User talk:Vahagn Petrosyan

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Thanks for fixing პრინცესა (princ’esa); I apologise for perpetuating and entrenching the preëxisting error. Re принцесса (princessa), are you sure it derives from the German Prinzessin? de:Prinzessin states that, up till the nineteenth century, the usual form was Prinzess / Prinzeß. If принцесса was borrowed before the 19th C., one of those etyma would've been a more likely candidate. Plus, the addition of (-a) is easier to explain that the removal of -in (especially if exists as a feminine suffix in Russian as well as Serbo-Croatian). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:11, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I noticed that the mistake was introduced by Embryomystic's inappropriate use of {{borrowing}}. As for принцесса, it was borrowed during Peter the Great's reign. According to Vasmer the etymon is Prinzessin but I think Prinzess is more likely. Let's be bold and change the etymology. --Vahag (talk) 17:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. I've created Prinzess and added принцесса as a descendant, accordingly. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 18:05, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Comment from an IP[edit]

I don't know how to leave a comment here, but I was shocked to see that no one knew the genitive for the German word "das Kino". One does not even need to know German to consult the Duden Dictionary, to see that everything that I posted is a fact, in-line with the currently accepted German grammar rules. I apologize if I did not edit "EXACTLY" the way that is accepted on Wiktionary, but I was just trying to provide information that someone might later put in the appropriate format for this site. The partative IS only expressed though the genitive in German. I have the physical dictionary in front of me. I'm sure that internet links can be found on the internet, but I want to just give you the facts. How can you prove or disprove them if you erase them immediately? This seems very bias. :( —This unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs).

I explained to you that the German entry is at Kino, not kino. --Vahag (talk) 16:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


Are you sure that this Modern Greek word has descendants in those languages - are they not from Ancient or Byzantine/Mediaeval Greek? — Saltmarshαπάντηση 18:18, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

My sources on Ukrainian and Romanian explicitly say "from New Greek". --Vahag (talk) 18:33, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to doubt you !) — Saltmarshαπάντηση 11:17, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
As rightly you should be! Know you not that Vahag's genetic material comes straight from the gargantuan balls of God (որը մեր հիմար մոլորություններից դուրս գոյություն չունի)? — [Ric Laurent] — 16:57, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
 :D --Vahag (talk) 16:55, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

թե, թե՞ որ[edit]

Hey man. I've been looking at these trying to figure out the difference. It looks like որ can be used as a conjunction or (with -ը/ն) a relative pronoun, but that թե is only used as a conjunction. It kind of looks like they're synonymous as conjunctions, but is there any little coloring of meaning that isn't obvious? — [Ric Laurent] — 15:46, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

You are right, թե is only used as a conjunction. Թե and որ are synonymous, but they are used in different contexts. As a native speaker, I have not paid attention to what governs their use and my head hurts trying to figure out the difference. So I have to copy-paste Dum-Tragut: "թե is particularly often used introducing interrogative sentences with interrogative pronouns but it also serves to introduce reported speech clauses governed by certain verbs." I don't know if this is helpful. --Vahag (talk) 16:28, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
I hate when that happens, being unable to figure out differences between similar words. Especially in languages like mine that way overuse prepositions. Like. "Meet up"? This isn't going down in heaven. Up makes no damn sense.
The reported speech part makes sense. Like... Եղբայրս ասաց, թե բլաբլաբլա? The first part is a little weird. I can't imagine why one would need an interrogative pronoun in the introduced sentence... like... What? It... Yeah, it hurts my brain also lol :D Still, it's helpful enough, even if I'm not an expert lol.
That reminds me, I was going to tell you I ordered this book by Andranik last week, Առաքելոց վանքին կռիւը. (It took me a minute to figure out because of the weird font on the cover lol.) I wish I had enough to afford Dum-Tragut. I should've gotten it while I had the chance. The pdf just isn't the same. — [Ric Laurent] — 13:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
I think Dum-Tragut means cases like this: Ես չգիտեմ, թե ինչու դա արեցի։ (Es čʿgitem, tʿe inčʿu da arecʿi.), Ես տեսա, թե ինչ եղավ։ (Es tesa, tʿe inčʿ ełav.). Interrogative pronouns are bold. Are you going to read Andranik in Armenian? --Vahag (talk) 15:00, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Seeing it like that makes more sense now. In those kinds of sentences, the թե doesn't translate at all, it's just a grammatical thing. Man, I haven't seen something like that in a while.... That actually did make that part a lot clearer, but now I have one more question on the reported speech thing. Hopefully it's the last one I have on this lol. How freely can թե and որ be interchanged? Եւ՛ <ասացին, որ ուզում են> եւ՛ <ասացին, թե ուզում են> կոշեր ե՞ն։
I might try to read it, but the most we can say for sure is that I will own Andranik in Armenian lol. Saw some other stuff on eBay that looked like it could be interesting. One was a book of poetry in Armenian. The other had a sexy cover. I can't remember what it was called offhand, I'll have to look... — [Ric Laurent] — 16:46, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
In that example they are interchangeable. The first sounds more colloquial to me. Andranik's book is in Western Armenian and Traditional Orthography. Good luck :) --Vahag (talk) 19:49, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Aw fuck. I could probably handle TO for the most part, but Western Armenian fucks my brain like a really sexually talented man fucks a cheap unsuspecting prostitute. Anyway, maybe I can get some vocabulary out of it. lol. For an example sentence, is this grammar all g? Ի՞նչ է, որի մասին ուզում ես խոսել։ (What is it that you want to talk about?) — [Ric Laurent] — 21:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Nice simile, writer's talent shines through :) Use Ինչի՞ մասին ես ուզում խոսել։ --Vahag (talk) 22:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
That's probably what I would have said normally; I just wanted to try to be fancy, test out the grammar lol. Oh! Վահրամ Սահակյանի Հավերժ Կախաղան։ That was the other book I saw on eBay. The one with the սեքսուալ cover. Wikipedia declares it romance novel, which worries me. American romance novels are...something else. I hope this one is violent or something. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Vahram Sahakian is a famous potty mouth and алконавт. Could be good. --Vahag (talk) 22:44, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm so wildly curious.... It'd probably be worth the price. I'm going to have to find out what it's about. — [Ric Laurent] — 23:41, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Турецкие существительные[edit]

Привет Вааг,

Может быть лучше изменить {{tr-noun}}, чтобы (definite accusative [ [ ] ]) не показывалось и сделать этот параметр не обязательным, если этот шаблон сделан специально для турецкого? Носителям языка будет легче работать с таким шаблоном, чем переделывать {{head}}. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:16, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Привет, Анатолий. Я поэкспериментировал с {{tr-noun}} и побоялся там что-то изменить, сломаю. В любом случае проблема не в этом конкретном {{tr-noun}}, а в безответственном поведении Lo Ximiendo. До этого она добавляла неправильные hyphenation для русского и армянского. Сейчас несёт всякую антинаучную х*%ню. Этому должен быть положен конец. --Vahag (talk) 11:05, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Наверное ты прав. Она перестала обращать внимание на просьбы других участников. У нее было много полезного редактирования с арабским, польским, немецким, похоже она смогла разобраться даже с шаблонами склонения и спряжения, хотя Maro отменял все ее правки. Кстати, я не видел неправильного слогоделения для русского. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:33, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Да, жаль терять пользователя. Насчёт русского слогоделения не помню, но она добавляля слогоделение для армянского (точно неправильное), грузинского, амхарского, сирийского, и т.д. Некому проверить правильность последних. --Vahag (talk) 06:46, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Reference template data[edit]

All those abbreviations are killing me. Do you think it would be wise to relocate it into per-language Lua tables? Additional benefits would be 1) ability for smart post-processing for generation of external URLs, reducing the overall number of parameters 2) eliminate abbreviations, e.g. {{R|lang-code|author=X|Year=Y|page=Z}} would suffice (or add additional support for abbreviations and optional reference-specific parameters) 3) uniform layout. WP's citation module subsystem is very complex and we need a fraction of its layout functionality, which could easily be manually replicated. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 19:42, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think it would be wise. Another benefit of having tables of references is avoiding duplicate reference templates. I had to delete {{IEW}} today. Eliminating abbreviations altogether is not a good idea; some references are much better known by their abbreviations. Besides, many references do not have authors, e.g. encyclopedias. --Vahag (talk) 21:41, 22 November 2013 (UTC)


Այս բառը չա՛րն է։ Ինչու՞ հոդ չունի։ :( — [Ric Laurent] — 17:34, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, it used to have article in archaic Eastern Armenian and still has one in contemporary Western Armenian. I don't know why we lost it. Being a non-regular plural must have played a role. --Vahag (talk) 17:42, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Is that the only word like that, with identical indefinite and definite plurals? I can't think of any others. Even the ones with plurals that look irregular to me lol.
Hey, when there's a consonant cluster at the end of the word before a vowel-initial word, like in փառքն անվերջ է :D that's pronounced [ˌpʰɑrkʰən ɑnˈvɛɾt͡ʃʰ ɛ], right?
Speaking of Western Armenian, I finally got that book and tried to read a little of it. I feel like my Eastern Armenian is getting better, but the book.. is essentially a foreign language to me lol. — [Ric Laurent] — 17:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I can think of կանայք (kanaykʿ), պարոնայք (paronaykʿ).
[ˌpʰɑrkʰn‿ɑnˈvɛɾt͡ʃʰ ɛ] sounds more natural to me, sorry :)
Even I haven't studied Western Armenian yet, but I'm planning to. --Vahag (talk) 18:01, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
[ˌpʰɑrkʰn‿ɑnˈvɛɾt͡ʃʰ ɛ] was my second guess lol.... There are a few spots like that in Վստահելի Վերջաղիքը that I'll have to ask you about. Trying to fit the words to the music is still kicking my ass.
Do you think you really have to study it? Probably just a good hard look at it would be enough lol. I imagine it's kind of like how I think of Australian or British English; different but reproducible with care? — [Ric Laurent] — 21:28, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I understand everything I read in Western Armenian but I can't contribute in it with 100% certainty. I need to study before I can construct conjugation and declension templates. --Vahag (talk) 21:36, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Ahh, tesnum em. I had considered that problem a few years ago, but with my current feelings about wiktionary it's less like a job and more like a...I dunno. Thing. I need. More booze.
Speaking of need... I need to ask you about Armenian ways of expressing need. But that booze thing was serious; I'm like at that spot where I've had too much to be coherent but if I have more I can regain some of my coherence. I don't know how the hell that works. God works in mysterious ways. Speaking of God: Աստծո = [ɑstˈt͡so] (ɑstːˈso) or [ɑstəˈt͡so]? — [Ric Laurent] — 23:19, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Well, expressing need is easy. X եմ ուզում or ուզում եմ X.
The occurrence of [ə], which is non-phonemic, gives trouble even to native speakers. Colloquially I pronounce [ɑsˈt͡so]. [ɑstəˈt͡so] and [ɑsˈt͡sːo] are probably right as well. --Vahag (talk) 10:14, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha I forgot to come back and be more specific about 'need' after I got sloshed. I usually think of expressing need for nouns and verbs. I forgot we had the entry I need your help, but I don't know how extreme a need would have to be before using կարիք ունեմ lol. But for "I need to verb," are there modal auxiliary verbs that mean like "I must X"? — [Ric Laurent] — 12:48, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Good morning, alky :) "I need to verb" is "ես պետք է verb", e.g. ես պետք է չիշիկ անեմ (es petkʿ ē čʿišik anem, I need to pee, I must pee). --Vahag (talk) 12:55, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
صبح بخیر :) The verb is subjunctive with that, right? I haven't looked a lot at subjunctive verbs. Or actually anything but present, perfect and aorist lol. It's just so...much. T_T — [Ric Laurent] — 13:14, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it is the subjunctive. I expect an English-speaking brain to blow up when it tries to understand the subjunctive. --Vahag (talk) 13:35, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha not this guy. After Romanian, Lithuanian, Persian... subjunctives are easy. I just have to learn how to make them in Armenian. — [Ric Laurent] — 13:45, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

մի թե մեկ[edit]

Եթե խոսում եմ <Մեր մոլորակը (one moon) ունի> ասել, մի լուսին թե՞ մեկ լուսին կլինի։ I feel like it should be mek lusin, but something is giving me doubt lol — [Ric Laurent] — 17:52, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

They are completely interchangeable in that example. If there is any stylistic difference, it is lost on this native speaker. --Vahag (talk) 19:01, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha cool, thanks man. :) — [Ric Laurent] — 19:48, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
You're welcome, buds. --Vahag (talk) 19:55, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
I should also ask you about the other idea that I originally had for that second example sentence, and your edit to it that gave me another question :D
In Armenian, is "there are" կան or կա? In Persian you'd use the singular for both. (هست hast)
I'll compare Persian for my second question, too. I used "ութ մոլորակնեո" because I saw those words used on the Armenian wikipedia article for solar system. But I think in that case it was used as the subject of the sentence. So in Persian, whenever you have a counting word before the noun, like هشت‌تا سیاره (hašt-tâ sayâre) you don't use a plural marker. How is it in Armenian? Is the plural marker only dropped when the counted word is an object instead of subject, or is there more subtlety I'm missing? — [Ric Laurent] — 21:10, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
"There are" is կան, "there is" is կա. Yes, the plural marker is dropped only when the counted word is an object instead of subject. That being sad, many "educated" Armenians under the influence of Russian and English do not drop the plural, e.g. Սեղանին կան չորս գրքեր։ (Sełanin kan čʿors grkʿer.), instead of Սեղանին կա չորս գիրք։ (Sełanin ka čʿors girkʿ., There are four books on the table). People with no knowledge of foreign languages speak more naturally and correctly. --Vahag (talk) 21:38, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
If you took չորս out, would it be Սեղանին կան գրքեր։ (Sełanin kan grkʿer.)? It also makes me think of another variation. If you wanted to say Իմ եղբայրները <wives> ունեն (Im ełbayrnerə <wives> unen) would wives be rendered կանանց to agree, or կնոջ? I know some languages think using singular makes it clear enough. I think Persian is like that. If you have the plural marker there it would imply definiteness. It would sound more like "they have the wives" instead of "they have wives." — [Ric Laurent] — 20:27, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes, if you take չորս out, it would be Սեղանին կան գրքեր։ (Sełanin kan grkʿer.). This will confuse you even more, but I have to tell you: some authorities claim that if there is an adjective between the number and the noun, plural should be used, e.g. Սեղանին կա չորս գիրք։ (Sełanin ka čʿors girkʿ.) but Սեղանին կան չորս հետաքրքիր գրքեր։ (Sełanin kan čʿors hetakʿrkʿir grkʿer.). Others dispute this.
Իմ եղբայրները կանայք ունեն։ (Im ełbayrnerə kanaykʿ unen.), ունենալ (unenal, to have) requires nominative. --Vahag (talk) 20:43, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Lol getting cases right in Armenian is harder than Lithuanian.... Which actually gives me another question. In Lithuanian most direct objects use accusative, but if the sentence is negative you use genitive instead. Does Armenian do anything like that, or would our married brothers' sentence just change to Իմ եղբայրները կանայք չունեն։ (Im ełbayrnerə kanaykʿ čʿunen.)? — [Ric Laurent] — 21:34, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Իմ եղբայրները կանայք չունեն։ (Im ełbayrnerə kanaykʿ čʿunen.) is right. We don't change stuff because of negative like some puny Lithuanian. --Vahag (talk) 21:38, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha thank God.... I'm gonna control myself for now, but I'll probably have more questions for you before too long lol. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:04, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Bring it on, I don't mind. --Vahag (talk) 22:05, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
All right, I've got a little one for an example sentence lol. Ես ուզում եմ հարբել, բայց <բուխլո> չունեմ։ Two things: "բուխլո" lol; and is there a word that translates as "any" where the English sentence would be "I haven't got any...", or can the negative stand by itself? — [Ric Laurent] — 22:16, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Ես ուզում եմ հարբել, բայց ընդհանրապես խմիչք չունեմ։ I don't know a slang equivalent of бухло, I'm a nice boy :) --Vahag (talk) 22:32, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
ընդհանրապես (əndhanrapes) is such a long word lol... It's in a song I know, but I can't remember the rest of the context. We don't have any pages that link to it but a frequency list. — [Ric Laurent] — 23:12, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
It's long, that's why colloquially we always use Russian вообще (voobšče). --Vahag (talk) 08:23, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
վափշե gets a pretty good amount of Google hits, should it be mentioned on ընդհանրապես (əndhanrapes) with the IPA for noobz? Thanks for making the entry, by the way, the example sentences are great. :) — [Ric Laurent] — 13:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I added several informal spellings. It is disputable whether they pass CFI, they are only used informally on the Internet and never in durably-archived writing. --Vahag (talk) 16:22, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
As an anti-elitist, I'm happy with the fact that they're mentioned, even if we don't have entries for them lol — [Ric Laurent] — 16:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I decided to also become anti-elitist after some personal, first-hand experiences. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 20:23, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Anti-elitism is good, but purging the language from Russian parasite words is good. At least from the very basic vocabulary. We should expel զատո (zato) < зато (zato), դաժը (dažə) < даже (daže), տոյիսծ (toyisc) < то есть (to jestʹ), վոփշմ (vopʿšm) < в общем (v obščem), պռոստո (pṙosto) < просто (prosto), ծիլիվիզըռ (cilivizəṙ) < телевизор (televizor)... --Vahag (talk) 20:30, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
(I have to unindent because my brain can't read narrow columns for some reason)
Armenian needs a word for "both" lol. You should write a book teaching Armenians to speak Armenian instead of Russoarmenian :) — [Ric Laurent] — 19:09, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
The trend is unfortunately in the other direction with us being drawn into the evil Eurasian Union. By the way, I was watching the Colbert Report the other day and saw a guy named Alexis Ohanian, who is the founder of Reddit. Didn't know we invented Reddit. --Vahag (talk) 19:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
American youth ruin Reddit with their nonsense. I know there are some fabled parts of it that are cool, but the multitude of knownothings makes those parts like fountains of youth or something. Our education system creates utter retards. Thank God there are some who can make it through unscathed, think for themselves, and innovate like that, though. On the news today is drones as delivery systems for online shopping. Capitalism is fucking wonderful. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I've also heard that there are people who are unplugging from both cable TV AND Internet service as well. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:59, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Some new dictionaries online[edit]

