User talk:Vahagn Petrosyan

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Thanks for your help on this and other PIE entries. I just wanted discuss the reconstructions *gʷĺ̥h₂nos/*gʷl̥h₂-eno-. You are right that De Vaan, Beekes, and Martirosyan all propose *gʷl̥h₂eno-, though this would produce neither կաղին nor βᾰ́λᾰνος (but instead should give something like կաղան and βλᾱνος/βληνος). Fortson's Indo-European Language and Culture mentions that in AG Ŕ̥h₁/Ŕ̥h₂/Ŕ̥h₃ appear to give éRe/áRa/óRo respectively; though this theory is debated. This would appear to give the only correct result in this AG etymology, but we can stick with the official etymology if you think it is more appropriate.

Also, I apologize for repeatedly being incapable of typing Old Armenian. :)JohnC5 05:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Neither PIE *gʷĺ̥h₂nos nor *gʷl̥h₂-eno- would give Armenian կաղին ‎(kałin). The first would yield *կաղն ‎(*kałn), the second *կաղան ‎(*kałan). Clackson 1994 reconstructs the former and explains the insertion of -ի- ‎(-i-) by analogy. Martirosyan says he accepts Clackson's explanation but unlike Clackson reconstructs *gʷl̥h₂-eno-. I have written an email to Hrach, let's wait for his clarification. --Vahag (talk) 18:34, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Woah! I didn't know you knew him well enough to email him. That's very cool. Thanks for the help―the world of Armenian etymology is still rather foreign to me. —JohnC5 19:20, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
We're friends. We meet, talk, exchange emails. Sometimes I tell him about my small discoveries in Armenian linguistics. He mentions me in his upcoming article. --Vahag (talk) 19:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
You're so legit. I'm very impressed. May inquire as to the context and content of your article mention? —JohnC5 19:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Don't be so impressed, I'm not very important. Hrach is a very modest man, ready to engage anyone who is genuinely into linguistics. The upcoming article is an Armeno–Anatolica, a study of Anatolian loanwords in Armenian. I have helped him with minor suggestions in preparing the article, so he thanks me in a footnote :) My marginally more substantial contributions (etymological suggestions) he stores in his internal database, with my name. This constantly-growing database will serve as the foundation for a future comprehensive etymological dictionary of Armenian. --Vahag (talk) 20:34, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Martirosyan prefers the reconstruction *gʷl̥h₂-eno-, without going into details. In his opinion *gʷl̥h₂no- too would probably give Armenian *կաղան- ‎(*kałan-) because a laryngeal between a consonant and a resonant is probably vocalized in Armenian. So the mechanism of the analogical insertion of -ի- ‎(-i-) is not relevant.
I think we should mention both reconstructions. --Vahag (talk) 11:28, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sounds good to me! —JohnC5 10:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


I don't know enough to tell if this diff is legitimate, but it certainly set my alarm bells off. Could you take a look? Chuck Entz (talk) 14:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

It's one of the traditional explanations, one among 10 sourced ones in the Russian Wikipedia. Of course it's Hirubator's favourite one. --Vahag (talk) 15:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Could you provide the exact source for Vasmer please? Thanks. --Hirabutor (talk) 19:00, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
What do you mean by the exact source? The source is Vasmer, his opinion, properly referenced with a volume and page number. His exact wording is "Недостоверно ввиду монг. Baigal "Байкал"" = "doubtful [the traditional Turkic origin] in view of [the existence] of Mongol Baigal". --Vahag (talk) 19:22, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I mean the Mongolic etymologies. Would be nice to add them. --Hirabutor (talk) 01:06, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Vasmer does not give any. Among 10 sourced proposals listed in Russian Wikipedia, Nos. 2–5 and 9 argue for a native Buryat origin. I am only marginally interested in Altaic linguistics, so I have to decline reading those sources and entering the information into Wiktionary, sorry. --Vahag (talk) 14:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

suspect diff[edit]

This look right to you? diffקהת — 19:10, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Yep, the comparison belongs to Ačaṙean. --Vahag (talk) 19:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Ok, just wanted to make sure we weren't getting more fabricated nationalist weirdness :D — קהת — 15:01, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Simboyd has reformed. He is reliable now :) --Vahag (talk) 15:13, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

A favour - information about a surname[edit]

Hello, I had to contact someone with the surname 'Mnatzaganian' not too long ago. I was just wondering whether it is an Armenian name and also how it is pronounced (especially the first part - is it a silent 'M'?)? Thanks for any help. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 12:48, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

See Մնացականյան ‎(Mnacʿakanyan). It would be a cognate of Persian Mandani if you had such a surname. --Vahag (talk) 13:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you so much, that is amazing! :D I wan't expecting a link to Persian. Next time I talk to her, I will be able to say her name instead of avoiding names throughout the conversation. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 13:51, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
That happens to me all the time :D People avoiding my name, because they can't remember Vahagn. --Vahag (talk) 13:55, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

New dictionaries (2)[edit]

  • Մեր արմատները նոր լոյսի տակ (1995-1998) by Vartkes Ourishian. This is an etymological dictionary that tries to tie Armenian root words to Arabic origins. I'd be interested to see your and other linguists' opinion on this book. Սէրուժ (talk) 21:30, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
    It's really unscientific, Serouj. Sorry. It reminds me of Template:R:xcl:Hiwnk. But I'm glad you made that rare book online. --Vahag (talk) 09:32, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Apparent mistakes in (Old) Armenian templates[edit]

OK, after looking through the warnings I got in my remove-translit code and checking the templates, the following warnings appear to be legit:

Page 183 ալ: WARNING: Value 1=ալ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-adj|ալ}}
Page 581 անատոմիա: WARNING: Value 1=անատոմիայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|անատոմիայ}}
Page 1550 բարով: WARNING: Value 1=barօv has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-interj|barօv}}
Page 2442 դժոխք: WARNING: Value 1=դժոխք has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|դժոխք}}
Page 2723 երախտիք: WARNING: Value 1=երախտ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-noun-ո-ա-pl|երախտ}}
Page 4270 ծովաշուն: WARNING: Value 1=ծովաշներ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun|ծովաշներ}}
Page 4312 կաթսա: WARNING: Value 1=կաթսայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|կաթսայ}}
Page 4356 կամ: WARNING: Value 1=''o''-type instrumentals {{term|կամով|tr=kamov|lang=xcl}} and {{term|կամովք|tr=kamovkʿ|lang=xcl}} are also attested has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-noun-ի-ա|''o''-type instrumentals {{term|կամով|tr=kamov|lang=xcl}} and {{term|կամովք|tr=kamovkʿ|lang=xcl}} are also attested}}
Page 4431 կապվածություն: WARNING: Value 1=կապուածութիւն has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun|կապուածութիւն}}
Page 4667 կինո: WARNING: Value 1=կինոյ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|կինոյ}}
Page 4730 կոալա: WARNING: Value 1=կոալայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|կոալայ}}
Page 5128 հայտարարում: WARNING: Value 1=յայտարարում has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun|յայտարարում}}
Page 6486 մեքենա: WARNING: Value 1=մեքենայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|մեքենայ}}
Page 6497 մթություն: WARNING: Value 1=մթ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ություն|մթ}}
Page 6619 մնացական: WARNING: Value 1=մընացական has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-adj|մընացական}}
Page 6687 մոտոցիկլ: WARNING: Value 1=մոտոցիկլ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun|մոտոցիկլ}}
Page 6813 յոգուրտ: WARNING: Value 1=յո՛գուրտ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun|յո՛գուրտ|յոգուրտ}}
Page 7662 պարագա: WARNING: Value 1=պարագայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|պարագայ}}
Page 7810 պողոտա: WARNING: Value 1=պողոտայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|պողոտայ}}
Page 7961 ռադիո: WARNING: Value 1=ռադիոյ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|ռադիոյ}}
Page 9639 քիմիա: WARNING: Value 1=քիմիայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|քիմիայ}}
Page 534 առնեմ: WARNING: Value 3=առնել has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-verb||արարի|առնել}}
Page 896 բանեմ: WARNING: Value 3=բանել has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-verb||բանեցի|բանել}}
Page 950 բարով: WARNING: Value 1=barօv has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-interj|barօv}}
Page 1097 գարշեմ: WARNING: Value 1=garšеm has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-verb|garšеm|գարշեցի}}
Page 1238 գործեմ: WARNING: Value 3=գործել has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-verb||գործեցի|գործել}}
Page 1513 երախտիք: WARNING: Value 1=երախտ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-noun-ո-ա-pl|երախտ}}
Page 2440 կամ: WARNING: Value 1=''o''-type instrumentals {{term|կամով|tr=kamov|lang=xcl}} and {{term|կամովք|tr=kamovkʿ|lang=xcl}} are also attested has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-noun-ի-ա|''o''-type instrumentals {{term|կամով|tr=kamov|lang=xcl}} and {{term|կամովք|tr=kamovkʿ|lang=xcl}} are also attested}}
Page 3408 մնացական: WARNING: Value 1=մընացական has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-adj|մընացական}}
Page 4899 քառ: WARNING: Value 3=քառից has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-numeral||քառի|քառից|pg2=քառաց|pg3=քառեաց}}
Page 4945 քիմիա: WARNING: Value 1=քիմիայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|քիմիայ}}
Page 236 դժոխք: WARNING: Value 1=դժոխք has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|դժոխք}}

These are likely errors where you meant to put the Armenian in a different parameter, and you might want to fix them. Benwing (talk) 10:05, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm going through the list and fixing my errors. --Vahag (talk) 10:15, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Having missed Russian classes in high school...[edit]

Hi. I've noticed Starostin uses various abbreviations in this dictionary, like ПВК, ПЦ and ПАК. Now, I've managed to decipher some of it but I still don't know what the three I mentioned actually stand for. I especially need the meaning of ПАК for *did-. Since you speak Russian well, could you help me out in this? --Simboyd (talk) 13:43, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Here is the entry for *did- in Starostin. --Simboyd (talk) 13:44, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

  • ПВК is правосточнокавказский / Proto-Northeast-Caucasian, code cau-nec-pro,
  • ПЗК is празападнокавказский / Proto-Northwast-Caucasian, code cau-nwc-pro,
  • ПАК is праадыгейско-кабардинский / Proto-Circassian, code cau-cir-pro,
  • ПЦ is працезский / Proto-Tsez. We do not have a code for it.

See [1], [2], [3]. --Vahag (talk) 14:02, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. --Simboyd (talk) 14:06, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
It's OK. You ran away from Russian influence too quickly. Now your people speak neither Russian, nor good English :) --Vahag (talk) 14:08, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Why are you reconstructing Proto-Kartvelian when Klimov reconstructs only Proto-Georgian-Zan? Is it because the reconstruction is included in Fähnrich? I haven't read Fähnrich's introduction, does he claim that all his reconstructions are Proto-Kartvelian? --Vahag (talk) 14:17, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Fahnrich and Starostin reconstuct only Proto-Kartvelian. There are instances, however, when Fahnrich also reconstructs Proto-Georgian-Zan, but he puts it as a note in the end of each entry. --Simboyd (talk) 14:29, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Actually, scratch that, I just read in the introduction of Fahnrich-Sarjveladze, p. 25 that whenever there is no Svan cognate indicated, the reconstruction is for the Proto-Georgian-Zan stage. You should be able to read this on page 24, Fahnrich 2007, paragraph:
Oft fehlen Angaben, ob die betreffende rekonstruierte Grundform ge-meinkartwelisch oder georgisch-sanisch ist. Auf diese Angaben haben wir verzichtet, da es ohnehin klar ist, daß es sich um das georgisch-sanische chronologische Niveau handelt, wenn es nur georgische und mingrelische bzw. georgische und lasische oder georgische, mingrelische und lasische Lexik betrifft; d. h. wo die swanische Entsprechung fehlt, kann nur bis zum georgisch-sanischen Niveau rekonstruiert werden. Das gemeinkartwelische chronologische Niveau der Rekonstruktion liegt vor, wenn es sich um georgische und swanische bzw. um georgische, mingrelische, lasische und swanische oder nur um mingrelische, lasische und swanische Lexik handelt (Klimow 1964).
Nevertheless, Starostin still reconstructs Proto-Kartvelian. But this may simply be due to the fact that he didn't know/care about Proto-Georgian-Zan. --Simboyd (talk) 14:55, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Starostin does not even have a Proto-Georgian-Zan node in his tree. And he is generally keen on reconstructing long-range proto-forms with scant evidence. I think we should move the page to Proto-Georgian-Zan. Without Svan evidence we cannot reconstruct Proto-Kartvelian. The same is true for მგელი. --Vahag (talk) 15:45, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
I have also moved *ṗaṗ- and *ḳad- to PGZ. I've also made some changes in *ɣamort- for this matter. This is all due to the fact that I screwed up, as always. I now have ~200 entries to review and fix :D Thanks for bringing this up, I would have never realized this myself. --Simboyd (talk) 16:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing those. I still fix my Armenian edits made 7 years ago. --Vahag (talk) 16:15, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

بقراط as transliteration of Բագարատ[edit]

It's the Arabized form of the Greek Hippocrates (also used in New Persian). Are you sure about your edit? (or is it a joke as well? :D) --Z 21:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't joke about substantive issues :) Ačaṙyan gives Arabic بقراط Buqrāṭ as an Arabic transliteration of an Armenian king-name. I find the same in Justi, but transliterated as Baqrāṭ here: person No. 9 Baqrāṭ bin Ašūṭ baṭrīq, attested in Al-Baladhuri, Yaqut al-Hamawi, Ali ibn al-Athir, Bar Hebraeus. Note also person No. 22 Baqrāṭ bin Krīkōr, attested in Hamdallah Mustawfi. I think the last one wrote in Persian, so we also have a Persian attestation. At first I thought Ačaṙyan's transliteration is a misprint, but I find other attestations for Buqrāṭ. The merging with the name of Hippocrates is probably due to folk etymology. Note how Greeks call Bagarat Παγκράτειος. --Vahag (talk) 22:35, 12 July 2015 (UTC)


Could you look at this please? I might have screwed up the Armenian word. --Simboyd (talk) 09:34, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I have added what I could find. Ačaṙean derived from Georgian probably because the word has a more basic meaning there and is more productive. But since ბალახი ‎(balaxi) has no known native etymology and is isoleted within Kartvelian languages, it is more probable that we are dealing with a substrate word surviving independently in Armenian and Georgian, perhaps from Hurro-Urartian. Plant names are often from substrates.
Regarding this. We have no official policy on original research. Original research is going on all the time. Almost every time you add a pronunciation, inflection or basic etymology like in თავქუდმოგლეჯილი, you are using your knowledge and common sense and not some published source explicitly proving the information. We had a long discussion in the Beer Parlour some time ago after CodeCat added some originally-researched Balto-Slavic reconstructions. Most peoplee argued that original research is allowed by knowledgeable users in non-substantial matters as long as their conslusions are supported by prior art, are not challenged by other users and they clearly mark it is their original research. So, reconstructing a PIE root without sources or putting my above theory in the mainspace is forbidden. But deriving პლაჟი ‎(ṗlaži) from Russian пляж ‎(pljaž) or Azeri balax from Georgian ბალახი ‎(balaxi) is allowed. In the latter case the word is almost certainly from Georgian because among Azeri dialects it is found exclusively in Saingilo. Also, Azeri is a newcomer in the region, whereas in Georgian and Armenian the word is attested early. Isn't this an attestation in Old Georgian? --Vahag (talk) 13:03, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

ტრაკი also needs your attention :D --Simboyd (talk) 09:43, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I do not find *տռակ ‎(*tṙak) / *տրակ ‎(*trak) in Armenian. What is your source? What is the meaning? These are close: Armenian տռել ‎(tṙel, to fart), Middle Armenian տռայ ‎(tṙay, a word of uncertain meaning, perhaps ass). --Vahag (talk) 13:44, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
I thought these matters were addressed as they were on Wikipedia, where people absolutely detest original research :D Evidently, things are different here and I guess it makes sense now that you've said it. Not everything has a published source, so sometimes we have to improvise.
As for ტრაკი ‎(ṭraḳi), I found it in Klimov / Khalilov (2003), p. 104 where the Armenian word was defined as "seat". Could it be a now-obsolete Old/Middle Armenian term? Perhaps that is why you've never heard of it. --Simboyd (talk) 15:01, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Also, I'm not sure whether that is an Old Georgian attestation. If Biblia Judaica Georgica predates Vepkhistqaostani (12th century), it can technically be considered to have been present in Old Georgian. --Simboyd (talk) 15:14, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Well that source is The Traditional Oral Translation of the Bible in Judeo-Georgian. and edited by Reuven Enoch xD.
But I have found it in Visramiani link, which could be regarded as Old Georgian.
Though, all of the corpuses here suggest mge.-- 15:51, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
I now see Klimov / Xalilov derived ბალახი ‎(balaxi) from Armenian. Not cool hiding this from me. Anyway, both Armenian and Georgian attestations are old enough to exclude borrowing from Turkic or Kurdish. As to who borrowed from whom, we cannot say as long as we do not provide a native etymology or find the substrate source.
When looking for words, I do not rely on my knowledge only. I have almost all the dictionaries of Armenian ever published and they do not contain ṭraḳ meaning “seat”. There is տրակ ‎(trak, billet) < տետրակ ‎(tetrak, тетрадь) and տրակ ‎(trak, track of a caterpillar tractor). I am almost certain ṭraḳ is spurious. Klimov / Xalilov must have taken it uncritically from somewhere unreliable, perhaps Marr, who in one of his works arbitrarily analyzed Armenian աթոռ ‎(atʿoṙ, chair, seat) as ա-թոռ ‎(a-tʿoṙ) and connected it with θρ-όν-ος ‎(thr-ón-os), both from a "Japhethic" root. Maybe in another work he “modified” աթոռակ ‎(atʿoṙak) to get ṭraḳ and compare it with Georgian. --Vahag (talk) 21:40, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
I would never degrade myself by deceiving or "hiding" something from a somekh :) In fact, to this day, Armos are the ones who are mastered in this field. :D
On a serious note, shouldn't we remove such etymology if our only source is clearly mistaken? Knowingly leaving false info in an entry is not very encyclopedic. Or perhaps Klimov and Khalilov actually meant տրակ ‎(trak, billet) or տրակ ‎(trak, track of a caterpillar tractor), since these are almost identical to Georgian ṭraḳ-i? --Simboyd (talk) 09:29, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Don't be jealous.
Yes, we should remove the dubious etymology. I now notice Klimov / Xalilov make many mistakes, one of which is the derivation of ბოზი ‎(bozi) from Armenian, and not vice-versa. --Vahag (talk) 13:51, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi. Is this allowed? It would make things much simpler when someone decides to change or add something, because he wouldn't have to worry about syncing every entry by making the same edits on them one by one. --Simboyd (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there is something similar in Wiktionary:Picture dictionary/en:Solar System. But it's better to move the template out of your user subpage. --Vahag (talk) 15:58, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Alright, thanks. --Simboyd (talk) 16:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC)