User talk:Vahagn Petrosyan

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Thanks for fixing პრინცესა (ṗrincesa); I apologise for perpetuating and entrenching the preëxisting error. Re принцесса (princessa), are you sure it derives from the German Prinzessin? de:Prinzessin states that, up till the nineteenth century, the usual form was Prinzess / Prinzeß. If принцесса was borrowed before the 19th C., one of those etyma would've been a more likely candidate. Plus, the addition of (-a) is easier to explain that the removal of -in (especially if exists as a feminine suffix in Russian as well as Serbo-Croatian). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:11, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I noticed that the mistake was introduced by Embryomystic's inappropriate use of {{borrowing}}. As for принцесса, it was borrowed during Peter the Great's reign. According to Vasmer the etymon is Prinzessin but I think Prinzess is more likely. Let's be bold and change the etymology. --Vahag (talk) 17:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. I've created Prinzess and added принцесса as a descendant, accordingly. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 18:05, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Comment from an IP[edit]

I don't know how to leave a comment here, but I was shocked to see that no one knew the genitive for the German word "das Kino". One does not even need to know German to consult the Duden Dictionary, to see that everything that I posted is a fact, in-line with the currently accepted German grammar rules. I apologize if I did not edit "EXACTLY" the way that is accepted on Wiktionary, but I was just trying to provide information that someone might later put in the appropriate format for this site. The partative IS only expressed though the genitive in German. I have the physical dictionary in front of me. I'm sure that internet links can be found on the internet, but I want to just give you the facts. How can you prove or disprove them if you erase them immediately? This seems very bias. :( —This unsigned comment was added by (talk).

I explained to you that the German entry is at Kino, not kino. --Vahag (talk) 16:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


Are you sure that this Modern Greek word has descendants in those languages - are they not from Ancient or Byzantine/Mediaeval Greek? — Saltmarshαπάντηση 18:18, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

My sources on Ukrainian and Romanian explicitly say "from New Greek". --Vahag (talk) 18:33, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to doubt you !) — Saltmarshαπάντηση 11:17, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
As rightly you should be! Know you not that Vahag's genetic material comes straight from the gargantuan balls of God (որը մեր հիմար մոլորություններից դուրս գոյություն չունի)? — [Ric Laurent] — 16:57, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
 :D --Vahag (talk) 16:55, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

թե, թե՞ որ[edit]

Hey man. I've been looking at these trying to figure out the difference. It looks like որ can be used as a conjunction or (with -ը/ն) a relative pronoun, but that թե is only used as a conjunction. It kind of looks like they're synonymous as conjunctions, but is there any little coloring of meaning that isn't obvious? — [Ric Laurent] — 15:46, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

You are right, թե is only used as a conjunction. Թե and որ are synonymous, but they are used in different contexts. As a native speaker, I have not paid attention to what governs their use and my head hurts trying to figure out the difference. So I have to copy-paste Dum-Tragut: "թե is particularly often used introducing interrogative sentences with interrogative pronouns but it also serves to introduce reported speech clauses governed by certain verbs." I don't know if this is helpful. --Vahag (talk) 16:28, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
I hate when that happens, being unable to figure out differences between similar words. Especially in languages like mine that way overuse prepositions. Like. "Meet up"? This isn't going down in heaven. Up makes no damn sense.
The reported speech part makes sense. Like... Եղբայրս ասաց, թե բլաբլաբլա? The first part is a little weird. I can't imagine why one would need an interrogative pronoun in the introduced sentence... like... What? It... Yeah, it hurts my brain also lol :D Still, it's helpful enough, even if I'm not an expert lol.
That reminds me, I was going to tell you I ordered this book by Andranik last week, Առաքելոց վանքին կռիւը. (It took me a minute to figure out because of the weird font on the cover lol.) I wish I had enough to afford Dum-Tragut. I should've gotten it while I had the chance. The pdf just isn't the same. — [Ric Laurent] — 13:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
I think Dum-Tragut means cases like this: Lua error in Module:parameters at line 85: The parameter "t" is not used by this template., Lua error in Module:parameters at line 85: The parameter "t" is not used by this template.. Interrogative pronouns are bold. Are you going to read Andranik in Armenian? --Vahag (talk) 15:00, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Seeing it like that makes more sense now. In those kinds of sentences, the թե doesn't translate at all, it's just a grammatical thing. Man, I haven't seen something like that in a while.... That actually did make that part a lot clearer, but now I have one more question on the reported speech thing. Hopefully it's the last one I have on this lol. How freely can թե and որ be interchanged? Եւ՛ <ասացին, որ ուզում են> եւ՛ <ասացին, թե ուզում են> կոշեր ե՞ն։
I might try to read it, but the most we can say for sure is that I will own Andranik in Armenian lol. Saw some other stuff on eBay that looked like it could be interesting. One was a book of poetry in Armenian. The other had a sexy cover. I can't remember what it was called offhand, I'll have to look... — [Ric Laurent] — 16:46, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
In that example they are interchangeable. The first sounds more colloquial to me. Andranik's book is in Western Armenian and Traditional Orthography. Good luck :) --Vahag (talk) 19:49, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Aw fuck. I could probably handle TO for the most part, but Western Armenian fucks my brain like a really sexually talented man fucks a cheap unsuspecting prostitute. Anyway, maybe I can get some vocabulary out of it. lol. For an example sentence, is this grammar all g? Ի՞նչ է, որի մասին ուզում ես խոսել։ (What is it that you want to talk about?) — [Ric Laurent] — 21:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Nice simile, writer's talent shines through :) Use Ինչի՞ մասին ես ուզում խոսել։ --Vahag (talk) 22:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
That's probably what I would have said normally; I just wanted to try to be fancy, test out the grammar lol. Oh! Վահրամ Սահակյանի Հավերժ Կախաղան։ That was the other book I saw on eBay. The one with the սեքսուալ cover. Wikipedia declares it romance novel, which worries me. American romance novels are...something else. I hope this one is violent or something. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Vahram Sahakian is a famous potty mouth and алконавт. Could be good. --Vahag (talk) 22:44, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm so wildly curious.... It'd probably be worth the price. I'm going to have to find out what it's about. — [Ric Laurent] — 23:41, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Турецкие существительные[edit]

Привет Вааг,

Может быть лучше изменить {{tr-noun}}, чтобы (definite accusative [ [ ] ]) не показывалось и сделать этот параметр не обязательным, если этот шаблон сделан специально для турецкого? Носителям языка будет легче работать с таким шаблоном, чем переделывать {{head}}. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:16, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Привет, Анатолий. Я поэкспериментировал с {{tr-noun}} и побоялся там что-то изменить, сломаю. В любом случае проблема не в этом конкретном {{tr-noun}}, а в безответственном поведении Lo Ximiendo. До этого она добавляла неправильные hyphenation для русского и армянского. Сейчас несёт всякую антинаучную х*%ню. Этому должен быть положен конец. --Vahag (talk) 11:05, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Наверное ты прав. Она перестала обращать внимание на просьбы других участников. У нее было много полезного редактирования с арабским, польским, немецким, похоже она смогла разобраться даже с шаблонами склонения и спряжения, хотя Maro отменял все ее правки. Кстати, я не видел неправильного слогоделения для русского. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:33, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Да, жаль терять пользователя. Насчёт русского слогоделения не помню, но она добавляля слогоделение для армянского (точно неправильное), грузинского, амхарского, сирийского, и т.д. Некому проверить правильность последних. --Vahag (talk) 06:46, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Reference template data[edit]

All those abbreviations are killing me. Do you think it would be wise to relocate it into per-language Lua tables? Additional benefits would be 1) ability for smart post-processing for generation of external URLs, reducing the overall number of parameters 2) eliminate abbreviations, e.g. {{R|lang-code|author=X|Year=Y|page=Z}} would suffice (or add additional support for abbreviations and optional reference-specific parameters) 3) uniform layout. WP's citation module subsystem is very complex and we need a fraction of its layout functionality, which could easily be manually replicated. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 19:42, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think it would be wise. Another benefit of having tables of references is avoiding duplicate reference templates. I had to delete {{IEW}} today. Eliminating abbreviations altogether is not a good idea; some references are much better known by their abbreviations. Besides, many references do not have authors, e.g. encyclopedias. --Vahag (talk) 21:41, 22 November 2013 (UTC)


Այս բառը չա՛րն է։ Ինչու՞ հոդ չունի։ :( — [Ric Laurent] — 17:34, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, it used to have article in archaic Eastern Armenian and still has one in contemporary Western Armenian. I don't know why we lost it. Being a non-regular plural must have played a role. --Vahag (talk) 17:42, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Is that the only word like that, with identical indefinite and definite plurals? I can't think of any others. Even the ones with plurals that look irregular to me lol.
Hey, when there's a consonant cluster at the end of the word before a vowel-initial word, like in փառքն անվերջ է :D that's pronounced [ˌpʰɑrkʰən ɑnˈvɛɾt͡ʃʰ ɛ], right?
Speaking of Western Armenian, I finally got that book and tried to read a little of it. I feel like my Eastern Armenian is getting better, but the book.. is essentially a foreign language to me lol. — [Ric Laurent] — 17:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I can think of կանայք (kanaykʿ), պարոնայք (paronaykʿ).
[ˌpʰɑrkʰn‿ɑnˈvɛɾt͡ʃʰ ɛ] sounds more natural to me, sorry :)
Even I haven't studied Western Armenian yet, but I'm planning to. --Vahag (talk) 18:01, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
[ˌpʰɑrkʰn‿ɑnˈvɛɾt͡ʃʰ ɛ] was my second guess lol.... There are a few spots like that in Վստահելի Վերջաղիքը that I'll have to ask you about. Trying to fit the words to the music is still kicking my ass.
Do you think you really have to study it? Probably just a good hard look at it would be enough lol. I imagine it's kind of like how I think of Australian or British English; different but reproducible with care? — [Ric Laurent] — 21:28, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I understand everything I read in Western Armenian but I can't contribute in it with 100% certainty. I need to study before I can construct conjugation and declension templates. --Vahag (talk) 21:36, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Ahh, tesnum em. I had considered that problem a few years ago, but with my current feelings about wiktionary it's less like a job and more like a...I dunno. Thing. I need. More booze.
Speaking of need... I need to ask you about Armenian ways of expressing need. But that booze thing was serious; I'm like at that spot where I've had too much to be coherent but if I have more I can regain some of my coherence. I don't know how the hell that works. God works in mysterious ways. Speaking of God: Աստծո = [ɑstˈt͡so] (ɑstːˈso) or [ɑstəˈt͡so]? — [Ric Laurent] — 23:19, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Well, expressing need is easy. X եմ ուզում or ուզում եմ X.
The occurrence of [ə], which is non-phonemic, gives trouble even to native speakers. Colloquially I pronounce [ɑsˈt͡so]. [ɑstəˈt͡so] and [ɑsˈt͡sːo] are probably right as well. --Vahag (talk) 10:14, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha I forgot to come back and be more specific about 'need' after I got sloshed. I usually think of expressing need for nouns and verbs. I forgot we had the entry I need your help, but I don't know how extreme a need would have to be before using կարիք ունեմ lol. But for "I need to verb," are there modal auxiliary verbs that mean like "I must X"? — [Ric Laurent] — 12:48, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Good morning, alky :) "I need to verb" is "ես պետք է verb", e.g. ես պետք է չիշիկ անեմ (es petkʿ ē čʿišik anem, I need to pee, I must pee). --Vahag (talk) 12:55, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
صبح بخیر :) The verb is subjunctive with that, right? I haven't looked a lot at subjunctive verbs. Or actually anything but present, perfect and aorist lol. It's just so...much. T_T — [Ric Laurent] — 13:14, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it is the subjunctive. I expect an English-speaking brain to blow up when it tries to understand the subjunctive. --Vahag (talk) 13:35, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha not this guy. After Romanian, Lithuanian, Persian... subjunctives are easy. I just have to learn how to make them in Armenian. — [Ric Laurent] — 13:45, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

մի թե մեկ[edit]

Եթե խոսում եմ <Մեր մոլորակը (one moon) ունի> ասել, մի լուսին թե՞ մեկ լուսին կլինի։ I feel like it should be mek lusin, but something is giving me doubt lol — [Ric Laurent] — 17:52, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

They are completely interchangeable in that example. If there is any stylistic difference, it is lost on this native speaker. --Vahag (talk) 19:01, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha cool, thanks man. :) — [Ric Laurent] — 19:48, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
You're welcome, buds. --Vahag (talk) 19:55, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
I should also ask you about the other idea that I originally had for that second example sentence, and your edit to it that gave me another question :D
In Armenian, is "there are" կան or կա? In Persian you'd use the singular for both. (هست hast)
I'll compare Persian for my second question, too. I used "ութ մոլորակնեո" because I saw those words used on the Armenian wikipedia article for solar system. But I think in that case it was used as the subject of the sentence. So in Persian, whenever you have a counting word before the noun, like هشت‌تا سیاره (hašt-tâ sayâre) you don't use a plural marker. How is it in Armenian? Is the plural marker only dropped when the counted word is an object instead of subject, or is there more subtlety I'm missing? — [Ric Laurent] — 21:10, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
"There are" is կան, "there is" is կա. Yes, the plural marker is dropped only when the counted word is an object instead of subject. That being sad, many "educated" Armenians under the influence of Russian and English do not drop the plural, e.g. Սեղանին կան չորս գրքեր։ (Sełanin kan čʿors grkʿer.), instead of Սեղանին կա չորս գիրք։ (Sełanin ka čʿors girkʿ., There are four books on the table). People with no knowledge of foreign languages speak more naturally and correctly. --Vahag (talk) 21:38, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
If you took չորս out, would it be Սեղանին կան գրքեր։ (Sełanin kan grkʿer.)? It also makes me think of another variation. If you wanted to say Իմ եղբայրները <wives> ունեն (Im ełbayrnerə <wives> unen) would wives be rendered կանանց to agree, or կնոջ? I know some languages think using singular makes it clear enough. I think Persian is like that. If you have the plural marker there it would imply definiteness. It would sound more like "they have the wives" instead of "they have wives." — [Ric Laurent] — 20:27, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes, if you take չորս out, it would be Սեղանին կան գրքեր։ (Sełanin kan grkʿer.). This will confuse you even more, but I have to tell you: some authorities claim that if there is an adjective between the number and the noun, plural should be used, e.g. Սեղանին կա չորս գիրք։ (Sełanin ka čʿors girkʿ.) but Սեղանին կան չորս հետաքրքիր գրքեր։ (Sełanin kan čʿors hetakʿrkʿir grkʿer.). Others dispute this.
Իմ եղբայրները կանայք ունեն։ (Im ełbayrnerə kanaykʿ unen.), ունենալ (unenal, to have) requires nominative. --Vahag (talk) 20:43, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Lol getting cases right in Armenian is harder than Lithuanian.... Which actually gives me another question. In Lithuanian most direct objects use accusative, but if the sentence is negative you use genitive instead. Does Armenian do anything like that, or would our married brothers' sentence just change to Իմ եղբայրները կանայք չունեն։ (Im ełbayrnerə kanaykʿ čʿunen.)? — [Ric Laurent] — 21:34, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Իմ եղբայրները կանայք չունեն։ (Im ełbayrnerə kanaykʿ čʿunen.) is right. We don't change stuff because of negative like some puny Lithuanian. --Vahag (talk) 21:38, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha thank God.... I'm gonna control myself for now, but I'll probably have more questions for you before too long lol. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:04, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Bring it on, I don't mind. --Vahag (talk) 22:05, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
All right, I've got a little one for an example sentence lol. Ես ուզում եմ հարբել, բայց <բուխլո> չունեմ։ Two things: "բուխլո" lol; and is there a word that translates as "any" where the English sentence would be "I haven't got any...", or can the negative stand by itself? — [Ric Laurent] — 22:16, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Ես ուզում եմ հարբել, բայց ընդհանրապես խմիչք չունեմ։ I don't know a slang equivalent of бухло, I'm a nice boy :) --Vahag (talk) 22:32, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
ընդհանրապես (əndhanrapes) is such a long word lol... It's in a song I know, but I can't remember the rest of the context. We don't have any pages that link to it but a frequency list. — [Ric Laurent] — 23:12, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
It's long, that's why colloquially we always use Russian вообще (voobšče). --Vahag (talk) 08:23, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
վափշե gets a pretty good amount of Google hits, should it be mentioned on ընդհանրապես (əndhanrapes) with the IPA for noobz? Thanks for making the entry, by the way, the example sentences are great. :) — [Ric Laurent] — 13:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I added several informal spellings. It is disputable whether they pass CFI, they are only used informally on the Internet and never in durably-archived writing. --Vahag (talk) 16:22, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
As an anti-elitist, I'm happy with the fact that they're mentioned, even if we don't have entries for them lol — [Ric Laurent] — 16:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I decided to also become anti-elitist after some personal, first-hand experiences. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 20:23, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Anti-elitism is good, but purging the language from Russian parasite words is good. At least from the very basic vocabulary. We should expel զատո (zato) < зато (zato), դաժը (dažə) < даже (daže), տոյիսծ (toyisc) < то есть (to jestʹ), վոփշմ (vopʿšm) < в общем (v obščem), պռոստո (pṙosto) < просто (prosto), ծիլիվիզըռ (cilivizəṙ) < телевизор (televizor)... --Vahag (talk) 20:30, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
(I have to unindent because my brain can't read narrow columns for some reason)
Armenian needs a word for "both" lol. You should write a book teaching Armenians to speak Armenian instead of Russoarmenian :) — [Ric Laurent] — 19:09, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
The trend is unfortunately in the other direction with us being drawn into the evil Eurasian Union. By the way, I was watching the Colbert Report the other day and saw a guy named Alexis Ohanian, who is the founder of Reddit. Didn't know we invented Reddit. --Vahag (talk) 19:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
American youth ruin Reddit with their nonsense. I know there are some fabled parts of it that are cool, but the multitude of knownothings makes those parts like fountains of youth or something. Our education system creates utter retards. Thank God there are some who can make it through unscathed, think for themselves, and innovate like that, though. On the news today is drones as delivery systems for online shopping. Capitalism is fucking wonderful. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I've also heard that there are people who are unplugging from both cable TV AND Internet service as well. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:59, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Some new dictionaries online[edit]

Hi Vahagn, hope you are doing well and that you'll enjoy these two jewels. More to come soon... Հայերէն Գաւառական Բառարան and Բառարան Գանձարան Հայերէն Լեզուի. Best, Սէրուժ (talk) 10:27, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

It's great to finally have these in high-quality scan and easily searchable. I will refer to Գաւառական more often now. It was a pain in the ass looking for a word in Flib's inferior pdf version. I have linked our templates to Nayiri, Template:R:hy:Gayayean and Template:R:hy:Ačaṙean:1913.
On an unrelated note: as a frequent user of Nayiri the most important feature that's missing for me is the ability to know whether a certain headword exists in a certain dictionary. Right now I have to open each dictionary separately and check. --Vahag (talk) 10:59, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Vahagn, yes the list of headwords for each dictionary and whether a certain headword exists in a given dictionary are important features. We will have that in the future. Just released Արեւմտահայերենի բառարան (1991, Երեւան). Not sure how useful it will be for you, but it's an interesting one. Hope you're keeping warm out there :) Սէրուժ (talk) 08:25, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
I have Artem Sargsyan in print, but thanks for adding it. I have noticed I haven't opened once my print HAB, Malxaseancʿ, ŽHLBB, Ałayan since they appeared on Nayiri. Sargsyan's dictionary has influenced me in my decision to treat Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian under a single header in Wiktionary. Since it is a dictionary of all differences of Western Armenian from Eastern Armenian and has only 4000 entries compared to the ~150000 word stock of modern Armenian, it makes sense not to duplicate content for the rest of 146000 words.
I wish there was a dictionary of differences of Eastern Armenian from Western Armenian. Often I add a word to Wiktionary, like գազար (gazar), and do not know whether to tag it with an (Eastern Armenian) context label, because I cannot know whether you use it too.--Vahag (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Why don't you check Հայոց Լեզուի Նոր Բառարան printed in Beirut? It's definitely the most modern Western Armenian dictionary, and probably one of the best printed. Սէրուժ (talk) 08:52, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Also, I'm glad to hear someone actually using Nayiri so often that they don't need to use their print version of the same books. My goal was two-fold: (1) make dictionaries fast and efficient to use, and (2) make the dictionaries accessible to those who don't have it, or those who don't want to carry all of those books everywhere they go, even if they do have it. So thanks for sharing your anecdotal usage. Սէրուժ (talk) 08:58, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with you on EA and WA. In my experience I find people who are less educated or have read less to think that there is a large difference between WA and EA. The less they know, the more they think the two are different. And the converse is also true. Indeed, it is not so much WA vs EA, but 31+ dialects that we've had. But standard EA and WA are almost the same language with rather minor grammatical and word usage (vocabulary differences). The sound shifts are also interesting, and both have experienced them since antiquity, but WA sound shifts have become more pronounced over the last 300+ years as a result of greater interaction with Western European languages. Սէրուժ (talk) 09:02, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I do use HLNB, but a missing word is not yet a guarantee of it being an Eastern-Armenianism. The dictionary could simply be incomplete. The best way to go is searching for a word in a Western Armenian corpus, which does not yet exist. --Vahag (talk) 14:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
FYI -- Just released: Հայերէն Աշխարհաբար Լեզուի Լիակատար Բառարան, 1954-57, Հալէպ։ It's comprehensive in that it claims to contain the full vocabulary of both Eastern and Western Armenian. This is my last resort dictionary when I cannot find the word I'm looking for even in Մալխասեանց. Սէրուժ (talk) 10:01, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Very interesting dictionary, thank you. Western Armenian dictionaries printed in diaspora are generally unavailable in Armenia (except Kuyumjian). Nayiri is our only access to them. --Vahag (talk) 13:39, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I've got a good one[edit]

(I was going to try to say that in Armenian, but I couldn't figure out how to parse "a good one." Mek lav...Lav mek...Mi lav mek... Armenian has too many words for "one" lol) Anyway, I can never remember when nominatives are really accusatives and datives are really genitives, so I'll just ask you without trying to translate: "The guy whose sister you kissed when you were drunk is here and he doesn't look like he wants to play cards." — [Ric Laurent] — 19:39, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

"I've got a good one" is an untranslatable English folklore :) "Տղեն, ում քրոջը պաչեցիր խմած ժամանակ, ստեղ ա ու պատրաստվում ա ոտդ ոռիցդ պոկի։" I couldn't think of an exact idiomatic translation for the playing cards part. The one I gave you literally says "intents to rip off your leg from your ass". --Vahag (talk) 19:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha I guess Armenians don't much use that sort of indirect but evident phrasing? I'll probably do that a lot anyway, because it's fun... lol — [Ric Laurent] — 20:08, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Translating idioms is the hardest part for me because I am not familiar with the rich phraseology of my language. It is shameful. --Vahag (talk) 20:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I think part of what adds to it is that sometimes English uses stuff that looks idiomatic but it's really just kind of unclear. Like, I think the playing card things might be a relatively common way of saying what I did, but only because card playing is so common. I could just as easily have said "and he doesn't look like he wants to shake your hand" or "and he doesn't look like he wants to invite you over to meet the family." Maybe linguists have a name for the kind of sentence I did, but knowing what that name is would do us no good lol. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:16, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Oh, the end of the sentence reminds me. Կարող լինել, is the supporting verb subjunctive, infinitive, either/or depending on circumstance? — [Ric Laurent] — 20:12, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Normatively it supports the infinite: կարող ես ուտել (karoł es utel, you can eat). Colloquially it supports the subjunctive: կարող ես ուտես (karoł es utes, you can eat). This is very common and used even by educated speakers who do not know it's sub-standard. --Vahag (talk) 20:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Armenian is surprisingly challenging lol... Most languages I know that have a subjunctive use it for that. I was just crying to my friend about wanting Jasmine Dum-Tragut's grammar but not wanting to spend so much money on it. Studying awesome languages is expensive. But I do really need to get that. If I read it I could waste a lot less of your time and ask you more important stuff :D — [Ric Laurent] — 20:30, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I've read 66 pages of Dum-Tragut now and it is full of errors. Be careful! There is another Western grammar, Kozintseva, Modern Eastern Armenian. It is available on pirate websites and looks more professional. --Vahag (talk) 20:34, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I actually already have a PDF of Dum-Tragut, but I'm a purist about books lol. I like being able to flip through, put in bookmarks, highlight shit. I know you can do a lot of that stuff with PDFs now, but it's still hollow. Hard to follow. But I did add Kozintseva to my list of stuff to acquire. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:16, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones/av[edit]

This redlinked cat has a good two dozen entries in it that might need looking over. Thought I'd inform you, since I don't know who else would have Avar resources. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:36, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

It's empty now. Different editors use different transliteration schemes. --Vahag (talk) 19:50, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Thankeesah! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:53, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Sure. The only thing left is to clean up gargantuan Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones/hy and Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones/ka caused by a shift in transliteration scheme. A bot should simply remove all transliterations for hy and ka.--Vahag (talk) 19:55, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Все части речи для весь[edit]

Привет, Вааг, приглашаю тебя поучаствовать в обсуждении Wiktionary:Requests_for_cleanup#весь. Если есть мнения или дополнительная информация, пожалуйста сообщи. CC: Стив Смит. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:04, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


You seem to have inadvertently messed up the entry. I restored it to the last good point AFAICT. I tried not to remove anything good that you added (I left the hu translation), but you might want to check. DCDuring TALK 20:55, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Conrad's tool is misbehaving. --Vahag (talk) 07:10, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to take that out of context and giggle incessantly, like a Japanese schoolgirl. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:58, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
I knew you'd interpret it that way, pervert :) --Vahag (talk) 16:00, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm so predictable you could write my responses yourself :D — [Ric Laurent] — 14:08, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Searching for template-generated content[edit]

[1] - I tried it and it doesn't work. What do I have to enable for it to work? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Go to "Beta Features" in your Preferences and enable "New search". --Vahag (talk) 14:31, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
It works! Thanks. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:44, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
It can even find content created few seconds ago. --Vahag (talk) 15:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

fun is evil[edit]

You know the rules, Vahagn: no fun allowed ever. --Æ&Œ (talk) 06:07, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

No, Pilcrow. It's not allowed to you. I have an official license to have fun. I'm like the 007 of trickstery. --Vahag (talk) 16:10, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Bah, you only got it because you are Armenian. If you were a straight white man, they would permablock you. Damn liberal elites are ruining Geektionary. --Æ&Œ (talk) 20:14, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Liberal elites ruin everything. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Guys, stop watching Fox News. --Vahag (talk) 22:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
But if I watch msnbc they'll just call me a racist misogynist homophobe bigot all day and I just can't deal with that. :'( Besides I have a crush on like half the hosts at Fox. — [Ric Laurent] — 03:10, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Mmm-hmmmm. Stossel's porn mustache is sexy. --Vahag (talk) 13:22, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
That thing probably controls him. I've actually got one of his books lol.
I think my favorite is that adorable libertarian munchkin Greg Gutfeld. Humor is arousing. — [Ric Laurent] — 16:16, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


I've hijacked the context label "post-Classical" and made it available to Ancient Greek as well as Old Armenian......and those other languages too. I'm pretty sure it should now treat Old Armenian uses identically to how it did before. I apologize if this causes you any problems. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:16, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I originally had it as language agnostic too, but then I changed my mind. I don't remember why. The change is fine by me. --Vahag (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Some random questions[edit]

Hi Vahag, does Armenian differentiate between a normal g and a palatalized one ([gʲ])? I'm just curious to know where does the յ (y) in դարգյահ (dargyah) come from, درگاه is pronounced [dæɾgɒːh], and it has another form (درگه) pronounced [dæɾgʲæh], so maybe դարգյահ (dargyah) form is from the latter. BTW, is the second a in sparapet an inner Armenian development? Also, is d > r a regular sound change here (I guess I've seen d > r change in several other loanwords in Armenian)? Just want to make sure if this (saying that սպարապետ is from spādpat) is ok. --Z 07:42, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Z. Thanks for the interesting questions. Old Armenian and the dialects of Ararat Plain and Constantinople on which two varieties of modern literary Armenian are based do not have palatalized consonants, but the dialects of Karabakh, Agulis, Van, Kharberd and Maragha do have them. [dæɾgʲæh] fits perfectly for դարգյահ (dargyah). Other cases with a -յ- (-y-) in Persian-borrowed terms are գյազար (gyazar) vs گزر (gazar), քյալամ (kʿyalam) vs کلم (kalam), դազգյահ (dazgyah) vs some by-form of دستگاه (dastgâh). I assume in all cases -յ- (-y-) reflects Persian palatalization.
Jahukyan reconstructs Iranian *spāδ(a)pet for սպարապետ (sparapet), which means it is possible the second -a- is an inner-Armenian development (I think smart people call this “analogical leveling”) — սպար (spar) is “Armenian”, պետ (pet) is “Armenian” and Armenian words should be connected with the interfix -ա- (-a-). d > r is not regular but δ > r is. As far as I know, Parthian contrasted plosive b, d, g with fricative β, δ, γ. I don't know if there is difference in orthography, but in transcription the difference should be indicated. Note how Boyce 1977, page 22, transcribes Parthian ʿspʾd as [ispāδ]. Périkhanian quotes attested Inscriptional Parthian spʾdpty, which should be transcribed with a -δ- to accommodate Armenian. Or even better, it should not be transcribed without a serious modern source. Even Périkhanian does not venture reconstruction, she simply says “cf. Parthian spʾdpty”. She doesn't even claim սպարապետ (sparapet) is from that specific attested spelling.
The determination of which Iranian language and in which period yielded a given Armenian word is a very difficult and ongoing task. There are different periods of Parthian, early and late Middle Persian, Old Median, Périkhanian's "Middle Median", some Old Persian and even some Eastern Iranian elements of unknown origin, perhaps Scythian or "Parnian". I suggest we tread very carefully and like Jahukyan get away with general statements such as "an Iranian borrowing, compare Parthian this, Middle Persian that..." unless we have some modern source claiming an exact origin. --Vahag (talk) 19:54, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your explanation, the -յ- (-y-) case was interesting. You are quite right that we should not transcribe that word (yes post-vocalic OIr. /d/ yields Parth. /δ/, there are evidences that /d/ and /δ/ merged into one sound [/d/ or /δ/] later; also those voiceless stops became voiced, these changes happened separately, so it's quite hard to transcribe such Parth. word exactly). --Z 09:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

locusta etymology[edit]

That's really excellent work; thank you very much for it. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:19, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Sure, no problem. I have good sources. --Vahag (talk) 00:37, 18 January 2014 (UTC)


Կարող եք մասնակցել այս քվեարկությանը: --Vadgt (talk) 19:07, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Module talk:columns[edit]

Do you have any input here, since you're the one that requested the feature? DTLHS (talk) 19:35, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


Thanks for the helpful feedback in your edit summary on Բարաք. I still think that it shouldn't be listed as being "from English", even if the direct source is an individual from an English-speaking country, simply because it's not an English name. Imagine if the next US President was named Gagik, and that this caused a spike in the name's popularity in, I don't know, Japan. Should the Japanese spelling be categorised in "Japanese given names from English"? I would think "from Armenian" would be more appropriate. -- Perey (talk) 12:25, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

I have removed "from English" but did not replace it with "from Hebrew" because I'm not sure the name is ultimately from Hebrew and not Arabic. The etymology still says "from English", because we certainly learned about the name and transliterated it into Armenian from English, not its Semitic source. PS I like the idea of president Gagik. Kim Kardashian could then be his vice-president. --Vahag (talk) 15:49, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Regarding shahanshah, شاهنشاه and شاهان‌شاه[edit]

  1. My name is not Kenneth, as in the history of شاهان‌شاه.
  2. What makes you determine that shahanshah is from شاهنشاه instead of شاهان‌شاه?
  3. If شاهنشاه is a short form of شاهان‌شاه, why isn't the information put on شاهان‌شاه instead?

--kc_kennylau (talk) 11:54, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

  1. I don't like short names. You're Kenneth from now on.
  2. OED says from šāhanšāh, not šāhānšāh.
  3. The information is put at the most common spelling created first, which is شاهنشاه. --Vahag (talk) 12:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
  1. I am never Kenneth.
  2. I cannot find the respective entry from OED.
  3. How do you know which is more common?
--kc_kennylau (talk) 12:07, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
  1. Kenneth, Kenneth, Kenneth.
  2. OED is Oxford English Dictionary.
  3. I compare 463,000 Google hits to 6,490 hits. Search with quote marks. --Vahag (talk) 12:17, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Nishanyan Template[edit]

There is a discussion on your Nishanyan Template at Wikipedia. May you can explain your decision for making this template to use it as a reliable source. --2A02:908:E621:8BE0:F8A4:4828:6C73:A598 22:25, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Этимология прилагательного ցամաք[edit]

Привет, Вааг! Я заметил, что в статье о ցամաք есть ссылки, которые говорят о заимствовании из сирийского языка. Сегодня я встретил это прилагательное (хоть и в необычной транслитерации) в словаре Уленбека (1898), где оно связывается (точное выражение: «Man vergleicht [...]») с санскритским словом क्षाम (kṣāmá), сожжённый. Среди источников есть такой, который упоминает возможное индоевропейское происхождение (родство с क्षाम ), хоть и с предостережением, но как возможный вариант? (К сожалению я не могу читать на армянском.) The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 13:15, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Привет, Богорм! Когда писал этимологию ցամաք (cʿamakʿ), источником имел только Ачаряна. Я сейчас дополнил и расширил этимологию на основании новых работ. Сравненние с санскритским क्षाम (kṣāmá, versengt, ausgedörrt) идёт с Bugge 1889 и принято в Pokorny 1959 и J̌ahukyan 1987, 2010. Hübschmann 1897 считает сравнение "unsicher", а Мартиросян вовсе не принимает и предпочитает родство с क्षम् (kṣám-, земля). --Vahag (talk) 18:03, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Спасибо. Еще один вопрос в связи с другой этимологией. В том же словаре в этимологии санскр. चन्द् (cand-) указано армянское слово с транслитерацией šand и значением Blitz (молния). Я нашел շանթ с тем же значением, но у него -թ . Есть армянское или древнеармянское слово *շանդ или это опечатка и շանթ искомое слово? Самое интересное, что в словаре дано еще два значения армянского родственного слова: искра (Funke) и накаленное железо (glühender Eisen), поэтому я предположил, что есть другое слово (кроме շանթ). The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 19:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
շանթ (šantʿ) искомое слово. У него есть вариант շանդ (šand). На днях напишу этимологию—у Мартиросяна есть большое обсуждение на эту тему. --Vahag (talk) 16:24, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Было сложно, но я это сделал. Смотри обзор этимологий в շանթ (šantʿ). В твоем словаре отражена гипотеза Бугге. Ссылке в списке литературы. --Vahag (talk) 20:31, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you![edit]

Thanks so much for your edits! I know it's a lot of work, so thank you for putting up with me. :) Arax (talk) 06:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

No, thank you. You're doing the part I hate the most—translating from Armenian into English. Adding pronunciation, inflection and etymology is fun. Keep up the good work. By the way, are you translating Ananyan now? --Vahag (talk) 07:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Glad to hear we're each doing the part we like best! :) Who's Ananyan? I translate mostly (or only) literature. Arax (talk) 05:41, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Vakhtang Ananyan, the writer. I usually find the words you add in his work when I search the Eastern Armenian corpus. I'm asking, because if you're translating a literary work you could add quotations from it. See for example շահնշահ, մուճակ, պաղպաղակ. Quotations are very useful. --Vahag (talk) 15:05, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Ah, I see. I don't usually get the words from the works I'm translating; I get them from works I'm reading. :) I could add quotations if it helps the meaning of the word. I've added "collocations" where relevant. Arax (talk) 09:47, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Repeating content[edit]

Hi Vahagn,

I realised you deleted my etymology on абажур. I understand that most of this information is contained elsewhere on wiktionary, but the information compiled in that etymology was taken from at least 5 different sources (including the information on cognates which didn't exist anywhere else). It took me some time to find it all. Anyway I have deleted the information about proto languages (I suggest that the Latin etymology is adjusted to include this information) but restored the link to the Russian article журнал and cognates.

Thanks,--Itsacatfish (talk) 19:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Czech abažúr and Polish abażur are not cognates of Russian абажур (abažur) as we understand "cognates" on Wiktionary. Cognates are inherited from the same proto-language, e.g. Russian брат (brat) and Czech bratr. Abažúr and abażur are no more relevant to the Russian page than Georgian აბაჟური (abažuri). I am going to move them to the list of descendants of French abat-jour.
I am also going to remove your links to beatan and журнал (žurnal). This is not Russian Wiktionary. The etymology of the French word should be treated on the French page, not its Russian descendant. Журнал (Žurnal) can be listed as a Related term.
If you have etymological information that is not anywhere on Wiktionary, you need to find place it at the correct page. --Vahag (talk) 20:17, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for clearing all that up! That was a very helpful comment actually, even if you seem rather annoyed with me :) --Itsacatfish (talk) 20:31, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
I am not annoyed. It's just I've sworn to fight duplication till my last breath.
Your contributions are of high quality but there are some formatting errors. Keep an eye on your watchlist while I fix some of them. --Vahag (talk) 20:35, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


Hi Vahagn, since it seems you know how to/have permission to move articles, please could you move my article oбаим to обаим (my entry is written with an English "o"!) Thanks, --Itsacatfish (talk) 17:33, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I just did. You can probably do it too. To the left of the search box there is a downward facing triangle. The "Move" command is there. --Vahag (talk) 17:40, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Your opinion on PIE *tele[edit]

User_talk:Hirabutor#Appendix:Proto-Indo-European.2Ftele - Hirabutor (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2014 (UTC)


I split the two meanings because they are rather distinct, and it's not really clear how they could be unified under one root. Other sources I found (Philippa 2009, De Vaan 2008) said similar things. —CodeCat 18:32, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the splitting. Pokorny splits the meanings too, but lists sūtīt (to send) and sių̃sti (to send) under the meaning “to go”, which makes sense. --Vahag (talk) 18:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

pronunciation of ոյ[edit]

Hi Vahagn, As far as I know, in traditional Armenian orthography, ոյ is pronounced "uy" when it occurs between two consonants -- e.g. լոյս (looys), բոյս (booys), etc. Can you educate me on what the reason for transliterating լոյս as loys here? thanks. Սէրուժ (talk) 09:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Serouj. We use the Hübschmann-Meillet-Benveniste transliteration system which is based on the pronunciation of Old Armenian (Grabar). լոյս (loys) was pronounced /lojs/ and that is reflected in the transliteration scheme. --Vahag (talk) 09:49, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Right, my question is that is it true that in Grabar it's pronounced /lojs/ and not "lujs"? Grabar is literary language -- we know today that լոյս is pronounced /lujs/ (in Eastern and Western Armenian) and this has been the case for quite some time, so if (at all) լոյս was pronounced /lojs/ when was this, and at what time did it change to /lujs/? (Frankly, it's the first time I'm hearing that լոյս was pronounced /lojs/ in early times.) Սէրուժ (talk)
In the 5th century Grabar was pronounced as it was written. Mesrop's alphabet was very precise. So արքայ (arkʿay) was pronounced like /arkʰaj/ and յարութիւն (yarutʿiwn) something like /jarutʰiwn/. I have uploaded an extract from Godel's book on the diphthong ոյ (oy) here. Old Armenian ոյ (oy) was a diphthong or quasi-diphthong pronounced as /oj/ or /oi̯/ in the Classical period. It is inherited from Proto-Armenian *ou and that from Proto-Indo-European *ew and *ow. So PIE *lewkos > Old Armenian լոյս (loys). I don't know when exactly after the 5th century its pronunciation turned to /uj/.
In any case, as opposed to transcription, transliteration is based on the spelling, not actual pronunciation. It is a mechanical letter-by-letter substitution process. It doesn't matter that in modern Armenian դեղաբոյս (dełaboys) is pronounced [dɛʁɑˈbujs]. So even in modern Armenian it needs to be transliterated as dełaboys.
I don't give pronunciations for Old Armenian as there are many unclear issues (as you note, it is a dead, literary language). For modern Armenian the pronunciation is given in a separate section using IPA. --Vahag (talk) 11:24, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Got it. Thanks for taking the time to explain the reasoning Vahagn. Սէրուժ (talk) 19:41, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Sure, no problem. --Vahag (talk) 19:42, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Difference in word kind[edit]


I wondered whether you could tell me what the difference is between слышимый and слышный. Is it that the latter is a passive word and the latter 'merely' an adjective? I have no idea how to call these things. Thanks 10:31, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there is a nuance in meaning. The difference is etymological—слышимый is a passive participle, слышный is an adjective. --Vahag (talk) 10:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, that is what I meant! 15:00, 24 April 2014 (UTC)


....has some documentation and new features which might ever so slightly erode at the ever-present despair. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:05, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Слогоделение, простановка знака ударения в русском[edit]

Привет, Вааг,

Ты знаешь что-нибудь о русском слогоделении и постановке знаков ударения (место) в МФА (IPA)? Если что-нибудь знаешь, подскажи, пожалуйста в Module_talk:ru-pron/testcases#Exceptions identified. Стив, приглашаю и тебя тоже к обсуждению. Что вы думаете о том, как сделан украинский модуль? Например в слове "виногра́д" ударение поставлено вот так /ʋenɔɦrˈɑd/. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:53, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Привет, Анатолий. К сожалению ничего не знаю о русском слогоделении. /ʋenɔɦrˈɑd/ наверняка неправильно. Я заставил Штамбука изменить это поведение в Module:hy-pronunciation. Там модуль находит первое согласное перед ударным гласным и ставит ударение перед ним. --Vahag (talk) 07:57, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Спасибо, Вааг. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:16, 30 May 2014 (UTC) database[edit]

Sorry, nobody said that before. --Hirabutor (talk) 22:16, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, a certain sexy Armenian said exactly that before. --Vahag (talk) 22:20, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry again, I really forgot it :) --Hirabutor (talk) 22:28, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
I forgive you. --Vahag (talk) 22:32, 14 June 2014 (UTC)


Can you review my edits? I got three failing test cases to pass, but I am not sure whether there are cases in which these changes might have broken something. Keφr 09:38, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

The first failing tests are fixed for good, thank you, but the problem with the last one is not just sˈt → ˈst. It is that #CˈCV- should be #ˈCCV-. Likewise #CCˈCV- → #ˈCCCV-, where # means word-initial, C is consonant and V is vowel.
Thanks for taking interest. Would you be willing to work with me on expanding the module? Nothing hard like Module:ru-pron. --Vahag (talk) 10:16, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Changed it so that the stress mark is moved before an arbitrary number of initial consonants. Keφr 10:26, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, it is fixed. Thanks! --Vahag (talk) 10:48, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

New dictionaries[edit]

Հայերեն Ստուգաբանական Բառարան. Enjoy :) Սէրուժ (talk) 06:17, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! I edited our template to link to Nayiri. --Vahag (talk) 10:57, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

A vocabulary of words used in modern Armenian but not found in the ancient Armenian lexicons. Small little dictionary. As far as I know, it's the first dictionary in աշխարհաբար. Interesting, at least from a historical perspective. Սէրուժ (talk) 03:02, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Cool. I updated Template:R:hy:Riggs. But it is by no means the first ashkharabar dictionary. For example, Rivola 1633 and the Բառգիրք Յաշխարհաբառէ ի Գրաբառն part of HHB 1769 also are ashkharabar. The Դուռն Քերականութան Աշխարհաբառ Լեզեւին Հայոց 1727 by Մխիթար Սեբաստացի has an ashkharabar vocabulary as well. --Vahag (talk) 07:12, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Հայոց Լեզվի Դարձվածաբանական Բառարան. Not sure if you are using this one yet Vahagn, but I think you might in the future. Սէրուժ (talk) 19:57, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm not doing idioms on Wiktionary yet, because translating them into English is a pain in the ass. But the dictionary is very popular. I recall folk asking for it on Մայրենի լեզվի դասեր many times.
Please do Amatuni 1912 next :) --Vahag (talk) 07:39, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
OK Vahag, I made a note of your request. It will be released later this month. What do you think of the 7-volume Հայոց Լեզվի Բարբառային Բառարան, Հրաչյա Աճառյանի Անվան Լեզվի Ինստիտուտ (2001-2012)? Which would you like to have first? Սէրուժ (talk) 08:12, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
The 7-volume dialectological dictionary was supposed to be a monumental embodiment of all Armenian dialectological material collected by the Academy linguists since 1966. But due to Artem Sargsyan's sloppy editing we have a dumbed down, unprofessional work, which is quite important because of its unparalleled scope but is insufficient from the academic standpoint. Also, I have all of it in print, unlike Amatuni, so do Amatuni first :) --Vahag (talk) 08:59, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
OK, will do. Yes, especially the last volume is extremely sloppy. There are whole chunks of works that are even misordered / misplaced in the dictionary (especially the last volume). There are words several pages off. Nonetheless, it's somewhat interesting. Another downside is that it has very inconsistent spelling, which means that a spell-checker is needed (along with fully digitized headwords). Սէրուժ (talk) 15:48, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Feel free to make a list of idioms so you could look at them later. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 08:24, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Հայոց Բառ ու Բան, Սահակ վարդապետ Ամատունի։ Տպարան Մայր Աթոռոյ ս. Էջմիածնի, Վաղարշապատ, 1912։ As promised. Enjoy. Սէրուժ (talk) 02:24, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I just went through it: a magnificent work, thank you.
I have another idea for you. The Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia has been scanned with high quality. Moreover, the publisher has released it under the Creative Commons BY-SA 3.0. You can add it to Nayiri. --Vahag (talk) 14:32, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Good idea. It's on my to-do list but I considered it a low priority. I'll try to release it during the 2nd half of next year... Thanks for the suggestion. Սէրուժ (talk) 02:38, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Միջին Հայերենի Բառարան, Ռուբեն Սերոբի Ղազարյան եւ Հենրիկ Միսակի Ավետիսյան։ Երեւանի Պետական Համալսարանի Հրատարակչություն, Երեւան, 2009։ I think this is very interesting and of great value. I wasn't too fond of the printing, even though the book was brand new. If you have a copy of this book, can you please check the quality -- in particular pay attention to the letters բ, զ, գ and դ։ Are they difficult to read in your versions? For mine, a few lines in those letters repeatedly are too thin and often missing. I think they chose a bad font. Please let me know. I might need to acquire another copy of it. Thanks. Սէրուժ (talk) 02:36, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

As an example, please check page 15. Ադովնայութիւն... Սէրուժ (talk) 02:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
By virtue of being the only published dictionary of Middle Armenian it is indeed very valuable and actively used in in Wiktionary (BTW, Josef Karst's unpublished dictionary is currently being edited). However, in quality and scale it does not come close to what NHB is for Old Armenian. Read this scathing review.
I noticed the problem with բ, զ, գ and դ long ago, it's not your copy. This is very annoying. Sometimes I have to check the spelling in the first edition (which is 99.99% identical with the second edition). --Vahag (talk) 08:24, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the details. I have multiple scans of 2 different copies of the first edition (printing isn't great, but the font I remember was legible). So this gives me good reason to add those to the site, possibly 2nd part of next year. I can't stand having a dictionary on the site that has illegible pages... And it's outright shameful that we are experiencing quality problems in a book printed in 2009! (I don't want to get in to the problems I'm having with the 7-volume Բառբարային բառարան... I seemed to have a copy of a copy of the first volume and it was being peddled as an original.) Սէրուժ (talk) 08:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm glad you're paying close attention to quality. Nayiri's scans are impeccable.
I know your bookseller Garik. He sometimes sneakily peddles photocopies. As for the quality of books, I think they have gone down since 1991. I hate the Soviet Empire, but they knew how to print a book. --Vahag (talk) 09:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Հայոց Լեզվի Բարբառային Բառարան, Հրաչյա Աճառյանի Անվան Լեզվի Ինստիտուտ։ ՀՀ Գիտությունների Ազգային Ակադեմիա, Երեւան, 2001-2012։ Սէրուժ (talk) 06:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

All of the pages are legible, but I suspect I still have used copies for volumes 2, 4, and 6. They're not too bad though. Volume 1 was pretty bad, but I did manage to find an original. A lot of times you never know the quality until after you scan it (or you forget to look when buying :) ). Սէրուժ (talk) 06:03, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
You're on fire, Serouj :) I linked our template to Nayiri.
I don't think you were given copies. I compared this page with my print volume and the quality is the same. Its the relatively low quality of the print. I have printed small brochures in Yerevan before and some of them looked just like that. --Vahag (talk) 09:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for checking with your copies, especially on that particular page. I was wondering about that jumbled nonsense characters; that's not an issue of print quality, per se, but of the encoding or fonts on the digital copy. I'm certain volume 2 that I have is not an original, because after I found an original copy at the local library here to replace the bad pages I found in my copy, I realized that the bad pages were the result of bad scanning. For example, have a look at page 212 of volume 2. here is what an original copy should look like. And here is what a scanned-then-printed copy would look like (notice the bad scan on the left column under լեզուն առնվել). Also, the original's printing is far more crisp; to see this, you can switch between the two scans quickly by hitting the number 1 or 4 key on your keyboard, respectively. BTW, had you noticed this feature of switching between scans? I need to do a better job of documenting some of these otherwise hidden features. Սէրուժ (talk) 17:59, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I confirm, copy (4) is much better and looks exactly like my print copy. The hieroglyphs on page 191 are "îÎȲÜæÆ", which is ՏԿԼԱՆՋԻ (TKLANJ̌I) in w:ARMSCII. I didn't know I could switch between the scan versions with a keypad, but honestly I almost never switch scans.
You once said it wouldn't be too hard linking to a specific page in a dictionary by feeding the browser a URL with the page number in it (I mean the actual print page, not Nayiri's internal one). Can this be done? This is important for ՀԱԲ, where the referenced page may be far from the page on which the headword first appears. Obviously, the URL will have to take in also the volume number. --Vahag (talk) 20:10, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Oh, thanks for deciphering the hieroglyphics :) I will retouch that page and update it online. There are also hieroglyphs on pages 218 and 236; have you deciphered those, too? Also, there are print issues on page 384 and 385. Can you let me know what the missing characters are in your copy? I will retouch these too and update those pages. BTW, how does your volume 6 print quality look like compared to what's now online? Thanks a lot... Սէրուժ (talk) 20:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
The one on page 218 should be ՏՈՆԻÎ > ՏՈՆԻԿ; and on page 236 Ôñµ > Ղրբ. I have uploaded pages 384 and 385 here. My volume 6 looks exactly like yours, apart from those two pages. --Vahag (talk) 21:08, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for the data... All 5 pages from volume 6 noted above have been fixed. Սէրուժ (talk) 02:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Funny I was thinking about that today, especially with ՀԱԲ and now the 7-volume ՀԼԲԲ. Yes, it's relatively easy to do. I'll try to implement that in the next few days; there will be two new parameters in the URL, probably: "printPage" and "volume" Սէրուժ (talk) 20:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Hi Vahagn, I just added support for the two new parameters "printPage" and "volume" for use on Imaged Dictionaries. "volume" is optional and will default to 1 if not specified. For "printPage", in addition to supporting decimal numbers ([0-9]+) you can also specify Roman Numerals (i, ii, ... xi, ...) and Armenian Numerals (Ա, Բ, ... ԻԱ, ...) as needed depending on the dictionary. For example:
The 201st page of the 3rd volume of Մալխասեանց: printPage=201&volume=3
The ԺԹ (19th) page of the 1st volume of Մալխասեանց: printPage=ԺԹ&volume=1.
The XVI (16th) page of the 1st volume of ՆՀԲ: printPage=xvi&volume=1.
The Դ (4th) page of Գաւառական Բառարան: printPage=Դ (note that volume is omitted).
The XVIII page of Գաւառական Բառարան: printPage=xviii (note that a given dictionary may have more than one -- i.e. two or three -- types of page numberings).
The 25th page of Գաւառական Բառարան: printPage=25 Սէրուժ (talk) 23:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for adding the functionality. I have edited Template:R:xcl:HAB to support direct page-linking. --Vahag (talk) 09:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Dictionnaire Arménien-Français (1926). Probably the best Armenian-French dictionary printed as yet. You might likely find it useful. Սէրուժ (talk) 10:22, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, did not know such a dictionary existed. With so many dictionaries now on Nayiri, the feature of somehow highlighting the ones containing the searched headword becomes more pressing. --Vahag (talk) 14:51, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree about the need for that feature. Hopefully that will be available sometime next year. Still have about 30 important dictionaries to add to the site :) .Սէրուժ (talk) 00:01, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Dictionnaire français-arménien (Բառարան ֆրանսերէնէ-Հայերէն). Among the best French-Armenian dictionaries. This was originally published in 1896. The 1930 edition "modernized" it by removing some entries (as I understood it in the introduction) many years after the death of the author. I think very useful, along with Lusignan's French-Armenian dictionary (to be released next week) and Manuel Kajuni's 2-volume scientific encyclopedic dictionary (to be released next year). Let me know if these are useful to you. Best wishes, Սէրուժ (talk) 07:07, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, they are useful for tracking neologisms. By the way, I have discovered Kajuni digitized by Harvard here. I managed to download it in good quality and make two pdf volumes ~900 MB each. Let me know if you need it. --Vahag (talk) 08:47, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Vahag, yes, that would be nice to get Kajuni. Did you lose any image quality (e.g. JPEG compression) while downloading / converting to PDF? That would be good to have. I also plan to photo-scan that dictionary (a long & arduous process -- which by the way I already did for the Chakhchakian dictionary that will also be released next year). In any case, it's good to have a second copy and something I can work with now, and the Harvard scan looks pretty good. Let me know how I can obtain it from you. Սէրուժ (talk) 08:58, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I uploaded the files to my Google Drive and shared the link with you via email. I did not lose quality in downloading .jpg files. I then used Adobe Acrobat XI's default conversion settings, which, I think, involves some compression. I did not keep the .jpg files. I have also uploaded a .djvu version created by me using FineReader. --Vahag (talk) 10:50, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Հայ-Ռուսերեն Բառարան, Հրաչյա Աճառյանի Անվան Լեզվի Ինստիտուտ։ Հայկական ՍՍՀ Գիտությունների Ակադեմիայի Հրատարակչություն, Երեւան, 1987։ Might be useful. Սէրուժ (talk) 12:29, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • May be not for Wiktionary purposes, but in real life in Armenia that dictionary is very important. We need to translate from Armenian into Russian all the time. Professionally I use the one you just posted and {{R:hy:Polytechnic}}. --Vahag (talk) 13:33, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Perfect. My goal is to be useful to people. So hopefully this will help you and others in Armenia professionally. Also, the second dictionary you mention is next on my list for ru-hy dictionaries. It will be released soon, too. Սէրուժ (talk) 17:14, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Where were you yesterday, I was translating a technical text from Russian :) Nice work, serious people need this dictionary. --Vahag (talk) 15:40, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Good catch, thanks! Սէրուժ (talk) 22:04, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Հայերեն Ուղղագրական-Ուղղախոսական-Տերմինաբանական Բառարան (1973). Finally got this out the door! It was a very painful dictionary to work on... I had to use 3 different copies, each scanned 3 different ways. Hope you make good use of it. Best wishes for the holidays. Սէրուժ (talk) 00:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
    Thanks! I linked {{R:hy:HUB}} to Nayiri. The quality is fine. On {{R:hy:Ačaṙean:1902}} too I prefer your scans to Flib's on every single page. I think the default should be your scan. By the way, don't pay attention to Vahram Mekhitarian’s grumpiness. He has a personal feud with Barseghyan. PS It is normative in Eastern Armenian of Armenia to capitalize only the first word in the title, so «Հայերեն ուղղագրական-ուղղախոսական, տերմինաբանական բառարան»։ PPS. Happy holidays to you too! --Vahag (talk) 11:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
Only a small percentage (about 12%) of the pages are from the FLib's copy. I thought they were easy to read than the copy I had, even though their scans aren't good, their physical copy of the book had better print on those particular pages... I might revisit it in the future and replace even those once I find a second physical copy of the book. Right now I'm working on releasing Dizionario Armeno-Italiano (1837). The physical book is beautiful! :). Սէրուժ (talk) 00:57, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Բառգիրք Հայ եւ Իտալական (1837). Finally done with this one! Let me know what you think of the quality (they are 600dpi, which means on a Retina display it looks super-crisp). If there's a page that's slightly eligible, I've also included the original grayscale image at 1500 pixels across -- which is still about 300 dpi quality. Սէրուժ (talk) 20:46, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
    The quality is impeccable, thanks. As you appositely quoted Ačaṙyan, this dictionary is best for distinguishing various subsenses, my least favourite part of writing Wiktionary. It will be easier now. --Vahag (talk) 11:01, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
I thought Ajarian mentioned this dictionary twice in his introduction, but I only could find the first reference to it. Do you by any chance remember a second commentary, and its location? Thanks. Սէրուժ (talk) 16:53, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
I remember only one reference, the one you quoted. --Vahag (talk) 17:12, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Գրաբարի բառարան - Նոր հայկազյան բառարանում չվկայված բառեր (2010). This might also be useful. Let me know what you think. Սէրուժ (talk) 03:29, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
    It is indeed useful. I linked {{R:xcl:Hovhannisyan:2006}} to Nayiri. But even with that dictionary + NHB + AB, I still find Old Armenian words not included in any dictionary. --Vahag (talk) 07:45, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
    What about JB (Jakhjakhian)? It definitely has more words than NHB. What is AB? Առձե՞ռն Հայկազեան բառարան։ What do you suggest? Սէրուժ (talk) 07:51, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
    JB is good, but still incomplete. AB is indeed Առձեռն հայկազեան բառարան. Their compilers did not have all the published works in Old Armenian that we do now. I am not suggesting anything for Nayiri to do. We need to write a new complete online dictionary of Old Armenian. Actually, I'm doing it on Wiktionary at snail's pace. --Vahag (talk) 08:18, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  • English-Armenian dictionary (1984, Ասմանգուլյան). Finally released this one. Still a great dictionary; possibly the best modern one. I think you asked for this one, too. Սէրուժ (talk) 11:32, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
    I did ask for it, thanks. It is indeed probably the best modern one, perhaps even better than {{R:hy:Grigoryan:2010}}. By the way, the latter underwent a second edition recently. I have not perused it yet. --Vahag (talk) 11:45, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Բառգիրք արուեստից եւ գիտութեանց եւ գեղեցիկ դպրութեանց (des Arts, des Sciences et des Lettres) (1891-1892). Awesome dictionary... I think this was on your second list of must-haves. Enjoy!! Also, let me know that a new site feature is to support multiple indices per dictionary. So, for example, this dictionary has 3 indices: the main dictionary, an addendum, and an abridged Armenian-French dictionary. Each is now searchable by headword by selecting the "Ընտրել ցուցակը" drop-down menu beneath the "Փոխել բառարանը" option. Also, in some cases the dictionary is directly selectable from «Փոխել բառարանը" as is the case with the abridged Armenian-French dictionary. We will subsequently add secondary indices to all of the other dictionaries that have them... Let me know any particular ones that you'd like to see first and I'll try to prioritize for them. Thanks. Սէրուժ (talk) 11:22, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
    Thanks! I will definitely use Kajuni more often. The new feature is very useful. The indexes for the addenda in {{R:xcl:HAnB}}, {{R:hy:HTB}} and for the dialectal words' appendix in {{R:xcl:NHB}} are a priority. And don't forget to add indices for the list of proper nouns in many dictionaries eventually. With this new feature {{R:xcl:HHB}} should be easier. Another useful feature would be automatically selecting the index based on the script. This will not work everywhere, but Kajuni and {{R:hy:Polytechnic}} will work. Your site already can detect script, complaining "բառը օրինաւոր բառ մը չէ այս բառարանին համար։". --Vahag (talk) 19:17, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Good suggestions for secondary indices. Yes, this new feature was a requirement for {{R:xcl:HHB}} and I initially started programming it to support that very dictionary. With regards to auto-selecting the index, thank you for reminding me of that one. I wanted to do that but completely forgot about it. Great suggestion. Սէրուժ (talk) 20:48, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
I also forgot to mention the new feature of specifying the "index" number when specifying printPage. This is useful in your usage for the word ցողկ: volume=2&index=3&printPage=241. Սէրուժ (talk) 20:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, I was trying to figure that out. --Vahag (talk) 21:58, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Secondary indices for {{R:hy:HTB}} are now available: Մնացորդ եւ վերանվանված տեղանուններ and Ուղղված կամ ճշգրտված տեղանուններ. Սէրուժ (talk) 21:20, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Cool :) --Vahag (talk) 17:52, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Vahagn, the feature you requested for automatically selecting (where possible) the index based on script is now supported. For example, որձաքար in {{R:hy:Polytechnic}} as already linked at որձաքար now works, as would ցողկ for Kajuni. Would you mind adding search links to the Kajuni dictionary? They don't seem to be working (see the ցողկ article). Please let me know or remind me other features that you'd like. I'm going to work on adding secondary indices to the other dictionaries you mentioned above. Let me know other dictionaries you'd like me to prioritize. Thanks. Սէրուժ (talk) 23:56, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, that smoothens the user experience a lot. I added the links to the Kajuni template. I don't have priorities for appendices other than the above (perhaps the geographical/onomastic appendices of the ՋԲ). A small useful feature for me would be replacing the page number in Դէպի էջ՝ ցատկել with the print page number. I don't think many people use Nayiri's internal numbering system for navigation. A very big useful feature would be somehow marking the dictionaries which contain the searched headword. --Vahag (talk) 14:41, 5 July 2015 (UTC)


