happened with 他の. I'll investigate のだ. I don't know if there's a way to avoid misses like that, but on the next run I'll try to pull out the 代表表記, and that should reduce duplicated entries by quite a lot. --Haplology (talk) 17:12, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Small kana in historical spelling[edit]

I notice that you have used small kana (や, ゆ, よ) in the hhira parameter in several entries. In the dictionaries I use the historical spellings never have small kana, and from the Wikipedia article I also understand that the historical spellings did not make size distinctions. I just changed 凝集. Is there any particular reason you have put these in, or are these simply mistakes? – Krun (talk) 22:55, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Heh. I was just writing on your page.  :)
Nope, not mistakes, rather based on the historical spellings given in:
1988, 国語大辞典(新装版) (Kokugo Dai Jiten, Revised Edition) (in Japanese), Tōkyō: Shogakukan
One of my other sources is Daijirin, and that gives historical usage in half-width katakana. I thought I remembered that half-width katakana fonts don't include the subscripted glyphs for combined forms (though checking just now, I realize I was wrong about that), so the lack of smaller kana never signified with me.
I'll hold off on adding any more hhira values for the time being. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:01, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Yes, my source is the Sūpā-Daijirin (which uses hiragana; in my version, anyway). This and the Daijisen (which uses katakana) [3] both use only full size kana. I can see the practicality of the small kana, especially for clarity in long words, but they aren’t really necessary, and we should use the style which was actually used in the literature. So the question becomes: was there ever a time (before the 新仮名遣い) when these small kana were standard and widely used? If not, we should not use them. – Krun (talk) 23:24, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. I just read through the EN WP articles about the subject, and other than stating that the orthography reform occurred in 1946, none of the related articles seemed to have anything to say about when the smaller-kana versions were first used. I'll poke around the JA WP and see what they have to say about it (I suspect more). -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Still not finding as much as I'd like. The JA WP pages specifically about w:ja:拗音 and w:ja:字音仮名遣い don't have much to say about the history of the small-kana spellings. w:ja:字音仮名遣い#.E5.86.85.E5.AE.B9 (sub-section titled 内容) even uses the small-kana spellings for historical forms, but then other spellings further down the page use the full-kana renderings.
w:ja:ゃ notes that the small-kana was used in Edo-period Japanese to spell the particle ya. w:ja:ゎ lists a few historical spellings using this small-kana variant. w:ja:っ gives the most information that I can find so far, noting that small was used 1904-1908 in primary school education, with school materials reverting to full-sized pretty much until the 1946 spelling reform.
w:ja:捨て仮名#.E6.AD.B4.E5.8F.B2 (歴史) states that small-kana variants have been used for quite some time (「送りがな・添え仮名としては古くから用いられた」), but that consistent use for 拗音 has only been since 1946, and with hiragana only since 1955.
I'll stop using the small variants for hhira values. I wonder why Shogakukan uses them? -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:02, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Formatting Assist[edit]

Hello, Eirikr. Thank you for the minor formatting you performed on 女, which indicates how I should be formatting similar data for other characters. I've uploaded about 60 entries to this point, and am waiting to see what kind of feedback is generated. When I return to editing, I'll follow your example and amend the formatting of these 60 characters. Thanks again. Lawrence J. Howell (talk) 01:03, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

No worries, happy to help. You seem to be working in earnest, which I can appreciate, and I'm aware of the challenges of getting up to speed with things here.  :)  Welcome, and good luck! -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 05:43, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm positive there was a more efficient way to go about things, one that wouldn't force me to revisit and tidy up each entry, but offering for the community's critique a representative sample of raw data appealed to me as a straightforward, open, all-cards-on-the-table approach. I expect that, once the unsustainable portions of the data have been stripped away and a serviceable foundation for the remainder laid, input from Wikitionarians with a broad range of interests will produce fascinating results during the years to come. Thank you again. Lawrence J. Howell (talk) 08:51, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

New appendix[edit]

As a participant in an associated discussion, you are invited to contribute to the list of terms and criteria at Appendix:Terms considered difficult or impossible to translate into English. Cheers,   — C M B J   10:46, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


You forgot to sign here. :) --Z 18:07, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Got interrupted, then forgot I hadn't added it and hit Save page. Thanks! -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:09, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Merida (female given name)[edit]

Merida; See my source --

  • Unfortunately, that site isn't a verifiable source, nor does it list its own sources. Websites generally aren't usable as sources. Do you have any dead-tree material confirming the name?
Then again, even the website you provide notes that Merida is the name of a Spanish city, and if that's the correct source, this name would have entered English from Spanish, not from Latin. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:31, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Aizen Myoo[edit]

According to "Shinto/Buddhism - Angelfire", (, the name for the Shinto deity of love is called "Aizen Myoo", but according to you that's wrong. Who is the Shinto deity of love? 01:22, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Hey, you respond! That's good.
The main problems there were ... well, let me just list the big ones.
  1. This isn't an English term.
  2. The name was spelled wrong.
  3. This isn't a love god, as in a god about falling in love and going gooey-eyed. Have you seen any pictures? This deity is commonly shown sitting on a lotus blossom, with many arms, with all-red skin, with bared fangs, carrying a bow and arrow, as male, and with a distinctly angry face. I can't think of much else that would be less like a Shintō love god and still humanoid.
  4. Even in terms of what the deity might be worshipped for, regardless of appearance, the closest I can get to finding anything about "love" per se is that one might pray to Aizen Myōō asking to be better liked and respected in the world. Other common objects of prayer were apparently health, wealth, and the capitulation of one's enemies. Again, not a love god.
  5. Granted, lust is part of his purview, but only in terms of going beyond earthly desires to reach spiritual enlightenment.
  6. Aizen Myōō (note the long ō’s) is a 明王 (みょうおう, ​myōō), a Buddhist deity deriving from Hindu roots. There's a hint right in the deity's title that this might not be Shintō.
In short, random sites on the internet are not a reliable source for information when attempting to study a foreign culture. By way of example, this site claims that Benzaiten is the Japanese goddess of love, with the implication being that she's Shintō. Benzaiten is female, but 1) she's originally a Hindu figure, Saraswati (see w:Benzaiten), then Buddhist, not really Shintō; and 2) she's the godess of music, wealth, and wisdom, not love. I also spot-checked the list on the Angelfire page. Amatsu Mikaboshi, for instance, isn't the god of evil; and his name means something more like “Heaven's Jug Star”. Amida is a Buddha, not a god of death; see w:Amitābha. Nikko-Bosatsu isn't a Buddhist god, but rather a w:Boddhisattva, i.e. someone who reached enlightenment and then hung around to help others. Etc.
Try to find something with references, something that at least lists its sources. And ask questions. Time allowing, I'm happy to answer questions or even create or add to entries. But don't just jump in with unconfirmed stuff you saw somewhere some time. Compared to Wikipedia, the Wiktionary editor community isn't anywhere near as forgiving of incorrect additions. Read around, get corroboration from multiple different sources, and multiple different kinds of sources.
If you're interested in Aizen Myōō the deity, have a look at the Wikipedia article, w:Rāgarāja. FWIW, I'm working on the etymology for 伊邪那美 (​Izanami) tonight (and probably tomorrow too).
Cheers, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:52, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Arrowred.png Oh, and in answer to your question ("who is the Shinto deity of love"), I'm not sure there is one, per se. The Greek and Norse gods generally covered specific areas, but the Buddhist-Shintō syncretic pantheon isn't so narrowly focused. One deity can cover several areas, and share those with different gods. I'll keep my eyes and ears open though. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:56, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I will rephrase my earlier question; who are the Japanese deities of love?; (for example, I know that Benzaiten, as well as a goddess of luck, would be also be a goddess of luck in love, just as Bishamonten is a god of war, as well as luck.) 17:51, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Short answer: I don't know.
  • Longer answer: I'm no expert on Japanese mythology, but what I have read and heard about makes it sound like "love" as a concept doesn't work the same way in Japanese myths as it does in western myths.
  • Details: I just did a quick search of the electronic resources I have to hand for all entries containing the phrases 愛の神, 恋の神, or 恋愛の神, and didn't come up with much -- mostly just entries for the Greek and Roman gods.
FWIW, my JA-JA dictionaries describe the Saraswati-derived Benzaiten as having purview over eloquence, wealth, good luck, wisdom, and longevity, and mentions that one might pray to her in order to avoid misfortune or to achieve success. No mention of love here.
The description of the Benzaiten as one of the seven gods of good luck says that the Saraswati Benzaiten later became conflated with Kichijōten, a different goddess of good luck, and/or somewhat conflated with grain god Uga, and in this version, Benzaiten is a goddess who might grant good fortune and wealth. Again, though, no mention of love. I suppose finding love might be viewed as part of being lucky (compare the English phrase get lucky), but the various words for "love" are missing from this dictionary entry, suggesting that love isn't a very important part of Benzaiten's mythology.
The words for "love" are also missing from the JA Wikipedia article at ja:w:弁才天. The only on the page is for 愛知県 (​Aichi-ken), w:Aichi Prefecture, and is missing entirely.
  • ArrowGreen.svg I'll keep looking, but I don't expect to find much. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:21, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

つる (“crane”)[edit]

Could you please add the etymology of (tsuru, “crane”). Surely it must be related to Korean 두루미 (durumi)? – Krun (talk) 19:18, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Cool, working on it now. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:56, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
  • There are still tons of deriveds and idioms to add, as well as the derivation of the on'yomi, but the bulk of the etym stuff you were looking for should be up there now. HTH, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:27, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Arrowred.png I don't know how much you know about Korean etyms, so forgive me if I'm repeating stuff you're already aware of. Middle Korean of the mid-1400s is the oldest we can get, since Korean just wasn't a written language before then -- before the invention and promulgation of Hangul, Korean scholars wrote in Classical Chinese, much as happened in Japan until the popularization of kana. There are a few words here and there, and maybe even scraps of phrases, but since they're recorded in Chinese characters, the phonetics are pretty much lost to time. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:30, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks a lot; you were very thorough! Keep up the good work. :D – Krun (talk) 10:24, 8 June 2013 (UTC)


草薙の剣 / Kusanagi no Tsurugi; why do you keep singleing this one out, it's one of THREE of Japan's Imperial Regalia. The entries for 八咫鏡 and 八尺瓊曲玉 both mention 草薙の剣, but for some reason, you keep removing them from 草薙の剣.

