Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits

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Wiktionary Request pages (edit) see also: discussions
Requests for deletion
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Requests for deletion of pages in the main namespace due to policy violations; also for undeletion requests.

Requests for verification
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Requests for verification in the form of durably-archived attestations conveying the meaning of the term in question.

Requests for deletion/Others
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Requests for deletion of pages in other (not the main) namespaces, such as categories, appendices and templates.

Requests for moves, mergers and splits
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Moves, mergers and splits; requests listings, questions and discussions.

Requests for cleanup
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Cleanup requests, questions and discussions.

{{rfc-case}} - {{rfc-trans}} - {{rfdate}} - {{rfd-redundant}} - {{rfdef}} - {{rfe}} - {{rfex}} - {{rfap}} - {{rfp}} - {{rfphoto}} -

All Wiktionary: namespace discussions 1 2 3 4 5 - All discussion pages 1 2 3 4 5

This page is designed to discuss moves (renaming pages) mergers and splits. Its aim is to take the burden away from the beer parlour and requests for deletion where these issues were previously listed. Please note that uncontroversial page moves to correct typos, missing characters etc. should not be listed here, but moved directly using the move function.

  • Appropriate: Renaming categories, templates, Wiktionary pages, appendices, rhymes and occasionally entries. Merging or splitting temp categories, templates, Wiktionary pages, appendices, rhymes.
  • Out of scope: Merging entries which are alternative forms or spellings or synonyms such as color/colour or traveled/travelled. Unlike Wikipedia, we don't redirect in these sort of situations. Each spelling gets its own page, often employing the templates {{alternative spelling of}} or {{alternative form of}}.
  • Tagging pages: To tag a page, you can use the general template {{rfm}}, as well as one of the more specific templates {{move}}, {{merge}} and {{split}}.


Unresolved requests from before January 2014[edit]

February 2014[edit]

Merge Category:Euphemistic forms by language into Category:Euphemisms by language[edit]

I think we should merge Category:Euphemistic forms by language (and it's subcategories) into Category:Euphemisms by language (and it's subcategories). --WikiTiki89 17:48, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89 To do that, we'd need to change how Template:euphemistic spelling of and Template:euphemistic form of categorize. - -sche (discuss) 05:15, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Discussion continues at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2017/March#Euphemistic_forms_vs_euphemisms. - -sche (discuss) 06:05, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Category names containing "US"[edit]

I believe that the punctuated U.S. is the more formal usage, and has the advantage of not being mistaken for an all-caps instance of the word, "us". I therefore propose to move all categories containing "US" (e.g. Category:US State Capitals, Category:fr:US States, and Category:Southern US English) to titles containing "U.S.". By my count, this covers about 50 categories in total. If approved, I will be glad to do all of the renaming and recategorization. bd2412 T 21:29, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I actually think we'd be better off renaming them to categories containing the unabbreviated "United States". --WikiTiki89 21:50, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
I would absolutely agree with that, as it eliminates all possible ambiguity. For states, we would have to change it to "States of the United States" to avoid the alliteration of "United States States". bd2412 T 22:06, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
We wouldn't have to, but I agree it would make it less awkward. Anyway, I see no problem with "States of the United States". --WikiTiki89 22:16, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
I disagree. At least part of the time, people have to type these category names by hand, and even a couple of extra characters every time can be a nuisance (I'm surprised you aren't going all the way and suggesting "the United States of America").
I fail to see how the "US" in category names could ever be mistaken for a pronoun- do you really think people are going to look at Category:US States and mistake it for a colloquial version of "we states"?
It looks very much to me like a solution in search of a problem, with no real benefit, unless you can call forcing people to do more typing a benefit. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:16, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Our category names, being part of the visible public product, should at least look formal and professional. bd2412 T 04:24, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Support renaming to "United States". Note that we do currently have Category:Languages of the United States of America (rather than Category:Languages of the United States); I don't know if it should be renamed for consistency. - -sche (discuss) 18:51, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
For an English-speaking audience, "of America" is indeed probably superfluous. bd2412 T 21:00, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
Is there any further comment/opinion on this? bd2412 T 00:32, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
Attributive US and noun United States. So US state capitals (caps sic) and Languages of the United StatesMichael Z. 2014-03-16 04:11 z
Is that just an opinion on whether United States should be spelled out, or is it also addressed to the question of whether we should use a punctuated U.S.? bd2412 T 18:29, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Both. These are also the forms recommended by the Chicago Manual of Style. Michael Z. 2014-03-17 21:56 z
I see no reason to abbreviate. --WikiTiki89 21:57, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

March 2014[edit]

Meänkieli (fit) and Kven (fkv) into Finnish (fi)[edit]

Finnish dialects

I think that linguists consider these to be dialects of Finnish, so that would make these pluricentric standards of a single language. I don't know if keeping them separate would hold any value? —CodeCat 14:05, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Let's ping our active Finnish speakers to see if they have input: User:Hekaheka and User:Makaokalani. 23:16, 23 March 2014 (UTC) (updated - -sche (discuss) 06:09, 6 April 2014 (UTC))
The impression I get from the example at w:Meänkieli is that the differences are very minor, no more than there might be between Croatian and Serbian. I notice systematic loss of -d- and Finnish -ts- corresponds to -tt- in Meänkieli. They definitely look mutually intelligible. Kven looks a little more different, but it might also just be the spelling; I don't know how hard it would be to the average Finnish speaker. —CodeCat 23:26, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I know maybe a dozen words of Finnish, so I can't judge for myself, but the impression I get from the Wikipedia articles is that there's an equal or greater range of variation between dialects in Finland as there is with these dialects- if these dialects were on the other side of the Finnish border, they would probably be considered just part of the normal dialectal variation (I'm sure there are some differences due to their isolation from the influence of standard Finnish, as well). They have special status because they're in Sweden and Norway surrounded by Swedish and Norwegian. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:53, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
Finnish wasn't even a single language to begin with originally. There's several dialect groups that form a continuum, but it's not easy to draw clear lines. Savonian (eastern) dialects for example might well be closer to Karelian (considered a separate language) than they are to western Finnish. —CodeCat 00:10, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
My impression is the same as Chuck's, that these could be merged. By my (quick) count, we have 11 Meänkieli entries and 14 English entries with Meänkieli translations, and 19 Kven entries and 8 entries with Kven translations. - -sche (discuss) 02:45, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
For more information see w:Finnish dialects and also w:Peräpohjola dialects. The map to the right may also help. —CodeCat 03:33, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Blue indicates areas where Finnish is spoken by the majority, and green indictes minority. Meänkieli and Kven are considered Finnish on this map

I somehow missed this discussion when it was active, but better later than never. I have the following comments:

  • The map is outdated. There's practically no Finnish-speaking population left in the areas which were annexed by the Soviet Union during and after the WWII. The map on the right is more up-to-date.
  • There's some Ingrian population left in the St. Petersburg area, but their number and share of population (less than 0,5‰ in Leningrad oblast) is drastically reduced due to 1) inflow of Russians to St. Petersburg, 2) Stalin's terror in the 1930's and 3) emigration to Finland between 1990 and 2011.
  • I'm not sure of Kven-speakers, but the speakers of Meänkieli tend to be quite strong in their opinion that they are not Finnish-speakers. It is probably true that if the border were in another place, Meänkieli would be considered a Finnish dialect. But then again, it would hardly be the same language as it is today - it would have preserved less archaic features and there would be much less Swedish influence in it. If ISO regards it a language, how could we be wiser?
  • Meänkieli is an official minority language in Sweden, and is regarded as distinct from Finnish which also has a (separate) minority language status there.
  • "Finnish wasn't even a single language to begin with originally." -- Show me one that was!