Seruzh is on a mission to purify Wiktionary of its icky example sentences, but I don't want to completely disadvantage perverted linguistic nerds. My Armenian is getting rusty again, so I need your help translating this: "When you think about կլիր your heart is open to the Devil. Do not think about կլիր or you risk damning your soul to the fires of Hell." I'll use the same with կլիր replaced for պուց‎. — [Ric Laurent] — 16:48, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Bud, you know I love you, but your example sentences sound stilted in Armenian. We don't talk like that! I had to replace your examples with actual quotes from newest literature.
This one would be "Երբ մտածում ես կլրի մասին, սիրտդ բացվում է սատանայի համար։ Մի՛ մտածիր կլրի մասին, թե չէ հոգիդ կդատապարտես դժոխքի խարույկներին։" --Vahag (talk) 09:49, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Armenians could talk like that if they got silly! Why so serious? :) — [Ric Laurent] — 10:52, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
We're not as comfortable with our sexuality as you are. But we're getting there, be patient :) --Vahag (talk) 16:27, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
My soul weeps for those poor Armenians who don't recognize the beauty of sex lol. — [Ric Laurent] — 16:30, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Mine too. --Vahag (talk) 16:58, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Armenian italic[edit]

Do you want to start a discussion about this too? I would support it. —CodeCat 14:15, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

No, no discussion is necessary, as we have a consensus. All of the Armenian contributor on Wiktionary agree we should italicize Armenian. --Vahag (talk) 14:20, 12 July 2014 (UTC)


Where did you find "donkey cucumber"? خر also means "big", beside "donkey", so it makes sense, but I'm not sure about the "cucumber" part. --Z 14:46, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I'll add the references and discussion shortly. --Vahag (talk) 14:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
OK, I have added my sources, which were Horn and Vasmer. But then I found an extensive treatment in Doerfer, which I have uploaded here. My head hurts from reading so much German, so I have not incorporated Doerfer's material. Note also the Middle Persian forms in this dictionary. --Vahag (talk) 16:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)


Barev dzez Vahag duq revert eq arel im targmanutyunnery Ayl lezunerov, commentov: неформат . Karoxeq ognel haskanal vor dzevov e petq anel vorpisis неформат chlini ? indz karoxeq grel hetevyal (ggl qom) namakov aranc spaceri: alex man free shnorakalutyun —This unsigned comment was added by Surenix (talkcontribs).

Էս անգլերեն Վիքիբառարանն ա։ Ստեղ հայերենից թարգմանում են միայն անգլերեն։ Ֆորմատի հետ կապված՝ կարող եք կարդալ Ձեր էջին իմ դրած հղումները։ PS Խնդրում եմ գրել հայատառ։ --Vahag (talk) 11:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)


I have been using some of the images here [2] for the following page [3] but there are other characters that I need to locate. Perhaps they are not Old Persian. Would you have any idea where I could find them? Daytrivia (talk) 12:25, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Nope. I don't even remember uploading those Old Persian characters. You should use Unicode. --Vahag (talk) 13:05, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick reply. Daytrivia (talk) 03:30, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Привет, Вааг! Насчет клинописи я понял, что можно обойтись без картинок. Но мне любопытно, отображаются ли символы (𒁉𒅕𒌅) правильно у тебя или выглядят как пустые серые квадратики (как у меня). The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 20:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Привет, Богорм! У меня клинопись отображается шрифтом Akkadian, когда к нему автоматически применяется код sc=Xsux шаблоном {{m}}. Без sc=Xsux я тоже вижу ненавистные квадратики. --Vahag (talk) 20:36, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Спасибо за ссылку. Я попробую чуть позже. А покамест ты бы поделился как выглядят первый и последний символы: более похожи на ассирийские варианты, которые отображаются на сайте Юникода (BI, TU) или на шумерские варианты знаков (B358ellst.png, B086ellst.png) из викисклада? The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 20:47, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Выглядят как на сайте Юникода. --Vahag (talk) 20:56, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Infinitive vs. first-person for Classical Armenian entries[edit]

HI Vahagn, out of curiosity, why do you keep the first person singular forms for verbs in Classical Armenian. Shouldn't we keep a standard of having infinitive forms for verbs? It seems some grabar dictionaries for some reason or other used first person singular forms of verbs (e.g. ունիմ) as headwords, but in modern times dictionaries are written with the infinitive form for headwords. Furthermore, for ունիմ you have translated as "to have; to take, to hold, to possess, to occupy, to enjoy" but in reality it is "I have; I take, I hold, I possess, I occupy, I enjoy". Indeed, when you look at ՆՀԲ you see that the latin preserves the first person singular verb form -- e.g. habeo, detineo, obtineo -- and does not write the infinitive form -- habere, detinere, obtinere, etc. So, I think we must either change the headwords to be infinitive, or we must keep the first person singular, but in the definition we must state the first person translation. Սէրուժ (talk) 18:24, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello, Serouj. The infinitive is not the universal lemma (citation) form for verbs. Notably, Ancient Greek and Latin use the first-person singular present indicative even though they have infinitives; see Wiktionary:Lemmas#Verbs for more. That is why ՆՀԲ glosses ունիմ with Latin habeo, detineo, obtineo, Ancient Greek κατέχω, but with Armenian առնուլ (aṙnul), տիրել (tirel), առնել (aṙnel), տէր ըլլալ (tēr əllal) and Turkish almak, i.e. infinitives.
The standard citation form of Old Armenian is not the infinitive, because the infinitive does not distinguish between i-conjugation and e-conjugation verbs. Note առնում (aṙnum) : առնուլ (aṙnul), ածեմ (acem) : ածել (acel), աղամ (ałam) : աղալ (ałal), but ունիմ (unim) : ունել (unel). Ačaṙyan cheats and cites the verb as ունիլ (unil), but that is a post-classical form. All the best sources cite Old Armenian verbs in first-person singular present indicative, such as ՆՀԲ, ԱԲ, ՋԲ, Hübschmann, Martirosyan, Godel, Olsen, etc.
As for definitions, the practice varies. Most sources translate ունիմ (unim) as “to have, to hold”, others “I have, I hold”, still others “have, hold”. I decided to go with the first practice, because that is the most common; because that is what the best print Latin and Ancient Greek dictionaries do (the Wiktionary practice for Latin is promoted by one misguided user, it is not common); and because the lemma-form is sort of a container for all inflected forms of the word, it does not need to be translated literally.
I appreciate that this must be confusing for speakers of modern Armenian who are accustomed to the infinitive, but the alternatives are even more confusing. In the future we will have a Wiktionary:About Old Armenian page, which should explain these sorts of things. --Vahag (talk) 13:21, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Beer parlour[edit]

You are not allowed to remove other user's comments from the Beer Parlour. As for the appropriateness of the venue, it was suggested to me by User:Atitarev. Purplebackpack89 13:06, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Anatoli is hopelessly optimistic about the usefulness of certain individuals. Stop annoying established contributors. --Vahag (talk) 14:13, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Vahagn, you're making assumptions, mate. I didn't say anything about any individuals or usefulness, just suggested doing it somewhere else as we don't have a mechanism for resolving conflict and I'm certainly not a judge or an arbiter. If someone harassed me or I thought someone harassed me, I would deal with it on my own. There's more solidarity in bullying than in defending someone from bullying in my observation, anyway. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:30, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Wiktionary is like an army in a post-Soviet country. If you can't survive in this environment, you should quit. Purplebackpack89 should devote himself to growing a ficus or something, not editing in the toughest place after the ISIS caliphate. --Vahag (talk) 23:19, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
I have to agree. No-one appreciates your work, you get a lot of criticism, your edits are deleted or reverted. Something survives, there are things people agree on in general and that keeps us going. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Not for me. No one gives a shit about Armenian, I do what I want in my little kingdom :) Sucks being you — editing Russian and being cockblocked by émigrés (hello WikiTiki). --Vahag (talk) 23:35, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Please keep doing Armenian. Is there a frequency list? There are still basic words missing, I think. I feel more comfortable working with Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese. The editors are more like my allies. Besides, I edit Russian because I can do it well, not because I enjoy doing it, it's work, not a hobby. I enjoy working with complicated foreign languages - the languages I've been learning in the last few years are all type 3 and 4 - considered hard to learn by English speakers. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:50, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Oh I don't plan on giving up on Armenian. Au contraire, during the last year or so I have bought a giant Armenological library to study Armenian seriously. I have also befriended Hrach Martirosyan, the greatest living Armenian linguist. After soaking the wisdom of my books and Hrach, I am going to enrich Wiktionary with highest quality Armenian content. PS. Asian people are nice, that's why you like working on those languages. My best friend has emigrated to Weihai, China, and is now breeding a superior Armeno-Chinese race. --Vahag (talk) 00:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
China is a better destination for migration than Russia. It's generally safe and friendly, despite some occasional minor problems. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Being an established contributor is not an excuse to be a dick to other editors. Purplebackpack89 14:38, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
In that case, which excuse have you been using? Keφr 18:25, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm not a dick to other editors. I don't go around removing their good-faith comments on other people's talk pages, and deleting user talk page comments as vandalism. Purplebackpack89 18:49, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
As a consummate dick, it is my pleasure to inform you that the nature of that last message is decidedly dickish in nature. Though not fully developed, hairy, and erect (as is typical of my own dickish comments), whining in the manner you just were is closer to dickish than farther.
My advice? Stop being so serious. This place pretty much sucks and is unlikely to ever be a top-notch dictionary for most languages. Use it for your own benefit while keeping the possibility of benefit to others in mind, but don't marry yourself to your edits and contributions. Someone is going to come along and force himself on your beloved and violate her utterly. So keep her at arm's distance from the start.
Either keep to yourself or find one or two people you can really get along with. Trying to work as a large team here is pointless because of the chaotic mesh of personalities and general lack of self-control in communication. Yay internet. — [Ric Laurent] — 10:37, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Richard, who is raping your articles? Tell me his name! --Vahag (talk) 14:25, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Jesus. T_T — [Ric Laurent] — 15:14, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Make that joke at your next Tea Party gathering. It will go hilariously. --Vahag (talk) 23:19, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Ric, you're the one whining too :) You have abandoned complex editing, which I liked a lot, because someone made you unhappy. I get into a lot of trouble here too but I'm still here. I only appear gentle because I usually don't like offending people, even if they are wrong (as long as they are not offending me or make stupid political statements). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:29, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, Ric. Come back. Pick a small language no one cares enough to ravish. --Vahag (talk) 23:35, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, something like that. Please come back. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:39, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm about as back as I'm going to be. I can't keep doing complex editing because the template-makers have decided wiki-code isn't enough and everything has to be in modules and shit I don't understand now. — [Ric Laurent] — 10:08, 24 November 2014 (UTC)


Would you like to expand ստեղծագործական? I noticed that it's a short page so I gave it {{hy-pron}}. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 15:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Which I'm hiding until Vahag verifies is right. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:55, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Richard is right. Please do not use {{hy-pron}} on your own. You can use {{rfp}}. PS. I have expanded the entry. --Vahag (talk) 17:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Now, how is խրախուսանք pronounced? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 21:10, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
[χəɾɑχuˈsɑŋkʰ]. I know, you couldn't sleep without knowing it. --Vahag (talk) 21:59, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I mind[edit]

you calling me "little Georgian weasel". In fact, I mind you calling me anything but Dixtosa. Take this into account. --Dixtosa (talk) 17:25, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Why are you so angry, batono Givi? Is it because we make better dolma? --Vahag (talk) 18:42, 16 January 2015 (UTC)


I see you are Armenian. Either that or you just speak in Armenian natively. I think I made something to commemorate the genocide on April 24. Jackninja5 (talk) 00:37, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, I am Armenian. What did you make? --Vahag (talk) 07:20, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
A picture. Jackninja5 (talk) 07:25, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, I guess. But a tank or a fighter jet would have been a better present. --Vahag (talk) 08:13, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
I will use it as my profile picture on Wikia, YouTube and Twitter on the day though. And someone stole the tank :P Jackninja5 (talk) 08:28, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

*grysti or '*gryzti ?[edit]

How come that we have *grysti instead of *gryzti' ?

If this is assmilated then shoud all words suffixed with *orz-, *jьz-, *vъz- be assimilated as well ?