Hi Vahagn, hope you are doing well and that you'll enjoy these two jewels. More to come soon... Հայերէն Գաւառական Բառարան and Բառարան Գանձարան Հայերէն Լեզուի. Best, Սէրուժ (talk) 10:27, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

It's great to finally have these in high-quality scan and easily searchable. I will refer to Գաւառական more often now. It was a pain in the ass looking for a word in Flib's inferior pdf version. I have linked our templates to Nayiri, Template:R:hy:Gayayean and Template:R:hy:Ačaṙean:1913.
On an unrelated note: as a frequent user of Nayiri the most important feature that's missing for me is the ability to know whether a certain headword exists in a certain dictionary. Right now I have to open each dictionary separately and check. --Vahag (talk) 10:59, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Vahagn, yes the list of headwords for each dictionary and whether a certain headword exists in a given dictionary are important features. We will have that in the future. Just released Արեւմտահայերենի բառարան (1991, Երեւան). Not sure how useful it will be for you, but it's an interesting one. Hope you're keeping warm out there :) Սէրուժ (talk) 08:25, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
I have Artem Sargsyan in print, but thanks for adding it. I have noticed I haven't opened once my print HAB, Malxaseancʿ, ŽHLBB, Ałayan since they appeared on Nayiri. Sargsyan's dictionary has influenced me in my decision to treat Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian under a single header in Wiktionary. Since it is a dictionary of all differences of Western Armenian from Eastern Armenian and has only 4000 entries compared to the ~150000 word stock of modern Armenian, it makes sense not to duplicate content for the rest of 146000 words.
I wish there was a dictionary of differences of Eastern Armenian from Western Armenian. Often I add a word to Wiktionary, like գազար (gazar), and do not know whether to tag it with an (Eastern Armenian) context label, because I cannot know whether you use it too.--Vahag (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Why don't you check Հայոց Լեզուի Նոր Բառարան printed in Beirut? It's definitely the most modern Western Armenian dictionary, and probably one of the best printed. Սէրուժ (talk) 08:52, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Also, I'm glad to hear someone actually using Nayiri so often that they don't need to use their print version of the same books. My goal was two-fold: (1) make dictionaries fast and efficient to use, and (2) make the dictionaries accessible to those who don't have it, or those who don't want to carry all of those books everywhere they go, even if they do have it. So thanks for sharing your anecdotal usage. Սէրուժ (talk) 08:58, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with you on EA and WA. In my experience I find people who are less educated or have read less to think that there is a large difference between WA and EA. The less they know, the more they think the two are different. And the converse is also true. Indeed, it is not so much WA vs EA, but 31+ dialects that we've had. But standard EA and WA are almost the same language with rather minor grammatical and word usage (vocabulary differences). The sound shifts are also interesting, and both have experienced them since antiquity, but WA sound shifts have become more pronounced over the last 300+ years as a result of greater interaction with Western European languages. Սէրուժ (talk) 09:02, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I do use HLNB, but a missing word is not yet a guarantee of it being an Eastern-Armenianism. The dictionary could simply be incomplete. The best way to go is searching for a word in a Western Armenian corpus, which does not yet exist. --Vahag (talk) 14:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
FYI -- Just released: Հայերէն Աշխարհաբար Լեզուի Լիակատար Բառարան, 1954-57, Հալէպ։ It's comprehensive in that it claims to contain the full vocabulary of both Eastern and Western Armenian. This is my last resort dictionary when I cannot find the word I'm looking for even in Մալխասեանց. Սէրուժ (talk) 10:01, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Very interesting dictionary, thank you. Western Armenian dictionaries printed in diaspora are generally unavailable in Armenia (except Kuyumjian). Nayiri is our only access to them. --Vahag (talk) 13:39, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I've got a good one[edit]

(I was going to try to say that in Armenian, but I couldn't figure out how to parse "a good one." Mek lav...Lav mek...Mi lav mek... Armenian has too many words for "one" lol) Anyway, I can never remember when nominatives are really accusatives and datives are really genitives, so I'll just ask you without trying to translate: "The guy whose sister you kissed when you were drunk is here and he doesn't look like he wants to play cards." — [Ric Laurent] — 19:39, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