--Hekaheka (talk) 12:27, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Let's take a look at our current 15 Meänkieli and 20 Kven lemmas:
  • Meänkieli:
    • Six words indistinguishable from Standard Finnish
    • Two words indistinguishable in shape from Standard Finnish but with dialect-specific meanings
    • Four words with some phonetic peculiarities specific to Northern dialects
    • Two words widespread across Finnish dialects
    • One word that might be specific to the variety, or might be one of the previous
  • Kven:
    • Seven words indistinguishable from Standard Finnish
    • Seven words widespread across Finnish dialects
    • Five words with some phonetic peculiarities specific to Northern dialects
    • One narrow-distribution loanword from Norwegian
So yes, Symbol support vote.svg Support. We could well treat these as Finnish dialects, though I think to account for any local neologisms and such, they would deserve categories of their own under Category:Regional Finnish. --Tropylium (talk) 19:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I've merged Kven into Finnish, relabelling the handful of Kven entries we had, except nelje and kahðeksen, yhðeksen and yhðeksentoista, which don't seem to be attested in any language. (kahdeksen and yhdeksen do seem to be attested as regional variants of the usual Finnish terms.) - -sche (discuss) 05:16, 18 August 2015 (UTC)


Templates Template:grc-conj-perfect-σ and Template:grc-conj-perfect-dental are identical. ObsequiousNewt (talk) 16:41, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

April 2014[edit]

Category:Japanese humble language[edit]

Category:Japanese humble terms

I noticed the nonexistent topical category Category:ja:Humble in Special:WantedCategories, and checked, as I often do, whether there was an existing category that already covered the subject. I found these two. The first one was created by User:Haplology, and has more information about Japanese culture, while the other one was created by User:Atitarev along with Category:Korean humble terms, and is more suited to a multi-language series of categories.

It seems to me that Category:Japanese humble terms fits our naming scheme better, so I propose we merge both into that one, and that we convert it and the Korean category to use {{lexiconcatboiler}}, which is designed for this kind of thing. That means creating a category called Category:Humble terms by language with a general description of humble language in its subtemplate. We can then add language-specific details to the Japanese and Korean categories.

I suspect that there aren't many languages that have such well-developed and institutionalized humble lexicons as these do, but I'm sure there are an awful lot of languages that have at least a few such terms- "your humble servant" comes to mind as an English example. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

It's only to do with two languages - Korean and Japanese. Note: some people mix "honorific" with "polite" or "formal" but the exact concept currently exists only in Japanese and Korean, even if other languages have similar ideas, "honorific" and "humble" are opposite and used in out- and in-group references.
I have posted on User:Haplology's page some time ago, which is now archived. You can see here: [1]. Haplology admitted that the structure wasn't perfect and needs fixing.
The current setup:
In my opinion it should be:
Which matches Japanese more closely.
@Eirikr might add more to it. I didn't get around to fixing it but I will. It's not a big list. Korean can and should be structured the same way. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:26, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
The suggested structure above (2) shows that honorific and humble terms are both part of the respectful formal language but honorific is used in reference to outgroup and humble - to ingroup. The concept and usage are critical in formal communication in Japanese and Korean languages. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:31, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
We could also put them directly under Category:Japanese formal terms, if that works. —CodeCat 01:07, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
It's not the same, although if it's related. Category:Japanese honorifics should be a subcategory of Category:Japanese formal terms. "Formal" is opposed to "colloquial" but respectful language is a specific variety, which needs special training, including native Japanese students. E.g. おっしゃる (ossharu, honorific) shows respect to the 2nd/3rd person or outgroup and is never used in self-reference in the polite speech, whereas 申す (mōsu, humble) is used to self-reference or ingroup (even if one talks about own CEO!). Formal words are used regardless who/what they refer to in the formal language, like in any language. An interesting example might be that a person talking to an outsider about own general manager without polite "-san" (e.g. simply Yamada, not Yamada-san) and using humble terms. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

May 2014[edit]

Category:Wiktionary:Foo → Category:Wiktionary foo[edit]

I have just finished moving Category:Wiktionary:Language considerations to Category:Wiktionary language considerations in accordance with the discussion above. But that's not the only category that's using "Wiktionary:" as a pseudonamespace. I therefore propose all of the following moves:

If there is consensus to make these name changes, I also request someone with a bot to do it, because the move I did by hand wasn't particularly big, but it sure was tedious. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe some of these should have "Wiktionary" removed from the names. Not sure which though. —CodeCat 14:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Category:Help already exists and it isn't clear what the difference is between it and Category:Wiktionary:Help, so those two probably really should be merged. The same goes for Category:Pronunciation and Category:Wiktionary:Pronunciation: they both exist, but seem to have the same function. Category:Statistics is a topic category covering things like Category:en:Statistics and Category:de:Statistics, so it can't be merged with Category:Wiktionary:Statistics. Category:Translation seems like a good potential topic category too, even though it isn't one yet, so I'd rather keep that one free at least. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:55, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
I've moved Category:Wiktionary:Help,and Daniel has moved Category:Wiktionary:Transliteration. - -sche (discuss) 18:35, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

July 2014[edit]

*sъ(n)*sъ, *sъn[edit]

*kъ(n)*kъ, *kъn[edit]

*o(b)*o, *ob[edit]

I think it is bad practice to have parentheses in the entry titles. We should move these pages to one form and have the other be an alternative form. --WikiTiki89 17:33, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly about this one way or the other, but the entry titles are inherently unattested, so I don't see harm in notation that enables the content to be fully centralized on one page. And the parenthetical notation is easy to understand, IMO; certainly there are weirder naming schemes out there, like Sino-Tibetan's — it has entry titles like Reconstruction:Proto-Sino-Tibetan/(s/r)-ma(ŋ/k) and Reconstruction:Proto-Sino-Tibetan/p(r)an/t ~ b(r)an/t. - -sche (discuss) 18:47, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Wow, that's even worse. I would say those should be moved as well, but they are also a different scenario, since they indicate different reconstructions, whereas in the cases that I nominated, they just indicate alternative forms. --WikiTiki89 19:21, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
@CodeCat As the creator of those entries, I was hoping to get your input here. --WikiTiki89 17:23, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I think it's ok to move them, but which one should the main lemma be on? —CodeCat 17:25, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I'd say the one with the final consonant, since it's unpredictable. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:22, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

