User talk:-sche

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ubersexual / including non-durable citations[edit]

see User talk:-sche/Archive/2011

Translations of attributive use of nouns[edit]

see User talk:-sche/Archive/2011

Add replacements to edit summary[edit]

In AWB Options > Normal setting uncheck 'Add replacements to edit summary' and it'll make the edit summaries only what you put in the 'Default Summary' box. Makes edit summaries shorter and more 'human'. Mglovesfun (talk) 18:38, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Aha! Thanks for the tip. :) - -sche (discuss) 18:45, 11 October 2012 (UTC)


I'd like to take over WOTD — at least for now. I've already set up new words for October 28-31 to get the ball rolling again. Looking over diffs to see what others had done allowed me to figure out the basics, but there's still many other things I need to know about the process, especially what I need to do to create an archive, set up a new month, and polish the entry pages for words before they appear. Thanks! Astral (talk) 00:43, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad you're interested!
The front-end part is simple—pick words and plug them into the templates. You're already doing a good job of that; I like your Halloween pick. As you seem to have gathered, the last definition doesn't end with a full stop/period (though if a word has multiple definitions, the preceding definitions do), because the template already adds one: double-dotted vs fixed. Featured words should have pronunciation info (either IPA or audio); the template will automatically notice and include an audio pronunciation if one is present.
The more additional info an entry has, like etymology, illustration or examples of usage, the more interesting it is likely to be to users who click through to it; on the other hand, trying to cite and find a picture for every word you feature on WOTD is a recipe for burning out. Strategise.
Once you've set a word, add the was-wotd template to the entry, so that it won't be featured again (mostly).
To create an archive, do what Ruakh did here, changing {{wotd archive|PREVIOUS|NEXT|YEAR|DAYS}} to the previous month, the next month, the year (four digits) and the number of days in the month (28, 29, 30, 31), and updating the pagename to the relevant month and year. An easy way of creating an archive is to copy-and-paste the relevant month's Recycled Page, e.g. Wiktionary:Word of the day/Recycled pages/October, simply changing {{wotd recycled}} to {{wotd archive}} and adding the YEAR and DAYS parameters.
At the end of the month, subst: all of the templates by changing each day's {{Wiktionary:Word of the day to {{subst:Wiktionary:Word of the day. The reason for not subst:ing a day before it's done is that someone might tweak the definition or fix a typo, etc.
- -sche (discuss) 04:41, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. This is very helpful. I've got a couple of questions. First, I'm not good with IPA, so is there a way I could arrange for someone who is to add pronunciation data to entries before they appear? Second, is it okay to occasionally select words I've nominated myself? I already did this with trainiac, because I wanted something "fun" between mulct and peri-urban, but I don't want to do it again if it's something that should be avoided. Astral (talk) 03:33, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Also, exactly how far back does the prohibition against using words featured as WOTDs on other sites go? It makes sense not to copy words other sites have featured recently, but three, four, five years back seems like a another matter. I need a verb, and wanted to use photobomb, but it was featured on Urban Dictionary in 2009, and more recently as a noun on September 28 of this year. Astral (talk) 03:49, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
So, I chose ambuscade instead, only to discover it was a Merriam Webster WOTD in 2010. Can't win. :( Astral (talk) 04:27, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Disclaimer: I'm not Sche (@Sche: feel free to correct me on anything I say). Anyway, I think that choosing words that you nominate is fine, and that if you find a concise way to list all the entries you want IPA for pronto (on a subpage, maybe?) I would be happy to help out, as would Sche, Angr, et al. (probably) given their past contributions in that regard (and they're probably more trustworthy than I am). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:14, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes, you can just comment that you'd like to feature a word but it lacks pronunciation info. Many users watch that page, and someone should take care of it. And yes, you can feature words you've nominated—at least, I did. It's probably best to let a couple days pass between when you nominate a word and when you use it, in case anyone comments with objections, but I doubt anything you nominate will be objectionable (you know not to nominate redlinks or offensive words). As for other sites' words of the day: personally, I never paid much attention to that rule; I checked if a word had been featured on another site in the past few months, and if not, looked no further. Sometimes, people would strike words that had been featured by other sites years ago, and in those cases, I respected the strikings and didn't use those words, but I didn't strike words that had been featured by other sites years ago myself. - -sche (discuss) 05:45, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Inscriptions and whatnot[edit]

Discussion moved to WT:T:ALA.

Data consistency checking module[edit]

Kephir wrote Module:data consistency check which performs a check on all the data modules, and makes sure there aren't any discrepancies. There are some, so I thought you might like to know. —CodeCat 23:45, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Among other things, aus, sai, and cai ought to go, stupid geographic categories that they are. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:50, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
@CodeCat: thank you for the link. (And @Kephir, if you're reading this, thanks for designing that module!) @Metaknowledge: Indeed, and nai (which several things currently list as their family!). qfa-ame should also go, IMO, or at least be voted upon like Altaic and Zuni needs to be updated not to list qfa-ame as its family even if it is kept. (If qfa-ame is kept, we should reconsider having deleted Penutian.) I've been meaning to start Requests for Deletion, but I've been busy. Feel free to beat me to it. - -sche (discuss) 09:19, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Others#Certain_geographic_language_families. - -sche (discuss) 02:02, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png Barnstar
For your continuous work to improve coverage and consistency of languages, families and such. —CodeCat 03:16, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Thank you! :) - -sche (discuss) 06:29, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Re: jewing / using labels on inflected forms[edit]

see User talk:-sche/Archive/2014

Haida languages[edit]

Have we thought out the treatment of these yet? We have both the macrolanguage code hai (and a category for terms derived from it, including the entry gwaai that I think I'll go and RFV) as well as the two sublects, hdn and hax, the latter of which I just unwittingly made a terms derived from category for. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:35, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I recall looking into the Haida lects, but it seems from my "Note 2" in this RFM that I held off on posting about them for some reason, and then got distracted by events in real life. WT:LANGTREAT says to treat only the macrolanguage as a language, but like the pronouncements I mentioned in that RFM, it seems there was never discussion about that. There are noticeable phonological differences between the Northern and Southern lects. Each of those lects is in turn made up of its own (sub-)dialects, but the sub-dialects within each group are mutually intelligible, so it doesn't seem to be a problem to merge those (into hax and into hdn), and it seems most references do. I looked at a number of North Haida, South Haida and plain "Haida" materials (Enrico's Northern Haida Songs, etc) and references before I posted the above-linked RFM last year and planned to comment about Haida; I'll see if I can find the notes I made then. - -sche (discuss) 22:30, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
A tad more research on the matter suggests to me that we should deprecate the use of the macrolanguage and reassign it, then create categories for the sublects. If you've notes on it, though, I'll wait for you to start the RFM instead of blowing ahead myself. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:01, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Ok, here are my notes, which I'd be happy to summarize in any RFM on the subject, or which you can feel free to pull from.
- -sche (discuss) 05:49, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
By the way, for entries I would suggest using Enrico's orthography (or maybe Bringhurst's), so as to avoid characters like that are hard to input and liable to display incorrectly. - -sche (discuss) 06:07, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
All sounds good, and you can feel free to copy my Support over to the RFM for splitting and deprecating hai, but I'm not on board with the orthography. In British Columbia, I've only seen the orthography with x̱ used, so I would presume it is standard among speakers and linguists. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:21, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia says SHIP's orthography "is the usual orthography used in Skidegate", while Enrico's is what I saw in my (limited) review for Northern Haida—but perhaps the set of materials I have access to is not representative of all materials. Are the texts you see in British Columbia Southern Haida, or are some Northern Haida? Meh, it would be undesirable to use two different orthographies... I suppose we can normalize both (South and North) on the SHIP spellings and mention the other spellings as alternative forms. (Cf this subthread, if you're bored.) - -sche (discuss) 23:45, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
OK, after waiting a few days for some other discussions to settle down, I started Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2014/August#Haida_lects. - -sche (discuss) 19:09, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Preventing long tags[edit]

In the unlikely case that you haven't noticed my edit at mir#German_Low_German, have a look. With something as splintered as Low German, do you think it would make sense to install an L4 for "Dialects using this word" or something instead of context labels? The pronunciation sections can simply go into a collapse. Korn [kʰʊ̃ːæ̯̃n] (talk) 15:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

@Korn: thanks for bringing this up. I thought about it a while ago when I saw anguañu, which specifies twenty different dialects that the term is used in. Perhaps in such cases the individual dialects can be specified under ====Usage notes=====, leaving the definition line to just say "many|_|dialects". (According to templatetiger, there are three other entries which use 9 or more parameters of {{label}}: recondite, quindecillion, and tu; and there are also a few entries which use 10 or more parameters of {{context}}: pardı and Mischief Night.) - -sche (discuss) 00:56, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
However, {{label}} adds categories which would need to be added manually or in another way if we moved away from using {{label}} on the definition lines of such terms... - -sche (discuss) 01:01, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Source access[edit]

I have no access to the PDF documents of Cambridge Ancient History. Do you know how to get access to it? --UK.Akma (talk) 21:02, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't; I'm sorry. I just took the text that had been added to Subarian and trimmed out the speculation on ethnic identity and other things that belonged in Wikipedia rather than in a dictionary. - -sche (discuss) 21:29, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
See the discussion on the talk page of w:Subartu about what seem to be the same set of references. I have my doubts whether any of this should be allowed in the entry. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:13, 10 January 2016 (UTC)


You added the entry for "woman" here for Makalero, which is incorrect. Huber, the source you cited, simply states that it is Tongan, and that entry already existed there. I think that in your haste to create entries in a maximal number of languages, you may have made more errors that won't be caught for quite a while (you got lucky in that this one happened to turn up on my watchlist, and I felt it very unlikely that Makalero would borrow a vocabulary item like that from Polynesian, so I checked). In any case, I appreciate your project, but I think you need to take a lot more precaution to avoid these kinds of mistakes. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:51, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh, you're right about Huber; I'm glad you caught that. I've been going through and checking my previous additions ever since Chuck's caution in the previous section that the Comparative Austronesian Dictionary (which had been recommended to me as a valid reference on Talk:water, when I was trying to verify the translations people had added there) normalizes orthography and so has to be checked against other sources. So, I hope to uncover any other errors. - -sche (discuss) 16:42, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
I see, Liliana should not have said that. Yeah, you can't really use Blust as a primary source for something serious, although the orthographic concerns run deeper; some of these languages are well nigh unwritten, and linguists might just put them in IPA. Thanks for going through them, anyhow. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:04, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Looking at diffs of all my edits to water and woman, and so checking not only anything I added but any word I changed the spelling of and any language I updated the name of, and sometimes spot-checking things I had nothing to do with, I've found other references for the translations of water and woman into Äiwoo, Aklanon, Alaba, Alune, Antillean Creole (and added Guianese Creole and a usex to Haitian Creole), Anuta[n] (and Tikopia), and Arosi, Batad Ifugao, [Palawan] Batak (which we should possibly rename to avoid confusion with the Batak languages like Karo Batak), Bauro, Biak, Biloxi, Binukid, Bontoc (we probably shouldn't have both the macrolanguage code and the dialect codes there), Bughotu, Buli, Casiguran Dumagat Agta, Cebuano, Chewong, Dobu, Dupaninan Agta, Futuna, Fuyug, Gapapaiwa, Gedaged, and Gilbertese (should that language be renamed?). I had to fix Blust's spelling of several things, and fix Arosi and Bauro where he had the 'wrong' word, but the only translations for which I couldn't find any more-reliable references are Bukitan, Embaloh or Ende.
Several days ago, I removed the Ajië and Amurdag translations (not added by me — removed as part of the original project of checking the translations at water) because I couldn't find any references for them.
Abua and Abung things would benefit from more references: the only ref I find for the Abua translation of water (added by someone long ago) and of woman is R. Blench's work on the Central Delta languages; I'd prefer if there were additional sources. The Abung translation of water (likewise added long ago) is only in the Austronesian Basic Vocabulary Database (and in placenames, but ABVD is the only reference to define it as a common noun); likewise the translation of woman.
That's all the languages that start with A through G; I'll be going through the rest.
PS other people long ago added translations into several of these languages to the tables of a handful of other entries such as dog, which it may also be useful to check (in case they were working from Blust).
- -sche (discuss) 08:13, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I've found other references for Hiligaynon (in several spellings, some dated), Isnag, Itawit, Jarai, Jola-Fonyi; Kambera, Kankanaey and Kapampangan (both even with citations of use), Kala Lagaw Ya (the spellings are all attested in dead-tree references, but the division into different dialects is per WP), Kedang and Kumak, Lamaholot, Lamboya, Lavukaleve and Lou; likewise Wandamen, Waray, Waropean, Wedau, Western Bukidnon Manobo, Wogeo, Woleaian, Wuvulu-Aua, Yami, Zaghawa, Zangskari, Zangwal. The Kua-nsi and Kuamasi and Sonaga translations are from the scholar who recently documented those languages and sucessfully petitioned for them to have ISO codes.
The K. Blaan translation is in ABVD and the word itself is used in Kibo Kbulung dad Fdas, but not glossed there (it might mean "sister" in addition to "woman", like a few other languages' words do).
I can't find [better] references for Kanowit (not added to the table by me).
The Komodo translation I can find a reference for, but it's in Indonesian and only glosses the term as part of longer sentences; likewise Waropean; it would be nice to find a better reference than Blust confirming or denying the spelling. Li'o is only in ABVD. Lawangan and Loniu I find only general references mentioning.
That's all the languages H through L (postscript: through R) and U through Z. - -sche (discuss) 19:51, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
  • You are so wonderfully diligent. If this were Wikipedia, I'd give you some annoying barnstar, but since it's here, you just get my gratitude. As for the points you've raised: the languages you've bolded are obscure enough that it may not be possible to do better for now; I see that Ende is discussed in a book called Deskripsi naskah dan sejarah perkembangan aksara Ende, Flores, Nusa Tenggara Timur, but finding that online appears to be no easy feat. As for the renames, it makes sense not to have a language called "Batak" alone. Google Ngrams show "speak Kiribati" as being insignificant as compared to "speak Gilbertese", but Google Books show more results for "speak Kiribati"; I for one have always called it Gilbertese, and it does seem that the switch has only happened in perhaps the last decade. On the whole, it doesn't seem worth changing. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
    • I'll second the gratitude. As for Kiribati, the name isn't any more aboriginal than Gilbertese- it actually is Gilbertese (or Gilbert, anyway) modified by the phonotactics of the language. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:49, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
      • :)
        I learned the other day about the etymology of Kiribati — it makes me wonder what the language was called before its speakers met Gilbert!
        Plain "Kiribati" is considerably more common than "Gilbertese", but I suppose that's due to the fact that the former is also an often-mentioned placename. I'm fine with leaving the language name as is. By the way, I didn't keep a count, but I think (ignoring the hyphens he adds) Blust's spellings turned out more often than not to be the spellings other scholars used. - -sche (discuss) 07:30, 29 February 2016 (UTC)


Hello, -sche.

  • Just removing ik from the "German Low German" section is not justified and not sufficient as long as there is ik#Plautdietsch. And the proper way to get that entry removed should be to use WT:RfV. Dit un jant opp Plautdietsch has the form ik (e.g. in "Ut de Nacht bün ik kamen") besides ekj. So maybe it's a valid Plautdietsch form.
    Please use WT:RfV if you think that it is not a Plautdietsch word.
  • Wikipedia says that Plautdietsch is an East Low German dialect. So it should be a dialect and not "a separate language". As the German East isn't next to the Netherlands, it should rather be a German Low German dialect and not a Dutch Low German dialect. But well, as the dialect spread through the world, one maybe could argue that it's not German anymore but a (World) Low German dialect.

