Wiktionary talk:Votes/2022-01/New phrasebook regulations

Which is more “normal”, familiar or polite?

In the languages with T—V distinction that I know (somewhat), the default is to use polite versions. Using a familiar form with someone you are not actually that familiar with is condescending and rude – except for an adult addressing a child. So I suspect it is better to use the labels “familiar” and “polite (default)”.  --Lambiam 18:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I grouped it like that because to me it (generally) feels like the polite form is the familiar form with something "added" (hoş geldin / hoş geldiniz, ce faci? / ce faceți?) (I know that this is not always the case morphologically, hence "feels"). However, I really don't feel strongly about this and I see your point. Let's wait for one or two more people to comment on this. Fytcha (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

The difference between hoş geldin and hoş geldiniz is simply the difference between the singular 2nd-person suffix -n and the plural 2nd-person suffix -niz added to the past tense suffix -di. In Turkish, as in many other languages, including many Germanic and Romance languages, the T—V distinction corresponds with the grammatical difference between singular and plural for the 2nd person, not only in idiomatic phrases but in all speech acts addressing one second person.  --Lambiam 11:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

@Fytcha Apologies for not mentioning this earlier, but for me, the labeling "normal" is a bit confusing and unclear because for a lot of languages the "normal" form is the polite form as Lambiam mentioned, even if it's something added. Not sure if that can be changed at the moment, but wanted to add my two cents. I don't have an issue with the proposal otherwise though! AG202 (talk) 19:38, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

@AG202: Thanks for the input! I don't think it can be changed anymore but we can just have a BP discussion after the vote has concluded and make some small amends before we start implementing the changes. {{Template:policy-VOTE}} allows this by saying that only substantial or contested changes require a formal vote; I'm sure for something like this (the label to use instead of "normal" or which box the "politeness-less" terms go into) it is totally within reason. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 19:50, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

That makes sense, thanks for the quick response! AG202 (talk) 19:54, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Too complicated

I think having different translations in different tables makes sense, but I think the proposed approach makes it far too complicated. I'm not confident that the average user will know how to navigate the translation tables. Odds are that if they find a phrasebook helpful, they may not have a sufficient grasp of the language to know whether it has a "formal/informal" distinction or a "polite/familiar" distinction or both. I think there should simply be three tables: one for normal/familiar/informal forms, one for formal forms, and one for polite forms, perhaps with an accompanying note that explains to users that not all languages will have all three forms so that they don't think a table is "incomplete" if, say, French doesn't have a "polite" form. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 17:07, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Re "they may not have a sufficient grasp of the language to know whether it has a "formal/informal" distinction or a "polite/familiar" distinction or both.": In which case they simply don't find any entry for that language in that box. I don't quite see the problem with that (please point it out to me if you see this differently!). It is very likely that they will first click on the box with "normal" in its title (which is also the first one) and find their desired translation there.

Re "I think there should simply be three tables": Note that this is more complicated than what I had proposed. For most entries, I propose using just two boxes: one for "normal/familiar" and one for "polite" (further boxes (under my proposal) come from more senses, singular/plural, etc., not from a finer honorific distinction). Furthermore, from what I've understood from this discussion, there are languages that feature all 4 combinations (formal+polite, formal+familiar, informal+polite, informal+familiar), which is much more easily documented using two translation boxes. Also, what exactly would you put into formal and polite under your counterproposal? Where would the Vs of T-V distinguishing languages land?

I agree with the explanatory note point though! Maybe we should start all phrasebook translation sections with a small template that explains the differences, that not every language has an entry in every box etc. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 17:44, 11 January 2022 (UTC)