Why? 02:53, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

  1. Because this entry has had a lot of encyclopedic information added to it. Wiktionary is not Wikipedia.
  2. Because a number of the additions have been incorrectly formatted, and / or incorrectly organized.
  3. Because your track record is, frankly, abysmal, and any additions by users in your IP address range are immediately suspect.
  • I'll grant you that the two other imperial treasures merit linking. I will format those appropriately.
However, ​Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi is a synonym, not a coordinate term. I will move that link to the correct header.
Arrowred.png Long term, please do more research before adding to Wiktionary. Roughly 80% of your edits are problematic at best, or just plain wrong at worst. If you intend to continue editing, I strongly recommend that you create an account. As it is, you've been editing under multiple IPs, with addresses sometimes changing within minutes. This is a big warning flag for admins, and is very likely to get your IP address blocked for a while. You seem to have little trouble changing addresses, but even so, we *do* have the facility to block IP address ranges. Your case is severe enough that we might consider doing so -- a high percentage of your edits require cleanup, revision, and / or outright deletion.
My personal ideal would be for you to 1) create an account, 2) engage the rest of the editors in conversation about meanings, content, and formatting, among other things, 3) get some Japanese-English dictionaries and other resources, 4) learn more about how to research terms, and 5) learn more about Wiktionary formatting and stylistic norms. I appreciate your interest and passion, but your energies are too often spent unproductively. I look forward to your becoming a more effective editor. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 03:10, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

What about 八咫鏡 and 八尺瓊曲玉? 03:36, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

  • I'll have a look. Thank you for asking! -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 03:39, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
  • While we have your attention: please don't use automated translators like Bing or Google Translate. They're not designed to give definitions: with the current state of technology, they can only give a crude guess as to what the meaning of a text is. here is an example of what Bing Translate does to a Japanese Wikipedia page (my favorite line is "Knife short term extended shall not extremely spicy treat in timing "). Imagine what it does to the English that you type into it. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:59, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
    • Great googaly moogaly, that's awful. But it smells distinctly like job security, for a while yet.  :) -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 04:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
      • Google Translate isn't nearly as awful (as usual, MS is behind the curve), but I still wouldn't use it to write a dictionary. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:05, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Synonyms for & [edit]

The Synonyms for & need sorting out, too. And 脇差 too. 17:55, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Added to my list. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

手かぎ手虎 & 猫手[edit]

What about 手かぎ手虎 & 猫手 (see Tekagi-shuko & neko-te), and the tekko kagi / tekagi, (the weapon that Wolverine's claws were based off of)? 02:22, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

  • I'll have to look into them.
  • Notably, neither 手かぎ手虎 nor 手鉤手虎 exist as a string anywhere in the JA WP, and the only hits for substring 手虎 were for place names. Moreover, the EN WP article at w:Tekagi-shuko is completely unsourced, so I can't even easily figure out where the article authors think they're getting their information. Also notably, I get zero hits at google books:"手鉤手虎" and only three hits for google:"手鉤手虎", with two of those being the same text where this string only appears as parts of three separate words, as 少林拳でいう月矛又手、鉤手、虎爪掌といった技で... (“In the techniques called, in Shaolin, the moon spear and hand, the hook hand, and the tiger claw...” -- bolded to match where the target JA phrase occurs). I strongly suspect that this is a bogus non-term, possibly the result of someone misunderstanding a Japanese (or even Chinese?) source text.
    • Even using hiragana for the kagi part doesn't produce anything any more promising -- google books:"手かぎ手虎" yields zero hits, and although google:手かぎ手虎" gives 37, most of these are Wiktionary or Wikipedia echoes -- google:"手かぎ手虎" -"were two of the many kakushi buki" (excluding a specific phrase used in the WP article) yields only 15 hits, of which 5 are definitely dupes, and many others may be dupes-in-translation. None of the hits are for pages actually written in Japanese, strongly suggesting that this isn't a real term.
    • 手虎 on its own doesn't generate much either: google books:"手虎" "は" (adding the は to filter for Japanese results) only nets 423 hits on the wider web, of which many appear to be either scannos or cases where the characters each belong to separate words. The few that look like possibly valid 手虎 appear to be parts of placenames. Searching google:"手虎" "は" on the wider web brings in 7,250, but many of these are again problematic -- excluding Twitter alone cuts the hits by 1.5K. Skimming through several pages of the remainder, I can't find anything relevant to any weapon called a 手虎.
    (I'm adding the above to the Talk page for the EN WP article, since it looks like that whole article might be wrong.)
  • Tekkō kagi would be spelled 手甲鉤. Note the long ō. 手甲 (てっこう, ​tekkō) == the back of the hand; (かぎ, ​kagi) here means hook. The text at w:ja:手甲鉤 mentions 手鉤 (てかぎ, ​tekagi) as an alt name.
  • There is a w:ja:猫手 page, but no images. Google searching so far produces mostly mentions and images of cat paws, since that's also what 猫手 could mean (though usually with a in the middle).

Cheers, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:52, 11 June 2013 (UTC)


What about 脇差: I made the article and added to it, but it was reverted back again and again to when I added the picture to it. 06:01, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Hello again,
Yes, the 脇差 entry is on my list. The last additions included other problems, and the image didn't give a good sense of scale -- it's hard to tell anything about size when the wakizashi is just sitting in isolation on a stand -- so ultimately it was easier to back everything out. I'd intended to set directly to reworking the entry, but then real life intervened.  :) I'll get to it today or tomorrow, however. Cheers, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 15:26, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Arrowred.png I've started the process of building up to the 脇差 entry. Working backwards into this term's constituent parts, I just finished a massive expansion of the entry; that still needs oodles of derived terms, and the on'yomi etymology and related sub-sections. Next I'll look at the verb 差す -- but probably not today, as I'm short on time. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 21:45, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

短刀 plus[edit]

Speaking of blades; is 短刀 (tantō), right? 21:59, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

What about (つるぎ, ​tsurugi), (かたな, katana), 小刀 (こがたな, kogatana; しょうとう, shōtō), 大刀 (だいとう, daitō), 木刀 (ぼくとう, bokutō), 短刀 (たんとう, tantō), 刀工 (とうこう, tōkō), 薙刀 (なぎなた, naginata), 直刀 (ちょくとう, chokutō), 日本刀 (にほんとう, nihontō), 太刀 (たち, tachi), 聖剣 (せいけん, seiken), 剣士 (けんし, kenshi), 剣術 (けんじゅつ, kenjutsu), 剣道 (けんどう, kendō), 木剣 (ぼっけん, bokken), 刀身 (とうしん, tōshin), 剣豪 (けんごう, kengō), 剣客 (けんかく, kenkaku), /, (な, na)? 04:11, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

What about 鎧通し? 00:43, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

What about ? 16:17, 1 July 2013 (UTC)


What would the kanji spelling be for a "shigehto yumi"; a unity bow; one of the sacred bows of Japan, (see ) 17:55, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

  • There isn't a kanji spelling. No Japanese word I can find would be romanized as shigehto, and there is no such sacred bow.
There *is* a kind of regular, non-sacred bow called a shigedō, spelled as 重籐, 滋籐, or 繁籐, covered in black lacquer and wrapped in rattan. However, there are many different kinds of wrapping, each with different stylistic significance. This kind of bow manufacture was first applied to single-piece wooden bows to help prevent breakage, then later to composite wood and bamboo bows. More recently, the rattan is often wrapped in 36 bands above the grip and 28 bands below the grip. Shogakukan's Kokugo Dai Jiten describes the 36 bands as representing (tori, chickens), and the 28 bands as representing 宿 (yado, inns), but I'm baffled as to what that's supposed to signify.
The JA WP article at w:ja:弓_(武器) has a section on 和弓 that mentions the 重籐の弓, but it makes zero mention of "sacred", zero mention of Oda Nobunaga, and zero mention of anything about "unity".
I'm calling "bullshit" on that website. They've gotten something wrong. It's entirely possible that there was such a tradition in the past, but it's certainly not current from what I can find. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:19, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


It looks like the kun-reading of might be かけねをする (掛け値をする) rather than かけねおする with an お. Is this correct? I think there are several entries with some errors in their readings. I believe I came across one with a reading ending in the particle は, but romanized as ha, and without spaces. Then there is the case of , where the reading じっ is romanized as JITSU in the Unihan database, although it is < *jip, and only occurs in gemination. There might be other such cases. I have also come across historical readings without a modern equivalent listed, e.g. in , , , . I wonder if we could bot-generate a list of kanji to take a look at. It could include kanji with:

  • Long readings (5+ kana) which have お, を, え, へ, は, or わ in them
  • Any on-readings with we, wo, kw, gw, au, eu, iu in them
  • Any readings ending in -fu
  • Both an on-reading ending in -ū or -ō and one ending in -tsu

Any suggestions? – Krun (talk) 20:34, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

  • I can't find any JA-JA resources that list with anything other than the readings provided by KANJIDIC, which I've learned myself can include errors, as you note. That said, ya, I think you're right. The Mandarin Tools entry gives a meaning of "fraudulent price", which would be more like 掛け値する, as you also note. Ostensibly, then, this reading should still have 送り仮名 (okurigana) of at least at the bare minimum to show the verbal inflection -- 傿る (かけねをす.る,
FWIW, this is one of those vanishingly unusual readings that I mentioned before -- this should be clearly marked as very rare to avoid confusing users.
  • About categorically tracking down likely-bogus readings, I like your idea, but I'm not sure how best to implement it. I know Haplology (talkcontribs) has some experience using maybe-applicable tools for analyzing large text corpi. Maybe we should ping him? -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:30, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I don’t think we need worry about okurigana, especially if there is no source with info on that. If we don’t have more information, I think it is enough to list the reading without a break. It also remains to be seen whether this character was ever really used to write that phrase. As I understand it, many kun-readings are mainly, or even only, a sort of official gloss for a Chinese character, i.e. only a traditional translation of the Chinese word or morpheme represented by the character and its on-yomi, and never actually used in text to represent that native word. (Compare the Korean eumhun (音訓), where the hun is always only a gloss, as Chinese characters are only used with their eum (音), for their Chinese meaning or as some sort of ateji, whereas their corresponding native Korean words are written with hangul.) In such cases I think we must point users to the most usual kanji spelling(s) of the word or phrase in question. – Krun (talk) 09:57, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes, certainly, okurigana only if we can find instances of it. You remind me that the kun readings in kanbun often don't have any okurigana, which certainly makes reading the Man'yōshū an interesting challenge, even after folks have been kind enough to render the text in modern fonts instead of the earliest extant forms written in ancient cursive.  :)
I've tweaked the entry based in part on your suggestion here. Have a look and adjust as you deem fit. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 15:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


What about Ippon-Datara?; I never seem to find a straight answer as to the spelling in Kanji. 21:54, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Hmm. Well, in the absence of any context, ippon would presumably be 一本 (​ippon), i.e. “one straight slender long thing”. But then the only term I can find that might be romanized as datara or tatara (assuming rendaku) would be 蹈鞴, , (tatara, foot bellows; a furnace using a foot bellows), but then I don't think these would be counted using the (​hon) counter, since they aren't long and skinny. Googling for google:"一本蹈鞴" turns up 82 hits for me at the moment, the first page of which don't seem to have anything to do with foot bellows, but do all seem to be in Chinese, and mostly related to some sort of manga.
一本だたら: Ippon-Datara, “One-legged Smith”
... One of the links is to the ZH WP, w:zh:日本妖怪列表, a loooong table which lists 一本蹈鞴 through to the JA WP article at w:ja:一本だたら. That article makes it clear that the ippon part refers to “one foot” as a property of this particular monster, while the tatara portion refers to the process of making steel, as some legends state that this monster lives in or near iron ore mines, and / or as an allusion to the somewhat mangled appearance of many smiths after a hard working life, and / or as an allusion to the one-eyed and crippled appearance of the forge god Kagutsuchi. So the monster's name might be parsed as something like “One-legged Smith”.
The JA article also lists an alternate kanji spelling of 一本踏鞴, adding 踏鞴 to the list of possible spellings for tatara. However, the JA WP article mostly just spells the tatara part in kana, with the rendaku, for 一本だたら.
ArrowGreen.svg So the answer about the kanji spelling is that the lemma form would probably be 一本だたら, with alternate spelling entries at 一本踏鞴 and 一本蹈鞴. It appears that the theoretically possible spellings of 一本炉 and 一本鑪 don't actually get much use.
HTH, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:19, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Arrowred.png Um, Ippon-Datara is most definitely *not* a synonym for Kagutsuchi etc. This is a kind of 妖怪 (yōkai, traditional Japanese monster). -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:27, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

That's Amanomahitotsu, not Kagutsuchi. 00:41, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Where are you getting your information for Ippon-Datara?
Ippon-Datara is *not* a kami of any sort. Ippon-Datara is a yōkai, i.e. a monster / bogeyman / goblin / thingie. Here is a decent explanation in English that matches what I've read in Japanese.
There is no EN Wikipedia article for w:Ippon-Datara. Stop adding WP links to non-existent articles.
Amanomahitotsu == Amatsumara == Kajishin. I got Kajishin and Kagutsuchi crossed in my head; apologies for that confusion. One means "forge god" and the other is a god of the forge, but Kagutsuchi doesn't appear to be identified with Amamnomahitotsu / Amatsumara. Regardless, none of these four names or titles is a synonym for Ippon-Datara. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:33, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


I keep getting mixed answers, all I want is a straight answer, please-&-thank-you 17:46, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh my...
Never, and I mean never, take anything from a manga-related source at face value for etymological purposes.
Some of the issues with the information in that Trivia section:
  • Deidarabotchi is an alternate for Daidarabotchi, but does *not* mean giant at all -- it's a name. The dai at the front is probably (dai, big). The dara in the middle is probably related to だれる (dareru, to be dull, to become uninteresting) and だらだら (daradara, bumping, thumping; dragging along). The botchi on the end shows up in various places, and is probably a diminutive corruption of 坊ちゃん (botchan, boy; son, sonny). The name could thus be parsed as “big oaf boy”. Meanwhile, giant in Japanese is 巨人 (​kyojin).
Daidarabotchi is a kind of giant in various tales, and these giants have been responsible for creating different landscape features. This might be a mythological recollection of old creation gods. See ja:w:ダイダラボッチ for more detail, and w:Daidarabotchi for an English version, but the EN WP article is way too short, and is incorrect in some ways (describes this as "a gigantic yōkai ... his size", while the JA WP article makes it clear that this was many different giant myths, often with different names).
  • Ippon-Datara is a yōkai, not a kami. I haven't run into any legend stating that Ippon-Datara *is* Amanomahitotsu, though there are references to broad similarities in being one-eyed. I have trouble imagining a major god like Amanomahitotsu being reduced so much in common myth, without there being some massive upheaval in the culture, such as an invasion by a different ethnicity that brought their own myths which replaced the older ones. Since Japan has no such history, I find it very unlikely that Ippon-Datara could be Amanomahitotsu.
  • "Datara" is not a Japanese term. The closest would be tatara as described further above. This would never appear on its own with the first consonant voiced as "d" -- that only happens in rendaku, i.e. in compounds.
What manga writers do is what many writers do -- they trawl the older tales for ideas, and then mix and match and synthesize to come up with something new and original, and ideally interesting. But in the process, much of the origins of their ideas get obscured.
Blue Glass Arrow.svg I'm not sure what you mean by mixed answers. If you're referring to the kanji spelling for Ippon-Datara, I laid it all out for you above. To recap, there are multiple possible spellings, of which 一本だたら should be the main entry, and 一本踏鞴 and 一本蹈鞴 should be stub entries using {{alternative spelling of}} to point back to 一本だたら.
If you're referring to something else, could you be more explicit? What mixed answers are you getting? And what question are you asking? -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:53, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


What do you think of 青金石 (せいきんせき, seikinseki) -- lapis lazuli? 23:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Sounds about right to me. JamesjiaoTC 23:30, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I strongly suspect this was borrowed from Chinese, probably Middle Chinese. I doubt that this was coined in Japanese, which is what the etym at 青金石#Japanese currently says.
Also, in Japanese, 青金石 means lazurite, i.e. one of the main constituent minerals that make up lapis lazuli. The Japanese for lapis lazuli is given in Shogakukan as 瑠璃, 琉璃 (​ruri). -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:44, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


I just want to ask you a few things about readings. I saw a strange thing on ja.wikt about ; it said: 呉音 : キョウ(キャウ)(古代音:クヰャウ). This last one really surprised me, so I googled and found this elsewhere as well as others like クヰャク. Are these legitimate readings or just some transcription of what it originally might have sounded like in Japanese or even in the Chinese dialect from which the reading was borrowed? I also want to ask about presumably one-mora readings with kw-/gw-, like クヱ, グヰ; are these possible, or only hypothetical? I ask, because I often see ki and/or ke listed alongside a kwai, so it looks as if the w was never included in the shorter readings. The last question is about Chinese -m; on I copied historical readings ending in -む from the ja.wikt, but I am having doubts about them. I had always understood that before the Meiji era there was no spelling distinction between mu and moraic N anyway. Some of the -n endings come from Chinese -m, some from Chinese -n, and others from native ni, mi, mu, bu, etc., but was there ever a distinction in spelling (or pronunciation, for that matter)? – Krun (talk) 19:19, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that's a lot.  :)
I've got to shift gears here shortly, so I don't have a lot of time at the mo', but looking into , that *is* weird. That would presumably have to be a transcription of the pre-borrowed Chinese pronunciation, as the historical goon and kan'on are the furthest back we get for a given reading in Japanese, as far as I've understood things.
Exploring the zh:兄 entry shows a Middle Chinese reading of xjwæng and a reconstructed Old Chinese reading of /*m̥raŋ/, nothing even vaguely resembling クヰャウ /kwjau/. I'd be tempted to just flat-out call "bullshit" on the JA WT entry, as none of these even have a /k/ sound, but then I also see that the zh:兄 entry lists an alternate reading of kuàng -- but with no explanation of where this came from or what historical provenance it might have. I suppose it's possible that an initial sound of /kju/ could have palatalized further in some dialect into modern xio- and un-palatalized (if that's a word) into ku- in another dialect.
But this is only speculation, and with no sources I can find to back this up, and none given for the JA WT entry reading, I don't feel comfortable including that anywhere in our entry. I'll look more into this later as time allows.
And I'll address your other points later too, and sooner than the above.  :) -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
  • PS -- The 古代 reading was added in this edit by an anon, with most edits in 2006 and none since 2010. A few of their 2006 edits were reverted, but not this one. I'd take that reading with a big grain of salt.  ;) -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:47, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
ArrowGreen.svg Back to it for a bit.
  • I also want to ask about presumably one-mora readings with kw-/gw-, like クヱ, グヰ; are these possible, or only hypothetical? I ask, because I often see ki and/or ke listed alongside a kwai, so it looks as if the w was never included in the shorter readings.
I think these are actual historical readings. The JA WP article on ja:w:拗音 (yōon palatalized or labio-velarized sound, like nya or kwa) has a section called 合拗音, describing how the /kwi/, /kwe/, /gwi/, /gwe/ (/kʷi/, /kʷe/, /gʷi/, /ɡʷe/) sounds all existed in Japanese, but that the /kwa/, /gwa/ (/kʷa/, /gʷa/) pair was the only one that lasted for long past the initial borrowing stage. These apparently finally converged with /ka/, /ga/ some time during the Edo and Meiji periods, relatively recently.
The header paragraph on ja:w:拗音 also explains that these combinations were still counted as one mora.
  • The last question is about Chinese -m; on I copied historical readings ending in -む from the ja.wikt, but I am having doubts about them. I had always understood that before the Meiji era there was no spelling distinction between mu and moraic N anyway. Some of the -n endings come from Chinese -m, some from Chinese -n, and others from native ni, mi, mu, bu, etc., but was there ever a distinction in spelling (or pronunciation, for that matter)?
I'll have to read up on this a bit. I dimly recall that む was read mostly as /mu/, with the /ɴ/ pronunciation developing later. I'm not familiar with any other kana being read as /ɴ/, so any change like /ni/ > /ɴ/ or /bu/ > /ɴ/ would be new to me. There are some clear cases of abbreviation or contraction, like の turning into ん, such as in 桜ん坊 or 赤ん坊, or み turning into ん over time, such as in the derivation of modern (​fuda) from earlier uncontracted 文板 (​fumiita) (/fumiita/ > /fumita/ > /funda/ > /fuda/), but these are cases of phonetic changes eventually being represented in the spelling, not of the kana actually being read that way.
But maybe that kind of gradual contraction is what you meant?
Suffice to say, historical spellings that include む did, as best I know so far, actually use a pronunciation of /mu/, at least in formal, non-contracted speech. (Compare ending す in modern Japanese -- this often contracts to /s/, but in formal or careful speech, you will hear speakers actually enunciate this as /su/.) In fact, the hiragana ん evolved from a cursive form of , an alternate character (変体仮名 (​hentaigana)) for む. The ja:w:ん article has a section titled 「ん」が日本語に現れる時期, stating that the ん kana and /ɴ/ reading only appear in the Muromachi period, and that /mu/ was probably read as-is before this.
Anyway, let me know if that answers your questions, and if not, I'll have another excuse to study.  :) -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:55, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The kuang4 reading of 兄 (< xjwæng < *m̥raŋ, "elder brother") comes from its derivative glyph (< xjwangH < *m̥aŋ-s, "situation; to compare; more; besides"). MC x- corresponds regularly to Japanese k- (eg. ). I guess kwjau represents a moderately early stage of borrowing, after MC x- and -aŋ were approximated with native k- and -au, but before the Japanese finally gave up on pronouncing this too-difficult double glide + diphthong. Wyang (talk) 13:51, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

and [edit]

