User talk:Brat Forelli

Inheritance

most of those dictionaries will never mention Old Polish and they don't do it for Polish either. This doesn't mean we shouldn't list Old Polish as the ancestor. Vininn126 (talk) 21:27, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your response, though I disagree with the reverts and would prefer being talked to first.

As you said, dictionaries of Silesian do place origins of Silesian words in Proto-Slavic, including the one I am referring to. My question would be - why should we ignore these dictionaries and use Old Polish (and only Old Polish apparently) instead for the origin?

For me the answer appears clear - the problem with Silesian is that it is the matter of a debate on whether it is a dialect, or ethnolect, or a language. By making it all Old Polish, not only do we contradict these dictionaries, but we also lead to weird situations where Kashubian "krzidło" is from Proto-Slavic but Silesian is from Old Polish. This is most likely because you believe that Silesian is just a dialect.

But here's the thing - this is by no means something that can be treated by a fact, and it is disputed by linguists. An example of a work that argues Silesian is a language and provides replies to common "Silesian as a dialect" arguments would be "Krytyka prób emancypacji śląszczyzny. Płaszczyzna naukowa (lingwistyczna)" by Henryk Jaroszewicz.

I think it would be way more neutral, and provable, to list the Proto-Slavic origins of Silesian words. I do not think we should treat the view of Silesian being a dialect as an objective fact on Wiktionary, and I am open to settle the issue if needed. Brat Forelli (talk) 21:36, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

You are reading a lot into the situation. We are not ignoring Proto-Slavic origin, as the template above {{inh+}} handles that, and if you check the Proto-Slavic page Silesian is there. I do not believe Silesian is a mere dialect, I have fought doggedly for it's status as an L2 and even support making certain other ethnolects in Poland an L2, but the vast majority of scholars recognize it's common heritage, and even Henryk Jaroszewicz implies it by saying Księgi Henrykowskiej is shared heritage. If Silesian were a dialect, it would not have an L2 at all, compare how we treat CAT:Northern Borderlands Polish. Vininn126 (talk) 21:41, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, Kashubian has nothing to do with the origin of Silesian - it's Pomeranian and does not share the same sound changes that Old Polish lects have. The current set up we have it akin to

Old Galician-Portuguese giving rise to Portuguese/Galician whereas French (Kashubian) is on a separate branch. Vininn126 (talk) 21:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I see, thank you so much for the explanation and I am sorry for assuming too much. You know what you're doing and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Thanks! Brat Forelli (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I came across as aggressive at all! It's easy to get emotionally charged, especially when it comes to this. For what it's worth, Tusk has promised to give Silesian at least minority status this year, hopefully solidifying its position. You should also check who wrote w:Silesian grammar and w:Silesian orthography ;) I hope I didn't scare you off. Hope to see you in recent changes more. I also invite you to WT:Discord, where I am active, if you want.

Final comment on "not agreeing with sources" - most Polish etymologies don't directly mention Old Polish either - but we still infer inheritance. Vininn126 (talk) 22:13, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oh! Great job on these articles, your work on Silesian grammar is outstanding and you've got a really comprehensive article over there! Damn, I had no damnest idea whom I was speaking to. Thank you so much for your great work, I should think of contributing to it as well; in a more helpful way this time, at least :|

I admit, I was very excited by the promise of Donald Tusk and I really hope that he will be able to implement it. Of course, how impactful this would be is yet to be seen, but it's something to look forward, and that's what matters! Thank you for the invitation to Discord as well <3

Take care! Brat Forelli (talk) 22:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Completely unrelated, would you be so inclined to set up a babel box on your userpage? I have one on mine, for reference. Vininn126 (talk) 22:32, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I need to work on my user page. Thank you! Brat Forelli (talk) 22:34, 14 January 2024 (UTC)