User talk:Vahagn Petrosyan

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Thanks for your help on this and other PIE entries. I just wanted discuss the reconstructions *gʷĺ̥h₂nos/*gʷl̥h₂-eno-. You are right that De Vaan, Beekes, and Martirosyan all propose *gʷl̥h₂eno-, though this would produce neither կաղին nor βᾰ́λᾰνος (but instead should give something like կաղան and βλᾱνος/βληνος). Fortson's Indo-European Language and Culture mentions that in AG Ŕ̥h₁/Ŕ̥h₂/Ŕ̥h₃ appear to give éRe/áRa/óRo respectively; though this theory is debated. This would appear to give the only correct result in this AG etymology, but we can stick with the official etymology if you think it is more appropriate.

Also, I apologize for repeatedly being incapable of typing Old Armenian. :)JohnC5 05:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Neither PIE *gʷĺ̥h₂nos nor *gʷl̥h₂-eno- would give Armenian կաղին ‎(kałin). The first would yield *կաղն ‎(*kałn), the second *կաղան ‎(*kałan). Clackson 1994 reconstructs the former and explains the insertion of -ի- ‎(-i-) by analogy. Martirosyan says he accepts Clackson's explanation but unlike Clackson reconstructs *gʷl̥h₂-eno-. I have written an email to Hrach, let's wait for his clarification. --Vahag (talk) 18:34, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Woah! I didn't know you knew him well enough to email him. That's very cool. Thanks for the help―the world of Armenian etymology is still rather foreign to me. —JohnC5 19:20, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
We're friends. We meet, talk, exchange emails. Sometimes I tell him about my small discoveries in Armenian linguistics. He mentions me in his upcoming article. --Vahag (talk) 19:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
You're so legit. I'm very impressed. May inquire as to the context and content of your article mention? —JohnC5 19:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Don't be so impressed, I'm not very important. Hrach is a very modest man, ready to engage anyone who is genuinely into linguistics. The upcoming article is an Armeno–Anatolica, a study of Anatolian loanwords in Armenian. I have helped him with minor suggestions in preparing the article, so he thanks me in a footnote :) My marginally more substantial contributions (etymological suggestions) he stores in his internal database, with my name. This constantly-growing database will serve as the foundation for a future comprehensive etymological dictionary of Armenian. --Vahag (talk) 20:34, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Martirosyan prefers the reconstruction *gʷl̥h₂-eno-, without going into details. In his opinion *gʷl̥h₂no- too would probably give Armenian *կաղան- ‎(*kałan-) because a laryngeal between a consonant and a resonant is probably vocalized in Armenian. So the mechanism of the analogical insertion of -ի- ‎(-i-) is not relevant.
I think we should mention both reconstructions. --Vahag (talk) 11:28, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sounds good to me! —JohnC5 10:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


I don't know enough to tell if this diff is legitimate, but it certainly set my alarm bells off. Could you take a look? Chuck Entz (talk) 14:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

It's one of the traditional explanations, one among 10 sourced ones in the Russian Wikipedia. Of course it's Hirubator's favourite one. --Vahag (talk) 15:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Could you provide the exact source for Vasmer please? Thanks. --Hirabutor (talk) 19:00, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
What do you mean by the exact source? The source is Vasmer, his opinion, properly referenced with a volume and page number. His exact wording is "Недостоверно ввиду монг. Baigal "Байкал"" = "doubtful [the traditional Turkic origin] in view of [the existence] of Mongol Baigal". --Vahag (talk) 19:22, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I mean the Mongolic etymologies. Would be nice to add them. --Hirabutor (talk) 01:06, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Vasmer does not give any. Among 10 sourced proposals listed in Russian Wikipedia, Nos. 2–5 and 9 argue for a native Buryat origin. I am only marginally interested in Altaic linguistics, so I have to decline reading those sources and entering the information into Wiktionary, sorry. --Vahag (talk) 14:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

suspect diff[edit]

This look right to you? diffקהת — 19:10, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Yep, the comparison belongs to Ačaṙean. --Vahag (talk) 19:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Ok, just wanted to make sure we weren't getting more fabricated nationalist weirdness :D — קהת — 15:01, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Simboyd has reformed. He is reliable now :) --Vahag (talk) 15:13, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

A favour - information about a surname[edit]

Hello, I had to contact someone with the surname 'Mnatzaganian' not too long ago. I was just wondering whether it is an Armenian name and also how it is pronounced (especially the first part - is it a silent 'M'?)? Thanks for any help. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 12:48, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

See Մնացականյան ‎(Mnacʿakanyan). It would be a cognate of Persian Mandani if you had such a surname. --Vahag (talk) 13:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you so much, that is amazing! :D I wan't expecting a link to Persian. Next time I talk to her, I will be able to say her name instead of avoiding names throughout the conversation. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 13:51, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
That happens to me all the time :D People avoiding my name, because they can't remember Vahagn. --Vahag (talk) 13:55, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

New dictionaries (2)[edit]

  • Մեր արմատները նոր լոյսի տակ (1995-1998) by Vartkes Ourishian. This is an etymological dictionary that tries to tie Armenian root words to Arabic origins. I'd be interested to see your and other linguists' opinion on this book. Սէրուժ (talk) 21:30, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
    It's really unscientific, Serouj. Sorry. It reminds me of Template:R:xcl:Hiwnk. But I'm glad you made that rare book online. --Vahag (talk) 09:32, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Անգլերեն-հայերեն բառարան (2011). I like this dictionary. Unlike some other recent "new" English-Armenian dictionaries, this is not a plagiarism of Asmangulian's work with a few cosmetic changes, but instead seems to be a genuine original work. Let me know you're thoughts on it. Սէրուժ (talk) 07:55, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
    I have had this dictionary in print and in .pdf for a long time, but I have not used it much because I have grown accustomed to searching stuff only online. Thanks for adding this to Nayiri. You are right that it is valuable by being an original work. --Vahag (talk) 11:00, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Apparent mistakes in (Old) Armenian templates[edit]

OK, after looking through the warnings I got in my remove-translit code and checking the templates, the following warnings appear to be legit:

Page 183 ալ: WARNING: Value 1=ալ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-adj|ալ}}
Page 581 անատոմիա: WARNING: Value 1=անատոմիայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|անատոմիայ}}
Page 1550 բարով: WARNING: Value 1=barօv has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-interj|barօv}}
Page 2442 դժոխք: WARNING: Value 1=դժոխք has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|դժոխք}}
Page 2723 երախտիք: WARNING: Value 1=երախտ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-noun-ո-ա-pl|երախտ}}
Page 4270 ծովաշուն: WARNING: Value 1=ծովաշներ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun|ծովաշներ}}
Page 4312 կաթսա: WARNING: Value 1=կաթսայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|կաթսայ}}
Page 4356 կամ: WARNING: Value 1=''o''-type instrumentals {{term|կամով|tr=kamov|lang=xcl}} and {{term|կամովք|tr=kamovkʿ|lang=xcl}} are also attested has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-noun-ի-ա|''o''-type instrumentals {{term|կամով|tr=kamov|lang=xcl}} and {{term|կամովք|tr=kamovkʿ|lang=xcl}} are also attested}}
Page 4431 կապվածություն: WARNING: Value 1=կապուածութիւն has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun|կապուածութիւն}}
Page 4667 կինո: WARNING: Value 1=կինոյ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|կինոյ}}
Page 4730 կոալա: WARNING: Value 1=կոալայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|կոալայ}}
Page 5128 հայտարարում: WARNING: Value 1=յայտարարում has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun|յայտարարում}}
Page 6486 մեքենա: WARNING: Value 1=մեքենայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|մեքենայ}}
Page 6497 մթություն: WARNING: Value 1=մթ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ություն|մթ}}
Page 6619 մնացական: WARNING: Value 1=մընացական has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-adj|մընացական}}
Page 6687 մոտոցիկլ: WARNING: Value 1=մոտոցիկլ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun|մոտոցիկլ}}
Page 6813 յոգուրտ: WARNING: Value 1=յո՛գուրտ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun|յո՛գուրտ|յոգուրտ}}
Page 7662 պարագա: WARNING: Value 1=պարագայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|պարագայ}}
Page 7810 պողոտա: WARNING: Value 1=պողոտայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|պողոտայ}}
Page 7961 ռադիո: WARNING: Value 1=ռադիոյ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|ռադիոյ}}
Page 9639 քիմիա: WARNING: Value 1=քիմիայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|քիմիայ}}
Page 534 առնեմ: WARNING: Value 3=առնել has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-verb||արարի|առնել}}
Page 896 բանեմ: WARNING: Value 3=բանել has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-verb||բանեցի|բանել}}
Page 950 բարով: WARNING: Value 1=barօv has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-interj|barօv}}
Page 1097 գարշեմ: WARNING: Value 1=garšеm has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-verb|garšеm|գարշեցի}}
Page 1238 գործեմ: WARNING: Value 3=գործել has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-verb||գործեցի|գործել}}
Page 1513 երախտիք: WARNING: Value 1=երախտ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-noun-ո-ա-pl|երախտ}}
Page 2440 կամ: WARNING: Value 1=''o''-type instrumentals {{term|կամով|tr=kamov|lang=xcl}} and {{term|կամովք|tr=kamovkʿ|lang=xcl}} are also attested has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-noun-ի-ա|''o''-type instrumentals {{term|կամով|tr=kamov|lang=xcl}} and {{term|կամովք|tr=kamovkʿ|lang=xcl}} are also attested}}
Page 3408 մնացական: WARNING: Value 1=մընացական has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-adj|մընացական}}
Page 4899 քառ: WARNING: Value 3=քառից has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{xcl-numeral||քառի|քառից|pg2=քառաց|pg3=քառեաց}}
Page 4945 քիմիա: WARNING: Value 1=քիմիայ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|քիմիայ}}
Page 236 դժոխք: WARNING: Value 1=դժոխք has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{hy-noun-ի-ներ|դժոխք}}

These are likely errors where you meant to put the Armenian in a different parameter, and you might want to fix them. Benwing (talk) 10:05, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm going through the list and fixing my errors. --Vahag (talk) 10:15, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Having missed Russian classes in high school...[edit]

Hi. I've noticed Starostin uses various abbreviations in this dictionary, like ПВК, ПЦ and ПАК. Now, I've managed to decipher some of it but I still don't know what the three I mentioned actually stand for. I especially need the meaning of ПАК for *did-. Since you speak Russian well, could you help me out in this? --Simboyd (talk) 13:43, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Here is the entry for *did- in Starostin. --Simboyd (talk) 13:44, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

  • ПВК is правосточнокавказский / Proto-Northeast-Caucasian, code cau-nec-pro,
  • ПЗК is празападнокавказский / Proto-Northwast-Caucasian, code cau-nwc-pro,
  • ПАК is праадыгейско-кабардинский / Proto-Circassian, code cau-cir-pro,
  • ПЦ is працезский / Proto-Tsez. We do not have a code for it.