There is something fishy about the historical readings of じょう (“lock”). Daijirin lists this as one entry, but gives ぢやう as the historical reading for the spelling , but じやう for /. You have given じやう for 錠, of which it can hardly be an authentic on-reading, since Chinese has d- and other Japanese readings also have t-. The じょう readign of 鎖, however, you give as ぢやう, which is plausible since it is a kan’yōon reading anyway, but still, Daijirin gives じやう, so I don’t know what to make of it. – Krun (talk) 11:08, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Yes, Daijirin I've found useful as a general reference, but they're pretty lean on etymological details. Shogakukan has more information on that score. To quote:

補注 「錠」の字には元来、「じょうまえ」の意はない。「鎖(鏁)」をサウとよんだ例があるところから、ジャウはこのサウの変化かといわれる。

Looking further at , the right-hand element on its own () also has the on'yomi of じょう < ぢやう, same as for , so the change for from ​ to ​ was probably the influence of this other character of similar meaning. I'll reword the etym at accordingly, and make sure the hhira values are consistent. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:58, 22 June 2013 (UTC)


What about 変身? 00:31, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Gawdawful is the word that comes to mind. Dog's breakfast is another possible descriptor. I've just added the etym & pronunciation and fixed the defs. Usexes still needed, する verb still needed, coords needs substantial trimming & formatting, etc. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:05, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

竹蜻蛉 plus[edit]

What about 竹蜻蛉? 17:59, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Updated. Have a look at the wikicode -- I notice that you have a habit of adding "lit.: xxx" to etym lines, but that's not actually how we do etymologies here. I updated the entry to use the fully-templatized formatting that's standard for Japanese compounds. Cheers, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:46, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

What about 斬馬刀, 経絡系, (and 点穴 (てんけつ, tenketsu), 急所 (きゅうしょ, kyūsho), 穴位 (けつい, ketsui)), and 羅針盤? 16:02, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

短刀 plus[edit]

What about 短刀 &:

  • (つるぎ, ​tsurugi)
  • 小刀 (こがたな, kogatana; しょうとう, shōtō)
  • 大刀 (だいとう, daitō)
  • 木刀 (ぼくとう, bokutō)
  • 短刀 (たんとう, tantō)
  • 刀工 (とうこう, tōkō)
  • 直刀 (ちょくとう, chokutō)
  • 日本刀 (にほんとう, nihontō)
  • 太刀 (たち, tachi)
  • 聖剣 (せいけん, seiken)
  • 剣士 (けんし, kenshi)
  • 剣術 (けんじゅつ, kenjutsu)
  • 剣道 (けんどう, kendō)
  • 木剣 (ぼっけん, bokken)
  • 刀身 (とうしん, tōshin)
  • 剣豪 (けんごう, kengō)
  • 剣客 (けんかく, kenkaku)
  • /
  • (な, na)

? 01:08, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Any chance you might register and use an account? Not being able to communicate with you was the main reason we started blocking you every time we saw your edits. I can give you our standard welcome, which has a lot of links explaining how to do things. If you have problems about getting emails, you can set up a gmail or hotmail account to set as your user email address (I have my account set up that way, but mostly because hotmail is what I use for email most of the time), or change your settings so you only receive a couple of emails to get the account started, and to reset your password (if needed). Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 00:02, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I have tried, but for some reason it won't work. I cannot get Hoymail, either. Also, I cannot get software to see the characters, (Kanji etc), on my laptop, all I see are squares. I've just been trying to bring the articles to you attention. I apologise if any of my information was bad. 15:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

What about 短刀 (tantō)? 23:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Five Dhyani Buddhas[edit]

What about 観音菩薩 (Kannon Bosatsu), and the other four of the Five Dhyani Buddhas: 15:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Arrowred.png I'll have a look.
FWIW, 観音 is much more commonly read as かんのん (Kannon) due to a phenomenon known as 連声 (​renjō). It's a bit similar to how a turns into an before words that start with vowels, or how did you turns into didja in running speech.
Also, I created {{ja-five-dhyani}} for inclusion in the ====Coordinate terms==== sections of the relevant entries. Have a look at the wikicode for 大日如来 for an example of use.
Cheers, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:03, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
PS -- Are you the same user having trouble displaying Japanese on your laptop? -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:03, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes. 22:32, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


? What is the kanji spelling for "Bakuyohsaku"? (See Monkey 2nd season ep., "The Land With Two Suns") I think that the hiragana spelling is "ばくよいさく". 23:25, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Assuming that the romaji here is representative, the kana would most likely be ばくようさく. And as for the kanji, I haven't the foggiest. Titles can be based on very non-standard spellings. If I were forced to guess, it might be 博奕 (bakuyō, gambling, obsolete, non-standard) + (saku, creation, title, episode). Amusingly, it might also be (baku, explosion, explosive) + 傭作 (yōsaku, employment, rare).
But probably both guesses are wrong. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Arrowred.png FWIW, the Japanese title of that episode is 妖異 太陽が二つの国 (Yōi: Taiyō ga Futatsu no Kuni, “Mystery: The Land with Two Suns”). Still not sure where bakuyōsaku fits into this. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:23, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

If you've watched the episode, (see also; you'll know that it is the name of a weapon that even Monkey admits rivals his "Magic Wishing Staff". Whilst the subtitles say that "Bakuyohsaku" is a arrow, the characters always seem to be refering to the great red and gold war bow. 15:27, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

categories for kanji readings[edit]

Hi, I wanted to get your feedback on an idea I had for new categories. As an example, I added what I had in mind to 念力, and I was thinking that those would go into two parent categories each, the preexisting one for the kanji, such as Category:Japanese terms spelled with 念, and another one for the reading, like Category:Japanese terms spelled with kanji read as ねん which would in turn go in Category:Japanese_kanji_readings. Note that the two categories at 念力 are formatted differently (with or without "spelled") to compare them side by side. Sometimes readings cannot be easily segmented into kanji, but they can in the majority of cases, and I think grouping terms together that way would be very helpful for learners to get a handle on readings. BTW I pinged CodeCat about it here thinking that it would be a good idea to use ja-kanjitab to do it automatically, but I'm starting to think it would be too hairy. In that post I introduced my proposal with some background on how kanji readings have been handled up till now, but I was thinking categories would supplement rather than necessarily replace content on the entries, as complementary approaches to the same thing. --Haplology (talk) 15:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

  • I think leveraging {{ja-kanjitab}} might be a good idea, even so -- simply add optional params for the kana reading, and add the appropriate categories if these params have values, or ignore them if they're empty.
As you noted in the message to CodeCat, some multi-kanji terms also have multiple readings. In such cases, unfortunately, we're just shit out of luck, if you'll pardon the expression -- the MediaWiki software is completely incapable of adding the same index item (the term) to the same category with multiple collations (the readings). I posted on Meta about this issue here, but no one has responded. I also recall that someone here at EN WT might have posted a specific bug number for this issue, but I can't find it. Anyway, the requirements for a Japanese dictionary are just not met by the MediaWiki back-end, and there's not much we can do about that in the short term.
Arrowred.png By way of example, our entry for has nine readings, all using the appropriate format of the JA POS header template ({{ja-pos}} for pronouns, in this case). Any comprehensive Japanese dictionary should list this single-kanji term under each reading. However, our index of pronouns at Category:Japanese_pronouns only lists under (​na), for the last reading given on the page -- なんじ (​nanji). The kanji is not listed under any of the other readings, which is a rather grave shortcoming.
For that matter, categories for kanji-spelled Japanese terms should ideally list the kanji under the expected first kana -- and also give the full reading in hiragana. So the kanji should be listed under (​na) in the category listing, as it currently is, and it should also ideally have the full reading なんじ either preceding the kanji or following it.
Again, I'm not really sure how to proceed with regard to this MW categorization failure. The workaround mentioned before of creating an entry with a non-displaying character to use as a redirect *does* work, but it's not very scalable -- manually creating and maintaining so many redirect entries is a daunting tedium. I can't think of anything other than a bot approach that could begin to work acceptably. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:21, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
What about creating a dummy subpage for each reading, consisting of categories and a redirect to the lemma: kanji/reading1, kanji/reading2, kanji/reading3... If you could get someone to write a JavaScript app to add these, analogous to the accelerated entry-creator, it might not be that much more work. You would have to get consensus for adding this new type of structure, but if it works well enough, it might be worth it. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:41, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Aside from what can be done with ja-kanjitab, first I was hoping for some sort of approval for a new set of categories like the ones at 念力 and a new parent category for those. I wanted to get agreement from any interested editors before creating a whole bunch of categories. --Haplology (talk) 02:45, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Ah, apologies -- I'm perfectly fine with the creation of such new categories: Support. As you noted, I think these could be a help to learners of Japanese, since learning kanji readings is a big part of gaining functional literacy in the language. Just so long as we editors are aware of the limitations of how categories work, when dealing with multi-reading entries. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:33, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
That's good. I've gone ahead and added a number of pages, such as in Category:Japanese_terms_spelled_with_物. I was wondering if I could trouble you for your judgement in one area where I'm not sure how to proceed: for a term like 物質, would you say that 物 is read as ぶつ or ぶっ? I was a little unsure about cases of rendaku as well, which I encountered with ぢから in 底力. Thanks! --Haplology (talk) 11:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, technically, the sokuon and rendaku readings are based on the underlying readings of ぶつ and ちから in your two examples, and both compounds should ideally be listed under the ====Derived terms==== headers for the relevant readings on the and pages. I think JA-JA materials handle it this way, and I don't think I've ever seen reference books that list kanji by the sokuon or rendaku readings. However, all the references I've worked with have been intended for JA speakers, which is quite frustrating if you don't already know the language, so for non-JA-speaking learners, who might not know about sokuon or rendaku or the mechanisms by which these things happen, having the sokuon and rendaku readings might be a good idea. Perhaps sokuon and rendaku readings should be in addition to the "regular" readings? So your examples would add cats for both ぶつ and ぶっ, and for both ちから and ぢから. That way, you get the "regular" reading as the kanji would be listed in native JA-JA materials, and the modified actual in-context reading, which is all the learner has to go on. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
Ah, thanks. I understand now, and that puts the question in context. After digesting that information, at the risk of making very long category names I'm thinking of adding the qualifier "with sokuon" or "with rendaku," producing e.g. Category:Japanese terms spelled with 物 read as ぶつ with sokuon for 物質, and that would be a subcategory of Category:Japanese terms spelled with 物 read as ぶつ. Maybe those subcategories should have a category boiler template that produces a short blurb includes a link to a definition of sokuon or rendaku. I'm not completely sure about the names. Maybe "ぶっ following sokuon" or something else would be better, or maybe just leaving out a qualifier and making it a subcategory is enough, but that would be less informative. --Haplology (talk) 03:25, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

被爆者 (Japanese)[edit]

Has been FWOTD nominated specifically for the 6th August. Could you see if you could get it some citations and a pronunciation? - I don't know any Japanese. Cheers. Hyarmendacil (talk) 09:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Pardon me for jumping in, but I saw this and added one citation. Wikisource has three others, but they are all about the same thing (the law) so I didn't see much point in adding them. As for the pronunciation, I can't help much there. --Haplology (talk) 15:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Cool! We actually only need one cite to be able to feature it, so that should be fine. A pronunciation is also necessary, though. Hyarmendacil (talk) 22:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Heya folks, was out of town & out of email contact for a much-needed two-week mental reset (a.k.a. vacation :). It's too late for the 6 August listing, but I'll have a look at the entry all the same.
Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:31, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Japanese entries iroiro[edit]

Hi Eirikr, welcome back from your vacation. A week or two ago I tried making a ja-kanjitab that displayed reading info and added links to the categories I was talking about, and it looked good so I went with that and since then I've been busy in the past couple of weeks mainly with converting ja-kanjitab to {{kanji readings tab}} where possible, but also:

  • I ja-noun, ja-adj, ja-pos, ja-verb, and ja-verb-suru all call a new function in Module:ja called jsort which generates the type of sort key used for hidx etc. Therefore hidx is now completely automatic. As long as there is a hira, kata, or if the page name is any mix of kana, it works fine. In fact those templates completely ignore hidx now and probably it should be removed with AWB or something so as not to confuse newbies.
  • ja-adj actually generates romaji automatically if it is not supplied in the rom parameter. I am thinking of adding the same feature to the other templates.
  • I've been making those categories for "(specific kanji) read as (reading)" using {{ja-readingcat}}, and "all kanji read as (reading)" using {{ja-readascat}}. A new parent category for the second type is Category:Japanese terms by kanji readings
  • The new category Category:Japanese terms by reading pattern which includes Category:Japanese terms read with jūbakoyomi and Category:Japanese terms read with yutōyomi, and I was thinking of creating ones for on'yomi and kun'yomi terms. I added a yomi parameter to {{kanji readings tab}} to put a term in them, which takes yomi=o (on'yomi) k (kun'yomi) ko (yutōyomi) or ok (jūbakoyomi)
  • ja-noun, ja-verb, ja-verb-suru, and ja-adj (but not yet ja-pos) check the supplied romanization with the romanization that Module:ja would have produced, and when they don't match, it puts the term in the hidden maintenance category Category:Japanese terms with unexpected Romanizations
  • There are several new nominations of Japanese terms in RFD.
  • I'm thinking that a {{kanji readings tab}} can or should be added under every etymology, since the readings are usually different so the tabs present different information as opposed to ja-kanjitab which is the same for every etymology on an entry.

I think that's everything. As always feedback etc. is welcome. Unfortunately so far it seems like nobody else is really interested in any of the things above. Even the items in RFD are being largely ignored. --Haplology (talk) 04:20, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Wow, looks like you've been busy!  :) A quick off-the-cuff suggestion might be to include y and j as alternate argument values for yutōyomi and yutōyomi . Past there, I had noticed that you were adding {{kanji readings tab}}, but I hadn't looked into what all that template does. I think what you've described here is a whole collection of good ideas. Thank you for all of this! I think this should improve WT's usability for Japanese terms.
My WT time is more limited than it used to be, but I think I can at least look at RFD later today.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 16:13, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm very glad to hear that. It has been unnerving working alone so far, especially as this project will change the face of Japanese entries when completed. Until I started all of this I didn't know that kan'on readings existed, let alone what they were, nor yutōyomi or jūbakoyomi, so to present all of that information to the world accurately has been stressful, and any corrections or suggestions are greatly appreciated. In particular I'm uncertain about the wordings of the categories, so I'm open to suggestions about that. Out of uncertainty I haven't created "Japanese terms read with on'yomi" yet or its kun'yomi counterpart. In the meantime I've added y and j, as well as on and kun. --Haplology (talk) 16:46, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Minor note: don't think that your efforts are being ignored; people are scared to comment in RFD about entries in languages they don't know. When I post Swahili ones, they get even less attention than Japanese. But I for one do use Wiktionary for all my Japanese dictionary needs (comes up more often than you'd think when you watch this much anime), so I can definitely tell you I appreciate the work. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:50, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, that's reassuring--I was a little taken aback by the lack of responses in RFD. To me, a question about whether the name of a castle meets CFI is a question about CFI (to take the request about 伏見城 as an example), but I suppose most people see the kanji and scroll past. --Haplology (talk) 17:21, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Yeah, all the different types of readings -- whee! I've learned a lot myself in the past year or two as I really dig into Japanese etymologies, which revolve around the readings. The ways in which a single "spelling" (as a single string of kanji) can wind up with multiple readings and multiple derivations is both fascinating and daunting. But hey, if you really want to tsukaikonasu your Japanese, you've gotta go deep.  :)
FWIW, I've generally omitted reading type information for compound terms unless they're consistent -- things like 手刀打ち or フランス語 where the constituent parts use different reading types. If the whole compound is on or kun, I'll say as much, but otherwise I leave that out. Perhaps there's a better way of proceeding?
  • Also, it might be a good idea to further leverage Module:ja to generate proper romaji for kana-only entries like フランス, so we could just add {{ja-noun}} / {{ja-verb}} / etc. without any arguments, and have the template actually do all the work, as was originally envisioned (and now, with Lua for the funky string processing bits, is *finally* possible :).
Food for thought, perhaps. Cheers! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:26, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Leaving reading type information for consistent compounds sounds like the best approach. In addition I have noticed that given names and family names sometimes have mixes of readings, and as I understand, the kanji selected for given names are highly variable and more or less arbitrary, so classifying those according to reading might not be helpful.
  • The code that I added in ja-adj should do that with katakana entries as-is, and Module:ja has the code to make argument-less entries like that possible. I was pondering a universal template for every pos (ja-term?) that would assume noun with nothing, would deduce verb given a conjugation type or transitivity, would deduce adjective given inflection type, and would accept other parts of speech with flags as ja-pos does. --Haplology (talk) 18:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Cool about {{ja-adj}} -- I'll have to look at that later.
  • About a possible {{ja-term}}, I would caution against overgeneralization -- editors are already very used to the paradigm of {{[LANG]-[POS]}} for headword templates for one, and making things too general can obfuscate what they're for and how they're used. There are many reasons that single-celled organisms aren't the only life form, for instance.  :)
That said, it might make sense to have a common back end, where {{ja-noun}}, {{ja-verb}}, etc. all wind up serving as wrappers and just passing along arguments to a back-end template or module. But in doing so, I would strongly recommend that the formatting side, at least, be as clear as possible -- some recent changes to {{compound}} have changed appearances in unexpected and unwelcome ways, and now that {{compound}} is Luafied, it's not at all clear how to go about changing the formatting. (For that matter, I need to check that GP or BP thread to see if anyone's replied...)
Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:19, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
I see what you mean about over-generalizing. Probably it would be better and easier to keep the existing headword templates and it tweak the code at each one to use the new features available through Module:ja. I suppose that a backend would be possible but it would only save one or two steps, and it would add some complexity at the same time. I added automatic script detection to ja-adj, so it's fully automatic now, and for katakana or hiragana entries, all one needs to do is specify the inflection type. I updated the documentation as well. I'm planning to add the same changes to the other templates soon. --Haplology (talk) 02:40, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

ブルマ#Etymology 2[edit]

Is this word also, perchance, written *ブルーマ, reflecting the long 'ū' of its Latin etymon? I'm so meta even this acronym (talk) 18:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

  • It might be, but the only source I currently have that lists it (the EB science dictionary given in the Refs section at ブルマ) spells it with the short u. I wasn't familiar with the Latin term either until doing research for the request for ブルマ. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:00, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Hmm. Does google books:ブルーマ yield anything relevant? I'm so meta even this acronym (talk) 10:48, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Ah, OK. Well, I've added those two synonyms to the entry and have mentioned ブルーマ in the RFV thread. That's as much as I can contribute, I'm afraid. I'm so meta even this acronym (talk) 22:02, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

ろうまじ and nichiyōbi[edit]

Hi, I came across ろうまじ and afaict it's flat-out wrong and should be deleted on sight, moved to ろおまじ, or labelled as a misspelling, but the first two options are little drastic so I wanted to check with you first, especially given that the creator is a legendary admin. Also, recently I reverted your move of Nichiyōbi to nichiyōbi, but if you're sure it's a proper noun I'll take your word for it and revert it back or let it be reverted back. My thinking was that the main entry calls it a noun, as it did in your last edit to 日曜日, so maybe capitalizing it was sort of accidental. Speaking of init caps for proper nouns, ja-pos now automatically generates init-capped romanizations when set to "proper," so an entry like けんいちろう need only {{ja-pos|proper}}. --Haplology (talk) 15:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