As a mather of fact should all words lacking ь or ъ be completely assimilated ?

p.s I previously ask this at etymology scriptorium but no one seems to bother. What do you think ? 22:18, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

You probably should ask User talk:Ivan Štambuk, the creator and editor of Appendix:Proto-Slavic/grysti. —Stephen (Talk) 22:46, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Stephen is right, Proto-Slavic is not my strength. Ask Ivan. --Vahag (talk) 07:37, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Audio examples of Armenian for English Wikipedia[edit]

Hello! I noticed you have uploaded some Armenian pronunciation files on Wikimedia Commons. Would you be willing to record some examples for English Wikipedia? At the moment, two Armenian words are mentioned in w:en:Aspirated consonant, and it would be nice to have them recorded as an audio illustration:

  • տակ 'under' IPA(key): k
  • տաք 'hot' IPA(key):

Given the dialectal variation within Armenian, I hope this set of examples is accurate for your dialect. Let me know if you record them, and I will add them to the article. To clarify, they should be recorded in a single sound file so that readers can play it and hear the difference.

If you would also be able to come up with a minimal triad of voiced, voiceless, and aspirated consonants (words with t d , for instance), or if you know of an example of two aspirated consonants in a row, those would also be great additions to the article. Eru·tuon 21:01, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, will do and let you know. --Vahag (talk) 10:19, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
I recorded File:Hy-EA-տաք-տակ.ogg, which is what you asked. I have also recorded File:Hy-EA-դուր-տուր-թուր.ogg demonstrating a d, t, tʿ contrast. Finally, I recorded File:Hy-EA-Մեքքա.ogg and File:Hy-EA-կեցցե.ogg to show geminated aspirated consonants (they are not common in Armenian). Or did you mean you wanted two aspirated consonants in one word, not necessarily geminated? In that case you can have File:Hy-EA-թուփ.ogg. The quality of the recordings is not great, I do not have the necessary equipment. --Vahag (talk) 19:12, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! Actually, I wasn't very clear: what I meant by "two aspirated consonants in a row" was not gemination or two aspirated consonants in the same word, but rather a consonant cluster, something like IPA(key): [tsʰkʰ] or IPA(key): [tʰkʰ]. I have read that Armenian aspirated stops in clusters each have their own aspirated release, and this would be a worthwhile thing to illustrate. There might be examples already on Wikimedia Commons, but regrettably I don't know the Armenian alphabet well enough to figure this out.
However, the geminated aspirated stops would be worth adding to the article. They would illustrate how doubling the stop results in a long hold and then an aspirated release, not two aspirated releases. I'll see if I can work them in. Eru·tuon 22:13, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
After listening to File:Hy-EA-դուր-տուր-թուր.ogg, it sounds like the aspirated consonant in the last word is not very strong. Is this normal, or a mistake when pronouncing three words that are so similar? Eru·tuon 23:07, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Another idea: the Aspiration article on the Spanish Wikipedia mentions an Eastern Armenian minimal set bardz, barts, bartsʿ. Assuming this is correct, it would be worth including, since aspiration of an affricate is something (from my personal experience) that can be hard to hear. If you know of a minimal set of final g, k, kʿ, that could replace the takʿ, tak example. And all minimal sets should be recorded in the same order so as not to confuse readers: voiced, voiceless, aspirated. Eru·tuon 02:13, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
IPA(key): [tsʰkʰ] and IPA(key): [tʰkʰ] are common: refer to File:Hy-EA-գնացք.ogg and File:Hy-EA-աղոթք.ogg.
The aspirated consonant in File:Hy-EA-դուր-տուր-թուր.ogg is normal. I have also recorded File:Hy-EA-թուր.ogg and feel no difference.
The Spanish Wikipedia's example is terribly wrong, misspelled and mispronounced. You can use File:Hy-EA-թագ-թակ-թաք.ogg for a word-final g-k-k‘ contrast and File:Hy-EA-ձախ-ծախ-ցախ.ogg for a d͡z-t͡s-t͡sʰ affricate contrast. Armenian aspirated affricates, t͡sʰ and t͡ʃʰ, are the same as in European languages. It is the unaspirated counterparts that you are lacking. --Vahag (talk) 12:45, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! I'll add these examples. Curious, though: are there examples of a d͡z-t͡s-t͡sʰ affricate contrast at the end of a word? Eru·tuon 02:08, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
I could not find a set of three words, only minimal pairs, e.g. այծ (ayc) vs այց (aycʿ), ոճ () vs ոչ (očʿ).
I note that on Wikipedia you have transcribed /kʰkʰ/ and /tsʰtsʰ/ as [kːʰ] and [tːsʰ], instead of [kʰː] and [t͡sʰː]. Is that the usual notation practice recommended by the IPA system or just a personal choice? --Vahag (talk) 11:14, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── It's a personal choice; I'm not sure if it's technically correct, but I chose it to show that the hold of the stop is lengthened, not the fricative or the aspirated release. Perhaps it is incorrect, and if so, hopefully someone will correct it.

If you could record the contrast of ayc–aycʿ, that would be useful for the article, since an example of /ts/ in a cluster is already included. Of course, if you happen to recall a contrast that includes /dz/ as well, that would be ideal. Eru·tuon 06:15, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You can use File:Hy-ea-այծ-այց.ogg. I could not think of a triplet with /dz/, sorry. --Vahag (talk) 18:32, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. If you ever randomly recall a triplet, let me know. Eru·tuon 08:49, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


Հարգելի Վահագն Պետրոսյան, ես էլ գիտեմ որ ցլաչք բառ չկա, բայց սա bullseye-ի ճիշտ իմաստով միակ թարգմանությունն է: Այս բառը դարթսի համար միակ տերմինն է և շատ կարևոր: --Vadgt (talk) 19:06, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Մենք ունենք բառերն ընդգրկելու խիստ չափորոշիչներ՝ WT:CFI։ Դրանցից ամենակարևորն է բառի վկայվածությունը երեք տարբեր տպագիր գործում։ *Ցլաչք-ը ոչ մի տեղ վկայված չէ, հետևաբար չի բավարարում էդ պահանջին ու չի կարող ընդգրկվել անգլերեն Wiktionary-ում։ Բառի կարևորությունը և թարգմանության հաջող լինելը ռելևանտ չէ։ Մենք իրավունք չունենք նոր բառեր հնարելու ու առաջխաղացնելու։ Մենք միայն նկարագրում ենք արդեն գոյություն ունեցող բառերը։ --Vahag (talk) 19:38, 25 February 2015 (UTC)


Hi, I was wondering If you knew why is Western Armenian sometimes called Adapazar, namely in this article? Is the Izmit dialect the most spoken one, or the biggest outlier representative of whole WA? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 13:20, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Ivan. I have seen that article and wondered myself. Adapazar (Adapazarı) dialect belonged to the Nikomedia (İzmit) subdialect of Polis (Istanbul) interdialect. It was not a widely spoken one, in fact we do not have a satisfactory description of this dialect, nor was it the biggest outlier among Western Armenian dialects. The only thing special about it is that according to J̌ahukyan 1972 among modern dialects it has the least features distinguishing it from Classical Armenian. --Vahag (talk) 16:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Update: Adapazar is listed as the canonical for Western Armenian in the IELex database which the authors used, and that's the reason why it is listed. (Apparently they reference Wiktionary in many places O_O.) In case you're interested, the paper is available here and extra goodies are here. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 23:31, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that list is wrong. Adapazar dialect was wiped out after the genocide, before a description of it was made. Making such a list is impossible. I'm seeing Hrach on Thursday again, I'll ask what's going on here. PS They are referencing Wiktionary and calling our Reliability level "Good". I'm flattered :) --Vahag (talk) 17:58, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Martirosyan too doesn't think Adapazar is special. The source of Adapazar Swadesh list is this article, compiled by a certain "V. Gerrard." --Vahag (talk) 09:35, 29 May 2015 (UTC)


An anonymous user from a possibly Armenian I.P. address added the word հնոցապան (hnocʿapan). Judging from the entry's history, could you give that anonymous user a lecture? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 16:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing the entry to my attention, I fixed it. The IP does not deserve my lecture yet. He was probably a one-time fly-by. --Vahag (talk) 17:13, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism in progress[edit]

Hi Vahag. You're an admin, right? Could you block (talkcontribswhoisdeleted contribsnukeedit filter logblockblock logactive blocksglobal blocks), please? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 12:49, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 12:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for reporting. You'll have my vote. --Vahag (talk) 12:56, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
No problem, and thank you. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 12:59, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

МФА для русского[edit]

Привет, Вааг, если интерсно, посмотри на эту дискуссию. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:08, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Привет, Анатолий. Я тоже произношу кот и код, рот и род по-разному, но это ничего не значит. Этот хороший словарь с записями поддерживает твой взгляд. Наверное я и IP находимся под воздействием написания слова. По-моему этот феномен называется orthographic pronunciation. --Vahag (talk) 08:10, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Да, или "spelling pronunciation". В стандартном русском и белорусском согласные оглушаются/озвончаются, в стандартном украинском - нет. На записи "код" произнесено как будто ей сказали - "запиши, чтоб было понятно, что не "кот", а "код"". Так русские произносят только для смыслоразличения, а вообще в повседевной речи не говорят [kod]. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:45, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Понятно. --Vahag (talk) 09:50, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


Hi VP. Just made Armine, and apparently there's some Armenian women with this name. Could you perhaps help out by giving some etymology or whatever? --Type56op9 (talk) 12:09, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Sure, WF. See Արմինե (Armine). It is a very popular and boring name. --Vahag (talk) 14:20, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

where are you from[edit]

Привет Вааг,

Что-то не пошло с армянской диакритикой, посмотри, пожалуйста. Знак "?" стоит вместо ударения. Еще, ":" в конце предложения должен транслитерироваться как вопросительный знак? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:51, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Привет, Анатолий.
Знак "?" стоит в месте армянского вопросительного знака ՞ (?), а не ударения. Мы ставим вопросительный знак над вопросительным словом, а не в конце предложения. Всё правильно. ":" в конце предложения — это full stop, но он здесь не нужен, потому что в этом примере мы не имеем дело с настоящими предложениями. --Vahag (talk) 10:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Спасибо, это очень даже интересно! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:07, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Automatic transliteration[edit]

Where do I find the controls for whether templates like {{l}} autotransliterate Yiddish? This really needs to be turned off; it's spewing out crappy transliterations across Wiktionary. Yiddish cannot be autotransliterated, and we really shouldn't try. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I oppose turning off nonmandatory autotransliteration for Yiddish. Crappy transliterations only exist when neither diacritics, nor manual transliterations exists. The fix is easy - add diacritics or manual transliteration. Module:links doesn't have override_translit for Yiddish. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:00, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
But you're wrong about that. Yiddish simply doesn't use diacritics for a word like שבת (shbs). The transliteration should be shabes, but the module will never be able to figure that out unless we hardcode it in. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:43, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
A few points here. I think editors should provide manual (hardcoded) transliteration in such cases - שבת (shabes) or suppress transliteration with [[שבת]] or use another template, which doesn't use automatic transliteration.
Yiddish is not the only language that needs manual transliteration for certain words, the percentage differs but I believe that the majority of words (can) use diacritics as the dictionary style. E.g. Korean 십육 (sibyuk) needs a manual transliteration "simnyuk", Russian что́бы (čtóby) needs manual "štóby" and Arabic شُوكُولَاتَة (šūkūlāta) needs hardcoded "šokolāta".
The Arabic module uses a logic that when vowel points are missing between consonants then the automatic transliteration is disabled. Is there a logic that would work similarly for Yiddish. (Vahagn, sorry for highjacking your talk page, we can move the discussion somewhere else). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Yiddish doesn't use voweling the same way Arabic and Hebrew do, so not really lol — [Ric Laurent] — 12:34, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Since most Yiddish words have at least one unpointed letter, removing autotransliteration would do the same thing, but without the module overhead... Seriously, though, the only way to make autotransliteration work for Yiddish would be to hard code a list of exceptions- and there are a good number of those. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:58, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
To answer your question, I don't remember where the autotransliteration logic is stored, sorry. --Vahag (talk) 09:13, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Autotransliteration for languages with two-letter codes are enabled here Module:languages/data2. @Metaknowledge Please don't disable autotransliteration - I started to rely on it and personally removed a lot of hard-coded transliterations, making sure they match automatic. If you wish, open a discussion elsewhere. Admittedly, the module could be improved and rules for using the override defined. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:30, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Any Yiddish word of Hebrew or Aramaic origin is going to be transliterated wrong if the editor doesn't enter the information. I rarely enter transliterations unless I'm crazy bored, partly as a passive aggressive rebellion against the autotransliteration of Yiddish. It makes the usex template do fun stuff. shbsdik lol — [Ric Laurent] — 12:32, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
@Dick Laurent Ha-ha, what's the Yiddish spelling for ши́бздик (šíbzdik)? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:24, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
I have no idea. "shbsdik" is what the auto xlit said for שבתדיק (shabesdik) which means 'set aside for/appropriate for the Sabbath'. — [Ric Laurent] — 06:27, 13 April 2015 (UTC)


I noticed Category:Zazaki terms derived from Sumerian‏‎ in Special:WantedCategories, but noticed that you had deleted it a year ago, and, on further checking, that the deletion concerned the exact same content in the exact same entry- so I thought I should check with you before touching it. This time it wasn't Marmase (they've been globally blocked for sockpuppeteering at Meta and at the Incubator), but Embryomystic, who added "ultimately from Sumerian" bits to all kinds of etymologies a couple of weeks ago.