See [1], [2], [3]. --Vahag (talk) 14:02, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. --Simboyd (talk) 14:06, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
It's OK. You ran away from Russian influence too quickly. Now your people speak neither Russian, nor good English :) --Vahag (talk) 14:08, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Why are you reconstructing Proto-Kartvelian when Klimov reconstructs only Proto-Georgian-Zan? Is it because the reconstruction is included in Fähnrich? I haven't read Fähnrich's introduction, does he claim that all his reconstructions are Proto-Kartvelian? --Vahag (talk) 14:17, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Fahnrich and Starostin reconstuct only Proto-Kartvelian. There are instances, however, when Fahnrich also reconstructs Proto-Georgian-Zan, but he puts it as a note in the end of each entry. --Simboyd (talk) 14:29, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Actually, scratch that, I just read in the introduction of Fahnrich-Sarjveladze, p. 25 that whenever there is no Svan cognate indicated, the reconstruction is for the Proto-Georgian-Zan stage. You should be able to read this on page 24, Fahnrich 2007, paragraph:
Oft fehlen Angaben, ob die betreffende rekonstruierte Grundform ge-meinkartwelisch oder georgisch-sanisch ist. Auf diese Angaben haben wir verzichtet, da es ohnehin klar ist, daß es sich um das georgisch-sanische chronologische Niveau handelt, wenn es nur georgische und mingrelische bzw. georgische und lasische oder georgische, mingrelische und lasische Lexik betrifft; d. h. wo die swanische Entsprechung fehlt, kann nur bis zum georgisch-sanischen Niveau rekonstruiert werden. Das gemeinkartwelische chronologische Niveau der Rekonstruktion liegt vor, wenn es sich um georgische und swanische bzw. um georgische, mingrelische, lasische und swanische oder nur um mingrelische, lasische und swanische Lexik handelt (Klimow 1964).
Nevertheless, Starostin still reconstructs Proto-Kartvelian. But this may simply be due to the fact that he didn't know/care about Proto-Georgian-Zan. --Simboyd (talk) 14:55, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Starostin does not even have a Proto-Georgian-Zan node in his tree. And he is generally keen on reconstructing long-range proto-forms with scant evidence. I think we should move the page to Proto-Georgian-Zan. Without Svan evidence we cannot reconstruct Proto-Kartvelian. The same is true for მგელი. --Vahag (talk) 15:45, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
I have also moved *ṗaṗ- and *ḳad- to PGZ. I've also made some changes in *ɣamort- for this matter. This is all due to the fact that I screwed up, as always. I now have ~200 entries to review and fix :D Thanks for bringing this up, I would have never realized this myself. --Simboyd (talk) 16:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing those. I still fix my Armenian edits made 7 years ago. --Vahag (talk) 16:15, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

بقراط as transliteration of Բագարատ[edit]

It's the Arabized form of the Greek Hippocrates (also used in New Persian). Are you sure about your edit? (or is it a joke as well? :D) --Z 21:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't joke about substantive issues :) Ačaṙyan gives Arabic بقراط Buqrāṭ as an Arabic transliteration of an Armenian king-name. I find the same in Justi, but transliterated as Baqrāṭ here: person No. 9 Baqrāṭ bin Ašūṭ baṭrīq, attested in Al-Baladhuri, Yaqut al-Hamawi, Ali ibn al-Athir, Bar Hebraeus. Note also person No. 22 Baqrāṭ bin Krīkōr, attested in Hamdallah Mustawfi. I think the last one wrote in Persian, so we also have a Persian attestation. At first I thought Ačaṙyan's transliteration is a misprint, but I find other attestations for Buqrāṭ. The merging with the name of Hippocrates is probably due to folk etymology. Note how Greeks call Bagarat Παγκράτειος. --Vahag (talk) 22:35, 12 July 2015 (UTC)


Could you look at this please? I might have screwed up the Armenian word. --Simboyd (talk) 09:34, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I have added what I could find. Ačaṙean derived from Georgian probably because the word has a more basic meaning there and is more productive. But since ბალახი ‎(balaxi) has no known native etymology and is isoleted within Kartvelian languages, it is more probable that we are dealing with a substrate word surviving independently in Armenian and Georgian, perhaps from Hurro-Urartian. Plant names are often from substrates.
Regarding this. We have no official policy on original research. Original research is going on all the time. Almost every time you add a pronunciation, inflection or basic etymology like in თავქუდმოგლეჯილი, you are using your knowledge and common sense and not some published source explicitly proving the information. We had a long discussion in the Beer Parlour some time ago after CodeCat added some originally-researched Balto-Slavic reconstructions. Most peoplee argued that original research is allowed by knowledgeable users in non-substantial matters as long as their conslusions are supported by prior art, are not challenged by other users and they clearly mark it is their original research. So, reconstructing a PIE root without sources or putting my above theory in the mainspace is forbidden. But deriving პლაჟი ‎(ṗlaži) from Russian пляж ‎(pljaž) or Azeri balax from Georgian ბალახი ‎(balaxi) is allowed. In the latter case the word is almost certainly from Georgian because among Azeri dialects it is found exclusively in Saingilo. Also, Azeri is a newcomer in the region, whereas in Georgian and Armenian the word is attested early. Isn't this an attestation in Old Georgian? --Vahag (talk) 13:03, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

ტრაკი also needs your attention :D --Simboyd (talk) 09:43, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I do not find *տռակ ‎(*tṙak) / *տրակ ‎(*trak) in Armenian. What is your source? What is the meaning? These are close: Armenian տռել ‎(tṙel, to fart), Middle Armenian տռայ ‎(tṙay, a word of uncertain meaning, perhaps ass). --Vahag (talk) 13:44, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
I thought these matters were addressed as they were on Wikipedia, where people absolutely detest original research :D Evidently, things are different here and I guess it makes sense now that you've said it. Not everything has a published source, so sometimes we have to improvise.
As for ტრაკი ‎(ṭraḳi), I found it in Klimov / Khalilov (2003), p. 104 where the Armenian word was defined as "seat". Could it be a now-obsolete Old/Middle Armenian term? Perhaps that is why you've never heard of it. --Simboyd (talk) 15:01, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Also, I'm not sure whether that is an Old Georgian attestation. If Biblia Judaica Georgica predates Vepkhistqaostani (12th century), it can technically be considered to have been present in Old Georgian. --Simboyd (talk) 15:14, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Well that source is The Traditional Oral Translation of the Bible in Judeo-Georgian. and edited by Reuven Enoch xD.
But I have found it in Visramiani link, which could be regarded as Old Georgian.
Though, all of the corpuses here suggest mge.-- 15:51, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
I now see Klimov / Xalilov derived ბალახი ‎(balaxi) from Armenian. Not cool hiding this from me. Anyway, both Armenian and Georgian attestations are old enough to exclude borrowing from Turkic or Kurdish. As to who borrowed from whom, we cannot say as long as we do not provide a native etymology or find the substrate source.
When looking for words, I do not rely on my knowledge only. I have almost all the dictionaries of Armenian ever published and they do not contain ṭraḳ meaning “seat”. There is տրակ ‎(trak, billet) < տետրակ ‎(tetrak, тетрадь) and տրակ ‎(trak, track of a caterpillar tractor). I am almost certain ṭraḳ is spurious. Klimov / Xalilov must have taken it uncritically from somewhere unreliable, perhaps Marr, who in one of his works arbitrarily analyzed Armenian աթոռ ‎(atʿoṙ, chair, seat) as ա-թոռ ‎(a-tʿoṙ) and connected it with θρ-όν-ος ‎(thr-ón-os), both from a "Japhethic" root. Maybe in another work he “modified” աթոռակ ‎(atʿoṙak) to get ṭraḳ and compare it with Georgian. --Vahag (talk) 21:40, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
I would never degrade myself by deceiving or "hiding" something from a somekh :) In fact, to this day, Armos are the ones who are mastered in this field. :D
On a serious note, shouldn't we remove such etymology if our only source is clearly mistaken? Knowingly leaving false info in an entry is not very encyclopedic. Or perhaps Klimov and Khalilov actually meant տրակ ‎(trak, billet) or տրակ ‎(trak, track of a caterpillar tractor), since these are almost identical to Georgian ṭraḳ-i? --Simboyd (talk) 09:29, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Don't be jealous.
Yes, we should remove the dubious etymology. I now notice Klimov / Xalilov make many mistakes, one of which is the derivation of ბოზი ‎(bozi) from Armenian, and not vice-versa. --Vahag (talk) 13:51, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi. Is this allowed? It would make things much simpler when someone decides to change or add something, because he wouldn't have to worry about syncing every entry by making the same edits on them one by one. --Simboyd (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there is something similar in Wiktionary:Picture dictionary/en:Solar System. But it's better to move the template out of your user subpage. --Vahag (talk) 15:58, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Alright, thanks. --Simboyd (talk) 16:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Armenian on PIE root pages[edit]

Thank you for working on these and putting words where they belong. I know nothing about Armenian, and the sound changes are just confusing and weird from my perspective. —CodeCat 23:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm still at the beginning of learning PIE and the historical development of Armenian. Martirosyan has a nice table summarizing the development of PIE phonemes in Armenian, if you're interested. --Vahag (talk) 15:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
That's certainly helpful, thank you! —CodeCat 18:28, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
No problem. But when you delete things like Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/wóyd-, many pages hang in the air. --Vahag (talk) 18:51, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
I kind of missed that so many pages link to it. I've made it into a redirect now. —CodeCat 19:20, 9 August 2015 (UTC)


Здравствуйте! А что означается стрелка в Descendants?--Cinemantique (talk) 19:36, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Стрелка указывает на заимствование, в противовес наследованию. См. применение, например, в smwl. Эта практика неофициальна и не обязательна. Люди постоянно экспериментируют и что-то придумывают. Сегодня увидел такую стрелку — ⇒. Это не так неплохо. Хорошие практики выкристаллизуются и станут обязательными. --Vahag (talk) 20:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Понятно. Спасибо!--Cinemantique (talk) 21:44, 6 August 2015 (UTC)



Here are the link to Wiktionary article and the citation from the printed dictionary:

дерзать - From Proto-Slavic *dьrzati...

Дерза́ть. Общеслав. Образовано с помощью суф. -ати от дьрзъ — «смелый», засвидетельствованного в памятниках и имеющего ту же основу, что дьргати. См. дергать.
(Краткий этимологический словарь русского языка, М., Просвещение, 1971, с 124)

Yaroslav (signed as -- 09:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

That's from Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/dʰers-, not Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/dʰer-. See [4]. --Vahag (talk) 10:36, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that revert on my talk page[edit]

I can't decide whether those changes should be hidden or not. —JohnC5 13:09, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

You decide, it doesn't matter that much. I'm sorry you got caught up in my beef with this crazy person. For some reason he thinks you, Stephen or the UN are going to help him. --Vahag (talk) 13:33, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
He mistakes my general politeness and attempts to help for a willingness to compromise. I try to be as friendly and level-headed on here as possible, but I will not abide that much crazy overflowing onto adjacent talk pages, however interesting it was to read initially.
Also, I very much had a separate beef with him from when he was talking about AG on WT:AGRC.
I also realize that one of his previous comments on my talk page contains a link to his Facebook page. Do I recall correctly that that should be removed? —JohnC5 13:49, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it's best to hide personal information. --Vahag (talk) 13:52, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Wow. 40,898 bytes of unreadable sludge in one post. -sche compared Werdna Yrneh Yarg to Nemzag, but he reminds me more of PaulBustion88 (I suspect, though, that there's a rich vein of religious weirdness there, just waiting to surface). Nemzag is unique- the most arrogant, bigoted, verbose piece of work we've ever had to deal with, as far as I can tell. 17:13, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm glad to hear that he is as exceptional as he appeared to be. I may entirely remove that conversation from my page and hide the changes. —JohnC5 18:28, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
I was just reading through his comments, and I found these paragraphs most interesting:
About himself
I have been, and I com‑manded Belgica and N.A.T.O psychically and tele‑pathically with MIND‑KON‑TROL ULTRA 4 years from 2003 to 2007 by mind (angelic → walvnégggic ملاك) possession إمتلاك… I have been pro‑grammed by thë én‑luminati (Qêlestial (سماء Shêmitic) Olumeni علوم Wolumpi‧an Wapollumphi‧an Alumnus, known as thë Hakan Déva Divus Dius Théus Zéus Di‑Daos Deos Indra Rodinath رعديناث Aévra‑mazda Diu‑piter الفاطر (“creator, originator”) Im‑perator per‑êmnis shqipo‑shupremium) with “MON‑ARCH” (shole rêguler / thë only one leader) pro‑graphm‧ing to be‑come an en‑lightened Abuddʰama أبددهامى (Eternal أبد, Per‑man‧ênθ ددم, دهام, in‑genuity دهاء)…
I know lot of things and I'm in‑fluential man who will re‑wolutionize this world in thë future (with my vriting, binary theory and my new techno‑logical ideas), you don't com‑pre‑hend how special and visionary I’m. I will achieve my de‑stiny even if some re‑tro‑grade & rivals minds and souls want to pre‑vent me to do so… I'm really a messenger of my Divine Lord and a novator a‑mêliora‑tor im‑prova‑tor جدد ججد [gudd budd], this vork is my ef‑fort جهد هدي [ged] to guide هدي [edi] in the right path of faith.
I have some oc‑cult, esoteric and mystique know‑ledge, and in thë case of my MON‑ARCH con‑ditioning, I m a mentor… With my study and my little sciêncë of thë greatest languages (Lathin, Crêgu, Shlove, Shqyp, Français, Engël‧ish, Orbitian / Obrith, Persian, Shams‑krit), I be‑came a pro‑graphmator of thë most in‑ter‑esting logical con‑ditionning soft‑ware of thë world : thë languages… And now I create my own one (positive one), based on thë binary codex that I de‑scribed to you…
About Vahagn's name
But your name have not that meaning in true Ancient‑Qrêgu Vorphthéos that I can de‑scribe be‑cause I have thë original code & keys. Since thë alpha use Rough Spirit thë true vords for purity and saint is SHAGI‧OS (Sanctus → Shangθus) and SHAG‧N‧OS. So In fact your name mean in "Le Grand Bailly" :
So you are not a saint, holy or sacred (but an e‑manation of thë سقر [saqar] {Wikipedia), your a just a fake & false holy one, thë Warmenian Hayastan god of Fire… Also since VAHAGN is re‑lated to AGNI/IGNIS/OGON and since your name is re‑lated to ΑΓΩ I can say this : “you lead, guide di‑rectly your‑self and others in to fire or to جهنم [genm] (ΓΕΕΝΜΑ) / IGNIS / OGON”… This is what I can say about vetumo‑logy of your name… Your de‑stiny is vritten in your name…
About trolls and poison
Kephr, you called me a troll = Rol רעל = “Poison, venom”, in fact I have been poisoned many time in thë past, by U.S chemical miniaturized pharmaceutical weapons (φαρμάκι : poison, venom) from Johnson & Johnson (Anti‑Psy with toxic, de‑grading, de‑forming, cancerous and tera‑togenic elements like Sulfur, Chlore, Fluor), this is thë snake spirit → srapit serpentis of the satanic church, venom of this world, the amaraka मारक ‎(māraka). These sub‑stance are ana‑logous than the anti‑mutant serum in X‑Men movies & comic book… They blocked my psy capabilities and re‑trieved my com‑mandment for their own in‑terest (they want now to mind‑com‑mand Olvarbamnians, but they will never suc‑ceed)…
I thought these represented the most powerful and persuasive sections of the rant. —JohnC5 22:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
We are laughing but the man clearly needs psychiatric help. One day he may start chopping off people's heads. --Vahag (talk) 11:45, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm sorry about that; I couldn't resist the temptation. @Chuck Entz, as a more experienced admin is there a way to remove and hide all of his personal information (FB profile) from my talk page's history? I can't figure it out. —JohnC5 14:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Any edit other than the current one can be hidden: you can click on "change visibility" for individual edits as seen in diff view, user contributions or revision history, or select several in the revision history using the checkboxes and click "change visibility of selected revisions". This hides the edits in the same way that a deletion does, so it's sometimes referred to as a revision deletion, or revdel, for short. It should always be used for inappropriate personal information and personally-identifiable attacks, and usually for spam web links and copyvios. I also use it on attention-seeking vandalism so there's nothing in the edit history vandals can show their friends, but I seem to be alone in this. The main caveat is that edit histories are required to provide attribution for the CC licensing, so any legitimate edits done while the bad content is present shouldn't be hidden if it can be avoided. That doesn't apply in this case, though. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:29, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz: Did I do that correctly? You can still see the information in intervening edits. Is there a way to prevent that? I'm sorry I didn't catch this earlier. —JohnC5 16:32, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Well, removing the edit summary and user name is probably overkill. As for the intervening edits, there's really nothing you can do: either you hide them or you leave them as they are. If you do leave them, there's not much point in hiding the other edits to remove personal information that's there in the visible edits. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:48, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
So... ? (Sorry for all the questions) —JohnC5 16:53, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
That means you have to decide whether hiding the link to the facebook page is important enough to require hiding all the intervening edits- which is a very difficult judgment call. If it isn't, there's no point in hiding the earlier edits. Hiding the latter edit might be worthwhile in itself, since it consists of a mentally-ill person indiscriminately spewing the contents of their brains out in public for everyone to gawk at. I agree with Vahagn here: the perception that their problems are due to being persecuted by evil people is a warning sign that they may be heading for a murder-suicide like any number of workplace and/or domestic killings that you've seen in the news lately. I'm not sure what we can do about it from a continent or two away, but it's potentially very serious. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:37, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Thinking about it a little more, the text and signatures in the version after the problematic content is removed is a decent stand-in for the edit history of the intervening edits, since there's no way any of the problematic content should ever find its way into an entry. Besides, it's a talk page: Equinox deletes his whole page, unarchived, from time to time. I would recommend hiding the text for the intervening edits, with an edit summary of "inappropriate personal information". I would also recommend removing the text quoted here, and hiding the text of the edits showing it- though that would be Vahagn's call. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
It looks like he's back: 2A02:A03F:8A8:8600:89F:7829:B1AB:F4AB (talkcontribswhoisdeleted contribsnukeedit filter logblockblock logactive blocksglobal blocks). He seems to be behaving himself so far- I'll let you guys decide whether to block him. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:39, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
He has been abusing multiple accounts from Macedonian and Belgian IPs for a long time. I am blocking him as soon as I notice. He can't be trusted and our time is too precious to tease out his good contributions. --Vahag (talk) 08:11, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I assume this contributor is he? —JohnC5 22:36, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes. This whack-a-wacko game is getting tiresome. --Vahag (talk) 11:39, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
Don't worry Chuck Entz, I don't plan to make these kind of stupid acts against innocent... I'm not evil... I said, I try to be in the right path, after all that I have learn in my life and the tao‑project that I have, making an S.M, would be the dumbest thing to do, I have so much thing to achieve & to learn in my life... My comparison in Krêguos & ATQN, are not coming vrom an ill mind, but by the true one (H.C. 23‑70, 62‑1 to 6)... Never mind, you can say what you want, so I can say what I want. But still you should not give such diagnose, when for me the real sicks peoples are you... 2A02:A03F:86A:6F00:C9C3:A950:DC7C:2749 14:00, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Iranian verb favor[edit]

Could I get you to add the material from {{R:ine:Cheung2007}} *tan (and maybe *tand) to the new PIE *ten-? I am not as familiar with the development of Iranian verbs. —JohnC5 05:07, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

I added what I could. Not sure where to put the unsorted formations. I am not familiar with the development of Iranian verbs either (yet, I plan to study). The Lexikon der indogermanischen Nomina to which I referred has a wealth of additional information, if you feel like adding it. By the way, I like very much this format of PIE entries with meticulous references which you popularized. Keep up the good work. --Vahag (talk) 17:26, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your help and kind words. It normally takes me a few hours to set up one of the articles, but I think the result is very professional looking. I haven't decided what the policy should be regarding placing all the references after the head word. It has the upside of getting them all in a row but making a hideous block of hypertext in the edit window. What are your thoughts on that?
I will go through and add some more stuff in a minute, but in the mean time a few other questions:
  1. For the section under *tón-os
    It seems like normally Brugmann's Law would result in *tāna- as in तान ‎(tāna). Is there any possibility these stem from a different form such as *tén-os? I can't read slavic languages at all, so your source is off limits to me.
  2. It is very mysterious whence those Iranian verb forms stemmed. Cheung mentions the MP preterite stem tt-, which I am sure is from the perfect *te-tón-, but the origin of the remaining (and numerous) present forms is baffling to me. If the come from an innovative present, I have no idea what it is. —JohnC5 17:53, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I'll look into the LIN for details and also determine whether the root *tenh₂- of tenuis should be included in this article. —JohnC5 17:53, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I have no preference about referencing the headword line. I put Pokorny there because it is a general reference and I didn't know where else to put it.
Abaev derives Proto-Iranian *tana- "from Proto-Indo-European *tono-, *teno-" (i.e. gives the forms with a comma and does not go into details) and compares Avestan θanvar-tan- “bowstring” (with a question mark), Sanskrit तान ‎(tāna, thread; fibre; musical tone), Welsh tant ‎(string), Ancient Greek τόνος ‎(tónos, rope, cord) and τένων ‎(ténōn, sinew). I picked *tón-os because its descendants have a closer meaning to the Ossetian words, which mean “string”, whereas the reflex of *tén-os, Sanskrit तनस् ‎(tanas), means “offspring”. But feel free to move the Iranian to *tén-os and keep the source. I don't know enough about the validity of Brugmann's law to decide.
By the way, Abaev also mentions Khanty tan “sinew” and Archi тенне ‎(tenne, sinew) as possible borrowings from Iranian, but they are probably native words, the first one from *sëne. --Vahag (talk) 20:53, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
To my knowledge Brugmann's Law is pretty well accepted; though WP provides a host of exceptional situations. I realize now that those PIr forms would probably don't go back to the athematic *tén-os ~ *tén-es- of तनस् ‎(tanas), as s-stems are an entirely different declensional ballgame, but probably should go to some thematic *tén-os like तन n ‎(tána, offspring) / तना f ‎(tánā, persistence) if anything. You are correct though that the semantic relationship of*tón-os is quite appealing, and I trust Abaev to know more about PIr than me.
To your point about Khanty and Archi, I had literally never heard of those languages until reading your post; so I have effectively zero input about them. —JohnC5 21:19, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
The PIE entry looks even more impressive now, with LIN’s content incorporated. If we are going for finding all reflexes, note Olsen 1999, pages 281–282, about the suffixal use of this root in several daughters, including Old Armenian -այն ‎(-ayn). Another potential reflex is Old Armenian տանիմ ‎(tanim), but the phonological problems remain insurmountable. --Vahag (talk) 21:40, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I will mention that I haven't been putting in all the reflexes, particularly since the LIN seems to derive everything from PIE. While I like this approach in theory, I prefer to have at least a couple cognates before I spend the effort working on the proto-form. As for that link, Armenian google books doesn't not seem to like me for whatever reason. —JohnC5 22:03, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Try opening, and scrolling to the bottom of the page 281. She talks about a PIE suffix *-tn̥o-, *-tn̥i-, *-tno-, from the root *ten-. Vahag (talk) 22:34, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
This is a good find. I can only see those two pages in my preview, but a great source nonetheless. I'll work on this in a bit. I've often wondered about the -tinus in diūtinus. —JohnC5 22:53, 30 August 2015 (UTC)


Это ведь словарь, все слова в алфавитном порядке — найти статью не составит труда.--Cinemantique (talk) 21:57, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

В будущем на основе номера страницы можно получить внешние ссылки прямо на нужную страницу. См. как это реализовано в Template:R:xcl:AG или Template:R:ru:Chernykh. К тому же, не все легко владеют кириллицей. Я, например, долго ищу грузинские слова в словаре по алфавиту; мне легче найти номером страницы. Наконец, ссылка без страницы — это не академично. Когда ты пишешь статью (перейдём на ты), тебе ведь очень легко добавить страницу. Сделать это потом будет труднее. --Vahag (talk) 22:17, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

И я так и не понял, как там поставить научную латынь. Или это неважно?--Cinemantique (talk) 22:05, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Шаблон дефективен. Я написал в WT:GP. --Vahag (talk) 22:17, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

etymology of πυροσβέστης[edit]

When the noun πυροσβέστης was created in Katharevousa Greek, the word πυρ did not exist in Greek; only πῦρ existed. RegardsSoSivr (talk) 03:53, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Those are the same words, in different orthography. My problem was that you linked to the Ancient Greek entry. Feel free to link to Katharevousa πῦρ ‎(pῦr), with the code el. --Vahag (talk) 10:13, 15 September 2015 (UTC)


Hi Vahagn,

As always, I deeply appreciate your contributions and your clean-ups after I come and make a mess. I'm just seriously wondering about ծիրանի meaning "purple" in contemporary Armenian. Is a bilingual dictionary enough to go by? Why have monolingual, Armenian dictionaries not picked up on this? If they have, if you know of a monolingual dictionary, please let me know! Arax (talk) 15:40, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

A possibly unrelated issue: I've never heard of a purple apricot. With all the apricots I've seen, even when completely near-rotten ripe, they're still some shade of orange. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:13, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
In Old Armenian ծիրանի ‎(cirani) definitely meant “purple”. In the Bible it stands for Ancient Greek πορφύρεος ‎(porphúreos, purple). Note also a formation such as ծիրան-ա-ծին ‎(ciran-a-cin, Porphyrogenitus, born in the purple). In modern Armenian the word is a literary borrowing from Old Armenian. As Malxaseancʿ explains, it is used for different bright and pleasant colors. The use as “purple” in the modern translation of the Bible is sufficient to verify that meaning.
The nature of the relation with ծիրան ‎(ciran, apricot) is disputed. There are many theories on the origin of both. It is unclear which one is the primary etymon. It is even possible they are unrelated. One proposal derives both from an Iranian color adjective meaning “golden”: compare Avestan zaraṅiia-, Ossetian зӕри́н ‎(zærín), Sogdian zyrnynʾk, all meaning “golden”. I don't want to import all of this information into Wiktionary yet. Too much work. --Vahag (talk) 21:16, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
Ok, thanks! Arax (talk) 11:22, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


This just popped up in Special:WantedCategories, but it's really just one of Marmase's Turkish-to-Zazaki transplants from a year and a half ago that was hidden because it had the wrong language code. Could you either check it or chuck it, whichever seems appropriate? Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 06:46, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I find it in Çeko Kocadag's Kurdish–Zazaki dictionary as a translation of Kurdish ember. But since the latter is polysemous, it is safer to remove the entry altogether. --Vahag (talk) 08:31, 20 October 2015 (UTC)


Dear friend hello. Your rollback for عاشق is in error. Ishq عشق and all the words derived from this word, rooted in Avestan iš- "to wish, desire, search". It is not an Arabic word. But it is a concept very important in Sufism, because of the Persian philosophers and Sufis like Attar, Rumi, Hafez, etc. This word has an Indo-European root, not Semitic. Love in Arabic means "Habba حب". I didn't revert your new edit. I'm waiting for your feedback. Thank you! —This unsigned comment was added by Rohanfarozhi (talkcontribs).

