Talk:tīkls

tīkla audums — network fabric

tīkla audums is defined as network fabric, which appears to be a computing term such as discussed at [1]. Is that what's intended? --BB12 (talk) 01:10, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Again thanks for your interest! First, let me say I'm not a native speaker of English (and I'm certainly not a specialist in weaving, cloth, embroidery, or any such topic) -- so the questions you ask simply show that I've chosen the wrong translation (o me miserum). I'm also not a native speaker of Latvian, I'm simply trying to learn it. No, a computing term is certainly not what I was aiming for.

The first meaning of tīkls here basically reflects the first sense in the LLVV (Latviešu Literārās Valodas Vārdnīca or Dictionary of the Latvian Literary Language; this site). The basic idea is that of a fabric or material made of fiber-like interwoven elements (thread, string, line, plastic fibers, etc.) with clear intestitial spaces, like the material used to make fishing nets, or soccer/football nets, or certain kinds of fruit bags or sacks (the oranges I buy in the local market come inside a little bag made of this kind of material). This is the material (cloth? fabric?) that (I believe) the LLVV refers to with the words "tīkla audums" ("audums" by itself simply means 'fabric', 'cloth'). I.e., fishing nets, soccer/football nets, etc. are made of "tīkla audums". The example about 'knitting' or 'weaving' "tīkla audums" refer to the process of producing this material.

So, what would you call that in English? I thought 'network fabric' or 'net fabric' might translate that, but that was a(n informed) guess; my Oxford Picture Dictionary unfortunately lacks any picture with this material on it. I thought about 'mesh fabric', but I wasn't sure (it's not entirely clear to me how a 'mesh' is different from a 'network'; I thought 'mesh' was something more solid (like metal), whereas network here at Wiktionary seemed to have meanings that were more fabric-like), and a few Google searches weren't really helpful. I'll be grateful for any help with that! --Pereru (talk) 23:37, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not an expert, either, but here are my thoughts. First, Google Images is really useful to check on things like this. Overall, I think "network" should be deleted from the first definition. Although the first definition of network is correct, this meaning has grown uncommon, so mesh is better. (See Google Images for "knit a mesh," for example.)

Also, I think changing "smalks, rupjš tīkls — delicate, coarse mesh, network" to smalks tīkls; rupjš tīkls — delicate mesh; coarse mesh" is much easier to understand.

Google Images shows that "mesh fabric" is probably correct.

I looked on Google Images for "mesh eyes," "eyes of mesh" and "eyes in mesh," but I didn't see anything that matched. I wasn't thorough and "eyes in a mesh" certainly seems reasonable, but "mesh hole(s)" certainly has many positive hits.

I'm concerned about the word "knit." That specifically means to use two needles to create fabric from yarn. If that meaning is covered, that's okay.

For definition 4, I would delete "network-like." I'm not sure what a "work sequence chart" is. I think "degree grid" should probably be "coordinate grid."

For definition 5, "network" seems fine to me.

Also, some of the English examples are missing articles. According to w:Latvian_grammar#Nouns_and_adjectives, Latvian words incorporate the article in the noun, so I do not want to guess how those should be changed (or perhaps they are fine).

That's a lot of suggestions, but the examples are really good. I'm really impressed. --BB12 (talk) 07:24, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I certainly appreciate suggestions, and I'm glad you had the time to make these. I'll change network to mesh. I'm not sure about repeating the word with adjectives -- I think the results are often a bit repetitive, and I kinda like the "smalks, rupjš tīkls" style (it's how both my Latvian dictionaries do it). I see how much Google Images helps -- thanks! I could change 'eyes' to 'holes', but one could also leave it as a literary translation with a parenthetical explanation -- "mesh eyes (= holes)". Wouldn't that be better? Would you also prefer the word sew (a mesh) rather than knit? I'll delete the 'network-like' as you suggest. I thought about 'coordinate grid' instead of 'network grid', but wouldn't that suggest all kinds of (Cartesian) coordinate grids, like the ones used for graphs at school? That particular example refers only to longitude-latitude grids used to represent the Earth's surface... I'll have a look at the English articles in the examples. Again, thanks! --Pereru (talk) 22:06, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the update. I'll try to look at the other words you suggested on my user page.

The reason I'm concerned about the adjectives is that you have to really look at it to understand what it's saying. "delicate, coarse mesh" appears to mean "a mesh that is delicate and coarse" (which might be possible in English) but your intention is to provide two examples. They do that in paper dictionaries because space is so precious, but on Wiktionary, I think it's better to repeat and be completely clear.

Although "mesh eyes" seems like it's probably correct, I personally cannot say for sure. I did a quick search on Google Books, and the hits I found mean "eyes with mesh material" or "mesh-like holes," not "holes in a mesh," so I'm not completely comfortable with that expression. Also, it says "mesh holes (= mesh size)," but "holes" is plural and "size" is singular; does "acis " work for both in Latvian? "Sew" seems better, though it depends on the scope of "adīt." The verb "sew" means to create with a needle and thread (by hand or with a sewing machine). I'm not sure about "longitude/latitude" but Wikipedia has geographic coordinate system. --BB12 (talk) 02:05, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Two more things occurred to me. "smalks (rupjš) tīkls — delicate (coarse) mesh" is clear and saves space. Also, does "smalks" means "fragile, easy to break"? If "smalks" is supposed to mean that the mesh holes are small, "fine" is the word that should be used. --BB12 (talk) 02:55, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

For the adjectives: to forestall all ambiguity, I went ahead and made two separate examples out of 'delicate' and 'coarse' mesh. If you think 'mesh holes' works but aren't sure about 'mesh eyes', then it would seem the prudent course of action is to keep 'holes', not 'eyes', right? As for 'size': no, 'acis' is 'eyes', plural (sing. acs); I added 'mesh size' because (if I understood correctly the explanation I found in the LLVV) "tīkla acis" can be used to talk about the mesh sizes (i.e. are the "tīkla acis" big or small?). I'm not entirely sure how meshes are actually made, but since line is often involved, I suspect that (at least originally, pre-industrially) some sort of sewing procedure was involved. The LLVV definition for "adīt" is Gatavot (ko) no vienlaidu pavediena, ar īpašām adatām saistot to ciešos valdziņos, which means "to make (something) from a continuous filament, with a special needle tying it in tight stitches" -- which makes 'knitting' sound better as a translation, doesn't it? But then again -- even if one says "to knit a mesh" in Latvian, does one in English? And shouldn't the translation be ultimately the English expression for 'making a mesh'? --Pereru (talk) 13:56, 2 July 2012 (UTC)