Talk:توتورغان

Dear @Fay Freak:, 1. please rewrite the etymology in accordance to what Stachowski actually says, if you are going to reference him. If you write something that is your own research, make it clear. Otherwise, the reader gets the impression that everything in the entry is sourced, when in fact it is not. 2. Where do these words actually occur in Old Anatolian Turkish, or even in Ottoman? Stachowski doesn't mention these languages among those they are found in. Generally, it is of utmost importance to source any word in a dead language, ideally providing a quotation. 3. /d/ and /t/ where not necessarily written with the Arabic emphatic consonants, you can find many instances of the opposite in https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:Allahverdi_Verdizade/OAT, so the argument you make there about the spelling is invalid. 4. I am highly doubtful to the possibility of anything being a learned borrowing from Chaghatai, considering the fact that it starts approximately where Old Anatolian Turkish ends. 5. IF you choose to reply, please avoid your usual strategy of writing a 5000-words essay in your Russo-German-English variety; it is tiresome and non-constructive. Yours, Verdizade

You have clearly problems with reading exactly. Below under the Old Anatolian Turkish header is a reference where Adamović particularly points out that word and that Şeyyad Hamza knew Chagatai and this spelling is peculiar. Chagatai borrowings are possible in Anatolian Turkish during the whole existence of Chagatai, possible like Persian and Arabic borrowings. It became a third foreign literary knowledge that the educated Ottoman could know, after Persian and Arabic. It is one of the languages there are fewer borrowings from, like English only very exotically borrows from Sanskrit. Why this anti-Chagatai sentiment? Old Anatolian Turkish even borrowed on the verge of Russian from Old East Slavic: ایزبه (izbe), قاپوسقه (kapuska) are very early. And it borrowed from Venetan and possibly Spanish, of course also Greek, to say nothing about Armenian and what was in the Caucasus. Nothing special about Chagatai, especially given the huge empire that was the realm of Chagatai. You fancy some romanticized Old Anatolian Turkish in a power-political vacuum that had only simple words while Turkey was a geopolitical pivot point pillaged and pillaging more, longer than any other Empire. Your dating of Chagatay is fiction. What was spoken then, some unidentifiable X Karluk language? Somehow there were written languages everywhere but no current Turkic language descends from any real attested one.

It’s called Chagatay. One also speaks of a Khorezmian Turkic but this is partially merely conventionally distinguished from Chagatay. Possibly what Adamović calls Chagatai is more properly Khwarezmian Turkic but if I had written that you would have protested even more and emphasized that this is not even in the source. One cannot make it right to everyone.

The Volga-Bulghar cognate is from Э. Н. Наджип: Регионы и этапы формирования тюркских письменных языков (2006), section Лексические архаихмы «Сирадж аль-Кулуб» and I gave this Нахдж ал-фарадис als the author it is found in. Who wrote in a Turkic language the language code for lacks on Wiktionary. Fay Freak (talk) 02:59, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: Well, auch die Sonne hat Flecken, I didn't see the second reference. I took Stachowski to refer to both the Chagatai and the OAT entries. Still, I would prefer to set the variety of the etymon to Karakhanid rather than Chagatai, since Şeyyād Ḥamza is believed to have lived in XIIIth century. PS: I must praise you for the clarity and (relative) brevity of your reply. Verdizade

@Allahverdi Verdizade Well then you should change it to the etymon you seem more fitting if you know its spelling; after all you are in the Turk lands and I am in Germany. According to the spelling in the poem you added it also behoves us if you move the Old Anatolian Turkish to توترغان, although it seemed nice to have the Chagatai (the spelling of which I also have from Courteille 1870 which I did not get around to templatize) and the Old Anatolian Turkish on the same page and the fact whether vowels are expressed plene in the attested spellings is all up to chance. Fay Freak (talk) 23:34, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Fay Freak I haven't seen Sweden being characterized as "Turk lands" to this moment, not even by the wildest Pan-Turkists. You might be the first.

I meant you to click on the link in the quotation to the Turkish translation of the poem, it contains an image of the handwriting, I was not sure whether I transferred the letters and the diacritics correctly into the digital form. Verdizade