September 2014[edit]

Category:Zootomy and Category:Phytotomy[edit]

I request that these categories be moved to Category:Animal anatomy and Category:Plant anatomy respectively. The fuller names are more easily understandable and far, far more common (per b.g.c ngrams) than the terms "zootomy" and "phytotomy". Even Wikipedia uses the more understandable names for their categories. All language-specific subcategories are of course nominated too. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:33, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

We now also have Category:Body. The anatomy categories are really meant for technical/medical jargon used in the field of anatomy, not for categorising simple parts of the body generally. I do support the rename, but this is something that should probably be looked at too. —CodeCat 19:50, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Is Category:Body also for animal bodies? Would we put horn and antler and tail there? Either way it's not really an appropriate place for leaf and stem and petal, which aren't technical jargon but ought to have a home somewhere in our rather chaotic category hierarchy. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:35, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree. Animal bodies share many terms with humans, but the terms for plant bodies are normally entirely separate, so maybe "Animal body" and "Plant body" categories should be created. The former would be a subcategory of "Body", while the latter would be a sister category. When I rearranged many of the categories, my aim was always to split things up in the way that the average human would do. So the categories specifically reflect an anthropocentric view of the world rather than a scientific one necessarily. —CodeCat 21:43, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure I like the idea of having some topic categories for technical terms and other topic categories for everyday terms. When I'm deciding where to categorize a term, I often look at Wikipedia to see where they categorize something, and then try to find the closest corresponding category here. And they definitely categorize Horn (anatomy) and Antler and Tail in
Category:Animal anatomy (or a subcategory of it) and Leaf and Plant stem in
Category:Plant anatomy. (Petal is only in
Category:Plant morphology for some reason; I'm unsure what the difference is supposed to be.) —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that we have many topical categories that only exist because there is a label that categorises terms in them. For example, {{label|en|anatomy}} will add things to Category:en:Anatomy. As these labels are meant to be used to indicate technical jargon, we've now ended up with a whole category tree full of science terms, including this one. We have never been very consistent in how labels are used, which has caused a proliferation of entries using labels just to categorise, rather than to indicate jargon. It doesn't help either that there has never been any kind of conclusive discussion on what topical categories are meant to achieve in the context of a dictionary, nor how they are delimited from other kinds of categories. Until we answer those more fundamental questions, issues like this will never be solvable. —CodeCat 22:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Category:English locatives to Category:English location adverbs[edit]

This seems more appropriate, given that the category only contains adverbs. I can't think of anything that might belong here that is not an adverb. —CodeCat 23:18, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

To move this to some called "adverbs" makes a stronger statement than some grammarians would make. A word like home need not be treated as an adverb. Furthermore prepositional phrases can be locatives but it does some violence to their function to call them adverbs. DCDuring TALK 00:14, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
As a further illustration an expression like where the sun don't shine a clause that is obviously a locative, as are where angels fear to tread (a clause, from, but not an alt form of the proverb), every which way (a noun phrase), and where it's at (clause). If the membership criteria are not explicitly, clearly, and reviewably specified in such a way as to exclude these, the change seems simply wrong. DCDuring TALK 19:46, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't see why they would need to be excluded. They are location adverbs to me. —CodeCat 20:24, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
You have confused semantic function and word class. DCDuring TALK 23:12, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Why is it necessary to distinguish them? —CodeCat 01:21, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Only to be nice to users by avoiding needless confusion and redundancy. In English almost any word can assume almost any function in at least some cases, often attestably so. It is not that Adverb is all that well-defined a word class in English to begin with. We use it because we need to provide hooks from our content to what users may remember from their schooling. DCDuring TALK 04:23, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Nominator has not made the case for the move IMO, at least not to my satisfaction. Purplebackpack89 22:33, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Category:English temporal location adverbs to Category:English punctual adverbs[edit]

I think "punctual" is the more common way to describe these? —CodeCat 23:41, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

"Temporal adverb" is much, more common, though it may include a more diverse group of adverbs DCDuring TALK 00:19, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I believe that we are making a mistake to treat all of these in subcategories of parts of speech. We can be free of the tyranny of the word classes that users are familiar with for purposes of categories of this kind, though sadly not for headings. There are nominals that are not nouns, MWEs that are not phrases of any kind. Forcing a category structure to be hierarchical is convenient in a bureaucratic kind of way, but it does a great deal of violence to the reality of things. DCDuring TALK 00:27, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
There was Category:Latvian temporal adverbs, which I renamed to Category:Latvian time adverbs while also creating Category:English time adverbs. I did this because "temporal" seems like a higher-register word, which is like the distinction between "location" and "locative" - and we already had Category:English location adverbs as noted in the discussion below. So I figured that "time" was a better lexical counterpart to "location" than "temporal". Using "temporal location" is confusing as it gives the impression that these adverbs indicate a place, which they don't of course. But it also misses the point of the category. The defining characteristic is that these refer to punctual moments in time, analogous to adverbs which denote stationary position. They contrast with adverbs like "yearly" or "for a year" which denote frequency and duration respectively. These, of course, are also temporal location adverbs, but they don't belong in this category as they have their own categories (Category:English frequency adverbs and Category:English duration adverbs), so the suggested new name is an attempt to make this more explicit. —CodeCat 21:01, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Note that the other categories both use nouns attributively instead of adjectives, eg, not "frequent adverbs", but "frequency adverbs". The nouns are chosen because they have a different meaning than the adjectives. "Punctuality" obviously doesn't cut it. Can you think of any other one- or two-word nominal that would be better than "temporal location"? DCDuring TALK 14:04, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Ain't broke. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:14, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
    • It is, see my reply above. —CodeCat 21:01, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
DCDuring is right that "temporal adverbs" is a lot more common than "punctual adverbs". The latter phrase gets only 50 non-redundant raw Google hits, and 47 Google Books hits; the former phrase gets at least 43 pages of Google Books hits (43x10 = 430 hits) before the hits stop actually containing the phrase. "Temporal location adverbs" is the least common of the bunch, getting only 6 Books hits, and it's a moronic / oxymoronic name, because it states that the adverbs refer to places, which they do not. So the question is whether it's sufficient to relabel these as "temporal adverbs", or necessary to give them the narrower label "punctual adverbs"? Are there enough of them that the narrow categorization is necessary? Is the narrow label one people will understand? - -sche (discuss) 22:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Well, as it is now, we have Category:English time adverbs, but it's a parent category to various other types of adverbs with an aspect of time. The adverbs in question here are just one type. So it wouldn't make so much sense to have "temporal adverbs" as a subcategory of "time adverbs". But it also wouldn't make much sense to have "frequency adverbs" as a subcategory of "temporal adverbs" if the latter is meant to indicate points in time specifically. —CodeCat 17:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


This poorly maintained category should be combined with Category:Taxonomy. The poor maintenance arises from the overlap conceptually as well as the poor choice of name for this category. In addition, for some undocumented and unfathomable reason Category:Taxonomy was made a subcategory of Category:Systematics. I think this is symptomatic of the unmaintainablity of the category. DCDuring TALK 19:14, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Support. —CodeCat 20:25, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure if we should merge the two. In the English categories, at least, the members seem to be correctly apportioned between the two, with a handful of exceptions. I do think they should be made sister categories, rather than one being under the other. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I would support that too. —CodeCat 20:46, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
What are the criteria that distinguish membership in the categories? Many dictionaries have them as synonyms in one or more of the variously defined senses and subsenses, two of which BTW systematics lacks. DCDuring TALK 13:53, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

November 2014[edit]

Khanty words with /ɬ/[edit]

Requesting a move of a dozen Khanty words:

These have /ɬ/, which is however written ӆ and not ԓ (this is instead, I believe, /ɭ/). Quite a few current entries are sourced from a dictionary (Kononova 2002) which uses a rather ԓ-like but regardless clearly el-with-tail glyph. --Tropylium (talk) 13:24, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

(Listed here in case anyone wants to argue that ԓ for /ɬ/ is actually a competing dialectal standard that should have precedence. --Tropylium (talk))
I think you are mostly going to talk to yourself in this section. Move, if Tropylium says so. --Vahag (talk) 14:23, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
I would say just go ahead and move them yourself. Unless there's a chance that other languages will have terms using the original spellings, the redirects that you leave will actually be useful for those who make the same mistake when searching. Given the similarity of the characters, I have a hunch scannos from online books might be a major source of these. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:38, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia, w:Khanty language uses both letters (Ӆ ӆ and Ԓ ԓ). Are you certain that these particular words are spelled with Ӆ ӆ? —Stephen (Talk) 15:04, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Update: apparently the normative glyph is in fact ԯ (el with descender). However, this has not been widely available in fonts, so ӆ or ԓ have been used as workaround solutions in some materials. (Can anyone reading this actually see the first glyph?) --Tropylium (talk) 09:42, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
@Tropylium: Just FYI, the free font Quivira supports Ԯ, ԯ (Ԯ, ԯ). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 10:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
@Tropylium, do these still need to be moved? - -sche (discuss) 22:55, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
They do, though we never did settle here if we should move them to use ԯ or ӆ. Since the latter is attestable as well, and seems to render better, I would be okay with it (even if we might be setting ourselves up for replacing these again with alternate-spelling soft-redirects some years down the line). --Tropylium (talk) 01:57, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

it does exactly what it says on the tin[edit]

Move to: do exactly what it says on the tin.

The single citation doesn't actually fit the pattern, since it apparently uses a noun in place of the first "it". But more importantly, "do exactly what it says on the tin", "doing exactly what it says on the tin" and "did exactly what it said on the tin" are all citable (as is the grammatically inconsistent but still logical "did exactly what it says on the tin"). This should be a verb, not a phrase, and the 'it' needs to go. Smurrayinchester (talk) 14:12, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be even briefer: what it says on the tin, with redirects from and usage examples of the most common extended variations? Just alternates with exactly and neither is essential in use. BTW, the expression is surprisingly recent, apparently with 99% of the Google Books usage being after 2000. And substituting 'can' for 'tin' does not lead to clear examples of idiomatic usage. DCDuring TALK 14:43, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
One can also find "more or less", "pretty much", etc as qualifiers and what it says on the tin as object of verbs like deliver and as part of a predicate with forms of be. In whatever form the phrase gained its initial popularity, what speakers find peripheral seems to have been discarded or substituted for in a significant portion of usage. Also, it can be found in the past tense: "Many funds proved unable to do what it said on the tin: they could not hedge effectively against volatile markets." (about 'hedge funds') DCDuring TALK 15:41, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
That would also be a good solution, although the noun is a bit more nebulous to define (as with way out of a paper bag - while I understand why the noun was split off, the definition is quite weird since people think of it as a construction, not a verb + noun phrase). The recentness is not a surprise - the Ronseal adverts that coined the phrase only started in the late 90s. Also unsurprising is the fact that it appears to be about twice as common in UK writing than US writing according to Google Ngrams, and even more UK dominant from a random sample from Google books. Smurrayinchester (talk) 16:08, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
There two kinds of definitions: gloss and non-gloss.
  1. A gloss might be: "the performance or characteristics implied by a label or name, especially for something whose characteristics cannot be otherwise immediately determined, as an item for sale in concealing packaging"
  2. A non-gloss might be: "Used in expressions that indicate that something is what it appears to be or performs as promised."
Improvements and/or suggestions welcome. DCDuring TALK 20:18, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
The words on the Ronseal tin that are legible in the YouTube are: "Ronseal Decking Stain". Doesn't it seem odd that there should be possible multiple interpretations other than that intended, eg, 1., that Ronseal stains ("soils") decks; 2., that Ronseal is a stain that decks ("knocks down") (say, the person applying it, as due to toxicity of fumes). DCDuring TALK 20:38, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
It's often shortened to "as it says on the tin". Donnanz (talk) 13:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

December 2014[edit]


I can't decide whether to move un drôle de to well, un drôle de or to somehow define it as an adjective and move it back into the adjective section. However, it can't stay as it is. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:09, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Category:Dance and Category:Dances[edit]

Can these two categories be merged? It can be a problem deciding which one to use, or whether to select both. Donnanz (talk) 09:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

For some reason we have a bias toward toward using plurals of countable nouns in Category names. Clearly there are words connected with dance that are not dances. DCDuring TALK 13:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
In this case having Category:Dances as a subcategory of Category:Dance seems fine to me. DCDuring TALK 15:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Hmm, I'm not happy with that, it just adds needless complexity. I will use just Category:Dance for Bokmål and Nynorsk. Donnanz (talk) 15:29, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Terms for actual dances should go in Category:Dances. —CodeCat 19:32, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
I feel that in some languages where there are few entries (at present) that can go into either category it is better to list them all under one category (Dance). Or maybe there should be a more comprehensive category named "Dancing", replacing both "Dance" and "Dances". Donnanz (talk) 13:01, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Nobody is going to go back when there are more entries, and recategorise them all. So they should be put in the category where they should eventually be, right from the start. —CodeCat 13:55, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
It shouldn't be a problem to change the category if necessary. I'll do it my way - Frank Sinatra-style. Donnanz (talk) 14:28, 29 December 2014 (UTC)


Lewis and Short do not have this. They have satin'. If you think this should be RfVed, I would not object. DCDuring TALK 19:29, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I doubt an RFV will be helpful here. The original manuscripts will definitely not have an apostrophe on this word; modern editions may or may not depending on the editor's preference. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:30, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
@DCDuring, Angr: See, for example, these two, which both omit the apostrophe. The trouble is, AFAICT, this contraction only occurs in the works of T. Maccius Plautus, which makes it Old Latin (itc-ola), as opposed to Classical Latin (la). Still, the form with the apostrophe and the form without are on all fours with regard to that issue, I suppose. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:41, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Left where it is per Angr's comment that the original manuscripts are unlikely to have the apostrophe. If the term is not Latin la but rather Old Latin, please update the language header. There is a hard redirect at satin'; I don't mind any anyone updates it to a soft redirect ({{alternative form of}} or a similar template). - -sche (discuss) 17:49, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

January 2015[edit]

Category:Probability, Category:Probability theory and Category:Statistics[edit]

The terminology of probability theory and statistics overlaps so much that there is little point in maintaining the two disciplines as separate topical categories.

I also cannot see the point of maintaining Category:Probability separately from Category:Probability theory — unless it is meant to contain terms used in informal discussions of probability (as opposed to mathematical formalisation thereof).

Also, Category:Linear algebra and Category:Vector algebra are one and the same. I would suggest deleting the latter, except I am too lazy to do a separate nomination for those.

Asking Msh210 to weigh in, just in case. Keφr 19:10, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, w:vector algebra, q.v., and linear algebra are identical. Probability theory is a far cry, to my mind, from statistics. In particular, their uses are different: lots and lots of people use statistics, and the words that are relevant to statistics, without knowing or caring anything about probability theory. Perhaps one topcat for statistics and applied probability and another for probability theory? But they'll share quite a few words. Perhaps instead one for statistics and one for probability? They, too, will share quite a few words. So I don't know the best course of action. Maybe we should keep the three categories we have now, but rename "Probability" to "Applied probability". If we do decide to have separate topcats for applied probability and for probability theory, then perhaps merge the latter into category:Measure theory?​—msh210 (talk) 03:35, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
I have speedy-merged "Vector algebra" into "Linear algebra". Only three entries were affected: [[գրադիենտ]], [[ristitulo]] and [[vektoritulo]]. Keφr 18:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
As for "lots of people use words relevant to statistics without caring about probability theory" — can you clarify that with an example? Keφr 18:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Practical statisticians, like w:Gonçalo Abecasis and w:Nate Silver, probably know little (and care little) about σ-algebras and probability measures.​—msh210 (talk) 21:42, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
I think these particular two terms would actually fit better in Category:en:Measure theory than in Category:en:Probability theory anyway (yes, even the latter). They are not "purely probabilistic" terms — in fact, I doubt any such terms exist, otherwise I would not propose this merger. Keφr 22:16, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Maybe they would fit better there. As I said above, "If we do decide to have separate topcats for applied probability and for probability theory, then perhaps merge the latter into category:Measure theory".​—msh210 (talk) 00:29, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
In that case, the question to ask is what terms are characteristic to "applied probability" as opposed to "pure" probability and statistics. Right now Category:en:Probability contains terms like mgf, stochastic matrix and evens — of which only the latter seems rather non-statistical. On the other hand, it would be awkward to find probability distribution in a category whose name does not mention probability. Keφr 15:23, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
@Kephir I think you are wrong about no purely probabilistic terms existing. But, even if you are correct, that doesn't in and of itself mean that Category:Probability should be deleted. Msh and I have posited that statistics-only terms exist. Statistics-only terms shouldn't be in the same combination of categories as statistics-and-probability terms; probability could continue to exist as a subcategory of statistics even if no probability-only terms were found to exist. Purplebackpack89 00:52, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
In defense of the quote "lots of people use words relevant to statistics without caring about probability theory", there are lots of statistics that can be discerned without using probability. Rates, and to a certain extent averages, concern probability, but statistics is also enumerations and changes, which can be calculated without using probability. Purplebackpack89 23:37, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Merge Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/wisundaz to Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/wisundz[edit]

Most sources I found seem to reconstruct this word as a consonant stem (See talk page for *wisundaz before moving.) Some information regarding the etymology of the word may need to be looked over more (Not all the sources on the talk page agree on the etymology of this word.).Nayrb Rellimer (talk) 07:47, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

February 2015[edit]


Into {{ast-noun}} by adding optional parameters, such as {{fr-noun}}, {{es-noun}}, {{it-noun}} (etc etc etc) have. Bit of a no-brainer. --Type56op9 (talk) 10:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah no brainer, do it. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:08, 24 April 2015 (UTC)


Into {{ast-adj}} by adding optional parameters, such as {{fr-noun}}, {{es-noun}}, {{it-noun}} (etc etc etc) have. Bit of a no-brainer. --Type56op9 (talk) 10:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah no brainer, do it. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:09, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

man of one's word[edit]

