Talk:rough-hew

Horticultural referent

Although 'rough-hewn' certainly, perhaps most often, refers to carpentry, Shakespeare's present tense verb seems to be a horticultural regionalism, consistent with 'shapes our ends', which does not join well with an explanation from carpentry. Mary Z. Maher, in 'Actors Talk About Shakespeare' (Limelight Editions, 2009), quotes Nicholas Pennell:

"I knew an actor who performed with Ben Greet’s company in Stratford-upon-avon. He went out for a drive one day and got hopelessly lost and came upon two men. The actor asked the men for directions back to Stratford, and then he asked them about their work. The thick-set hedges in England were made by cutting the hazel twigs in half on a slant-cut through the stem and then bending it and winding it in with other hazel twigs. the man said, “Yessir, that’s what we do, sir, he and I work together near thirty year now. He rough-hews them, and I shapes their ends.” Here was a stage image [found in Hamlet, V.ii.10, “there’s a divinity that shapes our ends, rough-hew them how we will”] wedded directly to the earth and not available in most of the scholarly books."

Douglas Michael Massing 07:39, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Origins and meanings of course aren't the same thing. --Mglovesfun (talk) 08:17, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Nor do I claim they are (more below). Douglas Michael Massing 08:47, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• Hi, I'm sorry but I rolled back that change as it's far too specific. Your reference shows that it was used in horticultural situations, but it doesn't provide any evidence that this was the primary or the earliest sense. In fact the earliest uses of the word, in the middle sixteenth century, are all in reference to rough-hewing timber or stone. Ƿidsiþ 08:18, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

No worries. Thanks for the reminder to be more thorough, and I'm sorry that I was not. The Shakespeare quote still seems to me not apt to the broader definition, OED notwithstanding. "Either that wallpaper goes, or I do." Douglas Michael Massing 08:47, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree more citations would improve things immeasurably. If you find any, please go ahead and add them. Ƿidsiþ 08:57, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, my OED is open, but it's way past my bedtime. Thanks for the guidance, I may be back. [insert generic, mock-sympathetic, appreciative joke about your having a thorn in your name] Douglas Michael Massing 09:06, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

OK, after sleeping on these questions, here is my thought: The problem is that the most famous and oft-quoted use of this verb in the present tense is Shakespeare's. A naive visitor to Wiktionary seeking enlightenment on that quote encounters a definition that, while consistent with verb's role as the source of the more common participial adjective, sheds no light on Shakespeare's usage. My instinct as a dictionary user is that I would welcome a second definition, tagged as a regionalism and illuminating the relationship between the parallel verbs. Would it be within Wiktionary's purview and protocol to add such a second definition, and to segregate quotes accordingly? Best to all, Douglas Michael Massing 19:54, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

If there are two separate senses, then yes, they should have separate definitions, and each quotation should be listed under the appropriate definition. —Ruakh_TALK 20:07, 18 April 2011 (UTC)