Greetings, Ikiaika (talk) 04:34, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

==Plautdietsch== (pdt) and ==German Low German== (nds-de) are currently treated as separate languages which are related, like Danish and Norwegian, and for that matter ==Norwegian== and ==Norwegian Nynorsk== and ==Norwegian Bokmal==. Separate languages are not obliged to be linked to each other, and are not supposed to be linked as ===Alternative forms===; they are often mentioned in etymology sections, and sometimes linked in ===See also===.
If you think Plautdietsch should not be considered a separate language, that's another matter; you can see my comments on WT:T:ANDS and Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2016/April#Let.27s_kill_nds-de.2Fnds-nl. about it.
If you can find Plautdietsch works which use ik, that's great, and means ik#Plautdietsch doesn't need to be RFVed.
I can find German Low German works from Oldenburg and Münsterland which use ik, so ik#German_Low_German is fine, too (and was never removed, despite your comment).
- -sche (discuss) 19:52, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
  • So it rather was "is treated by the English Wiktionary as a separate language" than "is a separate language". Ok, that's a different thing.
    — Although, I have the impression that the German Low German label "in most dialects, including Low Prussian" includes Plautdietsch as a Low Prussian variety. But well, maybe there are no German Low German labels which clearly include Plautdietsch.
  • In this edit you moved Plautdietsch from "Alternative forms" into "See also" (I don't object to this), and also removed the mentioning of the (purportedly) Plautdietsch form ik. But the removal is not justified and not sufficient as long as there is ik#Plautdietsch.
    Well, Dit un jant opp Plautdietsch is just one book, so it wouldn't give three cites which usually are needed to attest a word. Also I can't read the whole book, so the usages of ik could be dated or maybe aren't Plautdietsch as the book could also include German Low German. That is, I don't say Plautdietsch ik is attestable or exists. I'm just saying that it might exist and that Wiktionary says it exists (ik#Plautdietsch).
  • ik occurs in many dialects. But I can't say in which dialects it is attestable for the English Wiktionary (three durably archived cites). For example, this poem has ik too and is from Ravensberg which is in the East of Westphalia. So ik should also appear in East Westphalian. "Niu lustert mol! Plattdeutsche Erzählungen und Anekdoten im Paderborner Dialekt" (1870) from ein Sohn der rothen Erde (a son of the red earth) has ik too, and maybe also ick. But it's just one book, which usually is not sufficient to attest the Paderbornish form.
Greetings, Ikiaika (talk) 00:59, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
Minor note @Ikiaika: Some of this issue stems from your misunderstanding of CFI. We only need one cite to attest a word in a Low German lect, and it can be in a dictionary, not necessarily a use. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:05, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
"Low Prussian" is the variety which was spoken inside Prussia. (It seems to be mentioned frequently because comprehensive references on it are readily available, probably in turn because it had some prestige as the variety of a large leading state.) Plautdietsch is the variety developed outside Prussia among certain (largely Mennonite) emigrants. Wiktionary has tended to keep lects with such different geographic and hence historical development separate, especially among Germanic languages (as I note on WT:T:ANDS) — indeed, we even keep cases spoken in the same place separate (as we keep Nynorsk, Bokmal, Riksmal, and other rural dialects of Norwegian separate under three codes). Merger proposals often prove controversial and get squicky fast; e.g., what would be the rationale for merging the separate(d) lects of GLG and Plautdietsch, but keeping Luxembourgish and T Saxon separate from not only other Moselle Franconian but also all the other varied things we group under gmw-cfr? But what would be the rationale for merging Luxembourgish? The rationale for keeping them all separate is of course the separate geographic/national linguistic development. - -sche (discuss) 15:02, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Yes, I didn't know how many cites where needed for Low German, and "usually" above refered to the practice of e.g. English and German, not to e.g. Latin and dead languages like Gothic and Old High German. Thanks for the info! That makes many things much easier.
@-sche: (1.) Well, I didn't have the impression that Low Prussian has any more prestige or was or is more common than other dialects (though that might be a wrong impression), and one one can find statements like this:
  • "Plautdietsch, das Niederdeutsch aus Westpreußen mit einer über 200 Jahre alten Migrationsgeschichte" (Plautdietsch, the Low German from West Prussia ...)
  • "Plautdietsch ist [...] eine niederpreußische Mundart" (Plautdietsch is [...] a Low Prussian dialect)
  • German Wikipedia: "Plautdietsch ist [...] eine niederpreußische Varietät" (Plautdietsch is [...] a Low Prussian variety), "den ostniederdeutschen Dialekt Plautdietsch" (the East Low German dialect Plautdietsch)
  • English Wikipedia: "Plautdietsch, a Low German variety, is included within Low Prussian by some observers"
That's why I (incorrectly) added Plautdietsch forms as German Low German alternative forms. Similary some sources or some user could have labeled Plautdietsch terms East Low German or Low Prussian. Here at Wiktionary this label would be incorrect as Plautdietsch is not treated as a part of German Low German or Low German (like you said, thanks for that!), but nevertheless it could be present in some entries. For me that seemed more plausible (again, it might just be a wrong impression).
Just for clarification: It might just a wrong impression, and I'm not saying that there is any error in an entry and I'm not saying that any or even all Low Prussian labels here should be checked.
(2.) Well, Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian here are merged into Serbo-Croatian. The rationale for this surely was the linguistic similarity, even though there are different nations. So maybe for the same reason Plautdietsch could be merged into Low German as a Low German dialect. I don't have enough knowledge of Luxembourgish, Serbo-Croation, Low Prussian and Plautdietsch to argue for or against any of this, and I have no intention of making a split or merger proposal.
(3.) I re-added Plautdietsch ik next to the qualifier Plautdietsch in diff as there is the Plautdietsch entry ik (ik#Plautdietsch). I'm okay with a re-removal of it, but please use WT:RfV first. Than both, the mentiong next to the qualifier and the entry ik#Plautdietsch, can either stay or be removed.
Thanks, and greetings, Ikiaika (talk) 01:24, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Oh, yes, mislabelling certainly could be present in some entries. Ideally, all nds, nds-de and nds-nl entries' labels would be checked and expanded (and perhaps replaced with a table as discussed on WT:T:ANDS), because many are far too short even when they contain only correct things and no incorrect things: the people who added them apparently weren't sure which dialects besides their own a word or spelling was found in, and so only listed the few dialects they were sure of, which is not entirely unhelpful, but is insufficient.
It is possible that some Plautdietsch-only things have been entered under a wrong header; we've certainly had a few Kashubian words entered as Polish because older dictionaries treat Kashubian as Polish. And quite a few apparently Middle-English- and/or Scots-only words have been entered as English, because some dictionaries (including the OED) don't distinguish those three languages.
Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian are copies of the same Eastern Herzegovinian subdialect of the same Shtokavian dialect, and are so identical that their mutual intelligibility "exceeds that between the standard variants of English, French, German, or Spanish" (per WP, quoting Paul-Louis Thomas). I don't think they provide an argument for merging anything else, heh. :-p
I'll assume that ik is used in Plautdietsch based on the book you found above. It'd be nice to figure out more specifically who uses it, because standard references all seem to have only ekj / etj, but it's not a pressing concern. - -sche (discuss) 19:06, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Well, I only saw a snippet of the book, and the book could have a Low German text in it (maybe similar to this, which has Plautdietsch with a Dutch translation) or an older Plautdietsch text, like from some kind of *Proto-Plautdietsch when Dutch and Low German where mixing and creating Plautdietsch.
In diff the Plautdietsch entry ik got extracted from the Low German entry. In older versions, like from 25th December 2010, there is no Low German entry but a Low Saxon entry. There it was "Ik kwam, ik zag, ik overwon (nl), Ik keem, ik keek, ik wun (pd)". In diff the nl example got replaced by nds. pd could have meant Low German (Plautdeutsch or Plattdütsch/Plattdüütsch), including both Dutch and German Low German. So it once could have been an Dutch or German Low German example, while later someone misinterpreted the abbreviation and it developed into an Plautdietsch entry. nl:ik#Nedersaksisch has the example as Nedersaksisch.
Based on this I'm using WT:RfV, see WT:RFV#ik.23Plautdietsch.
Greetings, Ikiaika (talk) 12:53, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Properly splitting topic and set categories[edit]

