Talk:luft

Music term

Someone added the following to the Luft article on the English Wikipedia:

In music, luft refers to the pause just before the downbeat, especially common in waltzes of the 19th century.

Maybe someone can confirm this, and add the definition to the Wiktionary entry. --Zundark (talk) 18:56, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

A Google Books search finds several mentions of a "Luft-Pause", which seems to be the same thing (?). Not sure about "luft" on its own or lower-cased. Equinox ◑ 19:51, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

RFV discussion: September 2021

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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luft

Rfv-sense: "air; used in some dialects".

No dialect I've heard. DCDuring (talk) 17:11, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

It is used in Scots, as a variant to lift (“sky, upper air, atmosphere”)...not sure if that is what is denoted by "some dialects" here though Leasnam (talk) 19:28, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

[1], which seems to date from around 1850, says "Both bygge and luft are still used in the Scottish dialect", although their actual example has the spelling "lift". Whether this "Scottish dialect" is English or Scots, I do not know (and indeed whether "Scots" is a distinct language anyway is very debatable). Mihia (talk) 19:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Also, at [2], "Dictionaries of the Scots Language", under heading "Scottish National Dictionary", they list "LIFT, n.1 Also luft (Arg. 1939 Scots Mag. (Feb.) 372)", though all the main quoted examples have "lift". Does anyone know what "Arg." means? Mihia (talk) 09:04, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

It probably refers to this place [3]. Overlordnat1 (talk) 10:11, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, yes, that does seem right, especially as they also have e.g. "Abd.", "Edb.", etc., which must mean "Aberdeen", "Edinburgh". Mihia (talk) 10:28, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

cited Kiwima (talk) 22:33, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Given that, for better or worse, we presently do treat Scots as a separate language, how confident are we that all these citations are English and not Scots? Mihia (talk) 00:48, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I can’t answer that as I don’t really think of Scots as a language, even if they do sound like they come from Bhutan (see ‘Ah’m e chiel sae dinna fash’ on YT - blocked by the spam filter but definitely the best argument I’ve come across that Scots is a language!). Overlordnat1 (talk) 12:30, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I do not accept the 1996 quotation. The italics indicate it is not being treated as English text. The others might be Scottish English or Scots. The Fleming quotation is lifted straight out of the Memoirs of James Melville written in the early 1600s in Halhill, Fife, Scotland. Dictionaries of the Scots Language has enough citations to make this a Scots entry, alternative form of lift. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 13:00, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I notice in passing that many (not all) of the other words in that quotation are not listed by us as Scots, or not in the relevant meanings. I don't know whether they should be. I don't know whether the comments about "orthographic reform" and the need for "translation" are meant to imply that the spelling is non-standard in modern Scots, or is just not standard English. This is one of the problems with "Scots" writing. Quite a lot (of course far from all, since there are many distinct dialect words) is just ordinary English written with phonetic spelling to make a point about its supposedly being a different language. I mean, I could also rite werds how I say them and prittend that my langwij isn't Inglish either. Mihia (talk) 21:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

It may be too late for this now, but I'm just circling back to this discussion now. The same Scots dictionary has a parallel entry for 'lift' here [[4]], which shows 2 examples of 'luft' at section (1) (b). For what it's worth... Leasnam (talk) 10:20, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

As far as the Scots as a language is concerned, my view is that Old Scots was indeed its own burgeoning language. However, "Modern Scots" appears to have been pulled back into the Anglosphere so much so that most of the distinctive characteristics that made Old Scots a separate language have now vanished in favour of adopted English ones. Modern Scots is essentially just Scottish English peppered with a few Old Scots words and phrases here and there - unless, that is, we're talking about the revitalised attempts at what I call Preservation-Scots, which to me is a kind of puritanistic propped-up form which is forcedly less English-y and harkens back to Burns. I have absolutely no trouble understanding Modern Scots, especially when spoken, unless the speaker is intentionally trying to throw the listener off with dialect to adamantly demonstrate there's a difference, and Scots seems to be becoming more like English over time than distinct from it. Again, take it for what it's worth... Leasnam (talk) 10:35, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

In a previous job I phoned up many working class Scots from near Aberdeen and I can affirm that some quite extreme natural examples of the Doric accent and dialect, where ‘what,why,where,who,when’ become ‘fit,fy,far,foo,fan’ and ‘do’ becomes ‘div’ do exist. Even Doric builders never actually said ‘bigging’ for ‘building’ or ‘gar’ for ‘to make/force’ though and I never actually heard anything quite as impenetrable as the YT video by the ‘chielmeister’ I mentioned earlier (a different YouTuber even says ‘fusky’ for ‘whisky’ in some of his vids!). Overlordnat1 (talk) 03:18, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

RFV-resolved Converted to Scots. Kiwima (talk) 21:59, 29 September 2021 (UTC)