Talk:بلوط
What is the relation of the Indo-Germanic words like Ancient Greek βᾰ́λᾰνος (bálanos) to the Semitic ballūṭ? Is the second half of the Indo-European root related to the word which is reflected as Akkadian 𒀠𒆷𒀭 (ʾallānu, alyānu, “oak; acorn”), Aramaic אִילָנָא / ܐܺܝܠܳܢܳܐ (ʾīlānā, “tree”), Hebrew אֵלָה (ʾelā, “terebinth”), Hebrew אֵילִים (ēlīm, “mighty tree”), Hebrew אֵלֹון (elōn, “great tree”), Hebrew אַלּוֹן (allōn, “great tree; oak”)? In view of this I am not so sure in the derivation of Aramaic בְּלוּטָא / ܒܠܘܛܐ (bəllūṭā, ballūṭā, “oak”) from Akkadian 𒋾 (balāṭu, “to live, to remain, to be enduring; to bring back to life, life-bringing trees or seeds”), particularly if we have no corresponding Akkadian word “acorn”. Is it the passive participle 𒁄𒇻𒂅 (balluṭu, “revived”)? For Akkadian seems not to have used this root for “oak”, I have searched the B volume of the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary for this string, while Aramaic does not seem to have used the word ballūṭā in a more general meaning. @Profes.I. – Fay Freak (talk) 18:04, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
- According to Nšanyan, the Aramaic and Arabic are borrowed from βαλανίδιον (balanídion), a diminutive of βᾰ́λᾰνος (bálanos). I find βαλανίδιον (balanídion, “Eichelsteuer”) and βελανίδιον (belanídion, “Eicheln; Eichelsteuer”) in LBG. If this is correct, then the Akkadian word is unrelated. In any case, the Semitic is not needed to explain the PIE formation of Ancient Greek βᾰ́λᾰνος (bálanos). --Vahag (talk) 20:09, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
- Uwe Bläsing in Armenisch-Türkisch. Etymologische Betrachtungen ausgehend von Materialien aus dem Hemşingebiet (1995), pages 102–104, adduces many other cognates and argues for an ancient Wanderwort of uncertain ultimate origin. --Vahag (talk) 20:19, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
- You have to add what is written in Bläsing by yourself, that book is hard to access. For that el-word, I should have added Latin īlex (“holm oak”). Now that makes a story.
- I also call your attention to Arabic سِنْدِيَان (sindiyān, “oak, holm oak”). Fay Freak (talk) 22:00, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
- There is a reference in the period of Sargon II describing an inventory of resources including numerous tracts of a tree-type in the vicinity of Ḥarran called 𒄑𒁁𒀖 (be-lit, baluṭ, “a strong tree, bearing edible produce, sustainable in more northerly fringes of the Assyrian Empire”) although with most readings it up to interpretations (namely as vineyards or as date palms with alternate sign readings), a common longstanding suggested identification has been a "white oak" species. Profes.I. (talk) 22:13, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
- But period of Sargon II suggests it is borrowed from Aramaic, as if Löw is right. @Profes.I. – We are eager about the further cognate terms, @Vahagn Petrosyan. Fay Freak (talk) 23:52, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
- Just giving some context as to what possible earlier Semitic references were known; it may very well be from the bulging sense. There are also other meanings of the Aramaic root "b-l-ṭ" namely to be rotten, to be an obstruction or block, also giving potential etymologies. I do not believe there is a conclusive evidence showing a chain of development unfortunately, perhaps the best course of action is to list the potential lines of thought. Profes.I. (talk) 00:14, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak, Bläsing's German is too difficult for me. You can view the excerpt yourself here. --Vahag (talk) 15:14, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
- Just giving some context as to what possible earlier Semitic references were known; it may very well be from the bulging sense. There are also other meanings of the Aramaic root "b-l-ṭ" namely to be rotten, to be an obstruction or block, also giving potential etymologies. I do not believe there is a conclusive evidence showing a chain of development unfortunately, perhaps the best course of action is to list the potential lines of thought. Profes.I. (talk) 00:14, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
- But period of Sargon II suggests it is borrowed from Aramaic, as if Löw is right. @Profes.I. – We are eager about the further cognate terms, @Vahagn Petrosyan. Fay Freak (talk) 23:52, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
More cognates[edit]
I just got the idea that you probably know further cognates @Crom daba, + can perhaps add the Chagatai script. I wanted to give you a chance to make this article even more bloated. Fay Freak (talk) 21:47, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
- It appears as if the word didn't break on through to Kipchak lands and Siberia, although I of course didn't dig through every dictionary.
- Also my usual source of Chagatai spelling, Dictionnaire Turk-Oriental, doesn't have this word (or I didn't recognize it), and I cannot read Ottoman so Словарь джагатайско-турецкий (al Sharif's dictionary) is out of my reach. Maybe @Anylai can help? Crom daba (talk) 22:26, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
- Actually these might be one and the same (Abushka), maybe looking there is a waste of time. Crom daba (talk) 22:38, 25 August 2018 (UTC)