I would like to work on a proposal for this, but there's several issues to sort out first. I'm hoping you can help with this. There are two other issues which are also at play with these categories, which have come up before. First is the matter of naming the "by language" topical categories. They have literally no naming scheme, and we've occasionally run into naming conflicts with these, so adding something to the names so that they are clearly set apart as topic/set categories is useful. Second is the matter of the language codes in the names. All our other categories use language names, and people have complained about the presence of codes in user-facing parts of the dictionary before. If we're going to rename the categories, we might as well tackle all issues together, so that we don't have to rename the categories multiple times. —CodeCat 17:47, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes, this is a tricky tangle of issues. I will look back over previous discussions to refresh myself on what potential problems have been pointed out with some of the previously-proposed solutions. I agree with you that it would be useful — necessary, really — to add something to the the names of both types of categories, so that they can finally be told apart, and so that we avoid naming conflicts. Maybe we could have a poll to gauge if people would prefer quick-to-type prefixes like "t:" and "s:"/"l:", or spelled-out prefixes "topic:" and "set:"/"list:", and also if they would prefer spelled-out language names or codes. I know some people dislike language codes, but other people dislike long names, and codes are shorter (and code-based categories don't have to be moved when we rename languages, a minor benefit). If we used spelled-out names, we should probably set them off by colons (maybe someone has already suggested this), because renaming CAT:en:Dogs to "Category:s:English dogs" or "Category:list:English dogs" or even "Category:English dogs" makes it seem like it's for England's breeds only. But should the subcategory of "Category:Dogs" be "set:English:Dogs" or "English:set:Dogs"? I guess the second one is maybe more logical from a sorting perspective?
- -sche (discuss) 03:00, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
I wouldn't like shortcuts like t: and s: because these categories are meant to be understandable for the average user. —CodeCat 15:20, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
@CodeCat Alright, but I expect some people to balk at lengthening the category names.
Where should the language name go, in your view? "CAT:topic:English:Dogs" or "CAT:English:topic:Dogs"? (Or something else?) I'm thinking "CAT:English:" may make more sense, matching "CAT:English nouns" etc and like the current "en:Foobar" scheme, grouping all the English categories together as having "English" at the start of their names. Is there anything else that needs to be worked out before bringing this up for general discussion?
- -sche (discuss) 18:35, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
Personally, I would prefer using full language names ("English", "Chinese" instead of "en", "zh") and writing categories as normal phrases, without the colon anywhere. For example:
--Daniel Carrero (talk) 20:05, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
I know other people object to long names, however, especially for categories that are often added manually rather than automatically templates ({{rfi}}, etc). More people should use HotCat, obviously. Or {{C}} et al, which unfortunately don't play nice with HotCat. Someone should update HotCat...
"Names of" may sound off in some cases — would the "E numbers" discussed on RFM be "Translingual names of E numbers"? That's not awful, but it seems like calling "1" an "English name of a number", and/or a "Translingual name of a number". But "Translingual/English list" [of Foobars] doesn't sound great, either.
"Pertaining to" may be better than "relating to", since "related" in "Related terms" means etymologically related. - -sche (discuss) 18:49, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
"Pertaining to" sounds fine with me. Maybe "involving" can be considered too? Here are all the options:
What do you think of using "names of" for proper nouns, including place names? I've been thinking this may be a good idea, but feel free to give other ideas. Examples:
I know that some languages treat language names as common nouns, so I'm not sure this works in all cases. Days of the week also have that problem (Category:en:Days of the weekCategory:English names of days of the week). --Daniel Carrero (talk) 22:43, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
I think "involving" is a bit weird. Anything can involve dogs in theory. The police trains dogs, so they are involved with dogs, but we don't want police in that category. Going back to the proposal of using a prefix to indicate the category type, we could use "related" instead of "topic", so Category:English:related:Dogs. Yet more possibilities are Category:English:Dogs (breeds), Category:topic:Dogs (English) and such. —CodeCat 20:40, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Now that you said it, I think I agree with you in that "involving" is a bit weird. I'm not really sure I like any of the prefixes, but I'd be curious if other people want it. (any large scale category change would need a vote, so we're going to see what people think) I know we've been saying "topical categories" to refer to the categories starting with "en:" but I'm not sure I like it. Category:topic:Dogs (English) is short but is it clear enough? If we translated it to a phrase like Category:English terms in the topic of dogs would it make any sense? So far, I like Category:English terms relating to dogs the most. I think it's clear enough that it's related to the idea (the semantics), not the etymology. If it were Category:English terms relating to "dog", it would be the etymology. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 21:47, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
We could look to other Wiktionaries for inspiration. Dutch Wiktionary literally just has "Biology in English" with its parent "Topics in English". Their grammatical categories are named the same, "Words in English" (equivalent to our "English lemmas"; they had it before us!), also singular in "Verb in English", "Noun in English" etc. —CodeCat 22:01, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
For the record, the earlier incarnation of Category:English lemmas called Category:English parts of speech was created in 14 July 2004, so it apparently predated nl:Categorie:Woorden in het Engels by a few months! (I believe you can't see deleted page histories right now, so FWIW I support restoring your and Wyang's admin rights.)
Portuguese Wiktionary has pt:Categoria:!Entrada (Inglês) for Category:English lemmas. They basically always use the format "Stuff (Language)", sometimes starting with that exclamation point.
About "Biology in English". I would support creating separate categories for these two things: 1. Category:English biology jargon, Category:English medicine jargon, etc.; 2. Category:English terms relating to biology, Category:English terms relating to medicine, etc. (or "in the topic of" or "pertaining to"...) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 23:12, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Schwa na[edit]

Well, I did send you an e-mail. Evertype (talk) 22:32, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Are there any updates? --WikiTiki89 13:49, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Hi! Thank you for that e-mail, @Evertype. I passed the contact information along to @Mahagaja, who I presumed would e-mail you and take it from there, because he is more familiar with the Hebrew script than I am. I should've e-mailed you to explain that's what I had done; I apologize. - -sche (discuss) 16:44, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Hi, I had forgotten about this for a while, but I did eventually remember and e-mailed Evertype last night. My bad, sorry! —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 18:03, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

CFI for chemical formulae[edit]

We've had some spirited debates in the past (Talk:AsH₃, Talk:LiBr), but there's still no consensus for what to do with entries like MnS and H₂O₂ (note that the former is English, the latter Translingual). Any thoughts on what sort of proposal might meet with consensus? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 13:14, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd appreciate others' input as it's not my area of expertise, but:
  • It seems, including from the two discussions you link to, like there's more support for ones that look like they could be abbreviations (like LiBr) than ones that are obviously formulas (with numbers in them). And the longer a name gets, or the more obviously formulaic it is (e.g. having parentheses), the less accepted I would expect it to be. Maybe we could straw-poll and see if there'd be agreement for any cutoff "no formulae consisting of more than 3 parts" (or some other number), where "H₃" counts as one "part", and "no formulas with any parentheticals" (or "with more than 2", or something).
  • There seems to be support for a few really common ones that are used in everyday speech like Talk:CO₂ and H₂O (which even passes the lemming test, being in Meriam-Webster, which doesn't include LiBr).
  • Maybe, similar to how BRAND requires brand names to be attestable in places that don't clarify what the product is, we could require these to be attested in contexts that don't make clear that they're formulae by e.g. explicitly discussing chemical formulae or by listing their component parts. So, "AsH₃ is made up of an As and three H atoms" wouldn't support AsH₃, but a murder mystery saying "the air in his scuba tank had been replaced with CO2" could support CO₂.
  • Some of the comments in the RFD discussions suggest there might be more support for ones that have "unpredictable" common names like alabandite than for ones that refer to also-formulaically-named chemicals like S4N4 being "tetrasulfur tetranitride", but maybe that wouldn't be a wise or widely accepted distinction, as there are some long formulas with short unformulaic names (fornacite's Pb2Cu(CrO4)(AsO4)(OH)), and conversely CO₂ is "carbon dioxide".
  • Maybe for long chemical formulae that have short/unformulaic common names we include, we could redirect the formula to the common name, to satisfy people who want to be able to type the formula into the search box and get information. (We could have a redirect from the full chemical formula of titin...)
  • We should include redirects from "normal" numbers to subscript numbers (or vice versa) for any that we include.
Incidentally, is our definition of MnS right? Alabandite and our entry alabandite suggest it's only one form of MnS. - -sche (discuss) 15:44, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
I like the BRANDy idea, because it limits us to ones in common use. I don't like that it means sending everything through RFV. A clear cutoff would make for a very straightforward rule, but is there anything it would exclude that we'd want to keep? Also, I fixed MnS.Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:18, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Sorry to insert myself in a conversation where I may not be welcome (this page was on my watchlist from a past convo), but out of curiosity I began running our Category:mul:Chemical_formulae for BRANDesque-worthy citations, and all of the ones I've checked thus far pass. The complication I ran into is whether to count instances where a chemical is named with the formula in parenthesis (e.g. "carbonic acid (H2CO3)"), whereafter only the formula is used as shorthand--much like acronyms for things like companies, documents and organizations. --SanctMinimalicen (talk) 01:56, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I think looking at spoken usage would help- we say "cee oh 2", but I don't think people say "em n ess". Of course that really doesn't fit into our current verification / deletion policies. DTLHS (talk) 18:27, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether that would work or not. On Talk:CO₂, Shinji mentions that idea, opining that we would naturally say "see-oh-two gas" but not "aitch-two gas"; OTOH, I think that many formulae would be read as letters, and indeed for more obscure ones, if a speaker doesn't know offhand what the letters stand for, they have no choice but to say "army scientists were working on an ay-ess-aitch-three gas", etc. - -sche (discuss) 18:59, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
I think a starting point would be treating chemical formulae as if they were spelled with spaces, so they would be considered SOP unless proven idiomatic. You would want evidence that a formula is a label for a concept, rather than simply an ingredient list (e.g. is H2SO4 sulfuric acid or is it whatever you get when you combine 2 hydrogens, a sulfur and 4 oxygens?). Chuck Entz (talk) 22:30, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
All formulae are "ingredient lists" by definition; some map to a single concept like H2SO4, some map to no concept because they're physically impossible, and some map to multiple concepts like MnS. What they map to is dependent on the physical laws of the universe, not anything linguistic. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:18, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
By "concept", I meant a lexically-significant concept, something that speakers have in mind beyond the mere chemical identification of the compound- somewhat like the difference between 10 Downing Street or 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and 1600 Main Street for street addresses. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:01, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

in the blue[edit]

I saw this in an article yesterday from the Express.

The Christian Democratic Union (CDU) politician [Kai Whittaker] said it was still unclear in Berlin what the essence of the disagreement between the Chancellor and Mr Seehofer was and that other members of the coalition had been left "in the blue".

In normal English I'd expect "in the dark", of course. Is "in the blue" a calque of a German expression? DCDuring (talk) 21:18, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm not calling to mind any direct counterpart (the phrase I'm used to seeing is im Dunkeln lassen, as in English), but maybe I'm having a brain fart. Several German idioms do use blue this way, e.g. ein Schuss ins Blaue for a shot in the dark (and ins Blaue schießen — would you say shoot into the dark?), ins Blaue fahren, and eine Fahrt ins Blaue which English apparently calls a "mystery tour", aus blauer Luft, and the closest thing that comes to mind, ins Blaue hinein (haphazardly, without a plan/preparation or goal).
If you're interested, William Jervis Jones has a book on German Colour Terms, including about idiomatic meanings (he says that, starting in at least the 14th century, blue was linked to "distance or vagueness"), although I'm sceptical of at least of few of his analyses of idioms where the colour seems rather literal instead.
English apparently also sometimes uses "blue" idiomatically, though (besides just in "out of the blue"), because I see e.g. a book titled "Out in the Blue: Letters from Arabia, 1937 to 1940", and
  • 1978, Peter Hathaway Capstick, Death in the Long Grass (→ISBN):
    "The problem with buffalo as well as most African antelopes as a steady diet is that they have very little marbling or body fat and, after six months out in the blue, one dreams at night of a T-bone steak sizzling in great globules of yellow fat."
I see that other (English) dictionaries have a sense we're lacking, "the far/remote distance", with usexes about vanishing or disappearing into the blue, which might cover the quotes about Arabia and Africa. - -sche (discuss) 22:59, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
I just noticed that w:Kai Whitaker's comments were on BBC World at One. He has a British father and a German mother and got a degree from the University of Bristol. His comments must have been in English, but they struck the Express's reporter as odd enough to put them in quotes. He apparently used blue in this sense twice in the course of his comments.
He may just have picked up on out of the blue and something like wild blue yonder, combined it with the use of Blau in German expressions and assumed that he was speaking idiomatic English. I don't think that we should count it as attestation for any sense of blue. I don't see MWOnline or Century have a definition that could enable blue to fit in to in the dark, which seems closest to what he probably meant, based on the context.
Thanks for your thoughts. I doubt that I could borrow a copy of the German Color Terms book. I'm trying to stop buying such books (and things in general). DCDuring (talk) 00:21, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Lexicography requests?[edit]

Hello, I just saw your edits to absolute and I thought it was some excellent work, so I was wondering if I could come to you with requests about overhauling particularly lacking English entries every once in a while. I totally get it if you don't, after seeing the amount of redlinks on your page haha. If you're interested, I would ask you to take a look at inconsistent. Ultimateria (talk) 14:56, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

You're welcome to make requests. :) I may or may not have time to fulfill them, but I'll give it a shot! I've taken a crack at inconsistent. (It may still be missing a mathematical sense, for "inconsistent equations".) - -sche (discuss) 19:38, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
@Kiwima should be able to help with that missing sense. (And feel free to ping me for anything in the natural sciences.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:40, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the edits! Per utramque cavernam 21:02, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the edit, -sche, and for the offer, Meta! I've been around forever but I'm *very* slowly building up a network of support haha Ultimateria (talk) 13:22, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Can you look at disservice now? I want to add some cites, but the defs aren't very good. Ultimateria (talk) 18:51, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I've combined all the definitions, some of which didn't make sense ("ill office"?); I suppose service that unintentionally proves detrimental could be split from service that is intentionally injurious, but none of the other dictionaries I checked have more than one sense. - -sche (discuss) 20:23, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
  • I would like to request some rewriting at salty. It has a somewhat unprofessional air at the moment. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:34, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
    I've been thinking about how to tweak it, sorry for not replying sooner. It seems difficult to distinguish "Irritated, annoyed" from "Indignant or offended". I might just cut "said of interlocutors expressing indignation, or merely disagreement" altogether, merge the senses and move the etymological theories to the etymology: "Sense _ is perhaps from the sharp, spicy flavor of salt, or from the salty tears a person so described is accused of crying." - -sche (discuss) 07:08, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Could you take a look at reverential? I especially can't figure out the relationship between it and reverent. Ultimateria (talk) 17:52, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
    Hmm, this is an interesting case, because some authorities claim a difference, but there doesn't seem to be one in practice, at least that I've been able to discern so far. I've put my findings at Talk:reverent. - -sche (discuss) 22:30, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

New Austronesian language codes[edit]

Hello! I heard you are good with creating new language codes and extending ancestor trees. Could you do the following?

  • Create Proto-Central Malayo-Polynesian, Proto-Flores-Sumba-Hawu, Proto-Sumba-Hawu, Proto-Sumba.
  • Add a bunch of Sumbanese languages as descendants of all these proto-languages? Kambera (xbr), Wanukaka (wnk), Wewewa (wew), Lamboya (lmy), Kodi (kod). Ketiga123 (talk) 17:27, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
Proto-Central Malayo-Polynesian was deleted as a separate language and merged into Proto-Central-Eastern Malayo-Polynesian last year following Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2018/February#Proto-Central_Malayo-Polynesian and Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2015/January#Redundant_Austronesian_entities. Are the others valid genetic (not areal) groupings, and not redundant / excessively fine-grained? I don't know if I have time to check right now. User:Tropylium, I think you are our resident expert (or one of them, at least), do you have an opinion on which of these should be added? - -sche (discuss) 00:33, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
While I don't know much about the CMP area in particular, as a rule of thumb, Glottolog agrees on recognizing the Sumba, Sumba-Hawu and Flores-Sumba-Hawu groups, which seems like a good enough starting point. Also consider though how different these stages are from each other: if only slightly, I'd like to remind OP about the possibility to treat some proto-languages as dialects of others. --Tropylium (talk) 13:52, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
@Tropylium: I am not sure I am following your line of thought. Are you suggesting to place Flores-Sumba-Hawu directly under Central-Eastern Malayo-Polynesian? Ketiga123 (talk) 16:11, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
Unless there have been some kind of new arguments in favor of treating CMP (or something else) as a real subgroup and not just an areal unit within ECMP, then yes. --Tropylium (talk) 16:37, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
Alright. Can we create the rest of the groupings? I am planing to expand Lamboya and Wanukaka a bit later. Ketiga123 (talk) 18:08, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

krakum/krakun and ya(b)bos[edit]

The translation table of turkey gives krakum for Akan (not Aukan!), whose initial cluster is a good match for Sranan Tongo krakun. Do you know whether a direct descent of the Sranan term from Akan is likely, as opposed to a borrowing from Dutch (which I suppose is possible, l > r is especially common)? A Twi influence on the Surinamese creoles is generally accepted as far as I know. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:03, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for necroposting, but do you know whether Akan or Dutch influence is more probable or do you know whom I could best ask about it? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:25, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
@Lingo Bingo Dingo: I'm sorry, I couldn't find anything before, and was about to say I still couldn't (this dictionary says nothing about the etymology and this thesis merely compares Carib karakuna to Arawak kalakona and Sranan krakun and Dutch kalkoen without explaining the nature of the connection, which is probably that all of them descend in some form from the Dutch word), but I did spot something in Amsterdam Creole Studies, vol. 1-5 (1977), page 29, a wordlist of words borrowed from English or Dutch, which links krakún to kalkoen, saying:
fláka follow (Du. volgen)
tron turn
bron burn
Sranán Sur(i)name
krabéri corbel (Du. karbeel)
wróko work
krakun turkey (Du. kalkoen)
In fact, it seems as though metathesis of / r / has taken place in almost every case where a / V r C / cluster occurred in the lexifier language. This includes cases where a morpheme boundary occurred between the liquid and the C in the lexifier:
krofáya charcoal (E. coal fire)
It is true, as Voorhoeve (1961) remarks, that the syncope of lightly stressed vowels in Sranan is a common []
- -sche (discuss) 17:47, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Also, the item yabos on your wanted list seems like a rare form of yabbos. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:03, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

latine, latino, latina[edit]

hi -sche, about the latine, latino and latina noun status. surely all three would be nouns with sentences like "Los latinos hablan español." "Latinos speak Spanish." being possible. I'm on the newer side of Spanish so I could be wrong, but take "Briton" Briton which is a noun "that is a Brition" and then take "que es un latino" or "that is a Latino". I do agree however, whatever the concensus is with one, should be the consensus of all three. Thanks --Bejakyo (talk) 04:09, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

(Just a note that, persuaded by your comment and noticing that we have e.g. romano as a noun even if es.Wikt doesn;t, I added noun sections to the other two entries.) - -sche (discuss) 05:15, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
thanking you very kindly! Bejakyo (talk) 00:27, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Comment at bruja[edit]

You're getting your crappy editors mixed up: that sense was added by Ndołkah (talkcontribsglobal account infodeleted contribsnukeedit filter logpage movesblockblock logactive blocks), who seems to have been Gtroy (talkcontribsglobal account infodeleted contribsnukeedit filter logpage movesblockblock logactive blocks) / Luciferwildcat (talkcontribsglobal account infodeleted contribsnukeedit filter logpage movesblockblock logactive blocks). The combination of Spanish and Wicca is almost diagnostic. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:52, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Wow! I don't think I realized Ndołkah was a vandal, let alone a previously-known one. (Then again, I don't suppose my editing area and his overlapped much recently, for me to notice.) Thanks for the heads up. I also did poke around and find a couple books using bruja to refer to Wiccan witches, so I'm not going to RFV it per se, although I might merge it. I notice witch has no separate sense for Wicca (although I suspect that the note that references to men are "archaic" outside dialects and Wicca may need to be changed to say "uncommon" or something). - -sche (discuss) 05:14, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
He was trying very hard to behave and work from dictionaries, which is why I left him alone. He just couldn't help dipping back into the incompetent Spanish, Wicca and scatological edits, which put him on the radar for Equinox, who mentioned it to Metaknowledge, who blocked him. He never was, strictly speaking, a vandal, just careless and clueless and unwilling to listen or improve. Vandals are easy to deal with. The real damage is done by the people who think they're improving things. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:45, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Its nobody0012[edit]

Why didnt you just move the text instead of deleting it? Nobody0012 (talk) 07:46, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Move it to where? - -sche (discuss) 07:59, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
Presumably someplace where dictionaries screaming at themselves IN ALL CAPS is considered normal... Chuck Entz (talk) 08:05, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

y- verb forms[edit]

Just as an explanation: quite a few of these were used by Edmund Spenser (deliberately harking back to an older form of English); that is why they appear in Chambers (which aims to cover "Shakespeare to the present day") and were known to me via the official Scrabble words. Equinox 22:38, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

I suppose they've also fallen victim to our evolving criteria, no longer allowing one well-known work to cite things. Still, some do seem to be attested. Others, for which I didn't even spot Spenser cites, I reheadered as Middle English. But the ones with only 1-2 cites, from Spenser or Foxe, I'm sending to RFV. - -sche (discuss) 22:47, 26 January 2020 (UTC)


I've been doing my best to deal with a new user from Poland who's been adding Lakota entries, but I'm a bit out of my depth. I took a 10-week American Indian Languages class in the late '80s that included a brief lesson each week in Lakota, so I've been able to spot some very basic problems- but that's about it. I simply don't have the time needed to get up to speed and fix their mistakes. Have you worked with Dakotan languages? I could sure use some help. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 23:41, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed response. Sadly, I have no Lakota-specific training, but I have some resources and will see if I can help. - -sche (discuss) 02:51, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
Lots of them need to be moved to lowercase forms, and I'm getting a bit tired of doing it, but any admin can. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:00, 15 February 2020 (UTC)



Can we get an update of Wiktionary:Todo/interfixes? --AcpoKrane (talk) 01:24, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. - -sche (discuss) 03:34, 15 February 2020 (UTC)


Hello -sche, thank you for the explanation in your edit summary, the ticket is in the info-en queue. I can't disclose much per w:WP:OUTING, But is it possible to capitalize black? There was no such request by the customer, it just sounds biased, since the rest of the races have the proper capitalization. Thank you. GSS (talk) 08:38, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

pickled black olive[edit]

haha do you ever think we should have WP:GAME policy? Equinox 06:15, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Heh, feel free to RFD it... but since multiple users commented suggesting that just being a food made a string keepable... - -sche (discuss) 06:21, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
Don't be Wonderfool and create the set of every pickleable food! Why couldn't you raise this in the RFD instead of making more paperwork? (Maybe you did; I haven't followed that one.) BOO HISS. Equinox 06:23, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
FWIW, I did bring this up (by name!) in the RFD, in a comment that pinged one of the keep voters, and only created the one entry (and, later, the other) when it seemed people were unchanged in the view that including foods was the way to go. (Also: hey, a fellow user of boo hiss!😃) - -sche (discuss) 07:08, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Archiving from RFM[edit]

I feel rather stupid asking this, but I really can't remember where language renaming/splitting/merging/retiring discussions should be archived. I'm creating some new ones, so I thought that maybe I would go and clean up some of the old ones while I'm at it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:20, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

I believe it's WT:LTD. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:27, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
Yep. :) I suppose this is an opportunity to consider linking to it from some more places to make it more findable, heh. - -sche (discuss) 17:26, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. Scanning it over I think I see some discussions that were archived without any action (or explicit decision for inaction) having taken place, like with Baïnounk Gubëeher. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:36, 10 March 2020 (UTC)


I understand your point – and after my last edits, I later saw the archived RFD discussion over male prostitute, which unfortunately I did not get to contribute to. I personally think that it is overly delicate to pretend that the word is gender-neutral, when from a historical point of view it isn't – and even now, it has heavy connotations of referring to a woman. The OED does not record any use of "male prostitute" until more than 150 years after the word first appeared, and no use of "prostitute" (without qualification) to refer to a man before the late 20th century. This is IMO an issue with many two-word terms involving "male", where compound nouns are referring to occupations stereotypically or traditionally associated with women (male nurse, male model etc etc) and I think they should all have entries because this is interesting, dateable semantic information. At the moment, the Usage note at prostitute almost makes it sound as though the interpretations of the word have to do with a person's politics or open-mindedness, which I think is beside the point when it comes to ways the word is actually used in the record. Ƿidsiþ 12:55, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

It seems to me that we tend to start out conceptually with a norm or type, then label things by the characteristics that distinguish them from the type. I like to use the linguistic concept of the marked category here: just as the first person singular in the present tense is the unmarked category in the context of English verbs, a female prostitute, being what is considered the norm, is the unmarked category. Other tenses are marked morphologically in the case of verbs, and other genders are marked with qualifiers in the case of prostitutes. The same goes with doctors and nurses: the tendency is to think of a doctor as male and a nurse as female so the only time we use a qualifier is for female doctors and male nurses. Even when we manage to teach ourselves to think of female doctors and male nurses as just as normal as the opposite, we still are much more likely to use a qualifier for those, as if "female nurse" is redundant, but "male nurse" isn't. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:08, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Hmm; I see your point. (Indeed, I now recall reading that one of the difficulties the 'legal' system had with a certain medieval male-to-female sex worker I was reading about was that in the medieval mind, the book asserted, a male who took money for sex couldn't be a prostitute.) I do think we need a gender-agnostic sense, though, and I don't think a male-specific sense is right: I don't think there's anywhere that "prostitute" means exclusively a male and a female sex worker would not be included, I think the split in senses is "any person" (including someone who's not an [adult] man or woman but is a child prostitute, or someone who is a non-binary one or a google books:"robot prostitute", etc) vs "only a woman", not "only a woman" vs "only a man". What about this? (To Chuck's point, should we just drop the usage note at this point?) - -sche (discuss) 22:41, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
I don't think it's a case for subsenses. Maybe the defdate is a good call – I've never seen that done before, but it makes sense. On reflection, I think "a person, especially a woman" is a fair way of handling the definition, if the Usage note is more dispassionately worded. I think re-creating such terms as male prostitute would also help illustrate how it's used in practice, but I find those RFD discussions so exhausting nowadays.. Ƿidsiþ 07:31, 17 March 2020 (UTC)


I think that this is not a given name, I'm not able to find uses of this given name.The spelling of the given name is Rose (standard pronunciation: ʁoz, possibly ʁɔz in some regions). I assume that the surname Roze is also pronounced ʁoz but I'm not familiar with it...) Lmaltier (talk) 15:56, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, OK. Thanks for the input. Is it common to use surnames in compound given names? I can find Roze in various compound given names (including occasionally spaced ones) like "Marie Roze" (full name "Marie Roze Adam"), "Jeanne-Roze-Catherine", "Roze-Catherine", "Roze-Marie", etc:
  • 1901, Bulletin de la Société d'agriculture, sciences et arts de la Sarthe, page 74:
    [] , fils de Me Jacques Amiot. avocat au présidial du Mans, et de Roze-Marie Houeau, nommé par Me Honorat Lepeltier, []
- -sche (discuss) 16:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)


Merhaba, sınalgı sözcüğü Türkçe'de hiçbir zaman var olmamıştır. Yalnızca Kırgızca'dan Türkçe'ye sokmaya çalışan sahtekarlar var. Birkaç grup varmış gibi göstermeye çalışıyorlar.--123snake45 (talk) 23:39, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Caucasian languages[edit]

Hi. Please be careful with Caucasian languages. Reliable sources in English are few. The article Èrsh language is garbage. Next, "Jek language" is the same as Kryts: see w:ru:Крызский язык. --Vahag (talk) 03:24, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

FYI, @Vahagn Petrosyan, those have been sitting there for quite some time, and -sche is one of the only people who will do this kind of thankless work. Expert input is desperately needed, but that means citing references and translating or summarising pertinent passages from them, rather than just telling -sche to be careful (which they are, but we all make mistakes). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:39, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I know it is a very difficult and niche work and I am not blaming sche for relying on English Wikipedia.

I propose not to create any new language code until someone working on that language feels the need and asks for the code. That way ghost language codes will not be created. Vahag (talk) 05:18, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate the feedback. :) I did notice that Russian Wikipedia redirected its article on Jek to Kryts, but I also noticed that the article said a lot of literature has considered them separate languages.
As for Èrsh, I noticed how sceptical the English article was of the existence of the people, and intended to at least find concrete statements in literature that a certain placename or word was Èrsh before creating it (I went back and forth on whether to ping you about them; I should've), since I mostly only add codes when I've identified content to be added. (In the case of Jek, I took the video Wikipedia has as demonstrating that content exists, even if it's not currently in a form [writing] that we could add, heh.) I take it I should remove the code for Jek, and just list Jek, Alyk etc as OtherNames for kry? - -sche (discuss) 05:54, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, please add those as other names or varieties of Kryts. Vahag (talk) 06:33, 2 August 2020 (UTC)


Hi, I have found that Proto-Witotoan, Proto-Huitoto-Ocaina and Proto-Bora-Muinane don't have language codes yet. Because of that, I cannot add an etymology to moo (which obviously is inherited from Proto-Huitoto-Ocaina *mōhō). For now, I have added the etymology as a comment, but could that be reviewed? Thadh (talk) 19:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC) Same thing with ei, requiring two codes Thadh (talk) 19:47, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@Thadh OK, you say moo is from Proto-Huitoto-Ocaina *mōhō, but because "sai-wit" is the code for the Witotoan family, "sai-wit-pro" (which you supplied in moo) (and not "sai-huu-pro", from ei) should be the code for Proto-Witotoan, and Proto-Huitoto-Ocaina should get a different code if we're reconstructing that level separately. How about "sai-hoc-pro" for Proto-Huitoto-Ocaina? (I'll add a family code for the family, too, in that case.) For the Boran language family we have a family code "sai-bor", so I could add Proto-Boran aka Proto-Bora-Muinane as "sai-bor-pro". Does this sound good? - -sche (discuss) 20:34, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
I have just filled in a "random" code in ei to refer to Proto-Huitoto-Ocaina. That wasn't intended as an actual proposed code, more as a placeholder. The codes you have proposed seem good. Thanks :D Thadh (talk) 20:41, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
OK, added ([1], [2]). - -sche (discuss) 09:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
@Thadh OK, you can update (and uncomment) the etymologies at your leisure. For ei, please review if the codes (or words) are in the right order, as I think one would normally expect a word to descend from Proto-Witotoan-proper (sai-wit-pro), from Proto-Huitoto-Ocaina (sai-hoc-pro, an older proto-language ancestral to a broader grouping), but ei currently presents the etyma in the other order. - -sche (discuss) 01:08, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks! And thanks for the heads-up about the order, I'll make sure to fix that! Thadh (talk) 11:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Old Sorbian[edit]

Douglas Harper mentioned a dead language called Old Sorbian in his entry for Dresden. Category:Old Sorbian language doesn’t exist, so I did a search for other instances here of ‘Old Sorbian’ and simply aped the code assigned to it here, which is actually for Lower Sorbian… whether that was perfectly intentional on @Fay Freak’s part or not, I have no idea. In any case, I decided to approach you for this since you seem most likely to know what code (if any) to assign to this, despite Slavic languages lying outside of your expertise. —(((Romanophile))) (contributions) 19:40, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

@Romanophile: I don’t know why you mention intentionality of me, I haven’t split any languages here.
“Old Sorbian” is a largely imagined common ancestor of Upper and Lower Sorbian which would be of little utility for this dictionary. One finds mention of it more in placenames than anything else, similar to a lot of fancied Balkan languages we do not have codes for. “Altsorbisch” may as well mean “any Sorbian language, closer distinction is of no relevance to the purpose of this work”. Consequentially Russian старолу́жицкий (starolúžickij) is hardly even attestable, as it is no topic of Slavistics, only imagined by Germanist toponomastics. We do not have a code for Old Slovak either by the way, because of limited corpus – and recently we recognized that “Old Latin” is a more problematic than useful category. For the late medieval times, i.e. fourteenth and fifteenth century, and for loanwords from that time like Plinse, one already clearly distinguishes Upper and Lower Sorbian. Fay Freak (talk) 20:16, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
We could have an etymology-only code, I suppose, or if there are only a few instances where it would be needed, we could just use wording like "[According to Harper,] from a precursor to Lower Sorbian foo" (or simply say "from Lower Sorbian" or "from Upper Sorbian" if a borrowing is of a form and date that allows it to be assigned to one or the other). @FayFreak, do you have a source for the statement (in our edit to Plinse) that Old Prussian plinxne is from German? (Btw, on the subject of tricky - or at least, repeatedly IP-disputed - etymologies of words from the Prussian area, you might take a look at Talk:Glumse.) - -sche (discuss) 17:14, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
@Mahagaja, who has worked with modern Sorbian languages. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:46, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
According to w:Upper Sorbian language § History, the earliest written attestation of Upper Sorbian we have is from 1532; I doubt Lower Sorbian is any older. If we wanted to reconstruct Proto-Sorbian (which is quite doable, though I don't know if any linguists have done so in print), the appropriate code would be wen-pro since wen is the family code for the Sorbian languages. But I'm not actually recommending we do that unless we find that someone has actually published reconstructions of Proto-Sorbian. —Mahāgaja · talk 18:01, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
@-sche: I added one at the Proto-Slavic page, which sees all like I would have guessed without it. Besides Old Prussian was full of borrowings from German and Slavic with proceeding time, ultimately replaced by them, and there aren’t other Baltic forms supporting nativeness. Fay Freak (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

We sent you an e-mail[edit]

Hello -sche,

Really sorry for the inconvenience. This is a gentle note to request that you check your email. We sent you a message titled "The Community Insights survey is coming!". If you have questions, email

You can see my explanation here.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


Zoetmulder (1995) states that the Javanese language is developed in four stages:

  • Old Javanese language (Wiktionary used term Kawi), from the 9th century
  • Middle Javanese language, from the 13th century
  • New Javanese language, from the 16th century, and
  • Modern Javanese language, from the 20th century (but this stage is not universally distinguished).

Now I'm categorizing Malay loan words from Javanese about 16th century.

Can you make new etymology-only language codes for Middle Javanese and New Javanese?

For Kawi, is it appropriate to merge with Javanase?