  • Heya, things on my end have gotten extremely busy -- I'm now head of a complicated long-term project at work, and it's eating up all my time.
    • Re: ろうまじ, I'm not entirely opposed to such pages existing as redirection stubs, as users could conceivably try to look up the term that way -- and given Wiktionary's appallingly bad search feature, having actual pages for redirects is about the only way to ensure that users still find what they're looking for. That might have been what Ullmann intended in creating the page.
    • Re: [N|n]ichiyōbi, fine. I had assumed (apparently erroneously) that days of the week were proper nouns.
    • Re: {{ja-pos}} and all your other JA template streamlining, **thank you** many times over! Your work has made the templates much easier to use, and has removed a lot of the why-the-heck-doesn't-this-work-automatically, numblingly-dull tedium and redundancy required of our pre-Lua templates.
Back to the grindstone for me -- I initially hopped over here this morning to see why spellcheck was giving me grief.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:06, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


What about 深層? 00:41, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I've edited that just now. Please note that 深 means deep, not "heart". "shin" means heart but it's a different kanji: 心. --Haplology (talk) 03:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

剣 again[edit]

You still havent done anything about yet.  :( 23:00, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Entry reworked to incorporate my research on the term to date. This is a one-off, as I'm still eyeballs deep in other projects.  ;) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:05, 2 December 2013 (UTC)


What about 結びの神? 19:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I've blocked this user for abusing multiple IPs and adding generally rubbish entries to the dictionary, especially Mandarin ones. JamesjiaoTC 22:32, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

What about 結びの神? 17:10, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Blocked. JamesjiaoTC 21:17, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Eirikr can't answer right away because he is very busy right now. To check a word, a good way is to look it up on Jim Breen's online dictionary [4]. If a word is on there, it's probably OK. Haplology (talk) 03:54, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

  • Thanks, guys. I'm still way busy with other stuff right now IRL and expect to remain so for months yet. I had a moment of rare downtime today and redid the entry for , but that's probably all you'll see of me in the near term.  :( Hope those of you in the States (or at least of a USian persuasion) had a good Thanksgiving last week!  :D ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:08, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
And for all others, I hope last week went well anyway -- though likely sans turkey.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:17, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

  • Another one-off. That was ... a bit different from what actual researched sources had to say. But admittedly not as far off-base as some entries have been.  :)
Cheers, all, and Happy New Year! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Korean 하다-verbs[edit]

There was a discussion a few weeks ago about treating Korean 하다-verbs like Japanese する verbs, and unfortunately it stalled but if you have the time, your input might help move it forward and maybe toward an agreement of some sort. Haplogy () 01:42, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I second the request. The more I see hada-verbs (하다-verbs), the more I'm convinced that they are identical to suru-verbs in Japanese and similarly, they may not be separable. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:48, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Hmm. I'm not up on Korean anywhere near as much as I want to be. As such, I'm reticent to weigh in on either side of the argument. I *can* say definitively that I think any user searching for a [noun]+hada term should be able to find it, and that this entry should at least link to (if not wholly redirect to) the root [noun] term.
It would also seem to make the most sense to create one verb conjugation table for hada, and just import that statically ... but then again, maybe not.
I'll think about it over the next few days, and (time allowing) maybe try to see what KO dictionaries do. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:57, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Re: any user searching for a [noun]+hada term should be able to find it. Absolutely, that should be the case for Japanese [noun]+suru terms as well. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:24, 29 January 2014 (UTC)


Hi Eirikr. Thank you for creating 大君 (たいくん, ​taikun): that is excellent work; very detailed. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 18:44, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Cheers! My time is still more limited than I'd like (sometimes I daydream about being paid to build and maintain the JA entries here :) ), but I've got some leeway to get my feet back into the water, at least. Now to have a look at creating 可愛がる... ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:05, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Very good again. :-) I hope you don't mind that I have added the other two terms for which たいくん is also the hiragana to WT:WE. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


I think there might be some distinction between definition and definiens, though it would not much matter in 99+% of usage. Taking AHD's definition of definition: "A statement of the meaning of a word, phrase, or term, as in a dictionary entry", a definition is a full statement, which I take to be a sentence with a subject and a predicate. If so, the definiendum is the subject and the definiens the predicate (or part of the predicate) of the definition sentence. AHD's definition of definiens is "The word or words serving to define another word or expression, as in a dictionary entry", ie, NOT a statement.

Now AHD's is not my everyday understanding of the meaning of definition, but it might account for the specific technical terms. DCDuring TALK 01:45, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

  • Ta indeed for the explanation! One of the things I love about participating in this project is that there's always something new to learn...  :) Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 02:03, 7 March 2014 (UTC)


Hi. I am concerned about this entry with Japanese header created by an IP. Since the second sign is unprocessable by search and it appears as a square to me, I considered deleting it, but I deemed it suitable to theretofore refer it to a more conversant user. Does it look like a hoax to you?
P.S. Your answer in the RfV section about ‎奇人 addresses fully my concerns (to use the opportunity to reply here). The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 10:40, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

  • Looks like pure tosh. The "reference" site they gave lists completely unlikely kanji, including one that looks like cursive Devanagari with a stated definition of "we have no idea what this means". Other listed characters are regular kanji written upside down and given apparently arbitrary readings and meanings. My take: some oddball or manga might conceivably use these, but unless they are citable, they have no business here.
I'll look into it. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 02:49, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
Arrowred.png Yeah, that was rubbish. Deleted. Zero hits on Google for google:"了𠄏" "は", which is particularly damning. Not in any other resources I have to hand either, and after 25 years studying the language, I've never run across the second "kanji" here (looks like turned upside-down), nor indeed any of the bizarre variants listed at ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 04:49, 16 March 2014 (UTC)



Do we still allow するverbs? See 愛する or the new one: 恋する. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 09:06, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, the latter one is not new but badly formatted こいする. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 09:08, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Arrowred.png Found it. Took some digging around in memory and then my archive.
Some of us discussed this briefly over here: User_talk:Eirikr/Archive_2011-2012#.E9.BC.BB.E6.B1.97 Scroll down to (or search for) the text reading:

Hello. I would write kansuru for 関する...

Takasugi-san made a good case for indivisible -suru verbs, which consist (I think) entirely of single kanji + する, based in large part on 1) their historical development from kanji + , and also on their resultant different conjugations -- these generally do not take -dekiru and instead take -seru for the potential form, for instance. That said, there are some changes underway in modern Japanese, and it seems can now take -dekiru instead, with google:"恋せる" getting 38K hits and google:"恋できる" getting 44K. However, other single-kanji -suru verbs like cannot (yet?) take -dekiru.
I haven't spent a lot of time working on or thinking about these single-kanji + -suru verbs, but we should probably have a separate template for them, given the differences in conjugation.
Does that explanation answer your question? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:16, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. So, 恋する should use {{ja-suru-i-ku}}? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:08, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Looks like it. I didn't know that template existed; thanks for clueing me in! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:27, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Moving counters to classifiers[edit]


Is there a quick way to move Category:Japanese counters to Category:Japanese classifiers as in Category:Classifiers by language? What needs to change? @TAKASUGI Shinji: has already expressed his support. See WT:Beer parlour/2014/April#Measure word, continued from WT:Beer parlour/2013/November#Measure word. I tried to do but something goes wrong. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:11, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Never mind the problem. @Wyang: helped me fix it. There 128 pages, though, in Category:Japanese counters. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:28, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Why are you doing this? No one seriously discussed changing Japanese- a single comment by one Japanese editor does NOT constitute the consensus of the whole Japanese community. STOP!!! Chuck Entz (talk) 13:56, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Hi. @Eirikr. I will undo the changes but it may take some time. See BP discussion for more. @Chuck Entz, no need to yell in multiple places, I can understand normal language and you should understand that people may not always be able to answer immediately, there's also time difference. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 20:39, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

honorific forms[edit]


What's the policy on Japanese honorific nouns, if there is any? Do we redirect, ignore them, make alternative forms and is there a template for it? See diff. I've made an entry for 知らせ, do we need one for お知らせ? And is it a good idea to display them as alternative forms on the lemma entry? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 21:15, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

  • Hmm, good question. I don't know of any specific policy. My gut feeling is that commonly occurring honorifics should perhaps be included, with simple etyms using {{prefix}}, and sense lines basically directing the reader to the lemma entry.
Listing as alternative forms might make sense for very common forms, like oshirase or ocha. But that seems more like a subjective judgment call. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 21:21, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I ended up making six(!) entries, please check (starting at) 知らせ. I wish there could be a better way :). Apart from etymology, I labeled honorific terms accordingly. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:19, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Etyl and Cognates[edit]

Don't forget that when you put "cognate with {{etyl|ojp|ams}}" you're actually categorizing it in Category:Southern Amami-Oshima terms derived from Old Japanese, which is wrong. When you say they're cognates, you're really saying they come from a common source, presumable Proto-Japonic (jpx-pro). I'm sure you were aware of this and just forgot, but in case you weren't, that would mean you would do something more like "cognate with {{etyl|ojp|-}}" or from "{{etyl|jpx-pro|ams}}, cognate with {{etyl|ojp|-}}". Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 03:47, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

  • Thank you! I'd gotten my wires crossed and wound up with the wikicode version of a spoonerism, after a fashion. Thanks for getting that sorted appropriately. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:21, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Request for help with user language Malagasy templates on EN Wiktionary[edit]

Hello Jagwar --

I noticed recently that one of our newer users on the English Wiktionary (User:LalalalaSta) wants to use Template:User mg-1 to state that they understand a basic level of Malagasy. However, that template doesn't exist yet. I have the technical ability to create such a template, but I know almost nothing about Malagasy aside from that it's spoken in Madagascar and that it's a cousin to Polynesian languages like Hawaiian or Māori.

So far, the only Malagasy user language template we have is for native speakers, Template:User mg. Would you be able to create the templates Template:User mg-1, Template:User mg-2, Template:User mg-3, and Template:User mg-4? If you're not comfortable creating the templates, I could do that part -- except the templates would require the following statements translated into Malagasy:

I would greatly appreciate it if you could either create the templates, or translate the above.

Thank you! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20 Aprily 2014 à 01:38 (UTC)

Hello Eiríkr,
As far as I can see, the Babel extension has been implemented into the English Wiktionary. Malagasy is supported in it from level 0 to N. Thus I strongly recommend you to use the Babel extension as this one is supported, for as many languages as possible, in every Wikimedia wiki.
Invoke the babel extension by this syntax {{#babel: de | mg-1 | ... }}
The use of this extension also allows the user to be automatically put into the right language level category. I hope this helps :) Best regards, — Jagwargrr... mailaka 20 Aprily 2014 à 09:46 (UTC)
Hello Jagwar --
Thank you for replying. I'm afraid I wasn't clear in my initial message to you. Yes, we have {{Babel}}, which works for many things. However, the {{Babel}} template itself does, in turn, use various {{User [lang]-[number]}} templates to populate the Babel table. If any of those templates are missing, the call to the Babel template doesn't produce the desired results. I've knocked up a sample of this at [[User:Eirikr/Scratchpad]], illustrating how Babel calls other templates, and what happens if those other templates are missing. I'd appreciate it if you could have a look.
Thanks again, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:39, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Hello Eiríkr,
I've created the templates, and you can now use them as you wish. Best regards, Jagwar (talk) 23:55, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Brilliant, thank you very much! In Hawaiian at least, mahalo nui loa!



Could you fix the kanji-tab, please? I'm not sure about the reading "み". I'd like to go through place names in Appendix:Mandarin_exonyms_for_Japanese_placenames and also make Chinese entries. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:41, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

  • Done. み is right, it's an OJP form that shows up in compounds. See also , , etc., where the み portion is this 水 root. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 03:07, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. BTW, what is your source (which dictionaries) you use for Japanese pronunciations? I'd like to update mine. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:10, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Sorry to be a pain. In 埼玉, what's the resulting reading of nanori + kun'yomi? Can I mark it as yomi=kun, still? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:47, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Heya, no worries, was offline overnight as I slept.  :)   Well, mostly slept -- our foster puppy crapped herself twice during the night, making things a bit less restful than one would hope...
Anyway, ya, I actually responded about pitch dictionaries over at [[Talk:계속]], so have a look there.
As for what kind of reading a given character has (i.e. 呉音 (goon), 漢音 (kan'on), 唐音 (tōon), etc.), I no longer have the dead-tree dictionary that I used to use for that, and it's been so long all I can remember is the sleeve color, not even the title.  :(
That said, Daijisen (大辞泉) tends to list that kind of info for single kanji, and Kotobank's Digital Daijisen entries include this. They don't have every kanji, but a lot of them. See and scroll down to the Daijisen entry for an example of their entry, clearly differentiating the 呉音 (goon) and 漢音 (kan'on).
Weblio also provides some info on individual kanji, but generally without differentiating kinds of on'yomi. See for their entry.
Meanwhile, Weblio's entry for at does clearly show that sai is regarded as kun'yomi, not just nanori.  I'll fix our entry in a moment.
HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:41, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. Could you check 宇都宮, in particular, the appearance of "の" between つ and みや? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад)
  • Yeah, that's one of those implied の instances, as in old personal names like Fujiwara no Yoritomo, where the の isn't spelled out and actually doesn't belong to any of the kanji.
(I used to live in Utsunomiya. Odd town, at least when I was there -- the yaks ran the city government, and the expats all called it Utsunomi iya da for the somewhat scary right-winger "kick out the barbarians" buses that would drive around with blacked out windows, playing WWII propaganda music at full blast. Good gyoza, though.)
Interesting, I wish I could spend more time in Japan.
Can we have |yomi=irregular in such cases, also when okurigana is implied but not written? I'd like to see a more comprehensive list of yomi's but that may be a hard thing to do. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:34, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I've been thinking about that, and our current yomi classification system is a good beginning, but it does have a lot of gaps -- just using irreg for everything makes it not so useful. In this case, the Utsu part is on'yomi (goon), but the no is indeed implied, and the miya is kun'yomi. In this case, I don't think the no even counts as okurigana, since okurigana are the kana bits on the end of a verb or adjective, not the particles.
I'm not sure how best to proceed. One thought is to allow kanji within a term to be grouped and given a group reading type, so a single term might have multiple reading types. Not sure how that would be implemented, though. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I know it's not okurigana in this case, I meant missing also missing okurigana or implied "の", any type of irregular shortening a longer reading? If it's too complex "irregular" is an umbrella for such cases (it could also be wikified with a brief description of possible irregularities). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:57, 24 April 2014 (UTC)


Hi. I doubt with this: Since 'ou' is usually represented in 'ō', but why 'ei' is not replaced into 'ē' in the same way? --Octahedron80 (talk) 03:41, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Katakana terms, when they are borrowed terms, sometimes behave differently. The term is explicitly spelled with the ゼイ, where a simple long ē would be spelled ゼー. You'll note that even the Unicode Consortium uses the KURUZEIRO romanization in their label for this symbol. I suspect the イ is intended to convey that this term does actually have a diphthong /ei/ instead of just a monophthong /eː/, probably in reflection of the pronunciation of cruzeiro in Portuguese. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 03:47, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
エイ is always romanized to ei, no matter how it is pronounced. 時計 is tokei, not tokē. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:14, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Japanese editing[edit]


Don't tell me you burned out as well! Who's gonna edit Japanese? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:24, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Eirikr has never had enough free time to spend on this for him to get burnt out. Long periods of absence are quite normal. Unless you know something I don't, I wouldn't worry. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:45, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Cheers, sorry for the long absence.  :)   Chuck has the right of it -- I haven't gotten burned out so much as buried under. I've got multiple projects at work that have me waaay further behind the eight ball than is comfortable, and a handful of projects in my own business that take up still more time, and then family stuff on top of that. I'm not gone -- just misplaced.  :-P
(I should put a note at the top here...)
Ta for the note, and TTFN ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:29, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Japanese pitch accent resources again[edit]


Sorry to ask you the same question again but I couldn't find an affordable dictionary (app) or a web-site, which uses the same notations as ours, which shows Japanese pitch accent, can I ask you again? Worst case scenario, I'll order a dictionary from Amazon or something. Do you understand the conversion if numbers are used instead, e.g 0 = 平板型, 1 = 頭高型, etc.?--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Daijirin is one of the common sources when searching the 国語辞典 at Weblio, as at the entry for 傾向 here. This is free, so as long as you have web access, you're good to go.  :)   Daijirin uses the numbering notation, which marks the mora on which the pitch accent drops (i.e. right after that number of morae there is a downstep). So a number of 0 means there is no downstep -- the pitch rises on the second mora, then slowly drops until the next rise, i.e. heiban. A number of 1 means that the pitch starts high on the first mora, after which there is an immediate downstep, i.e. atamadaka. Etc.
One of the best dictionaries for pitch accent information for Tokyo-dialect 標準語 is NHK's 日本語発音アクセント辞典. Main page here on NHK's site, listing here. It's also available for Android and iOS for ¥3,100, for use in a free-download dictionary app called Dejizo (デ辞蔵). NHK's dictionary also has information on when が is /ga/ and when it's /ŋa/ instead, among other bits and bobs, which is quite useful. This dictionary lists the pitch accents approved for use by NHK newscasters, so it's just about the closest thing to "official" pronunciation as you're going to get for 標準語.
HTH! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 21:06, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Thank you! Yes, it does. Any other number is Nakadaka with the number showing the last mora before the pitch accent drops? I actually ended up buying NHK 日本語発音アクセント辞典 (quite large and expensive) for my ASUS Padfone Infinity phone (it has a station, so it's better than iPad). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:19, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Re: number, nakadaka is any case where ([number of morae] > 2) && ([pitch number] > 1) && ([pitch number] < [number of morae]). You can only have nakadaka on words with at least three morae, which makes sense, since you need to have a middle mora.  :)
Odaka is any case where [pitch number] == [number of morae]. This means it's possible to have single-mora odaka words, such as  () (hi), contrasting with heiban  () (hi).
Does that make sense? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:50, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it does, thank you. It would be good if we displayed the numbers next to pitch accent names. That way it would be easier to cross-reference resources like Weblio with Wiktionary.
Do you mind checking if I'm right in my assumptions on Shinji's talk page? Re: 朝鮮 that notation "ちょ↗ーせ↘ん" is the same as [3] and that ソウル is pronounced as [so̞ɯᵝɾ̠ɯᵝ], not [so̞ːɾ̠ɯᵝ]. What's the pitch accent pattern on ソウル? I couldn't find anything on pronunciation of these, apart from "ちょ↗ーせ↘ん" in the Japanese Wiktionary. Last question, again Korea-related - are 韓国 and 勧告 full homophones? To my ear, they are. Cheers. :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:41, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Re: showing pitch accent numbers, probably a good idea. Should only need a tweak to {{ja-pron}} to display that.
Re: 朝鮮, Daijirin doesn't show any pitch. I suspect the NHK dictionary might, but I no longer have regular access to my copy of the NHK accent dictionary, as it's on an Android phone that has half-died and I leave it at home as a result. Likewise for ソウル. I suspect the JA WT entry for 朝鮮 is correct about pitch, but they don't have pitch either for ソウル.  :( ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:29, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. The app version of NHK doesn't have these words but it has 勧告, which sounds exactly as 韓国. I have already added pronunciation on both. Will add for 朝鮮, thanks for the confirmation. If you find out anything about ソウル, pls let me know. It may belong to Category:Japanese words with nonphonetic spellings, right, if pronunciation is confirmed as [so̞ɯᵝɾ̠ɯᵝ]? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:02, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

No explanation given: reverted edit at [edit]

I'm curious as to why you reverted my edit at . English Wiktionary is in the process of unifying the separate Chinese topolect sections (Mandarin, Cantonese, Min Nan, Hakka, etc.) into single "Chinese" sections using Template:zh-pron. Thanks, Bumm13 (talk) 21:41, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

  • @Bumm13: Sorry for the trouble, I was trying to hit a different link on my watchlist, and as the javascript and other parts of the page loaded, the list jumped right as I clicked. I reverted my reversion as soon as I noticed what had happened though, so the entry should be back to the state you left it in. I realized only after reverting my reversion that I probably should have used Undo instead so I could leave an explanation. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 21:53, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Okie, no problem, I just thought it was odd. Keep up the good work here! :) Regards, Bumm13 (talk) 21:57, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Welsh cwm[edit]

Hi, sorry, but your edits for Welsh cwm are way off base. I'm not sure you understand how all the words relate to each other. To begin with, French is a Romance language, which means that - whatever the source of combe - we agree it's not from Latin, which means it was borrowed at some point, not inherited. It therefore can't be a cognate and shouldn't be listed as if it were one. As for Dutch kom, it comes from MDu combe, which is plainly a loan from Old French. Likewise, Old English cumb (mod. comb (coomb is less common)) was borrowed from British Celtic; hump is the correct cognate. Indo-European k- and -b normally give h- and -p in Germanic, which is why the correct cognate is hump. So, you've jumbled superfluous loans in with cognates.

While listing the loans is not wrong per se, not explaining they're loans and not setting them apart from the cognates certainly is. No average reader can be expected to tell one from the other. Torvalu4 (talk) 00:01, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

  • @Torvalu4: -- Thank you for the additional detail. I had viewed the origin of French combe from Transalpine Gaulish as an inheritance rather than borrowing, since the Gauls became the French, broadly speaking, but reading around some more, it sounds like the consensus view may be more that Gaulish was wholly replaced by Latin, making any residual Gaulish terms borrowings instead. Past there, your post also makes it clear that you're operating from a sound basis, which is both happy news, and a prompt for me to bow out where I'm out of my depth.  :)
FWIW, you might consider adding some more languages to your userpage, since you clearly know more than just English and French.
Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:36, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Japanese for disc 1, … 2, … 3, etc.[edit]

Hello Eiríkr. I was wondering, what with you being listed in Category:User ja-4, whether you could help me with a short English-to-Japanese translation that's stumped me. You know how, in a multi-disc music album, each disc can be entitled "[album title]: disc №"? Well, how would that be written in Japanese? Would it be simply "[album title] 〜 ディスク 一" (for disc one), or is there a way to write it which avoids the gairaigo? Any help you can give would be most appreciated. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 17:39, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

If you're trying to find a way specifically to avoid 外来語, regardless of how commonly used the term might be, you could use 1 , 2 instead.  (まい) (mai) is the counter for flat things like discs, and  () (me) is the ordinal suffix, so 1 means first flat thing [i.e. disc]. A quick Google search for this usage shows some examples, so I think it's safe to say that folks would understand this wording too.
HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:49, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
That helps very much, thank you. :-) I've gone with "[album title]〜一枚目", "[album title]〜二枚目", "[album title]〜三枚目", etc. Is that acceptable presentation, in your opinion? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 19:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Looks fine by me.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:07, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Great. Thanks for your help with this. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 20:25, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Category:Japanese terms spelled with 尻 read as けつ[edit]

I saw this in Special:WantedCategories and created it (the only member: 尻もどき), but it looks like it got its reading from . Should I label it as kan'on after that entry, or is there some other way to deal with it? Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 00:33, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Does that answer meet your needs? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:13, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, but (sorry for the pun): adding "kan" adds it to Category:Japanese terms read with kan'yōon, which is another item in Special:WantedCategories that I'm not sure what to do with (I added "kan" to {{ja-readingcat}} for Category:Japanese terms spelled with 尻 read as けつ, but that created a bogus redlinked category, which I was going to ask you about, but I finally figured out that "kan'yōon" was the correct value). Any suggestions on how to deal with Category:Japanese terms read with kan'yōon and its sister Category:Japanese terms spelled with ateji‏‎? Chuck Entz (talk) 01:51, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
I asked User:TAKASUGI Shinji, but they seem to have forgotten about it again. —CodeCat 02:17, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
I went ahead and created them, but I'm sure they can use some correction and/or tweaking based on a better knowledge of the language and of the practices among the editors who edit in it. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:23, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
I think it is better categorize けつ as a kun because it has nothing to with the real on きゅう. In the case of , the common reading しゃく, which is from , is treated as a kun. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:03, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
I made the change in both Category:Japanese terms spelled with 尻 read as けつ and in 尻もどき). Could you check Category:Japanese terms read with kan'yōon and Category:Japanese terms spelled with ateji‏‎ to make sure I didn't make any serious errors? Chuck Entz (talk) 06:05, 4 October 2014 (UTC)


Module error bad! You fix? ;) Chuck Entz (talk) 02:46, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

  • Done. Fat-finger moment corrected.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Consensus on transliteration of headword inflections?[edit]


I don't know how to phrase it, so that everyone understands. If you're still not sure about what I meant, you can ask me. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:36, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

  • My main concern is usability. With regard to the issues you have raised, I see two parts to this:
    1. Script legibility (perhaps the main stream of the BP thread)
      As noted elsewhere, as the EN WT, we can only safely assume that users can read the Latin alphabet. Consequently, any content not written in the Latin alphabet represents an impediment to usability. Adding parenthesized romanizations to already-cluttered headlines would just make things worse.
    2. Clutter in the headline
      As you and others brought up, the headlines of some entries can become very cluttered, even without adding in romanizations. Clutter presents another usability issue, in that cluttered content is harder to read and understand.
Does that accurately summarize your understanding of where things stand? I really don't want to be contrarian, my goal here is to make the EN WT as easy to use as possible -- and not just for me!  :) I'm aware that my own thinking sure isn't the only way to see things, and I also know that I often don't see other people's perspectives very well. Restating and asking others if the restatement matches their understanding can be one way to approach common ground.
  • In terms of finding a workable solution, Chuck Entz pointed out that the inflections given in the headline are really only usable to people who already know the basics of inflection patterns for that language. However, as CodeCat and Benwing noted, entries in some languages don't usually have inflection tables at all, so the headline is currently the only place where inflected forms can be presented.
Arrowred.png My suggestion, perhaps similar to Benwing's:
  • Give romanizations for everything, but only present them as pop-up tooltips for inflected forms in headlines, to avoid visual clutter. Perhaps add some symbol or icon to hint to users that they should mouse-over, maybe like the (key) prompt for IPA transcriptions.
Would that work for you? If not, what changes would you suggest? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:46, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Clutteredness is not such a big deal as the problem with transliterations themselves. E.g., the term ле́карь (lékarʹ) would work OK, if users/editors are happy with wide headwords (or pop-ups). It will just make the headword very wide but there won't be discrepancies but a term, such as {[l|ru|кагебе́шник|tr=kagɛbɛ́šnik}} (phonetic respelling: кагэбэ́шник) with an irregular transliteration would require manual transliteration for each form - kagɛbɛ́šnika, kagɛbɛ́šniki, kagɛbɛ́šnica. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure I understand -- do you mean you're concerned about irregularities in transcription, such as the こんにちは > *konnichi ha vs. konnichi wa, or the -ого > *-ogo vs. -ovo examples you gave in the BP thread?
If so, that seems surmountable, either by manual overrides, or by deriving the phonetic rules by which such irregularities occur, and then coding those rules into a module.
Also, romanization would conceivably be most useful to our user base if it were to use the Latin alphabet, of which the IPA vowel ɛ is not a member. Would you be amenable to spelling your examples as kagebéšnika, kagebéšniki, kagebéšnica, etc. instead?
‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

A couple of templates to try[edit]

I've had the idea for these for a while, but only just now took the time to reverse-engineer User:Wyang's version of a similar template and make them for myself. You subst: them, and they basically fill out the {{ja-readingcat}} and {{ja-readascat}} templates for you with information that's in the category name. The one for {{ja-readingcat}} ({{jrcez}}) takes up to 2 optional parameters for the reading type, but the one for {{ja-readascat}} ({{jraez}}) doesn't need anything. I hope you find them useful. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:45, 13 October 2014 (UTC)


Something you did caused this entry to appear in Category:Japanese, an invalid category. Could you fix it if possible, or notify someone who can? —CodeCat 22:58, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

  • It was this POS: 幸#Adverb. I'd used the abbreviation adv, which apparently the template didn't recognize. Odd that the non-recognition should cause the page to be added to such a category. I added adv as a valid abbreviation in this edit to the {{ja-pos}} template, and now it appears to be working correctly -- 幸#Japanese is no longer categorizing oddly.
Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Sort order on こうせつ[edit]

Hello, Eirikr. I was wondering about the logic underlying the order of entries on こうせつ. It doesn't appear to be by radical or stroke count, and obviously it can't be by pronunciation. In terms of frequency, it seems to me that 公設 and 交接 are more frequent than any of the other uses, but that's just an impression; it doesn't reflect careful measurement nor reliable sources. My own logic in sorting was to put the words that have existing Wiktionary entries first, and the red links later. Is there some other preferred or commonly used sort order for such pages? (If you respond, you can do so here, since I don't really use my Wiktionary talk page.) Thanks, and happy editing, Cnilep (talk) 23:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

  • Hi, sorry for any confusion. I generally order according to the search results in my e-copy of Daijirin, since that's one of my resources to hand that tends to have pretty comprehensive lists of kanji compounds, and it orders by radical. Partway through creating the list in the wikitext editing pane, I ran across some other compounds with the こうせつ reading that weren't in the main list in Daijirin, and I added those into the editing pane (currently items 7-10) -- but I realize now that I didn't put them into the list in any sensible sort order. I apologize for that. I'll re-sort momentarily. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
PS: I've just spent some time looking more into how Daijirin orders entries -- apparently their collation is by gross character count, not radical, such that comes after but before . I've followed suit for now on the こうせつ page, since I've historically mostly used Daijirin's ordering. Let me know if that's a problem in any way. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Arrowred.png @Cnilep: Also (on the theory you might see this here quickest), where are you getting the "copula" sense for 交接? That's not listed in either Daijirin or Shogakukan. Nor, indeed, in my dead-tree copy of Shinmeikai. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:57, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation of Daijirin's sort order. Regarding 交接 as "copula", my immediate source is Kenkyusha's リーダーズ+プラスV3 (Reader's Plus Dictionary). I also have vague memories of seeing it in some works of grammar, but other words such as 繋辞 or コプラ may be more common. Cnilep (talk) 00:21, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Going back to it a third time, it appears that I was somehow mixing the (文法) and (法) lines. Hmm, now I begin to doubt those hazy memories of my own reading – never the best source for information about one's second language. Cnilep (talk) 00:50, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
No worries. I've been a professional translator for a while now, and that kind of visual parsing hiccup is quite common. Cheers! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:46, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


This shows as having 貪 read as むさぼ, but I notice that gives its only kun reading as むさぼる. Is this むさぼ + り or むさぼる that has り merging with る? Chuck Entz (talk) 00:12, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

  • Ya, it was missing a few details. Should be good now. Thanks! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:33, 18 October 2014 (UTC)