Why use a gender-neutral pronoun with man? Does anyone say "she was a man of her word"? It should be moved to man of his word (currently a redirect to this), and there should be a parallel entry for woman of her word. I'm not saying this should be a redlink, but there are only a few hits for man of one's word in Google Books compared to clear widespread use for man of his word, so the latter should be the lemma. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:40, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I think the "one" form was probably picked because "I'm a man of my word" and "You're a man of your word" are also pretty common. I wouldn't necessarily object to the move though. Smurrayinchester (talk) 14:45, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Lots or redirects to one or more lemmas should it. I suppose person of one's word is gender neutral and would work with a lot of redirects. For "person" would we need "boy", "girl", "lady", "lad" in addition to "man" and "woman" and plurals including "people"? DCDuring TALK 23:55, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
It's like we need some kind of template language to allow snowclone headwords like person1 of pronoun-for-person1's word, which would then automagically match user searches for thing like "DJ of his word" and "woman of my word", etc and take the user to the right entry, whatever that might be. Pengo (talk) 20:59, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
For many of the most common constructions the invariant words are also stopwords for almost any search engine AFAIK, like articles and determiners, prepositions, and pronouns, ie, the PoSes that are virtually closed sets. In this case "a X of X's word" ("Xs of Xs' word" for the plural) gives the search engine only word to work with. We could have a construction space that had presumably fewer of these to work with, so the failed search screen would more likely yield what the search sought. If we educated users to look at derived terms and had a rigorous process for making sure that all derived terms appeared in the entries the search engine actually hit, we would have an adequate system for repeat users, if not for all users. DCDuring TALK 22:20, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
I was thinking more for Wiktionary's own search engine, if someone entered "lady of her word" it could auto-redirect to "person of one's word" with an auto-redirect message saying "auto-redirect: matched this phrase pattern". Other search engines would probably be more useful though. Blue-sky stuff anyway. Pengo (talk) 00:39, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I was too, but I misremembered it as having stop words. (Apparently stop words have been an option for some Mediawiki search engines, but not so much lately). At present, searches for "woman/lady/girl/boy of her/his word" yield an empty search result page if enclosed in quotes and a long results page if not quoted, usually not including [[man of one's word]]. The simple expedient of including the single words woman, lady, girl, and boy would be an improvement. I am often surprised at the capability of Cirrus search, though the power is not displayed to those who don't know the filters and doesn't seem relevant for this matter. DCDuring TALK 01:15, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I would define it at person of one's word with redirects from man, woman, etc, as DCDuring seems to be suggesting. - -sche (discuss) 21:40, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I was suggesting, though I was hoping for a better idea. I suppose it doesn't really matter for most purposes what the lemma entry was, so we may as well be gender-neutral.
Perhaps the better idea I was awaiting is to make the lemma [[of one's word]]. Stripping gendered pronouns to the greatest extent possible approaches gender-neutrality to the greatest extent possible and leaves less uncertainty about might need to be attested. DCDuring TALK 22:20, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, yes, I had thought about of one's word, too, as that would even cover rare cases like google books:"a company of its word". But perhaps that's too much stripping, too much abstraction. - -sche (discuss) 22:27, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
I still think we would need redirects at least from the singular personal pronoun versions. DCDuring TALK 23:21, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes (@DCDuring and @Pengo), like many highly variable idiomatic expressions, this one would need to have a lot of redirects pointing to it from common variants (and perhaps even uncommon but attested variants — redirects are cheap), including man of his word, woman of her word, gentleman of his word, lady of her word, (man?) of my word, of your word, of his word, of her word, and of their word. - -sche (discuss) 02:22, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Yep, not to mention the plural forms (men of their word, etc) Pengo (talk) 10:32, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I'd settle for the singular personal pronouns on the grounds that few would ever look up the others and that we could semiautomate the creation of redirects for many such MWEs so that we actually had the most common ones for many of these rather than just have a complete set for one or a few. This would seem like a reasonable item for Wiktionary:Todo. DCDuring TALK 13:31, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Category:English male given names from Celtic[edit]

Category:English female given names from Celtic[edit]

Celtic what? This gives the impression that there's something called "Celtic" from which names are derived. You can certainly find works from the 19th century that talk this way, but they're full of truly awful etymologies that are absolutely painful to read if you know anything about historical linguistics. These categories should be moved to the equivalents with "Celtic languages" rather than "Celtic" Chuck Entz (talk) 02:53, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Category:English male given names from Germanic[edit]

Category:English female given names from Germanic[edit]

Category:English male given names from Slavic[edit]

Category:English female given names from Slavic[edit]

As above. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:01, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Support the name change into Celtic/Germanic/Slavic languages, if somebody else does the job. That was just shorthand. --Makaokalani (talk) 09:40, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
Support. - -sche (discuss) 01:12, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


built-in and builtin are alternative spellings of built in. The former two entries should be "alternative form of built in" and nothing else.--Sae1962 (talk) 06:33, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

March 2015[edit]

Merge Category:Finnish semelfactive verbs into Category:Finnish momentane verbs[edit]

Finnish grammar does not contrast momentanes and semelfactives. For some reason most verbs are currently categorized in the latter, while the boilerplate at Category:Finnish verbs only links the former. --Tropylium (talk) 12:25, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

April 2015[edit]


This just sounds too silly, at least from a North American perspective, and is really not something I would ever think to type in if looking for the category. Is there anyone to whom Category:en:Toilet would not be equally or more intuitive than Category:en:WC? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

I've complained about this one before, back when it was a template: I would hazard a guess that there are very few in the US that even know what WC refers to. It's also odd to see it categorized under Category:Rooms, especially since it's the only subcategory under it. That means that Category:Feces is a sub-sub-sub-category of Category:Buildings and structures- counterintuitive, to say the least. The other subcategory of Category:WC, Category:Toiletry is another oddity, since it has nothing to do with water closets, and contains Category:Cosmetics
The problem is that all of the common English terms are euphemisms, and most have had considerable evolution in meaning, so there's nothing really clear and obvious worldwide. Strictly speaking, a water closet is the plumbing fixture, but has apparently come to mean the room that houses it. This is also true of toilet, and, I believe, loo, as well (our entry is ambiguous about that). At least water closet isn't ambiguous- toilet also refers to grooming, washing one's face, etc. Another US term, bathroom can refer to a room containing a bath, and lavatory can refer to a sink. Terms such as restroom, and ladies' room/men's room are vague enough that anyone who doesn't already know what they refer to will have no clue from the name. We need to figure out which term is most recognizable in all parts of the world.
As I mentioned above, we really need to rethink this part of the category tree: feces have little to do with buildings, and cosmetics have nothing to do with feces. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:29, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
What he said, basically. The whole structure needs redoing. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:46, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

East Frisian Lects[edit]

This is an issue that needs to be resolved soon: there are 90 module errors related to it.

First let me lay out the linguistic details:

East Frisian, a language of Lower Saxony in Germany, is, along with West Frisian in the Netherlands and North Frisian in Germany, one of the w:Frisian languages. It has historically consisted of two dialect groups: one near the Ems River, and the other near the Weser River. The Weser dialects are all now extinct, with the w:Wursten Frisian dialect surviving into at least the 1700s, and the last speaker of w:Wangerooge Frisian dying in 1953. Although most of the Ems dialects died out by the 18th century, Saterland Frisian has survived to the present day. The extinct dialects were absorbed into Low German to become East Frisian Low Saxon.

The ISO has typically made a massive mess out of the Germanic languages, and they really screwed up in this case- until recently, it was impossible to tell if their code for "East Frisian", frs, referred to Frisian East Frisian or to East Frisian Low Saxon. If the first were true, it would overlap with Saterland Frisian, stq. If the second were true, it would be just another of the Low German lects that we decided earlier to treat as German Low German, nds-de (not Dutch Low Saxon, nds-nl, in spite of having "Saxon" in the name). Because of this ambiguity, the frs code was pressed into service for Frisian East Frisian in upwards of 140 etymologies and translations (there might have been entries, too, but I have no way to tell).

A few weeks ago, I mentioned to User:-sche that the online description of another lect had been updated. In the process of checking this out, he discovered that frs was now unambiguously described as East Frisian Low Saxon, and thus redundant to nds-de. After making the usual checks of the categories and changing uses of frs that he knew about, he removed frs from the data module. Unfortunately, East Frisian is mostly only mentioned in etymologies as cognates, and cognates don't show up in any of the categories, nor do redlinked translations. User:Leasnam (who added most of the frs references in the first place), -sche and I have been able to whittle it down from 137 entries in Category:Pages with module errors, to the present 90 just by getting rid of unnecessary ones and by changing recognizable instances of Saterland Frisian and East Frisian Low Saxon to the correct language codes.

As I see it, there are two halfway-decent options:

  1. Merge all of Frisian East Frisian into Saterland Low Frisian, stq, since the latter is the only surviving dialect of the former.
  2. Create an exception code for Frisian East Frisian, such as gmw-efr or gmw-fre.

There's also the possibilty of restoring frs as Frisian East Frisian, but that would put us in direct contradiction to the ISO standard, and leave things open for all kinds of confusion.

The first probably fits the linguistic facts best, but the second may be more practical, at least in the short run.

I've found no references on East Frisian Low Saxon, and very little on Saterland Frisian (there's a Saterland Frisian Wiktionary, but most of the remaining terms aren't mentioned there). There is, at least, one good dictionary of Frisian East Frisian available online. Those with better sources apparently don't have the time to work on this right now. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't think restoring frs is a good idea for the confusion you mentioned. I think option 1 is the best; we would then treat Saterland Frisian as the main dialect of East Frisian. Option 2 would just introduce more ambiguity, since one language would suddenly become a part of another. This is why we eliminated the Low German varieties in the first place. —CodeCat 17:28, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it wouldn't make sense to have both "East Frisian" and "Saterland Frisian" (they are not sufficiently distinct), so option 2 would only make sense if we changed instances of stq to the new pan-East-Frisian code and {{label}}-ed them. But we do need to recognize that there are inclusible East Frisian words which are not Saterland Frisian (namely, all the words and forms that we know — from records — existed in the non-Saterland varieties of East Frisian). Precedent exists of us repurposing codes to refer to slightly more things than the ISO intended them to refer to, e.g. we use gcf to refer to both gcf and acf and we used en to refer to both en-proper and hwc (Hawai'ian Creole English) and pld (Polari). Hence, I would add "East Frisian", "Eastern Frisian" etc as alternative names of stq, and then change all remaining uses of frs to stq to solve the module errors. Then, at leisure, we can go back through the affected pages and specify, whenever possible, which precise dialect they are from. (It may look a bit ugly to have e.g. "Wursten Saterland Frisian foo" or "Saterland Frisian foo (Wursten dialect)", but it's probably the best we can do, since changing the canonical name of stq to "East Frisian" would just invite people to become confused about it and misuse it again.) - -sche (discuss) 16:58, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
By the way, with all these module errors on highly visited pages, we can't really wait for this to go through RFM procedure. I think whoever sees this next, if (s)he has the time, should implement -sche's temporary solution. (I myself will do it if I can get my work done in meatspace quickly enough.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:36, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

June 2015[edit]

Category:Perching birds[edit]

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2015/June#Category:Perching_birds.

This used to be at Category:Passerines, but was moved a few months ago - I would like to suggest it be moved back. Passerines is the more commonly used term (Google Ngram), particularly in the bird community. I doubt perching birds is in particularly common use; the common term is probably songbirds, which is technically inaccurate as it is usually taken to mean only the oscines. Keith the Koala (talk) 11:30, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I've moved this to the proper venue for such requests. I'll comment on substance shortly. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:44, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for redefining the meaning of "shortly"... I renamed the category in the first place in an effort to make it more accessible to general users: I remembered seeing the Passeriformes referred to in various encyclopedias and bird books over the years as the "Perching Birds", and I also wondered if anyone would be confused by the fact that "-ines" names for animals are usually reserved for subfamilies (which end in -inae). Given that most users of this dictionary are probably not "in the bird community" and probably have never heard of terms such as passerines or oscines before coming here, I'm not sure how important it is to reflect usage in this case. That said, there are probably only a handful of languages with enough bird names to even need an intermediate category like this, so it's not really that big a deal. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
"Passerines" is uncommon, but it's not some obscure technical term - turn on Springwatch and you can hear Chris Packham talking about passerines until your wings fall off. "Perching birds" is really no better - nobody actually says "perching birds" except to try and explain what "passerines" means, on top of which it's not SoP (lots of other birds perch) so people might think they understand it when they don't. tbh, I'd be happiest with just lumping all birds in Category:Birds, I think it's easy to overcategorize these things. Keith the Koala (talk) 14:42, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
"Passerines" remind me of the often-used fungus group, the LBMs (little brown mushrooms).
If we continue to develop vernacular names and taxonomic names in parallel (to the extent that they are parallel), we can have the luxury of different classifications in different languages, not to mention the structure that emerges from Derived terms and the semantic relations headings. The relationships among taxonomic names are likely to diverge increasingly from those among vernacular names.
Among bird names, though, there is a major effort to have vernacular language names that correspond to taxonomic names and relationships. (Similarly with mammals.) The IOC birdname website has English bird family names (sometimes in form like "Kites, hawks, and eagles" or "Pheasants and allies") that seem designed to be in one-to-one correspondence with taxonomic family names. There are frequent correspondences at genus and species level as well. I'm not sure about higher levels.
Birds (Aves) are a class (or a clade) that we have fairly well covered AFAICT. It affords us one of the best opportunities to have good vernacular categorization and naming. I don't see why we don't have categories that correspond to multiple levels of groups of birds, though I would prefer that "bird" be left to at least one of the definition, image, and Hypernyms in the entry to communicate.
Both 'Passerines' and 'Perching birds' seem like high levels of categorization that don't well correspond to words in vernacular language usage. The IOC doesn't help much with terms like 'Oscines' and 'Suboscines'. A vernacular type-based name like 'Sparrow-like birds' would be communicative, but has little else to recommend it. DCDuring TALK 23:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
The birding equivalent is LBJs (little brown jobs). Chuck Entz (talk) 06:04, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Category:en:Counties and regions of England[edit]

We also have Category:en:Counties of England - suggest Category:en:Counties and regions of England should be moved to Category:en:Regions of England to cover just things that aren't counties. Keith the Koala (talk) 11:49, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I Agree with Keith the Koala about the Counties and Regions of England move Mr Taz (talk) 15:00, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

  • The category has been set up with an invalid label, so I will try to sort it out. At the moment I'm wondering which category boroughs and unitary authorities which aren't named after a town or city, such as Gravesham and Thurrock, can go in. DonnanZ (talk) 22:23, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

(Proto-)Western Malayo-Polynesian into (Proto-)Malayo-Polynesian[edit]

As discussed earlier this year. Western Malayo-Polynesian is a solely geographic group, it is not recognized by our language categorization system, and a proto-language appendix seems to be superfluous.

In addition to the mentioned durian issue, we have currently 13 Proto-WMP lemmas, with a breakdown as follows:

  • 10 entries are fully identical to corresponding Proto-MP entries (e.g. *huaji = *huaji, *wada = *wada)
  • 2 entries (*huaji-ŋ, *qari-mauŋ) are reconstructed from very scarce data, and the most likely situation is that they were just randomly lost in Central-Eastern MP.
  • 1 entry (*azak) is, per the cited source (Blust's dictionary), probably a late Wanderwort originating in Malay(ic) and not inherited.