Rex Aurorum (talk) 08:45, 3 October 2020 (UTC)


hello you thought my use of the w-word for meaning woman on incel/gay cowboy communities is not a good definition. However, I have only seen the word w-word used for that.

politically correct[edit]

You changed the second definition of politically correct to "Respectful of marginalized ethnic groups, genders, etc." I think this is wrong because that sense was displaced by the following derogatory sense in the 1980s. It fell out of use before people wrote phrases like "marginalized genders." From the quotations and etymology, the "respectful" sense was originally about women. The 1980 quotation implies an extension to non-white people by then. (The 1980s witnessed the decline and fall of the Polish joke.) Sense 2 should have a dated label and a more restricted definition. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 10:59, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Hmm. You say "from the quotations" it was originally about women, but AFAICT there's only one quotation, and it's from a book that is scoped in its very title as being about both (non-white) race and gender. As I said in my edit summary, though, I'm not entirely sure the two senses should be separate at all, as opposed to being one sense which became derogatory over time. In a similar vein to your comment in the Tea Room that "you can assume a derogatory sense is used by people who don't like the target of the word", one can assume that people who refer derogatorily to something don't like that thing / think that it is bad, and sense 2 and sense 3 seem to refer to broadly the same thing, with the difference being just some people think the thing is positive (sense 2) and some think it's bad (sense 3, expressed by the "overly"); IMO maybe we should combine them into a definition along the lines of sense 3 but with "overly" in parentheses or something, although more citations might clarify matters.
I would say it matters not if a sense fell out of use before the words we use to define it (such is the case for plenty of obsolete words, and entire extinct languages), as long as the definition is accurate, and certainly other marginalized genders have been known to people of the past for a lot longer than some people presently like to suppose (for example, Lou Sullivan's activism straddled the period you refer to, and folks like Alan L. Hart were significantly earlier), but again I wonder if we should just have one sense there instead of two.
I also find it less than clear that the Johnson cite is sense 1, or indeed that any of the three citations under sense 1 means the same specific thing by the phrase as any of the others. (What a thorny entry...!) - -sche (discuss) 04:47, 21 November 2020 (UTC)


You said in an RfD back in 2016 that the idea that senses 2 and 3 of the verb out might have different etymologies was "interesting".

The most common explanation that I have seen presented claims that sense 3 originated as an extension of sense 2.

But mightn't we have another etymological situation similar to jerk on our hands (I reference how it appears that: 1. it could be from jerkwater, 2. it could be from a verbal phrase for self-gratification, 3. it could be from jerkwater but then influenced by a verbal phrase for self-gratification, or 4. it could be from a verbal phrase for self-gratification and then later influenced by jerkwater)? Phrasing such as truth will out and out in the open is long-established. Moreover, the way that a (word that originates as a) colloquialism develops can sometimes be quite surprising. Case in point: throw down the gauntlet all of a sudden yielded throw down in contemporary slang after existing as a phrase in English (and was not an especially "go-to phrase" for children/teenagers in the late 20th century, unless I have forgotten something) for hundreds of years.

Also pinging @Lambiam in case he knows if any cognates of out in other Germanic languages developed any similar senses. Tharthan (talk) 06:51, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

You know, on second thought, it might actually be better to bring this to the Etymology scriptorium. That way, more editors can discuss this. Tharthan (talk) 21:27, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

On calques[edit]

Re this edit, I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning. English has no phonotactic reason to strip the extra vowels that Japanese has added due to phonological constraints, but it does have a cognitive reason: there is no reason to introduce the new lexical item raito when it is obviously equivalent to the native word light. In order to be written in Japanese script, modification was necessary, but speakers remain aware that raito is English, and are able to transfer it back to its original orthography in a Latin-script context (provided they graduated from high school). It seems strange that waifu is thus a borrowing and light novel a calque, when the real difference is that one has to preserve a modified pronunciation in order to be distinguished from its original meaning, whereas the latter can masquerade as native because it was already unique as a compound. (An interesting test case is galge. Japanese has hacked off half a morpheme, making the second part unrecognisable to English speakers, but the first morpheme comes back into English with its original /l/ intact.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:49, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Hmm; galge is an interesting case. But overall, to me, it seems stranger to think that waifu and kyabakura (instead of cabaret club) on one hand and pierce and light novel (instead of raito noberu) on the other hand are the same kind of thing: to me there is a clear contrast between the first two terms exemplifying what borrowing an English-derived Japanese word looks like, and the latter being "formed by word-for-word or morpheme-by-morpheme translation" of piasu and raito noberu [back] into English, which is our definition of a calque. Perhaps there is an even better word for the latter than calque, but the difference seems very much like the difference between beer garden being a calque and biergarten being a borrowing, to me, and a high-school graduate seems as likely (or as unlikely) to be aware that bier and garten correspond to beer and garden as they would be to recognize raito and noberu as light and novel. - -sche (discuss) 22:02, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Given the fact that both gal and gyaru have been used to 'translate' 「ギャル」 into English (the latter is more popular nowadays for whatever reason), just as idol and aidoru have been used to 'translate' 「アイドル」 into English, and J-drama and dorama have been used to 'translate' 「ドラマ」 into English. I think that some if this boils down to personal preference of the individual. To be very frank, those who prefer to use the latter forms ("gyaru" and "aidoru") are often either 1. those who have determined that, in their opinion, forms like "gal" and "idol" are insufficient for the purpose of creating a distinct English way of describing a Japanese concept (to prevent against the word potentially being mistaken as representing a minor difference in sense from the existing English word), or 2. weeaboos.
The case that Metaknowledge references, waifu, is an example which I think most people would agree a literal re-transcription back into English would cause much confusion. However, it also a term that was (at least initially) used almost exclusively by weeaboos. Tharthan (talk) 03:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)


A relatively new user has added to this entry what looks to my uneducated eye to be a massive edifice of bailing wire and duct tape. It certainly seems to be in good faith and I'm guessing the content is worth keeping, but I'm not comfortable intervening- I have no idea what a correct version would look like. Could you take a look and set things straight? I don't want to discourage them, but I also don't want to have them unintentionally adding tons of junk that will have to be cleaned up later. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:00, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I suppose one thing to do to reduce the clutter of the wikitext is move the inflection tables to Template-space (standardizing them along the way), so they can eventually be transcluded into pages for the other pronouns who inflections they also contain. And many sections should be combined, with the addition of qualifiers where necessary. I'll try to take a crack at it soon. - -sche (discuss) 03:52, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Todo/Non-templatised genders[edit]

Hey. Could you regen Wiktionary:Todo/Non-templatised genders, please? Forever in your debt (talk) 22:26, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

@Forever in your debt: [3]Suzukaze-c (talk) 23:53, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Your edit to n⸺[edit]

In this edit you moved a quote I added within the article, saying in the edit summary that it was “clearly misplaced” because in it the word “doesn't mean "unapproved badass"”; the sense in question is “A person of black African descent who acts in an unapproved manner (whether positive or negative).”

This does not seem so clear to me because I took this definition not to mean “badass” but rather “uppity”.

So, if it still seems to you that it's describing a “badass”, I'd think that we should re-write the definition to be clearer. --Struthious Bandersnatch (talk) 07:17, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Ah, my edit summary was not as intelligible as it should have been, I'm sorry. I was using "badass" as shorthand for the part of the definition which says it can be unapproved in a positive manner (as well as in a negative one), which until last year was worded as "...who acts in an unapproved manner, usually a badass", but I should've used the current wording (which was an improvement over that). I don't discern anything in the quote which suggests it means someone uppity, either, though, nor unapproved except insofar as racists disapprove of black people period. I would have taken it to be the usual racial slur, but the use of "red nigger" — which shows that at least that use of "nigger" can't be either of the "person of black African descent" senses, including the "person of black African descent who acts in an unapproved manner" sense, which exists for some people contrastively with "black" like some people contrast "gays" with "faggots", etc — suggests that at least that use of "nigger" is the other, broader racial slur sense also seen in "forest niggers" and "prairie niggers", etc. The quote was a good find, btw; it does show fairly recent use of the word to refer to both "red" and black people. - -sche (discuss) 08:10, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Oh, I see. Yeah, now that I re-read it all, it really belongs better where you put it. --Struthious Bandersnatch (talk) 09:31, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Zay orthography[edit]

I just noticed that back in 2013, you added a bunch of Zay lemmas in IPA. I don't think anyone writes in it, but if they did, they certainly wouldn't use IPA (and most scholarly works use Semitist notation). My preference would be to use Ge'ez script, which is what all the other written Gurage lects use. Do you have any thoughts on this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:58, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

What little information I can now find suggests or implies it'd be written in Ge'ez, yes, as far as native scripts go. (It's impressive how much more about Zay has been digitized now relative to then, and yet still how little is accessible and says much beyond passing mentions of it.) - -sche (discuss) 11:31, 22 February 2021 (UTC)


See Talk:witenagemot. J3133 (talk) 13:20, 11 May 2021 (UTC)