Wiktionary talk:Descendants

Format for Descendants section

(copied from User talk:EncycloPetey)

I'm wary of listing English terms as Descendants of a Latin word (as I see you did with caseus > caseifaction). Descendants are etymological - well, descendants of a word as it ‘becomes’ a different language. As I'm sure you know, it's very important in etymology to distinguish such words from borrowings. The classic case is the two Spanish words palabra and parabola, both from Latin parabola but one borrowed and one a natural descendant. So I really think Latin =Descendants= should be limited to the Romance languages, whereas other terms should go under =See also= or maybe =Related terms=. Widsith 11:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

They couldn't go under =Related terms=, since that header is only for words in the same language as the entry. See also is typically used for same language words that have a related concept, but are not etymologically or morphologically related, and which can't be classified as a synonym or antonym. Descendants is really the logical location for such words.

I don't see that it's as important for us to distinguish between descendants that evolve within a language from those that are borrowed wholsale. Borrowings change too, especially in terms of inflections. That said, English is the one language where I really feel we should include descendants that have "jumped" the boundaries of language families. This is the English wiktionary, and it is very useful for users to be able to relate English words using those roots. --EncycloPetey 17:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

They couldn't go under =Related terms=, since that header is only for words in the same language as the entry. See also is typically used for same language words that have a related concept, but are not etymologically or morphologically related, and which can't be classified as a synonym or antonym. Descendants is really the logical location for such words.

I don't see that it's as important for us to distinguish between descendants that evolve within a language from those that are borrowed wholsale. Borrowings change too, especially in terms of inflections. That said, English is the one language where I really feel we should include descendants that have "jumped" the boundaries of language families. This is the English wiktionary, and it is very useful for users to be able to relate English words using those roots. --EncycloPetey 17:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with EncycloPetey on this one. Regardless of whether a word arrives in a language via normal language evolution or via borrowing, it still traces its descent back to the etymon, and should thus be listed as a descendent. However, what we could do to make the distinction clear is add a qualifier that could possibly look something like this (I can't think of proper terminology here, but I imagine my idea is conveyed nonetheless):

Descendants

• palabra (Linear descendant)
• parabola (Borrowed from Latin)

Atelaes 19:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Believe me, it is important to make the distinction. Etymological dictionaries do not even include borrowings, because they are extremely confusing when you're tryiong to make comparisons between the way a word has evolved in different languages. But as long as some kind of distinction is made that would be fine. I suggest just something simpler like:

Descendants

• palabra
• parabola (borrowing)

...or maybe putting borrowings in brackets? Widsith 14:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, this is getting to be a policy discussion. We ought to start a page for Wiktionary:Descendants and copy a note to the Beer Parlour regarding the discussion. --EncycloPetey 15:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't get it. Wouldn't borrowings go under "Derived terms"? —Ruakh_TALK 18:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

No, because =Derived terms= is only for links to entries in the same language as the entry in which they appear. Only =Descendants= and =Translations= provide links across languages. --EncycloPetey 21:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

So my preferred option is still to have borrowings under =See also=. Widsith 19:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Just to be nitpicky, etymology also provides links across languages. Atelaes 21:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)