"I've got a good one" is an untranslatable English folklore :) "Տղեն, ում քրոջը պաչեցիր խմած ժամանակ, ստեղ ա ու պատրաստվում ա ոտդ ոռիցդ պոկի։" I couldn't think of an exact idiomatic translation for the playing cards part. The one I gave you literally says "intents to rip off your leg from your ass". --Vahag (talk) 19:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha I guess Armenians don't much use that sort of indirect but evident phrasing? I'll probably do that a lot anyway, because it's fun... lol — [Ric Laurent] — 20:08, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Translating idioms is the hardest part for me because I am not familiar with the rich phraseology of my language. It is shameful. --Vahag (talk) 20:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I think part of what adds to it is that sometimes English uses stuff that looks idiomatic but it's really just kind of unclear. Like, I think the playing card things might be a relatively common way of saying what I did, but only because card playing is so common. I could just as easily have said "and he doesn't look like he wants to shake your hand" or "and he doesn't look like he wants to invite you over to meet the family." Maybe linguists have a name for the kind of sentence I did, but knowing what that name is would do us no good lol. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:16, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Oh, the end of the sentence reminds me. Կարող լինել, is the supporting verb subjunctive, infinitive, either/or depending on circumstance? — [Ric Laurent] — 20:12, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Normatively it supports the infinite: կարող ես ուտել (karoł es utel, you can eat). Colloquially it supports the subjunctive: կարող ես ուտես (karoł es utes, you can eat). This is very common and used even by educated speakers who do not know it's sub-standard. --Vahag (talk) 20:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Armenian is surprisingly challenging lol... Most languages I know that have a subjunctive use it for that. I was just crying to my friend about wanting Jasmine Dum-Tragut's grammar but not wanting to spend so much money on it. Studying awesome languages is expensive. But I do really need to get that. If I read it I could waste a lot less of your time and ask you more important stuff :D — [Ric Laurent] — 20:30, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I've read 66 pages of Dum-Tragut now and it is full of errors. Be careful! There is another Western grammar, Kozintseva, Modern Eastern Armenian. It is available on pirate websites and looks more professional. --Vahag (talk) 20:34, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I actually already have a PDF of Dum-Tragut, but I'm a purist about books lol. I like being able to flip through, put in bookmarks, highlight shit. I know you can do a lot of that stuff with PDFs now, but it's still hollow. Hard to follow. But I did add Kozintseva to my list of stuff to acquire. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:16, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones/av[edit]

This redlinked cat has a good two dozen entries in it that might need looking over. Thought I'd inform you, since I don't know who else would have Avar resources. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:36, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

It's empty now. Different editors use different transliteration schemes. --Vahag (talk) 19:50, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Thankeesah! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:53, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Sure. The only thing left is to clean up gargantuan Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones/hy and Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones/ka caused by a shift in transliteration scheme. A bot should simply remove all transliterations for hy and ka.--Vahag (talk) 19:55, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Все части речи для весь[edit]

Привет, Вааг, приглашаю тебя поучаствовать в обсуждении Wiktionary:Requests_for_cleanup#весь. Если есть мнения или дополнительная информация, пожалуйста сообщи. CC: Стив Смит. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:04, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


You seem to have inadvertently messed up the entry. I restored it to the last good point AFAICT. I tried not to remove anything good that you added (I left the hu translation), but you might want to check. DCDuring TALK 20:55, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Conrad's tool is misbehaving. --Vahag (talk) 07:10, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to take that out of context and giggle incessantly, like a Japanese schoolgirl. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:58, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
I knew you'd interpret it that way, pervert :) --Vahag (talk) 16:00, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm so predictable you could write my responses yourself :D — [Ric Laurent] — 14:08, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Searching for template-generated content[edit]

[1] - I tried it and it doesn't work. What do I have to enable for it to work? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Go to "Beta Features" in your Preferences and enable "New search". --Vahag (talk) 14:31, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
It works! Thanks. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:44, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
It can even find content created few seconds ago. --Vahag (talk) 15:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

fun is evil[edit]

You know the rules, Vahagn: no fun allowed ever. --Æ&Œ (talk) 06:07, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

No, Pilcrow. It's not allowed to you. I have an official license to have fun. I'm like the 007 of trickstery. --Vahag (talk) 16:10, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Bah, you only got it because you are Armenian. If you were a straight white man, they would permablock you. Damn liberal elites are ruining Geektionary. --Æ&Œ (talk) 20:14, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Liberal elites ruin everything. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Guys, stop watching Fox News. --Vahag (talk) 22:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
But if I watch msnbc they'll just call me a racist misogynist homophobe bigot all day and I just can't deal with that. :'( Besides I have a crush on like half the hosts at Fox. — [Ric Laurent] — 03:10, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Mmm-hmmmm. Stossel's porn mustache is sexy. --Vahag (talk) 13:22, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
That thing probably controls him. I've actually got one of his books lol.
I think my favorite is that adorable libertarian munchkin Greg Gutfeld. Humor is arousing. — [Ric Laurent] — 16:16, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


I've hijacked the context label "post-Classical" and made it available to Ancient Greek as well as Old Armenian......and those other languages too. I'm pretty sure it should now treat Old Armenian uses identically to how it did before. I apologize if this causes you any problems. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:16, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I originally had it as language agnostic too, but then I changed my mind. I don't remember why. The change is fine by me. --Vahag (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Some random questions[edit]

Hi Vahag, does Armenian differentiate between a normal g and a palatalized one ([gʲ])? I'm just curious to know where does the յ (y) in դարգյահ (dargyah) come from, درگاه is pronounced [dæɾgɒːh], and it has another form (درگه) pronounced [dæɾgʲæh], so maybe դարգյահ (dargyah) form is from the latter. BTW, is the second a in sparapet an inner Armenian development? Also, is d > r a regular sound change here (I guess I've seen d > r change in several other loanwords in Armenian)? Just want to make sure if this (saying that սպարապետ is from spādpat) is ok. --Z 07:42, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Z. Thanks for the interesting questions. Old Armenian and the dialects of Ararat Plain and Constantinople on which two varieties of modern literary Armenian are based do not have palatalized consonants, but the dialects of Karabakh, Agulis, Van, Kharberd and Maragha do have them. [dæɾgʲæh] fits perfectly for դարգյահ (dargyah). Other cases with a -յ- (-y-) in Persian-borrowed terms are գյազար (gyazar) vs گزر (gazar), քյալամ (kʿyalam) vs کلم (kalam), դազգյահ (dazgyah) vs some by-form of دستگاه (dastgâh). I assume in all cases -յ- (-y-) reflects Persian palatalization.
Jahukyan reconstructs Iranian *spāδ(a)pet for սպարապետ (sparapet), which means it is possible the second -a- is an inner-Armenian development (I think smart people call this “analogical leveling”) — սպար (spar) is “Armenian”, պետ (pet) is “Armenian” and Armenian words should be connected with the interfix -ա- (-a-). d > r is not regular but δ > r is. As far as I know, Parthian contrasted plosive b, d, g with fricative β, δ, γ. I don't know if there is difference in orthography, but in transcription the difference should be indicated. Note how Boyce 1977, page 22, transcribes Parthian ʿspʾd as [ispāδ]. Périkhanian quotes attested Inscriptional Parthian spʾdpty, which should be transcribed with a -δ- to accommodate Armenian. Or even better, it should not be transcribed without a serious modern source. Even Périkhanian does not venture reconstruction, she simply says “cf. Parthian spʾdpty”. She doesn't even claim սպարապետ (sparapet) is from that specific attested spelling.
The determination of which Iranian language and in which period yielded a given Armenian word is a very difficult and ongoing task. There are different periods of Parthian, early and late Middle Persian, Old Median, Périkhanian's "Middle Median", some Old Persian and even some Eastern Iranian elements of unknown origin, perhaps Scythian or "Parnian". I suggest we tread very carefully and like Jahukyan get away with general statements such as "an Iranian borrowing, compare Parthian this, Middle Persian that..." unless we have some modern source claiming an exact origin. --Vahag (talk) 19:54, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your explanation, the -յ- (-y-) case was interesting. You are quite right that we should not transcribe that word (yes post-vocalic OIr. /d/ yields Parth. /δ/, there are evidences that /d/ and /δ/ merged into one sound [/d/ or /δ/] later; also those voiceless stops became voiced, these changes happened separately, so it's quite hard to transcribe such Parth. word exactly). --Z 09:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

locusta etymology[edit]

That's really excellent work; thank you very much for it. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:19, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Sure, no problem. I have good sources. --Vahag (talk) 00:37, 18 January 2014 (UTC)


Կարող եք մասնակցել այս քվեարկությանը: --Vadgt (talk) 19:07, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Module talk:columns[edit]

