Appendix talk:Swedish pronunciation

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All sound files are correct to my ears, if the speaker is some kind of Mälardal (Mälaren Valley) speaker. But the IPA usage seems incorrect (a non-Swede may compare what he/she hears with what he/she reads):

"ful" is not pronounced /fʉːl/, where /ʉ/ denotes high central rounded vowel – far from that! – but /fyʾːl/, where /yʾ/ is my best try to represent high front over-rounded vowel. Actually (and by the sound files), in real life it's pronounced /fyʾɥl/, where /ɥ/ unlike by it's Unicode description, represents bilabial frictionless continuant/semi-vowel, which is actually a correct alternative usage, possibly obsolete. However, by convention, and since all "long vowels" in Swedish actually are diphtongs, the long vowel marker ː is used in Swedish phonetics. /ʉ/ have never been used for high front over-rounded vowel as far as I know, however. In Swedish phonetics, one, from Unicode missing, glyph is used, like /ɯ/ but with the central bar only half long.

/ɵ/ for usage in "full" /fɵl/ is probably an error – it should instead be /fʉl/. There are central Svealand dialects where the distinction between "full" and "föll" is dissolved, but that is uncommon in Swedish in general, so that the pair is either pronounced /fʉl/ ~ /fɵl/ (my own dialect, two distinct central rounded vowels), or /fʉl/ ~ /føl/ (one high central rounded vowel, one semi-high front rounded vowel). Rursus 10:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Caveat: it may well be true that Swedish language authors use IPA glyphs erroneously to represent any phonetic sound, it has happened before. Rursus 10:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm a complete novice in this area, but a while ago someone on sv:wikt wanted to change all /ʉ/ to /ʉ̟/ - would that be (more) correct? But anyhow, if these are wrong, one would also need to take a look at w:Swedish_phonology (and sv:w:Svensk fonologi), as the same characters are used there. \Mike 21:41, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Differentiating /ʉ/ from /ʉ̟/ is relevant in an encyclopedic article discussing phonetics, but for a pronunciation guide it only adds IPA-dinkiness which is satisfying only to people with an in-depth knowledge of IPA. Pronunciation guides don't really benefit from using more symbols unless it's actually required to separate phonemes from one another. As for the description of the short "u", see The Handbook of the International Phonetic Association.
Peter Isotalo 11:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The Swedish long u is quite problematic. I'd describe it as a near-front near-close overrounded vowel and write it phonetically as [ʏ̹ː]. When I try to teach foreigners how to pronounce the Swedish long u I usually tell them to form a y, assuming they know how to do that, and then to curl their lips inwards, a bit like when you whistle. That usually does the trick. I believe there are dialects however where it is in fact pronounced [ʉː]. I assume the use of /ʉ/ is because it's the closest sign available if one wants to avoid diacritics. It's also a good choice since it actually resembles a u. (The ɯ-like sign is from the Landsmålsalfabet. The fact that it is not available in Unicode makes it a bit hard to use.) Also, take a look at Swedish phonology and you'll see that /ɵ/ for short u is quite correct. Also, only four of the Central Swedish long vowels are pronounced as diphthongs: i as /ij/, y as /yɥ/, o as /uβ/ and u as /ʉβ/.
-- Tasnu Arakun 15:25, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

RFV discussion.[edit]

Note: the left-barred portion of the discussion below is copied from Wiktionary:Requests for verification archive/July 2007#Wiktionary:About Swedish/Pronunciation ERROR.

Wiktionary:About Swedish/Pronunciation seems to be misusing the IPA characters /ʉ/ and /ɵ/. I wrote more specifically about it in Wiktionary talk:About Swedish/Pronunciation. The errors might have be copied from a Swedish erroneous source. Rursus 11:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, RFV isn't really equipped to handle this sort of question. You may wish to bring it up with Peter Isotalo, who added that information. —RuakhTALK 15:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
A bit late, I know, but I think I'd like to stress once more that this is not an in-depth discussion of the finer details of phonetics and the phonemic (not phonetic) usage of IPA is very consistent with what's being used by Swedish linguists.
Peter Isotalo 13:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The Fable[edit]

Why are the informal ”dom” (de/dem) and ”sej (sig)” written in the fable? It’s usually incorrect in written language but since this is about phonetics I thought that maybe it was written how it’s pronounced or is the last example supposed to be the correct text? I just thought I would ask instead of replacing it since there maybe was a good reason why it was written like that. :) Lundgren8 20:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Maybe there should be a note that it's non-standard/colloquial, on purpose? (Rather than hidden as a html-comment, that is.)Vaste 17:17, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

syl vs kyl[edit]


Surely he's saying "kyl" rather than "syl"? I changed it, but the audiofile is still named "syl". Oh, and would kyl be [ɕyːl]? Vaste 17:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC)