Talk:rock and roll
Etymology / play on words[edit]
Hello, English Wiktionary editors! I would like to ask you the "rock" part of rock and roll, is it
- from rock#Verb (move gently back and forth) or (cause to shake or sway violently) OR
- from rock#Noun (natural mineral aggregate) or (boulder or large stone) or something strong?
I'll tell you why I ask. People learning English language, learn the word "rock" (stone) at the beginning of their studies; the other meaning "move gently back and forth" is a kind of "advanced English". While I think the rock and roll comes from the "movement" (and I believe I read it somewhere), many think it comes from the "stone". In the first ever rock and roll: "Rock Around the Clock" (1954) it is clearly the verb. But there is also "Rolling stone(s)" which plays with rock=stone (noun).
I would like to add this information in the Bulgarian Wikipedia article. It would be great if you could help me. --5ko 17:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
- It is the first meaning, "to sway," from Late Old English roccian, cognate with German rücken (to move jerkily). The name of the Rolling Stones wasn’t about rock, but from the phrase "a rolling stone gathers no moss". —Stephen 17:52, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, thank you for your lightning fast reply! :-) --5ko 18:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Etymologies[edit]
Should this be split into two etymologies? One being the AAVE slang "to have sex" and the other being the genre of music (and other senses) derived from it? WurdSnatcher (talk) 06:24, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
- Usually we don't split etymologies that have a common origin within the language, as this does. Sometimes we don't split them even if the origin is in a earlier vintage of the language, eg Middle vs Modern English. DCDuring TALK 12:55, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, fair enough. I do think this one would be clearer if we did split them, but it's not a big deal. I know I've found references to the sexual euphemism going back much farther -- IIRC there's an English sea shanty from the 18th century that uses it, can't find any mention of it now but I know I have before. If the origin gets much more complicated I might break it up, we'll see how it looks then. WurdSnatcher (talk) 20:06, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
- Our etymologies generally neglect sense development, favoring the seeking of Proto-Indo-Euroean roots. This is obviously largely to satisfy the contributors, not most users. Some peculiar sense developments beg for an explanation. We sometimes use "influenced by" to connect separate etymologies. I wonder whether non-sexual etymologies were advanced to euphemize the musical genre name, which was, after all, viewed by many at the time as sexual depravity. DCDuring TALK 20:16, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
- In my reading, everyone only points out the sexual euphemism use in song titles and lyrics, not ordinary use. Admittedly it's difficult to find actual use from back then. So I'm inclined to think it's "the kind of music that talks about rocking and rolling" rather than "music to listen to while rocking and rolling", especially since the genre name appears decades after the songs were common. But the genre called "rock and roll" was not the genre that used the term "rock and roll". So it's confusing. jazz was originally jass, a crude synonym for semen (a la jism), and funk has a similar origin referring to the smell of sex. WurdSnatcher (talk)
- You're referring to "Do My Johnny Booker", an old sea shanty and minstrel song from the 19th century, some versions of which include "rock and roll" to mean "have sex". 69.255.250.219 01:39, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
- In my reading, everyone only points out the sexual euphemism use in song titles and lyrics, not ordinary use. Admittedly it's difficult to find actual use from back then. So I'm inclined to think it's "the kind of music that talks about rocking and rolling" rather than "music to listen to while rocking and rolling", especially since the genre name appears decades after the songs were common. But the genre called "rock and roll" was not the genre that used the term "rock and roll". So it's confusing. jazz was originally jass, a crude synonym for semen (a la jism), and funk has a similar origin referring to the smell of sex. WurdSnatcher (talk)
- Our etymologies generally neglect sense development, favoring the seeking of Proto-Indo-Euroean roots. This is obviously largely to satisfy the contributors, not most users. Some peculiar sense developments beg for an explanation. We sometimes use "influenced by" to connect separate etymologies. I wonder whether non-sexual etymologies were advanced to euphemize the musical genre name, which was, after all, viewed by many at the time as sexual depravity. DCDuring TALK 20:16, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, fair enough. I do think this one would be clearer if we did split them, but it's not a big deal. I know I've found references to the sexual euphemism going back much farther -- IIRC there's an English sea shanty from the 18th century that uses it, can't find any mention of it now but I know I have before. If the origin gets much more complicated I might break it up, we'll see how it looks then. WurdSnatcher (talk) 20:06, 19 July 2015 (UTC)