Do you have any input here, since you're the one that requested the feature? DTLHS (talk) 19:35, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


Thanks for the helpful feedback in your edit summary on Բարաք. I still think that it shouldn't be listed as being "from English", even if the direct source is an individual from an English-speaking country, simply because it's not an English name. Imagine if the next US President was named Gagik, and that this caused a spike in the name's popularity in, I don't know, Japan. Should the Japanese spelling be categorised in "Japanese given names from English"? I would think "from Armenian" would be more appropriate. -- Perey (talk) 12:25, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

I have removed "from English" but did not replace it with "from Hebrew" because I'm not sure the name is ultimately from Hebrew and not Arabic. The etymology still says "from English", because we certainly learned about the name and transliterated it into Armenian from English, not its Semitic source. PS I like the idea of president Gagik. Kim Kardashian could then be his vice-president. --Vahag (talk) 15:49, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Regarding shahanshah, شاهنشاه and شاهان‌شاه[edit]

  1. My name is not Kenneth, as in the history of شاهان‌شاه.
  2. What makes you determine that shahanshah is from شاهنشاه instead of شاهان‌شاه?
  3. If شاهنشاه is a short form of شاهان‌شاه, why isn't the information put on شاهان‌شاه instead?

--kc_kennylau (talk) 11:54, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

  1. I don't like short names. You're Kenneth from now on.
  2. OED says from šāhanšāh, not šāhānšāh.
  3. The information is put at the most common spelling created first, which is شاهنشاه. --Vahag (talk) 12:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
  1. I am never Kenneth.
  2. I cannot find the respective entry from OED.
  3. How do you know which is more common?
--kc_kennylau (talk) 12:07, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
  1. Kenneth, Kenneth, Kenneth.
  2. OED is Oxford English Dictionary.
  3. I compare 463,000 Google hits to 6,490 hits. Search with quote marks. --Vahag (talk) 12:17, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Nishanyan Template[edit]

There is a discussion on your Nishanyan Template at Wikipedia. May you can explain your decision for making this template to use it as a reliable source. --2A02:908:E621:8BE0:F8A4:4828:6C73:A598 22:25, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Этимология прилагательного ցամաք[edit]

Привет, Вааг! Я заметил, что в статье о ցամաք есть ссылки, которые говорят о заимствовании из сирийского языка. Сегодня я встретил это прилагательное (хоть и в необычной транслитерации) в словаре Уленбека (1898), где оно связывается (точное выражение: «Man vergleicht [...]») с санскритским словом क्षाम (kṣāmá), сожжённый. Среди источников есть такой, который упоминает возможное индоевропейское происхождение (родство с क्षाम ), хоть и с предостережением, но как возможный вариант? (К сожалению я не могу читать на армянском.) The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 13:15, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Привет, Богорм! Когда писал этимологию ցամաք (cʿamakʿ), источником имел только Ачаряна. Я сейчас дополнил и расширил этимологию на основании новых работ. Сравненние с санскритским क्षाम (kṣāmá, versengt, ausgedörrt) идёт с Bugge 1889 и принято в Pokorny 1959 и J̌ahukyan 1987, 2010. Hübschmann 1897 считает сравнение "unsicher", а Мартиросян вовсе не принимает и предпочитает родство с क्षम् (kṣám-, земля). --Vahag (talk) 18:03, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Спасибо. Еще один вопрос в связи с другой этимологией. В том же словаре в этимологии санскр. चन्द् (cand-) указано армянское слово с транслитерацией šand и значением Blitz (молния). Я нашел շանթ с тем же значением, но у него -թ . Есть армянское или древнеармянское слово *շանդ или это опечатка и շանթ искомое слово? Самое интересное, что в словаре дано еще два значения армянского родственного слова: искра (Funke) и накаленное железо (glühender Eisen), поэтому я предположил, что есть другое слово (кроме շանթ). The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 19:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
շանթ (šantʿ) искомое слово. У него есть вариант շանդ (šand). На днях напишу этимологию—у Мартиросяна есть большое обсуждение на эту тему. --Vahag (talk) 16:24, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Было сложно, но я это сделал. Смотри обзор этимологий в շանթ (šantʿ). В твоем словаре отражена гипотеза Бугге. Ссылке в списке литературы. --Vahag (talk) 20:31, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you![edit]

Thanks so much for your edits! I know it's a lot of work, so thank you for putting up with me. :) Arax (talk) 06:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

No, thank you. You're doing the part I hate the most—translating from Armenian into English. Adding pronunciation, inflection and etymology is fun. Keep up the good work. By the way, are you translating Ananyan now? --Vahag (talk) 07:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Glad to hear we're each doing the part we like best! :) Who's Ananyan? I translate mostly (or only) literature. Arax (talk) 05:41, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Vakhtang Ananyan, the writer. I usually find the words you add in his work when I search the Eastern Armenian corpus. I'm asking, because if you're translating a literary work you could add quotations from it. See for example շահնշահ, մուճակ, պաղպաղակ. Quotations are very useful. --Vahag (talk) 15:05, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Ah, I see. I don't usually get the words from the works I'm translating; I get them from works I'm reading. :) I could add quotations if it helps the meaning of the word. I've added "collocations" where relevant. Arax (talk) 09:47, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Repeating content[edit]

Hi Vahagn,

I realised you deleted my etymology on абажур. I understand that most of this information is contained elsewhere on wiktionary, but the information compiled in that etymology was taken from at least 5 different sources (including the information on cognates which didn't exist anywhere else). It took me some time to find it all. Anyway I have deleted the information about proto languages (I suggest that the Latin etymology is adjusted to include this information) but restored the link to the Russian article журнал and cognates.

Thanks,--Itsacatfish (talk) 19:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Czech abažúr and Polish abażur are not cognates of Russian абажур (abažur) as we understand "cognates" on Wiktionary. Cognates are inherited from the same proto-language, e.g. Russian брат (brat) and Czech bratr. Abažúr and abażur are no more relevant to the Russian page than Georgian აბაჟური (abažuri). I am going to move them to the list of descendants of French abat-jour.
I am also going to remove your links to beatan and журнал (žurnal). This is not Russian Wiktionary. The etymology of the French word should be treated on the French page, not its Russian descendant. Журнал (Žurnal) can be listed as a Related term.
If you have etymological information that is not anywhere on Wiktionary, you need to find place it at the correct page. --Vahag (talk) 20:17, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for clearing all that up! That was a very helpful comment actually, even if you seem rather annoyed with me :) --Itsacatfish (talk) 20:31, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
I am not annoyed. It's just I've sworn to fight duplication till my last breath.
Your contributions are of high quality but there are some formatting errors. Keep an eye on your watchlist while I fix some of them. --Vahag (talk) 20:35, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


Hi Vahagn, since it seems you know how to/have permission to move articles, please could you move my article oбаим to обаим (my entry is written with an English "o"!) Thanks, --Itsacatfish (talk) 17:33, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I just did. You can probably do it too. To the left of the search box there is a downward facing triangle. The "Move" command is there. --Vahag (talk) 17:40, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Your opinion on PIE *tele[edit]

User_talk:Hirabutor#Appendix:Proto-Indo-European.2Ftele - Hirabutor (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2014 (UTC)


I split the two meanings because they are rather distinct, and it's not really clear how they could be unified under one root. Other sources I found (Philippa 2009, De Vaan 2008) said similar things. —CodeCat 18:32, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the splitting. Pokorny splits the meanings too, but lists sūtīt (to send) and sių̃sti (to send) under the meaning “to go”, which makes sense. --Vahag (talk) 18:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

pronunciation of ոյ[edit]

Hi Vahagn, As far as I know, in traditional Armenian orthography, ոյ is pronounced "uy" when it occurs between two consonants -- e.g. լոյս (looys), բոյս (booys), etc. Can you educate me on what the reason for transliterating լոյս as loys here? thanks. Սէրուժ (talk) 09:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Serouj. We use the Hübschmann-Meillet-Benveniste transliteration system which is based on the pronunciation of Old Armenian (Grabar). լոյս (loys) was pronounced /lojs/ and that is reflected in the transliteration scheme. --Vahag (talk) 09:49, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Right, my question is that is it true that in Grabar it's pronounced /lojs/ and not "lujs"? Grabar is literary language -- we know today that լոյս is pronounced /lujs/ (in Eastern and Western Armenian) and this has been the case for quite some time, so if (at all) լոյս was pronounced /lojs/ when was this, and at what time did it change to /lujs/? (Frankly, it's the first time I'm hearing that լոյս was pronounced /lojs/ in early times.) Սէրուժ (talk)
In the 5th century Grabar was pronounced as it was written. Mesrop's alphabet was very precise. So արքայ (arkʿay) was pronounced like /arkʰaj/ and յարութիւն (yarutʿiwn) something like /jarutʰiwn/. I have uploaded an extract from Godel's book on the diphthong ոյ (oy) here. Old Armenian ոյ (oy) was a diphthong or quasi-diphthong pronounced as /oj/ or /oi̯/ in the Classical period. It is inherited from Proto-Armenian *ou and that from Proto-Indo-European *ew and *ow. So PIE *lewkos > Old Armenian լոյս (loys). I don't know when exactly after the 5th century its pronunciation turned to /uj/.
In any case, as opposed to transcription, transliteration is based on the spelling, not actual pronunciation. It is a mechanical letter-by-letter substitution process. It doesn't matter that in modern Armenian դեղաբոյս (dełaboys) is pronounced [dɛʁɑˈbujs]. So even in modern Armenian it needs to be transliterated as dełaboys.
I don't give pronunciations for Old Armenian as there are many unclear issues (as you note, it is a dead, literary language). For modern Armenian the pronunciation is given in a separate section using IPA. --Vahag (talk) 11:24, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Got it. Thanks for taking the time to explain the reasoning Vahagn. Սէրուժ (talk) 19:41, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Sure, no problem. --Vahag (talk) 19:42, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Difference in word kind[edit]


I wondered whether you could tell me what the difference is between слышимый and слышный. Is it that the latter is a passive word and the latter 'merely' an adjective? I have no idea how to call these things. Thanks 10:31, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there is a nuance in meaning. The difference is etymological—слышимый is a passive participle, слышный is an adjective. --Vahag (talk) 10:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, that is what I meant! 15:00, 24 April 2014 (UTC)


....has some documentation and new features which might ever so slightly erode at the ever-present despair. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:05, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Слогоделение, простановка знака ударения в русском[edit]

Привет, Вааг,

Ты знаешь что-нибудь о русском слогоделении и постановке знаков ударения (место) в МФА (IPA)? Если что-нибудь знаешь, подскажи, пожалуйста в Module_talk:ru-pron/testcases#Exceptions identified. Стив, приглашаю и тебя тоже к обсуждению. Что вы думаете о том, как сделан украинский модуль? Например в слове "виногра́д" ударение поставлено вот так /ʋenɔɦrˈɑd/. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:53, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Привет, Анатолий. К сожалению ничего не знаю о русском слогоделении. /ʋenɔɦrˈɑd/ наверняка неправильно. Я заставил Штамбука изменить это поведение в Module:hy-pronunciation. Там модуль находит первое согласное перед ударным гласным и ставит ударение перед ним. --Vahag (talk) 07:57, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Спасибо, Вааг. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:16, 30 May 2014 (UTC) database[edit]

Sorry, nobody said that before. --Hirabutor (talk) 22:16, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, a certain sexy Armenian said exactly that before. --Vahag (talk) 22:20, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry again, I really forgot it :) --Hirabutor (talk) 22:28, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
I forgive you. --Vahag (talk) 22:32, 14 June 2014 (UTC)


Can you review my edits? I got three failing test cases to pass, but I am not sure whether there are cases in which these changes might have broken something. Keφr 09:38, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

The first failing tests are fixed for good, thank you, but the problem with the last one is not just sˈt → ˈst. It is that #CˈCV- should be #ˈCCV-. Likewise #CCˈCV- → #ˈCCCV-, where # means word-initial, C is consonant and V is vowel.
Thanks for taking interest. Would you be willing to work with me on expanding the module? Nothing hard like Module:ru-pron. --Vahag (talk) 10:16, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Changed it so that the stress mark is moved before an arbitrary number of initial consonants. Keφr 10:26, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, it is fixed. Thanks! --Vahag (talk) 10:48, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

New dictionaries[edit]

Հայերեն Ստուգաբանական Բառարան. Enjoy :) Սէրուժ (talk) 06:17, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! I edited our template to link to Nayiri. --Vahag (talk) 10:57, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

A vocabulary of words used in modern Armenian but not found in the ancient Armenian lexicons. Small little dictionary. As far as I know, it's the first dictionary in աշխարհաբար. Interesting, at least from a historical perspective. Սէրուժ (talk) 03:02, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Cool. I updated Template:R:hy:Riggs. But it is by no means the first ashkharabar dictionary. For example, Rivola 1633 and the Բառգիրք Յաշխարհաբառէ ի Գրաբառն part of HHB 1769 also are ashkharabar. The Դուռն Քերականութան Աշխարհաբառ Լեզեւին Հայոց 1727 by Մխիթար Սեբաստացի has an ashkharabar vocabulary as well. --Vahag (talk) 07:12, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Հայոց Լեզվի Դարձվածաբանական Բառարան. Not sure if you are using this one yet Vahagn, but I think you might in the future. Սէրուժ (talk) 19:57, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm not doing idioms on Wiktionary yet, because translating them into English is a pain in the ass. But the dictionary is very popular. I recall folk asking for it on Մայրենի լեզվի դասեր many times.
Please do Amatuni 1912 next :) --Vahag (talk) 07:39, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
OK Vahag, I made a note of your request. It will be released later this month. What do you think of the 7-volume Հայոց Լեզվի Բարբառային Բառարան, Հրաչյա Աճառյանի Անվան Լեզվի Ինստիտուտ (2001-2012)? Which would you like to have first? Սէրուժ (talk) 08:12, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
The 7-volume dialectological dictionary was supposed to be a monumental embodiment of all Armenian dialectological material collected by the Academy linguists since 1966. But due to Artem Sargsyan's sloppy editing we have a dumbed down, unprofessional work, which is quite important because of its unparalleled scope but is insufficient from the academic standpoint. Also, I have all of it in print, unlike Amatuni, so do Amatuni first :) --Vahag (talk) 08:59, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
OK, will do. Yes, especially the last volume is extremely sloppy. There are whole chunks of works that are even misordered / misplaced in the dictionary (especially the last volume). There are words several pages off. Nonetheless, it's somewhat interesting. Another downside is that it has very inconsistent spelling, which means that a spell-checker is needed (along with fully digitized headwords). Սէրուժ (talk) 15:48, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Feel free to make a list of idioms so you could look at them later. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 08:24, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Հայոց Բառ ու Բան, Սահակ վարդապետ Ամատունի։ Տպարան Մայր Աթոռոյ ս. Էջմիածնի, Վաղարշապատ, 1912։ As promised. Enjoy. Սէրուժ (talk) 02:24, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I just went through it: a magnificent work, thank you.
I have another idea for you. The Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia has been scanned with high quality. Moreover, the publisher has released it under the Creative Commons BY-SA 3.0. You can add it to Nayiri. --Vahag (talk) 14:32, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Good idea. It's on my to-do list but I considered it a low priority. I'll try to release it during the 2nd half of next year... Thanks for the suggestion. Սէրուժ (talk) 02:38, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Միջին Հայերենի Բառարան, Ռուբեն Սերոբի Ղազարյան եւ Հենրիկ Միսակի Ավետիսյան։ Երեւանի Պետական Համալսարանի Հրատարակչություն, Երեւան, 2009։ I think this is very interesting and of great value. I wasn't too fond of the printing, even though the book was brand new. If you have a copy of this book, can you please check the quality -- in particular pay attention to the letters բ, զ, գ and դ։ Are they difficult to read in your versions? For mine, a few lines in those letters repeatedly are too thin and often missing. I think they chose a bad font. Please let me know. I might need to acquire another copy of it. Thanks. Սէրուժ (talk) 02:36, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

As an example, please check page 15. Ադովնայութիւն... Սէրուժ (talk) 02:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
By virtue of being the only published dictionary of Middle Armenian it is indeed very valuable and actively used in in Wiktionary (BTW, Josef Karst's unpublished dictionary is currently being edited). However, in quality and scale it does not come close to what NHB is for Old Armenian. Read this scathing review.
I noticed the problem with բ, զ, գ and դ long ago, it's not your copy. This is very annoying. Sometimes I have to check the spelling in the first edition (which is 99.99% identical with the second edition). --Vahag (talk) 08:24, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the details. I have multiple scans of 2 different copies of the first edition (printing isn't great, but the font I remember was legible). So this gives me good reason to add those to the site, possibly 2nd part of next year. I can't stand having a dictionary on the site that has illegible pages... And it's outright shameful that we are experiencing quality problems in a book printed in 2009! (I don't want to get in to the problems I'm having with the 7-volume Բառբարային բառարան... I seemed to have a copy of a copy of the first volume and it was being peddled as an original.) Սէրուժ (talk) 08:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm glad you're paying close attention to quality. Nayiri's scans are impeccable.
I know your bookseller Garik. He sometimes sneakily peddles photocopies. As for the quality of books, I think they have gone down since 1991. I hate the Soviet Empire, but they knew how to print a book. --Vahag (talk) 09:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Հայոց Լեզվի Բարբառային Բառարան, Հրաչյա Աճառյանի Անվան Լեզվի Ինստիտուտ։ ՀՀ Գիտությունների Ազգային Ակադեմիա, Երեւան, 2001-2012։ Սէրուժ (talk) 06:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

All of the pages are legible, but I suspect I still have used copies for volumes 2, 4, and 6. They're not too bad though. Volume 1 was pretty bad, but I did manage to find an original. A lot of times you never know the quality until after you scan it (or you forget to look when buying :) ). Սէրուժ (talk) 06:03, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
You're on fire, Serouj :) I linked our template to Nayiri.
I don't think you were given copies. I compared this page with my print volume and the quality is the same. Its the relatively low quality of the print. I have printed small brochures in Yerevan before and some of them looked just like that. --Vahag (talk) 09:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for checking with your copies, especially on that particular page. I was wondering about that jumbled nonsense characters; that's not an issue of print quality, per se, but of the encoding or fonts on the digital copy. I'm certain volume 2 that I have is not an original, because after I found an original copy at the local library here to replace the bad pages I found in my copy, I realized that the bad pages were the result of bad scanning. For example, have a look at page 212 of volume 2. here is what an original copy should look like. And here is what a scanned-then-printed copy would look like (notice the bad scan on the left column under լեզուն առնվել). Also, the original's printing is far more crisp; to see this, you can switch between the two scans quickly by hitting the number 1 or 4 key on your keyboard, respectively. BTW, had you noticed this feature of switching between scans? I need to do a better job of documenting some of these otherwise hidden features. Սէրուժ (talk) 17:59, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I confirm, copy (4) is much better and looks exactly like my print copy. The hieroglyphs on page 191 are "îÎȲÜæÆ", which is ՏԿԼԱՆՋԻ (TKLANJ̌I) in w:ARMSCII. I didn't know I could switch between the scan versions with a keypad, but honestly I almost never switch scans.
You once said it wouldn't be too hard linking to a specific page in a dictionary by feeding the browser a URL with the page number in it (I mean the actual print page, not Nayiri's internal one). Can this be done? This is important for ՀԱԲ, where the referenced page may be far from the page on which the headword first appears. Obviously, the URL will have to take in also the volume number. --Vahag (talk) 20:10, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Oh, thanks for deciphering the hieroglyphics :) I will retouch that page and update it online. There are also hieroglyphs on pages 218 and 236; have you deciphered those, too? Also, there are print issues on page 384 and 385. Can you let me know what the missing characters are in your copy? I will retouch these too and update those pages. BTW, how does your volume 6 print quality look like compared to what's now online? Thanks a lot... Սէրուժ (talk) 20:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
The one on page 218 should be ՏՈՆԻÎ > ՏՈՆԻԿ; and on page 236 Ôñµ > Ղրբ. I have uploaded pages 384 and 385 here. My volume 6 looks exactly like yours, apart from those two pages. --Vahag (talk) 21:08, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for the data... All 5 pages from volume 6 noted above have been fixed. Սէրուժ (talk) 02:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Funny I was thinking about that today, especially with ՀԱԲ and now the 7-volume ՀԼԲԲ. Yes, it's relatively easy to do. I'll try to implement that in the next few days; there will be two new parameters in the URL, probably: "printPage" and "volume" Սէրուժ (talk) 20:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Hi Vahagn, I just added support for the two new parameters "printPage" and "volume" for use on Imaged Dictionaries. "volume" is optional and will default to 1 if not specified. For "printPage", in addition to supporting decimal numbers ([0-9]+) you can also specify Roman Numerals (i, ii, ... xi, ...) and Armenian Numerals (Ա, Բ, ... ԻԱ, ...) as needed depending on the dictionary. For example:
The 201st page of the 3rd volume of Մալխասեանց: printPage=201&volume=3
The ԺԹ (19th) page of the 1st volume of Մալխասեանց: printPage=ԺԹ&volume=1.
The XVI (16th) page of the 1st volume of ՆՀԲ: printPage=xvi&volume=1.
The Դ (4th) page of Գաւառական Բառարան: printPage=Դ (note that volume is omitted).
The XVIII page of Գաւառական Բառարան: printPage=xviii (note that a given dictionary may have more than one -- i.e. two or three -- types of page numberings).
The 25th page of Գաւառական Բառարան: printPage=25 Սէրուժ (talk) 23:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for adding the functionality. I have edited Template:R:xcl:HAB to support direct page-linking. --Vahag (talk) 09:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Dictionnaire Arménien-Français (1926). Probably the best Armenian-French dictionary printed as yet. You might likely find it useful. Սէրուժ (talk) 10:22, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, did not know such a dictionary existed. With so many dictionaries now on Nayiri, the feature of somehow highlighting the ones containing the searched headword becomes more pressing. --Vahag (talk) 14:51, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree about the need for that feature. Hopefully that will be available sometime next year. Still have about 30 important dictionaries to add to the site :) .Սէրուժ (talk) 00:01, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Dictionnaire français-arménien (Բառարան ֆրանսերէնէ-Հայերէն). Among the best French-Armenian dictionaries. This was originally published in 1896. The 1930 edition "modernized" it by removing some entries (as I understood it in the introduction) many years after the death of the author. I think very useful, along with Lusignan's French-Armenian dictionary (to be released next week) and Manuel Kajuni's 2-volume scientific encyclopedic dictionary (to be released next year). Let me know if these are useful to you. Best wishes, Սէրուժ (talk) 07:07, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, they are useful for tracking neologisms. By the way, I have discovered Kajuni digitized by Harvard here. I managed to download it in good quality and make two pdf volumes ~900 MB each. Let me know if you need it. --Vahag (talk) 08:47, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Vahag, yes, that would be nice to get Kajuni. Did you lose any image quality (e.g. JPEG compression) while downloading / converting to PDF? That would be good to have. I also plan to photo-scan that dictionary (a long & arduous process -- which by the way I already did for the Chakhchakian dictionary that will also be released next year). In any case, it's good to have a second copy and something I can work with now, and the Harvard scan looks pretty good. Let me know how I can obtain it from you. Սէրուժ (talk) 08:58, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I uploaded the files to my Google Drive and shared the link with you via email. I did not lose quality in downloading .jpg files. I then used Adobe Acrobat XI's default conversion settings, which, I think, involves some compression. I did not keep the .jpg files. I have also uploaded a .djvu version created by me using FineReader. --Vahag (talk) 10:50, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Հայ-Ռուսերեն Բառարան, Հրաչյա Աճառյանի Անվան Լեզվի Ինստիտուտ։ Հայկական ՍՍՀ Գիտությունների Ակադեմիայի Հրատարակչություն, Երեւան, 1987։ Might be useful. Սէրուժ (talk) 12:29, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • May be not for Wiktionary purposes, but in real life in Armenia that dictionary is very important. We need to translate from Armenian into Russian all the time. Professionally I use the one you just posted and {{R:hy:Polytechnic}}. --Vahag (talk) 13:33, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Perfect. My goal is to be useful to people. So hopefully this will help you and others in Armenia professionally. Also, the second dictionary you mention is next on my list for ru-hy dictionaries. It will be released soon, too. Սէրուժ (talk) 17:14, 17 September 2014 (UTC)


Seruzh is on a mission to purify Wiktionary of its icky example sentences, but I don't want to completely disadvantage perverted linguistic nerds. My Armenian is getting rusty again, so I need your help translating this: "When you think about կլիր your heart is open to the Devil. Do not think about կլիր or you risk damning your soul to the fires of Hell." I'll use the same with կլիր replaced for պուց‎. — [Ric Laurent] — 16:48, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Bud, you know I love you, but your example sentences sound stilted in Armenian. We don't talk like that! I had to replace your examples with actual quotes from newest literature.
This one would be "Երբ մտածում ես կլրի մասին, սիրտդ բացվում է սատանայի համար։ Մի՛ մտածիր կլրի մասին, թե չէ հոգիդ կդատապարտես դժոխքի խարույկներին։" --Vahag (talk) 09:49, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Armenians could talk like that if they got silly! Why so serious? :) — [Ric Laurent] — 10:52, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
We're not as comfortable with our sexuality as you are. But we're getting there, be patient :) --Vahag (talk) 16:27, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
My soul weeps for those poor Armenians who don't recognize the beauty of sex lol. — [Ric Laurent] — 16:30, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Mine too. --Vahag (talk) 16:58, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Armenian italic[edit]

Do you want to start a discussion about this too? I would support it. —CodeCat 14:15, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

No, no discussion is necessary, as we have a consensus. All of the Armenian contributor on Wiktionary agree we should italicize Armenian. --Vahag (talk) 14:20, 12 July 2014 (UTC)


Where did you find "donkey cucumber"? خر also means "big", beside "donkey", so it makes sense, but I'm not sure about the "cucumber" part. --Z 14:46, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I'll add the references and discussion shortly. --Vahag (talk) 14:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
OK, I have added my sources, which were Horn and Vasmer. But then I found an extensive treatment in Doerfer, which I have uploaded here. My head hurts from reading so much German, so I have not incorporated Doerfer's material. Note also the Middle Persian forms in this dictionary. --Vahag (talk) 16:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)


Barev dzez Vahag duq revert eq arel im targmanutyunnery Ayl lezunerov, commentov: неформат . Karoxeq ognel haskanal vor dzevov e petq anel vorpisis неформат chlini ? indz karoxeq grel hetevyal (ggl qom) namakov aranc spaceri: alex man free shnorakalutyun —This unsigned comment was added by Surenix (talkcontribs).

Էս անգլերեն Վիքիբառարանն ա։ Ստեղ հայերենից թարգմանում են միայն անգլերեն։ Ֆորմատի հետ կապված՝ կարող եք կարդալ Ձեր էջին իմ դրած հղումները։ PS Խնդրում եմ գրել հայատառ։ --Vahag (talk) 11:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)


I have been using some of the images here [2] for the following page [3] but there are other characters that I need to locate. Perhaps they are not Old Persian. Would you have any idea where I could find them? Daytrivia (talk) 12:25, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Nope. I don't even remember uploading those Old Persian characters. You should use Unicode. --Vahag (talk) 13:05, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick reply. Daytrivia (talk) 03:30, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Привет, Вааг! Насчет клинописи я понял, что можно обойтись без картинок. Но мне любопытно, отображаются ли символы (𒁉𒅕𒌅) правильно у тебя или выглядят как пустые серые квадратики (как у меня). The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 20:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Привет, Богорм! У меня клинопись отображается шрифтом Akkadian, когда к нему автоматически применяется код sc=Xsux шаблоном {{m}}. Без sc=Xsux я тоже вижу ненавистные квадратики. --Vahag (talk) 20:36, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Спасибо за ссылку. Я попробую чуть позже. А покамест ты бы поделился как выглядят первый и последний символы: более похожи на ассирийские варианты, которые отображаются на сайте Юникода (BI, TU) или на шумерские варианты знаков (B358ellst.png, B086ellst.png) из викисклада? The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 20:47, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Выглядят как на сайте Юникода. --Vahag (talk) 20:56, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Infinitive vs. first-person for Classical Armenian entries[edit]

HI Vahagn, out of curiosity, why do you keep the first person singular forms for verbs in Classical Armenian. Shouldn't we keep a standard of having infinitive forms for verbs? It seems some grabar dictionaries for some reason or other used first person singular forms of verbs (e.g. ունիմ) as headwords, but in modern times dictionaries are written with the infinitive form for headwords. Furthermore, for ունիմ you have translated as "to have; to take, to hold, to possess, to occupy, to enjoy" but in reality it is "I have; I take, I hold, I possess, I occupy, I enjoy". Indeed, when you look at ՆՀԲ you see that the latin preserves the first person singular verb form -- e.g. habeo, detineo, obtineo -- and does not write the infinitive form -- habere, detinere, obtinere, etc. So, I think we must either change the headwords to be infinitive, or we must keep the first person singular, but in the definition we must state the first person translation. Սէրուժ (talk) 18:24, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello, Serouj. The infinitive is not the universal lemma (citation) form for verbs. Notably, Ancient Greek and Latin use the first-person singular present indicative even though they have infinitives; see Wiktionary:Lemmas#Verbs for more. That is why ՆՀԲ glosses ունիմ with Latin habeo, detineo, obtineo, Ancient Greek κατέχω, but with Armenian առնուլ (aṙnul), տիրել (tirel), առնել (aṙnel), տէր ըլլալ (tēr əllal) and Turkish almak, i.e. infinitives.
The standard citation form of Old Armenian is not the infinitive, because the infinitive does not distinguish between i-conjugation and e-conjugation verbs. Note առնում (aṙnum) : առնուլ (aṙnul), ածեմ (acem) : ածել (acel), աղամ (ałam) : աղալ (ałal), but ունիմ (unim) : ունել (unel). Ačaṙyan cheats and cites the verb as ունիլ (unil), but that is a post-classical form. All the best sources cite Old Armenian verbs in first-person singular present indicative, such as ՆՀԲ, ԱԲ, ՋԲ, Hübschmann, Martirosyan, Godel, Olsen, etc.
As for definitions, the practice varies. Most sources translate ունիմ (unim) as “to have, to hold”, others “I have, I hold”, still others “have, hold”. I decided to go with the first practice, because that is the most common; because that is what the best print Latin and Ancient Greek dictionaries do (the Wiktionary practice for Latin is promoted by one misguided user, it is not common); and because the lemma-form is sort of a container for all inflected forms of the word, it does not need to be translated literally.
I appreciate that this must be confusing for speakers of modern Armenian who are accustomed to the infinitive, but the alternatives are even more confusing. In the future we will have a Wiktionary:About Old Armenian page, which should explain these sorts of things. --Vahag (talk) 13:21, 7 September 2014 (UTC)