Talk:turn up one's nose
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The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for cleanup.
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
Needs more intelligible citations, grammar info, etymology. One def is "sneer", which creates interesting image and confounds two distinct attitudes. DCDuring TALK * Holiday Greetings! 13:16, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
- Etymology. Etymonline seems to be a trifle confused about its history: depending whether you look up "turn" or "nose" it is said to be attested from 1779 or 1818. Earlier (1579) is hold up one's nose.
- I thought it might be related to look down one's nose (conjecturally, to tilt one's head so as to appear to look down on), but this is somewhat later (1921). Perhaps the original imputation was of smelliness, then. Pingku 14:28, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
- Citations. Added some, including for an added intransitive sense. Pingku 15:38, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- Definitions. I'm strongly tempted to change them. I've added an extra one for an intransitive sense - to perform the gesture (suggested by citations). It might still be idiomatic, since there seems no way of telling from the words what the actual gesture is.
- For the others, I think the emphasis should be on contempt and scorn (or the inclusive disdain) and perhaps disgust. I think the sneer is an optional extra, not a necessary part of the gesture. Pingku 15:38, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- The intransitive sense is clearly supported. As you say, the connection of any of the quotes to the sneer facial expression is not apparent. The sneer quotes could as easily support the third sense, though its wording may need more work.
- I think that to sneer and to turn up one's nose are two ways of expressing contempt. To turn up one's nose is a way of expressing one's one superiority therewith. To sneer conveys anger and menace therewith. The two bodily expressions are not literally the same and senses derived from them don't seem likely to lose their association with the facial expressions. I would not call the two terms very close synonyms. Following Darwin (w:The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals) and w:Paul Ekman, I would expect the facial expressions to be cross-cultural and even trans-species. Accordingly, I would think that they should translate distinctly into virtually every language.
- These terms and other similar ones (curl one's lip, snarl, grin, smile, laugh, leer, agape) should be among the easiest to "translate" because the translator should not need to rely on the words but instead an "ostensive" definition in the form of one or more pictures. DCDuring TALK * Holiday Greetings! 17:54, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- Also interesting is
Category:File:Plutchik's Wheel of Emotions.png on Wikimedia Commons.Wikimedia Commons , which puts contempt between anger (sneer) and disgust (more like "turn up one's nose"). I find a difference between turning up one's at, say, bad food and turning up one's nose at a person, though turning up one's nose at something associated with a person (esp., some kind of offering) is tantamount to expressing one's superiority to or dislike of the person. DCDuring TALK * Holiday Greetings! 18:17, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- I tend to agree. I came up with a similar distinction between person and object (my citations proved that object to be food). For definitions, I was thinking along the lines of (as currently numbered): 2: To regard with contempt or scorn; and 3: To refuse, especially with contempt, scorn or disgust.
- Interestingly, the citation that best supports the "refuse" notion concerns an animal.
- On the other hand, I wasn't sure how to handle the pre-existing 'citation', so I perhaps erred on the side of conservative editing. Pingku 19:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- Most of the most basic things about emotions I've learned have been from observing and talking about dogs' interactions with each other.
- This illustrates how hard defining is for verb-like terms, especially without numerous models. Brand-new definitions are difficult. And thorough revision isn't much easier.
- I agree with the direction, but I think the definition needs to make explicit the overt display aspect. My inclination was make that primary, but the result could be primary as well, especially if there are two "pseudo-transitive" (with at) senses. (Should "turn up ones' nose at" be a separate phrasal verb?) Also, I think the "up" could move to after "nose" for an alternative form. DCDuring TALK * Holiday Greetings! 20:07, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
OK now? -- Prince Kassad 10:35, 8 March 2011 (UTC)