Talk:впервые

Впервые

@Thadh: If you use a surface analysis, then remove the stress. Otherwise, this is a typical mistake. Why did you decide that not every accentological analysis deserves an etymology? And what does a PhD thesis have to do with it? Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 12:40, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@Gnosandes: If we go too much in depth and do this too obscurely, we lose the reader. You should be more concrete: What stages of the term are attested in writing, what other stages can we reconstruct. There is a reason etymological dictionaries aren't fond of wave theory and accentology, and that is because it is too abstract to be used.

However, if you think this analysis is concrete enough to be included, feel free to do so, but with appropriate sources. The shift впервой > впервые isn't that obvious, so you should explain that more. You could also make not of the colloquial form впервой, as it's obviously still in use in не впервой (I personally use it all the time).

Hope this helps, and if you still have questions feel free to ask. Thadh (talk) 12:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@Thadh: This is the etymology of A. Zaliznyak, I just expanded it a little (and added it here). But his analysis did not completely satisfy me and I only managed to collect material for myself from various sources:

*pь̀rvъjь (AP a) : *pьrvъ̀jь (new, AP c)

пе́рвыи : первы̀, первы́и, перво́и

пе́рвая : пе́рва́а : —

в пе́рвые : въ первы́е, в первы́е

ис пе́рва : ис пе́рьва̀ : ис перва́, ис перва̀, ис пръва̀

с пе́рва : с перва́

за пе́рва

впе́рвые (18th and 19th centuries) : впервы́е

спе́рва (18th and 19th centuries) : сперва́

испе́рва : и́сперва (Dal's Explanatory Dictionary), cf. Serbo-Croatian и̏спрва, prvȋ

пе́рво-на́перво

"Прекрасны вы, брега Тавриды… при свете утренней Киприды, как вас впервой увидел я." (A. Pushkin)

Let's forget this funny wave theory, and accentology and the Russian language cannot be considered separately in this regard.

At the moment I am in the army and it is terribly inconvenient for me to add sources (as it should be, humanly) from my phone.

With the shift впервой > впервые, everything is much easier, look at the material from above, accentological etymology wins.

And isn't the colloquial form a обстоятельство? Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 14:09, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I understand it's not easy to find sources in your situation. However, the list above seems to just be a list of equivalent parallel formations, and I also don't see how it contradicts the в+первый etymology: If there was an accentological shift, it rather supports this etymology than contradicts it. Thadh (talk) 14:44, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@Thadh: Yeah... It seems easier to me to show that пе́рвый is not equal to перво́й. This gives splitting впе́рвые : впервы́е. There was no stress shift. Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 19:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Okay I just understood what you meant. I've changed the etymology accordingly. Thadh (talk) 20:05, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@Thadh: Thank you very much (: Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 20:23, 22 June 2022 (UTC)