Talk:石持

RFV discussion: March–September 2023

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石持

Japanese. Rfv-sense: 石持ち, 石首魚, 石頭魚: any cardinalfish in the Apogonidae family

Kokugo Daijiten defines 石持/石首魚/いしもち as a synonym of either 白口(しろぐち) (shiroguchi, “silver croaker”) or 鰍(かじか) (kajika, “sculpin”), but doesn't include Apogonidae. (KDJ also includes two other definitions, which I added to 石持.) Japanese Wikipedia suggests that Apogonidae is テンジクダイ科 (tenjikudai-ka); KDJ doesn't include テンジクダイ科 but defines 天竺鯛(てんじくだい) (tenjikudai) as Apogon lineatus. A disambiguation page at イシモチ, however, points to シログチ and テンジクダイ (the species A. lineatus). There is a great deal of regional variation in the names of fishes, so it is entirely likely that some speakers call cardinalfish 石持. I just haven't found any quotes yet.

This quote, from a fishing blog, seems to suggest that イシモチ is distinct from テンジクダイ科, though I'm not sure I understand it correctly.

• 2023 March 22 (last accessed), “イシモチ【石持】”, in Bosobakucho‎^[1]:

  実際(じっさい)にイシモチという名(めい)の付(つ)く魚(さかな)としては、シログチなどと同様(どうよう)に耳石(じせき)を持(も)つ「オオスジイシモチ」や「テッポウイシモチ」などがいる。いずれも、シログチなどとは全然似(ぜんぜんに)ておらず、むしろ、同(おな)じテンジクダイ科(か)のネンブツダイと混同(こんどう)しやすい。

  Jissai ni ishimochi to iu mei no tsuku sakana to shite wa, shiroguchi nado to dōyō ni jiseki o motsu “ōsujīshimochi” ya “teppōishimochi” nado ga iru. Izuremo, shiroguchi nado to wa zenzen nite-orazu, mushiro, onaji tenjikudai-ka no nenbutsudai to kondō shi yasui.

  Fish that are de facto called ishimochi, the oosuji ishimochi or teppou ishimochi, have otoliths like the shiroguchi does. But neither of these resembles the shiroguchi and its ilk, rather resembling another member of the tenjikudai family, the nenbutsudai, with which they are easily confused.

By the way and for what it's worth, while I was searching I happened to notice that while 石頭魚 is a redlink on Japanese Wikipedia, it redirects to 日本鬼鮋 on Chinese Wikipedia. That is a type of scorpion fish; it cross-wikis to オニオコゼ on ja-wikipedia. Both 石持 and 石首魚 redirect to シログチ there. Cnilep (talk) 03:34, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

RFV failed for sense "cardinalfish in the Apogonidae family". Cnilep (talk) 04:00, 26 September 2023 (UTC)