For what it's worth, this one sounds fairly plausible to me: it's the sort of semantic domain (big public buildings) where a Sumerian derivation would make sense. Both Arabic and Hebrew have this, both borrowed a lot from Aramaic, and Aramaic could have gotten it from Akkadian. Still, I don't have any Arabic etymological references to check, so I'll leave it up to you. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:08, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

The ultimate derivation is probably correct but Embryomystic should not play with {{borrowing}}, I will leave him a message. --Vahag (talk) 09:57, 12 April 2015 (UTC)


No consensus about the 'Altaic/Asiatic' etymology. Would you care to leave a comment to the discussion at WT:ES? Thanks. Hirabutor (talk) 20:52, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

I left a negative note. But it's not because we're genetic enemies. It's because I care about scholarly quality of our etymologies. --Vahag (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
No problem Vahag, I absolutely have understanding for this. Hirabutor (talk) 16:34, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
I do not even consider you as an enemy neither. What's about Gamkrelidze and Ivanov btw? According to the paper of Mikhailova both of them explain *markos/*marhaz as a borrowing by early Indo-European tribes with Altaic tribes. And how to deal with Japanese and Sino-Tibetan k-m-raŋ_~_s-raŋ? Hirabutor (talk) 20:17, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Gamkrelidze/Ivanov do not explain *markos/*marhaz as a borrowing from Altaic. They say "The word is plainly a migratory term which spread throughout the languages of Central and East Asia, whence it could have entered the Celto-Germanic dialects". Also, "The words for 'horse' point clearly to contacts of the Celto-Germanic groups with speakers of Asian languages before the first millennium B .C., which could have occurred during the historical migrations of the tribes speaking Celto-Germanic dialects." This information should be included in the etymology section, but you cannot be trusted with that, because you have an agenda, and I'm quoting, "to push a Turkic origin of various ancient cultures and peoples".
In this case you are trying to make Scythians Turkic, which is nonsense. Scythians were an ancient, nice Iranian people known for their beautiful animal motif art. Your Turkic tribes bring only chaos and destruction. --Vahag (talk) 19:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Do you think it's really a Turk? That fun long-term abuse page paints the picture of a seriously crazy person lol — [Ric Laurent] — 09:01, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
He is an immigrant to Germany from Turkey. Of course, most Anatolian Turks genetically are not descended from true Turks, who are Mongoloids, such as Turkmens and Yakuts. Instead, they descend from raped Armenians, Greeks, Syriacs, Lazes and other autochthons. --Vahag (talk) 14:05, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Religion of peace! — [Ric Laurent] — 14:12, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 :) --Vahag (talk) 14:16, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I wanted to say something more fun than that, but my recent choices in life have made it much more likely that the peaceful farmers will try to find me and kill my face :'( — [Ric Laurent] — 14:35, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
What farmers? --Vahag (talk) 14:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Kathy Griffin ironically calls the Muslims "peaceful farmers." I love irony. I wish it were made of cake and ice cream, I'd be such a big fat bitch. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:04, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
You're so narrow-minded, Richard. When they behead you for being a godless homo after shariah is introduced in North Carolina, you'll totally be deserving it. --Vahag (talk) 15:51, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
You know I love God. They're the ones acting godless, cutting off people's heads and pushing queers off buildings. Who do they think they are, Iran? — [Ric Laurent] — 16:04, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I wouldn't put Iran in that league. At its heart it is a civilized society. --Vahag (talk) 20:20, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Maybe til about 1980, but since then they've killed something like three to four thousand men for touching penises. Iranian society could be civilized, without the fundamentalist Islamic government. — [Ric Laurent] — 20:36, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I want to make something clear, I do not want you to talk about my person, I am not an immigrant. I am not related to this Tirgil34 phantom, simply everybody editing Turkic-related topics got accused of sockpuppetry by this Tirgil34 phantom. And Krakkos is just one out of dozens crazy sockpuppets as well. I was new, I did mistakes. I was just trying to show that what I maintain is not fringe, but (i.e. in this case) commonly discussed in scholarly circles (p.65). Back to topic, Mikhailova writes: "According to Pokorny, the word *mark-o- represents a Celto-Germanic isogloss, conserved in these two branches of IE languages “a North-West-IE linguistic community” (Ellis Evans 1981: 241), and a presumed IE root is *marko- (IEW: 700). But Antoine Meillet assumed that this word was an early loanword in Germanic and Celtic from an unknown source (Meillet 1926: 229). This idea was developed by T. Gamkrelidze and V. Ivanov, who had seen in it a borrowing from an Altaic language (or dialect). Indeed, Celto-Germanic *mark- has parallels with Altaic *morV- (Mong. mörin, Kalm. morin ‘horse’; cf. Russ. merin ‘old horse, gelding,’ a late borrowing from Mong., cf. also Chin. ma < *mra, Tamil mā). Gamkrelidze and Ivanov explain this borrowing by early contacts of IE tribes with Altaic tribes. Moreover, they propose that this represents evidence of early migrations of IE tribes from the East to the West through Asia Minor (Гамкрелидзе (Gamkrelidze), Иванов (Ivanov) 1984: 939)." There are many other theories, I will present them at the talk page later. Hirabutor (talk) 21:53, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Again, I would like for that theories to be presented in the etymology section, but I don't trust you to do that conscientiously. Sorry. --Vahag (talk) 08:19, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm fine with that. I just wanted to elucidate Gamkrelidze's and Ivanov's elaborations for now. I have listed some other theories at the talk page as well. I think you and Ivan Štambuk are good for this job. Hirabutor (talk) 15:58, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
I am very busy these days. I can't do it, sorry. --Vahag (talk) 20:24, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
Since when the sexy Armenian has no time for me? joke :) let's remain like this, maybe in a few weeks or months. Hirabutor (talk) 20:55, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I intend to read Gamkrelidze/Ivanov at some point in the future and to incorporate all of its content into Wiktionary. But that will be in a couple of years. --Vahag (talk) 09:17, 29 May 2015 (UTC)


Yes I am using book Pahlavi but everything is from "A Concise Pahlavi Dictionary" written by MacKenzie. He gives the Aramaic spellings. Adjutor101 (talk) 16:08, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

You are using Inscriptional Pahlavi for Book Pahlavi. That's my point. You can't do that. --Vahag (talk) 16:10, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Turkish Regional Dialect Categories[edit]

In this diff you added 19 redlinked single-entry subcategories to Category:Regional Turkish. Is that what you intended to do, or just a side-effect? I notice that the two existing subcategories stem from similar edits of yours a bit over a year ago. I'm wondering now whether I should have created those categories, either. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:24, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

It is what I intended to do. The categories should eventually contain thousands of entries. --Vahag (talk) 08:50, 12 June 2015 (UTC)


Thanks for your help on this and other PIE entries. I just wanted discuss the reconstructions *gʷĺ̥h₂nos/*gʷl̥h₂-eno-. You are right that De Vaan, Beekes, and Martirosyan all propose *gʷl̥h₂eno-, though this would produce neither կաղին nor βᾰ́λᾰνος (but instead should give something like կաղան and βλᾱνος/βληνος). Fortson's Indo-European Language and Culture mentions that in AG Ŕ̥h₁/Ŕ̥h₂/Ŕ̥h₃ appear to give éRe/áRa/óRo respectively; though this theory is debated. This would appear to give the only correct result in this AG etymology, but we can stick with the official etymology if you think it is more appropriate.

Also, I apologize for repeatedly being incapable of typing Old Armenian. :)JohnC5 05:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Neither PIE *gʷĺ̥h₂nos nor *gʷl̥h₂-eno- would give Armenian կաղին (kałin). The first would yield *կաղն (*kałn), the second *կաղան (*kałan). Clackson 1994 reconstructs the former and explains the insertion of -ի- (-i-) by analogy. Martirosyan says he accepts Clackson's explanation but unlike Clackson reconstructs *gʷl̥h₂-eno-. I have written an email to Hrach, let's wait for his clarification. --Vahag (talk) 18:34, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Woah! I didn't know you knew him well enough to email him. That's very cool. Thanks for the help―the world of Armenian etymology is still rather foreign to me. —JohnC5 19:20, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
We're friends. We meet, talk, exchange emails. Sometimes I tell him about my small discoveries in Armenian linguistics. He mentions me in his upcoming article. --Vahag (talk) 19:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
You're so legit. I'm very impressed. May inquire as to the context and content of your article mention? —JohnC5 19:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Don't be so impressed, I'm not very important. Hrach is a very modest man, ready to engage anyone who is genuinely into linguistics. The upcoming article is an Armeno–Anatolica, a study of Anatolian loanwords in Armenian. I have helped him with minor suggestions in preparing the article, so he thanks me in a footnote :) My marginally more substantial contributions (etymological suggestions) he stores in his internal database, with my name. This constantly-growing database will serve as the foundation for a future comprehensive etymological dictionary of Armenian. --Vahag (talk) 20:34, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Martirosyan prefers the reconstruction *gʷl̥h₂-eno-, without going into details. In his opinion *gʷl̥h₂no- too would probably give Armenian *կաղան- (*kałan-) because a laryngeal between a consonant and a resonant is probably vocalized in Armenian. So the mechanism of the analogical insertion of -ի- (-i-) is not relevant.
I think we should mention both reconstructions. --Vahag (talk) 11:28, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sounds good to me! —JohnC5 10:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


I don't know enough to tell if this diff is legitimate, but it certainly set my alarm bells off. Could you take a look? Chuck Entz (talk) 14:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

It's one of the traditional explanations, one among 10 sourced ones in the Russian Wikipedia. Of course it's Hirubator's favourite one. --Vahag (talk) 15:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Could you provide the exact source for Vasmer please? Thanks. --Hirabutor (talk) 19:00, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
What do you mean by the exact source? The source is Vasmer, his opinion, properly referenced with a volume and page number. His exact wording is "Недостоверно ввиду монг. Baigal "Байкал"" = "doubtful [the traditional Turkic origin] in view of [the existence] of Mongol Baigal". --Vahag (talk) 19:22, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I mean the Mongolic etymologies. Would be nice to add them. --Hirabutor (talk) 01:06, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Vasmer does not give any. Among 10 sourced proposals listed in Russian Wikipedia, Nos. 2–5 and 9 argue for a native Buryat origin. I am only marginally interested in Altaic linguistics, so I have to decline reading those sources and entering the information into Wiktionary, sorry. --Vahag (talk) 14:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

suspect diff[edit]

This look right to you? diffקהת — 19:10, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Yep, the comparison belongs to Ačaṙean. --Vahag (talk) 19:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Ok, just wanted to make sure we weren't getting more fabricated nationalist weirdness :D — קהת — 15:01, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Simboyd has reformed. He is reliable now :) --Vahag (talk) 15:13, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

A favour - information about a surname[edit]

Hello, I had to contact someone with the surname 'Mnatzaganian' not too long ago. I was just wondering whether it is an Armenian name and also how it is pronounced (especially the first part - is it a silent 'M'?)? Thanks for any help. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 12:48, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

See Մնացականյան (Mnacʿakanyan). It would be a cognate of Persian Mandani if you had such a surname. --Vahag (talk) 13:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you so much, that is amazing! :D I wan't expecting a link to Persian. Next time I talk to her, I will be able to say her name instead of avoiding names throughout the conversation. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 13:51, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
That happens to me all the time :D People avoiding my name, because they can't remember Vahagn. --Vahag (talk) 13:55, 4 July 2015 (UTC)