If that was all there was to your edit, you might have a point (I wouldn't know), but you also removed big chunks of the entry (I assume by accident), and most of your actual content wasn't formatted according to our standards. If I had seen that first, I would have reverted it myself- and, unlike Vahagn, I don't know much about the languages involved. Chuck Entz (talk) 12:56, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
All the traditional academic sources consider the word to be native Arabic. I have added some of them. Your link points to an amateur website and cannot be taken seriously. Also, as Chuck noted, be sure to follow our formatting in the future. --Vahag (talk) 14:53, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Dear Vahagn and Chuck Entz, Pay attention please! The references, which you added are from Andalusia, Palestine, Turkey and modern Arabic. 1- Do not forget that Turkish is not a Semitic or Indo-European language. Because of Islam and Sufism, this word exist in Turkish. Because Rumi (grand Persian Sufi) is died in Konya, Turkey. 2- Andalusia (Spain) and Palestine before Islam had been speaking in Latin and Aramaic, not Arabic. Before Islam, Arabic was limited to Yemen and Saudi Arabia. The root of a word is ancient version of a language not the modern one. In Saudi Arabia, nobody use Ishq عشق. They use habba حب. Ishq don’t exist in Quran, because Ishq عشق is the only Persian word for love. In Persian, if I want to say “my love”, I will say “Ishqam عشقم” but in Turkish is “sevgim”, in Arabic is “Habbibi حبیبی”. Please check it: STEINGAS, Francis Joseph. A Comprehensive Persian-English Dictionary, عشق, Asian Educational Services, 1992, page 850, (accessed in 26 October 2015). --Rohanfarozhi (talk) 17:36, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Even your source, Steingass, says Persian عشق ‎('išq) is an Arabic borrowing (the symbol ᴀ means just that). Look, get your idea published in a peer-reviewed linguistic journal, then we can include it in Wiktionary. --Vahag (talk) 19:09, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

In this book almost all the words have an A! Except the words which contain گ، ژ، پ، چ. Because these letters don't exist in Arabic. And now, can you say to me which word describes LOVE in Persian language!?? Because, the first person who changed this page in Arabic topic is YOU! Ishq do not exist in Quran. Although it is the most important concept of Sufism. Because Sufism rooted in Iranian culture and Mithraism. Don't forget today Andalusia, Palestine, Turkey, etc. before Islam was territory of the Sassanid Empire and the Roman Empire, which were in a common belief (Mithraism). I'm Persian, and I don't know another word in Persian for love! While in all of the languages (Turkish, Arabic, etc.), other words which are more Turkish, more Arabic, etc. exist for love!--Rohanfarozhi (talk) 20:15, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Some of the native Iranian words relating to the concept of “love” are *kām- ‎(to desire, love) (see *keh₂-), *kan- ‎(to love, take pleasure in) and *mitra ‎(covenant, in some descendants love). It is not my fault you then became Arabized and replaced basic native terms with Arabic loans. Your forefathers should have fought more valiantly at the Battle of Qādisiyyah. --Vahag (talk) 09:52, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Dear, kām کام means desire (for example when you have a goal in your mind) like kamrava کامروا (who is lucky. Because he/she gained his/her goal.) And mitra میترا is a Sanskrit word which means friend. In Persian mitra like a goddess names mehr مهر, which means kindness! If Ishq is an Arabic word, why also exist in Indian language and sanskrit??? While they are not Muslim or they don't speak Arabic! Do you really know history and linguistics of Arabia, Iran, Islam and sufism? You can’t change topic of a page from Persian to Arabic, just because of a dictionary! Behind all the words exist history, philosophy, linguistic points, etc. Are you Muslim, Persian or Arabic native!!??? Or specialist in these categories? --Rohanfarozhi (talk) 10:16, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

OK, here is the deal. I am paid by King Salman and the World Zionist Congress to deny the Persian origin of عاشق. Until your ayatollahs cut me a better deal the entry stays as it is. --Vahag (talk) 10:23, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Maybe an archaic but native equivalent is attested? --Romanophile (contributions) 10:26, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
I know only of مهر ‎(mehr, love). --Vahag (talk) 10:39, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Ha ha ha!!! Our ayatollahs appreciate you, because they are Arabe too!!! But I just spoke from the reality! Ishq is an Indo-European or more precise Indo-Iranian word, rooted in avestan iš- and sanskrit eṣ- . While you can't find its root in Arabic!--Rohanfarozhi (talk) 10:37, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes but Mehr مهر means kindness, like mehrban مهربان, who is kind. for "my love" you can't use Mehr. You must say عشقم Ishqam. For "I'm falling in love with you." you can't use Mehr. You must say "Man asheqe to hastam. من عاشق تو هستم."--Rohanfarozhi (talk) 10:46, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh! MY GOD!!!!!!! I LOVE wiktionnaire! Even Mehr مهر in wiktionnaire is a Arabic word!!!!! ha ha ha!!!!!!!! They conjugated mehr in Arabic! I LOVE THEM!--Rohanfarozhi (talk) 10:55, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh! OK! I have anything to say! The problem is not error of one or two pages! Thank you for conversation. Bye.--Rohanfarozhi (talk) 10:58, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

A New? Zazaki User[edit]

Zazana227 (talkcontribsglobal account infodeleted contribsnukeedit filter logpage movesblockblock logactive blocks) has been adding a lot of Zazaki translations, which I would know nothing about, but this diff looks kind of like Marmuse's modus operandi. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:25, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think this is Marmase. I will drop him a message. Thank you for letting me know. --Vahag (talk) 09:12, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Zaza language[edit]

Im newest user in viktionary. Im sorry.

I want you one appeal. Zazaki translate system ise broken. Zaza language same norwegian language.





I want this type zazaki view system. My best regards. Zazana227 (talk) 09:58, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

You can use that system manually. See how in the translation of platypus Ossetian is subdivided into Iron and Digor.
What dialect is qen? I only find hêt, qor, palîste, bite, rehn, palîsne, hête, hite, quer for “ass”. --Vahag (talk) 10:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
for example for
kırmancki:semed . This is big problem to zaza language. Zaza language is modern language but dimli and kirmancki dialekt. Bes regards Zazana227 (talk) 16:48, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Do it like this. --Vahag (talk) 16:52, 5 November 2015 (UTC)