User talk:Keithl
Welcome[edit]
It's reallygood to have a native Maltese editor. At one point, I tried to start the Maltese verbal-conjugation templates (here's what we got so far) but given their complicated nature, I decided to wait for someone who can provide more useful input. Let me know if you're interested in expanding them.
Also, if you've ever got a question about formatting entries or using a template I've made (like {{mt-noun}} or {{mt-adj}}) or if something needs to be added to those templates, please let me know. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 15:23, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you, Laurent. I´m very new to this so I´m not sure what to do/where to start. I´d gladly work on the verbs though.----keithl 16:00, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- I always found the verbal system to be one of the most interesting things about Maltese. By now I've forgotten the patterns that I did know and everything, but if you give me the patterns I can probably make a template from that. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 16:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, however I don't have a list of all patterns, so I either give them to you as I go along, or else I jot them down and give you a list.
- - Another question - What about reflexive verbs like 'ħasel' (he washed) vs. 'inħasel' (he washed himself)? Not all verbs take the reflexive, and not all verbs take a prefixed 'n-' (some take 't-', some 'nt-'). What about other conjugations of the verb, like transitive (e.g daħħal) vs intransitive (daħal)?
- - The template for "ġie" is wrong. The 'g' should be 'ġ' in all instances.
- Thanks for ġie, I'll get to fixing that. But the things you mention are among the finer points that I never got to thinking out. I want to redo the vowel part of the template names, but I think in*a*e*l looks a little strange. What do you think? — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 18:15, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know. You could add the template, like you said (I can think of some verbs that fit that pattern). The only problem I can think of is that some verbs with that same pattern have slightly different semantic values and may not necessary be reflexives. Maybe we can ignore these for now if it's too much work?
- As for the transitive vs intransitive, the usual pattern is just the doubling of the second root consonant - the vowels and everything else remain the same. There are exception though, as always.----keithl 18:48, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- The transitivity and translations don't matter as much as the basic structure of the word for conjugation templates. If you tell me all the forms of a verb, like bagħad, I can make a template from that that should work for hopefully most verbs of the same patterns. I can always add the ability to handle irregularities later. I've been making templates here for a long time, I've gotten decent at it :) — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 18:59, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- In addition to bagħad, we have għasar, siket, waqaf, għamel, wasal, xegħel, daħal, għorok, għereq, għażel... there's a long list of patterns we could use. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 19:08, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ok here goes
- Perf: bgħadt, bgħadt, bagħad, bagħdet, bgħadna, bgħadtu, bagħdu
- Imprf: nobgħod, tobgħod, jobgħod, tobgħod, nobogħdu, tobogħdu, jobogħdu
- Imper: obgħod, obgħodu
- Perf: għasart, għasart, għasar, għasret, għasarna, għasartu, għasru
- Imprf: nagħsar, tagħsar, jasgħar, tagħsar, nagħsru, tagħsru, jagħsru
- Imper: agħsar, agħsru
- Perf: skitt, skitt, siket, siktet, skitna, skittu, siktu
- Imprf: niskot, tiskot, jiskot, tiskot, nisktu, tisktu, jisktu
- Imper: iskot, isktu
- Perf: wasalt, wasalt, wasal, waslet, wasalna, wasaltu, waslu
- Imprf: nasal, tasal, jasal, tasal, naslu, taslu, jaslu
- Imper: asal, aslu
- Perf: xgħelt, xgħelt, xegħel, xegħlet, xgħelna, xgħeltu, xegħlu
- Imprf: nixgħel, tixgħel, jixgħel, nixegħlu, tixegħlu, jixegħlu
- Imper: ixgħel, ixegħlu
- Perf: dħalt, dħalt, daħal, daħlet, dħalna, dħaltu, daħlu
- Imprf: nidħol, tidħol, jidħol, tidħol, nidħlu, tidħlu, jidħlu
- Imper: idħol, idħlu
- Perf: għorokt, għorokt, għorok, għorkot, għorokna, għoroktu, għorku
- Imprf: nogħrok, togħrok, jogħrok, togħrok, nogħrku, togħrku, jogħrku
- Imper: ogħrok, ogħrku
- Perf: għeriqt, għeriqt, għereq, għerqet, għeriqna, għeriqtu, għerqu
- Imprf: negħreq, tegħreq, jegħreq, tegħreq, negħrqu, tegħrqu, jegħrqu
- Imper: egħreq, egħrqu
ROOT: A - E
- Perf: għamilt, għamilt, għamel, għamlet, għamilna, għamiltu, għamlu
- Imprf: nagħmel, tagħmel, jagħmel, tagħmel, nagħmlu, tagħmlu, jagħmlu
- Imper: agħmel, agħmlu
- Perf: għażilt, għażilt, għażel, għażlet, għażilna, għażiltu, għażlu
- Imprf: nagħżel, tagħżel, jagħżel, tagħżel, nagħżlu, tagħżlu, jagħżlu
- Imper: agħżel, agħżlu
- There are some patterns that have the same grouping of consonant, but the vowels are different in each case. For example (bagħad, siket, daħal) all have the same consonant pattern. Likewise, those that start with a silent (għ) or weak (w/j) consonant have a different pattern.
- There's also another pattern for verbs with 'ie' in the 3rd masc sing perfect.
- Perf: mitt, mitt, miet, mietet, mitna, mittu, mietu
- Imprf: mmut, tmut, jmut, tmut, mmutu, tmutu, jmutu
- Imper: mut, mutu
- Perf: bilt, bilt, biel, bielet, bilna, biltu, bielu
- Imprf: nbul, tbul, jbul, tbul, nbulu, tbulu, jbulu
- Imper: bul, bulu
- 'mar' and 'kiel' also show similar conjugation patterns but do not fit into the pattern 100%.
- Hope this helps somewhat
- --46.11.50.154 21:55, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- Man, you have no idea how awesome that is haha. This gives me a lot to do... and there's a ton more to get to eventually. We don't have a lot of Maltese at the moment, so there's plenty to do. For now I'll start getting to work on some of these templates :) Let me know if you need a hand with anything. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 22:23, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- No problem! And yeah, we are quite small in terms of speakers, so not a lot of work can be done as fast as the other languages unfortunately.
- P.s. I have a question regarding templates - more specifically, how do they work? For example I'm looking at (Template:is-decl-noun-n-s), and the template contains {{{2}}}. In the actual pages, there are more than one parameter being passed (e.g. fiðrildi), and somehow it knows when to not add an extra 'i' in some of the declensions, or to remove it in others. If you could help me here I would be grateful! I'm trying to learn (well familiarize myself more than learn) Icelandic, and patterns like these could be useful. Thanks. ----keithl 23:07, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- Well, different templates do different things, and the number of things they can do is pretty vast. Some are more complex than others, and some have simple usage that runs through a complex template to produce accurate displays. The Turkish templates are like this... the parameters you give the template are solved by the template, which gives you the correct conjugation. This is basically what I'm trying to do for Maltese, but it would be much too difficult to do this with one or two templates like Turkish, so I'm using a number of subtemplates.
- Now, with the Icelandic templates, I'm not sure how they all work. You could try asking the users Krun (talk • contribs) and BiT (talk • contribs), who are our very helpful Icelandic natives. They would know better how to use the Icelandic templates.
- I'm working on these Maltese templates way faster than I expected to, I may have to bring you another list soon :) — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 00:08, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- I shall ask them, thanks. Awesome, fire away! :) ----keithl 07:05, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- Alright, let's get to work :) God this is gonna be fun haha. This list might be longer than the last one, but I was working faster yesterday than I expected. The list is totally random :)
- beżaq, siker, sata, dara, fehem, wieġeb, tkellem, ġabar, ħabb, ħalaq, ħafer, qabeż, għoġob, ħareġ, ħaseb, rebaħ — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 11:57, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- I will work on these at home since I'm at work right now. Wouldn't want to slack off too much. That's a nice list though! :D. My only problem is with "sata", as 1) it should have an apostrophe at the end, and 2) it should be "seta'". As for "dara", the conjugation is already there ----keithl 12:52, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Here you go, sorry it took me a few days
Perf: bżaqt, bżaqt, beżaq, beżqet, bżaqna, bżaqtu, beżqu
Imprf: nobżoq, tobżoq, jobżoq, tobżoq, nobżqu, tobżqu, jobżqu
Imper: obżoq, obżqu
Perf: skirt, skirt, siker, sikret, skirna, skirtu, sikru
Imprf: nisker, tisker, jisker, tisker, niskru, tiskru, jiskru
Imper: isker, iskru
Perf: stajt, stajt, seta', setgħet, stajna, stajtu, setgħu
Imprf: nista', tista', jista', tista', nistgħu, tistgħu, jistgħu
Imper: ista', istgħu <-- But these are not really used in everyday conversation
Perf: drajt, drajt, dara, drat, drajna, drajtu, draw
Imprf: nidra, tidra, jidra, tidra, nidraw, tidraw, jidraw
Imper: idra, idraw
Perf: fhimt, fhimt, fehem, fehmet, fhimna, fhimtu, fehmu
Imprf: nifhem, tifhem, jifhem, tifhem, nifhmu, tifhmu, jifhmu
Imper: ifhem, ifhmu
Perf: weġibt, weġibt, wieġeb, wieġbet, weġibna, weġibtu, wieġbu
Imprf: nwieġeb, twieġeb, jwieġeb, twieġeb, nwieġbu, twieġbu, jwieġbu
Imper: wieġeb, wieġbu
Perf: tkellimt, tkellimt, tkellem, tkellmet, tkellimna, tkellimtu, tkellmu
Imprf: nitkellem, titkellem, jitkellem, titkellem, nitkellmu, titkellmu, jitkellmu
Imper: tkellem, tkellmu
Perf: ġbart, ġbart, ġabar, ġabret, ġbarna, ġbartu, ġabru
Imprf: niġbor, tiġbor, jiġbor, tiġbor, niġbru, tiġbru, jiġbru
Imper: iġbor, iġbru
Perf: ħabbejt, ħabbejt, ħabb, ħabbet, ħabbejna, ħabbejtu, ħabbu
Imprf: nħobb, tħobb, jħobb, tħobb, nħobbu, tħobbu, jħobbu
Imper: ħobb, ħobbu
Perf: ħlaqt, ħlaqt, ħalaq, ħalqet, ħlaqna, ħlaqtu, ħalqu
Imprf: noħloq, toħloq, joħloq, toħloq, noħolqu, toħolqu, joħolqu
Imper: oħloq, oħolqu
Perf: ħfirt, ħfirt, ħafer, ħafret, ħfirna, ħfirtu, ħafru
Imprf: naħfer, taħfer, jaħfer, taħfer, naħfru, taħfru, jaħfru
Imper: aħfer, aħfru
Perf: qbiżt, qbiżt, qabeż, qabżet, qbiżna, qbiżtu, qabżu
Imprf: naqbeż, taqbeż, jaqbeż, taqbeż, naqbżu, taqbżu, jaqbżu
Imper: aqbeż, aqbżu
Perf: għoġobt, għoġobt, għoġob, għoġbot, għoġobna, għoġobtu, għoġbu
Imprf: nogħġob, togħġob, jogħġob, togħġob, nogħġbu, togħġbu, jogħġbu
Imper: ogħġob, ogħġbu
Perf: ħriġt, ħriġt, ħareġ, ħarġet, ħriġna, ħriġtu, ħarġu
Imprf: noħroġ, toħroġ, joħroġ, toħroġ, noħorġu, toħorġu, joħorġu
Imper: oħroġ, oħorġu
Perf: ħsibt, ħsibt, ħaseb, ħasbet, ħsibna, ħsibtu, ħasbu
Imprf: naħseb, taħseb, jaħseb, taħseb, naħsbu, taħsbu, jaħsbu
Imper: aħseb, aħsbu
Perf: rbaħt, rbaħt, rebaħ, rebħet, rbaħna, rbaħtu, rebħu
Imprf: nirbaħ, tirbaħ, jirbaħ, tirbaħ, nirbħu, tirbħu, jirbħu
Imper: irbaħ, irbħu
keithl 18:58, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
- It's fine, man, I can be patient with important stuff like this :) — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 22:04, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
Lol hey man[edit]
I figured I'd give you a break after the last batch, since I think it's probably easier for me to do the templates than it is for you to type out pages of conjugations. Anyway, when we do get to the next round, I think I've already given you almost all, if not all, of the normal easy 3-letter-root verbs that we have on Wiktionary... I think we've got less than 200 Maltese verbs on here, and a good proportion of them are Italian-derived, so it doesn't help the Semitic-verb project I've been so worried about. The only half-decent Maltese reference I have is an online wordlist that doesn't list the eversoimportant 3rd person singular masculine imperfective, so any verbs that I add in the near future will probably lack that highly necessary information so I probably won't be able to determine their conjugation patterns and add templates if we already have them. I've rambled on about nothing specifically particular, but I guess I just wanted you to know these things lol. I guess I could give you a list of some of the more complex verbs that we've got, but even those are pretty few in number so the immediate benefit (that is, until we have a greater number of those verbs, and frankly verbs of all kinds) will be limited. Ok, rambling over :D Can't wait to bang out some more of this with you. Being able to add this stuff for Maltese has made me more excited than I can explain to you :D — [Ric Laurent] — 19:29, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
- Haha, I am glad to help. Maltese has a ton of Italian-derived verbs (and words in general) that are simpler to conjugate than the Semitic ones (although personally the Semitic ones are more interesting :P). Also, a modern trend is to import English verbs and add semitic conjugations around it. It's hell for purists, but it happens :P.
- I look forward to "banging out some more" too (awesome verb right there!) - send them over any time.
- Btw, what's this Semitic project you speak of? And is English your native language? I'm really excited to see a non-Malteser getting all excited about Maltese! (yes, I have a sad existence. haha)----keithl 20:44, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
- It's not really an official project or anything, it's just something that I've wanted to work on here for a long time... I just haven't had the resource to do it. I get excited about any language with unique or uncommon and awesome qualities :) But yes, English is my first language. Not so fantastic really lol — [Ric Laurent] — 20:59, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
- Me too, I love languages. And English is a cool language - it's like a popular cheerleader that everyone wants to hang out with.----keithl 21:13, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
- It might be different in other places, but cheerleaders here tend to only be good for one thing... and other than that one thing, which is pretty awesome, they don't tend to have a lot of brainpower or other redeeming personal qualities lol.
- I wonder, could you just make a list of verbs and their meanings so I can add them and we can work on the conjugations later? I'll just need the perfect and imperfect 3p singular masculine forms. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:20, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
- Haha fine, but you get my point :P. Ok I shall do that, but it may take some time, as I don´t have any lists. I´m going to list them down as I go.
Here are some verbs. There might be some duplicates with the ones in place already... More to come after some sleep (also some of these might be Italianish verbs, but they are nontheless used)
| Perfect | Imperfect | Translation | Transitive (Perf / Imprf) |
|---|---|---|---|
| beda | jibda | to start | |
| bena | jibni | to build | |
| raqad | jorqod | to sleep | raqqad / iraqqad |
| spiċċa | jispiċċa | to finish | |
| qara | jaqra | to read | |
| ġibed | jiġbed | to pull | ġebbed / iġebbed |
| imbotta | jimbotta | to push | |
| tela' | jitla' | to climb/ to go up | tella' / itella' |
| niżel | jinżel | to descend / to go down | niżżel / iniżżel |
| bela' | jibla' | to swallow / to catch (a cold or virus) | bella' / ibella' |
| faqa' | jifqa' | to smash | faqqa' / ifaqqa' |
| penġa | ipinġi | to draw | |
| libes | jilbes | to put on clothes / get dressed | libbes / ilibbes |
| mexa | jimxi | to walk | mexxa / imexxi |
| ġera | jiġri | to run | ġerra / iġerri |
| għola | jogħla | to go higher | għolla / jgħolli |
| baxxa | ibaxxi | to crouch / to go lower | |
| rabat | jorbot | to tie (in a knot) | |
| dar | jdur | to turn around / to spin | dawwar / idawwar |
| sar | isir | to be time / to be cooked | sajjar / isajjar - only used for cooking) |
| fetaħ | jiftaħ | to open | |
| għalaq | jagħlaq | to close | |
| bexxaq | ibexxaq | to put ajar (a door or window) | |
| ħmar | jiħmar | to become red | ħammar / iħammar |
| sfar | jisfaq | to become yellow | saffar / isaffar |
| swied | jiswied | to become black | sewwed / isewwed |
| bjad | jibjad | to become white | bajjad / ibajjad |
| bajjad | ibajjad | to paint (walls) | |
| twieled | jitwieled | to be born | welled / iwelled |
| qam | iqum | to wake up | qajjem / iqajjem |
| qatel | joqtol | to kill someone | |
| għadd | jgħodd | to count | |
| seraq | jisraq | to steal | |
| kiser | jikser | to break | |
| kisser | ikisser | to break | |
| feraq | jofroq | to take apart a seam (of clothes) | |
| ħiet | jħit | to sew (clothes) | |
| rebaħ | jirbaħ | to win | rebbaħ / irebbaħ |
| tilef | jitlef | to lose (both lose a game and lose an object) | tellef / itellef |
| siefer | isiefer | to travel | |
| saffar | isaffar | to whistle | |
| qala' | jaqla' | to receive / to remove / to vomit | |
| lesta | ilesti | to finish | |
| kesaħ | jiksaħ | to become cold | kessaħ / ikessaħ |
| saħan | jisħon | to become warm | saħħan / isaħħan |
| ħaraq | jaħraq | to burn | |
| ħa | jieħu | to take | |
| samat | jismot | to scald | |
| bired | jibred | to cool off | berred / iberred |
| ħass | iħoss | to feel | |
| ċempel | iċempel | to phone | |
| daqq | idoqq | to play an instrument | |
| xamm | ixomm | to smell | |
| biegħ | ibiegħ | to sell | |
| xtara | jixtri | to buy | |
| tjieb | jitjieb | to become better | tejjeb / itejjeb |
| ħżien | jiħżien | to become worse / to expire | |
| tqal | jitlaq | to become heavier / harder | taqqal / itaqqal |
| ħfief | jiħfief | to become lighter / easier | |
| tar | jtir | to fly | tajjar / itajjar |
| beża' | jibża' | to be scared | beżża' / ibeżża' |
- Excellent :D I'll start workin on some of these today — [Ric Laurent] — 12:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
- Awesome! I'm making another list, I'll post that when it has grown somewhat----keithl 12:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
- Sweet :) I've got a couple of questions. First one: libes is getting dressed, is getting undressed neża or neża'? Second one, I want to add an example sentence for "tilef", so would "I lost my new book" be "Tlift ktieb ġdid tiegħi" or "Tlift ktiebi ġdid"? — [Ric Laurent] — 16:29, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
- It would be neża'. As for the translation, the most "natural sounding" to me would be "Tlift il-ktieb il-ġdid tiegħi" ("Tlift ktieb ġdid tiegħi" would translate to "I lost one of my new books", whereas the second example would be "Tlift ktiebi l-ġdid", although it sounds too "poetic" for everyday use)