--Tropylium (talk) 15:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Even if there are regional differences, you don't have to resort to separate protolanguages to explain them: for one thing, the substratum languages encountered off of Southeast Asia had to have been vastly different from those farther east. As for animal (and to a lesser extent plant) names, there's the matter of the w:Wallace Line and other such boundaries: the farther east you go, the fewer non-marine Asian species you find. By the time you get to Polynesia, the only flightless land animals (New Zealand is an exception, or course) are human-transported creatures such as pigs, chickens, dogs and rats, and the only widely-distributed plants are those with seeds that can drift on the currents, or Polynesian canoe plants- if you don't have wild beasts, you're not likely to preserve inherited names for them. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I've started to merge these. - -sche (discuss) 05:14, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

July 2015[edit]

Category:Telugu years[edit]

User:Mglovesfun tagged this on 17 May 2012‎. I suppose he meant that it should be moved to Category:te:Jovian years. There are sixty Telugu years, based on the Jovian cycle that repeats every 60 years. Originally used in Sanskrit, see w:Samvatsara. —Stephen (Talk) 06:22, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

August 2015[edit]

the Kewa lects[edit]

I propose to merge [kjy] "South Kewa"/"Erave Kewa", [kjs] "East Kewa" and [kew] "West Kewa"/"Pasuma Kewa" into [kew] as "Kewa". AFAICT most literature treats Kewa as a single language, and the only effect having three codes has had upon us so far is that our Kewa content is duplicated under several headers (as in ipa and utyali). There seems to be a far more marked difference between normal Kewa and its pandanus avoidance register than between South, East and West. - -sche (discuss) 06:00, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

West African Pidgin English varieties[edit]

Ethnologue has assigned codes to some but not all of the varieties of West African Pidgin English, and we in turn have incorporated some (e.g. pcm) but not all (e.g. not gpe) of those codes. As WP notes, the "contemporary English-based pidgin and creole languages are so similar that they are sometimes grouped together under the name 'West African Pidgin English'" (a name which also denotes their predecessor which developed in the 1700s). WP's examples are illustrative, particularly in that its Ghanaian and Nigerian Pidgin English examples are identical. I propose to merge at least the following three varieties into wes, renaming it "West African Pidgin English":

  1. Ghanaian Pidgin English (gpe)
  2. Nigerian Pidgin English (pcm)
  3. Cameroonian Pidgin English (wes)

We could also discuss whether or not to merge Sierra Leone Krio (kri, which WP notes its often mistaken for English slang due to its similarity to English, but which has a somewhat distinct alphabet), Pichinglis / Fernando Po Creole (fpe), and Liberian Kreyol / Liberian Pidgin English (lir). - -sche (discuss) 21:11, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

The question is a very complex one. Firstly (but of least importance), scholars are divided on which lects have creolised and which have not, but it is generally agreed upon that at least some of the language you mentioned are not pidgins, which would make the name "West African Pidgin English" somewhat of a misnomer (the more neutral name "Wes-Kos" have been suggested as an alternative, but even linguists haven't fully adopted it). Secondly, all these lects are remarkably similar on a lexical level, but that's unsurprising; after all, they resulted from separate but very similar language contact events, and then probably modified each other (one scholar posits that Krio and Cameroonian Pidgin English relexified each other to some degree after pidginisation). The similarities are also obscured by the fact that there is nothing close to an agreed orthography for most of these, and pronunciation does differ a bit across West Africa. Linguistically, I'd probably merge them all, but practically that may not be the best decision. I know we have entries in pcm, but probably next to nothing for the rest, and if somebody wants to add them, given how each lect is very neatly assigned to a certain West African country, at least it won't be confusing for them to do so. Conclusion: the literature is schizophrenic, the lects mutually intelligible, and the existing situation remarkably unproblematic. Therefore I abstain. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:19, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Appendix:Glossary of collective nouns by subject[edit]

Appendix:English collective nouns[edit]

Appendix:Glossary of collective nouns by collective term[edit]

(Appendix:English collective nouns is edit protected, so I can't place the template there, but I guess that would be the more sensible target location)

Redundant to each other. Both pages have serious clean-up issues, of course (has anyone ever actually called a group of cheetahs a "coalition", or is that a joke at the expense of perhaps the British coalition government? (Apparently it's in use!) Will anyone ever have need of a collective noun for Jezebels?). Smurrayinchester (talk) 13:12, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Most of these fancy collective nouns floating around the Internet are artificial words that amateur philologists pull out of their asses in order to look “cool”. Most of them have never been used and will probably never be used. If you think the ones listed at the page are bad, look at the edit histories. For this reason it is important that the validity of collectives added to these appendices (and to the mainspace) isn’t taken for granted.
On topic: Appendix:English collective nouns looks redundant to Category:English collective nouns, so I favour deleting it. But I think Appendix:Glossary of collective nouns by subject is useful to keep around due to its presentation advantages over a category page. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:50, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

(Added Appendix:Glossary of collective nouns by collective term - the sorting issues that led to these appendices being split would be better resolved with a sortable table). Smurrayinchester (talk) 10:55, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikisaurus:pros and cons[edit]

This is a newly created Wikisaurus entry which was populated almost entirely with SOP phrases, but there's a potential for something having to do with pairing of opposites- if we don't already have it. Any suggestions? Chuck Entz (talk) 03:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

I think that would work better as an appendix rather than a Wikisaurus. Then we'd have entries like ups and downs, hot and cold, yes and no, etc. Smurrayinchester (talk) 08:49, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

September 2015[edit]

Category:English verbs with two objects[edit]

Discussion moved from WT:FEED.

What about calling it 'English ditransitive verbs'? As far as I can tell they are exactly the same - one object is dative and the other accusative. —This comment was unsigned.

On the one hand, the current name is probably clearer to the average person, although even better would be "which take" instead of "with". On the other hand, the format the anon proposes would fit how Category:English transitive verbs and Category:English intransitive verbs are named. - -sche (discuss) 03:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
I oppose the use of ditransitive, bitransitive, and ambitransitive in any content visible to ordinary users in any entry except as headwords, ie, in ditransitive, bitransitive, and ambitransitive. DCDuring TALK 13:46, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
I agree with DCDuring. Would be better as Category:English verbs which take two objects. Also, it should have a lot more than four entries. e.g. book, get, cook, keep, bring, make, pour, save, find, lend, make, offer, owe, pay, promise, read, show, sing, teach, fix, leave... —Pengo (talk) 02:00, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Translations of adjective sense of autumn[edit]

These need to be moved / merged with those at autumnal. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:59, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Category:The Gambia to Category:Gambia[edit]

I know that the country generally takes the definite article in speech, but somehow it feels different when used as a category or title, when just "Gambia" sounds more appropriate. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

@Μετάknowledge: Would you prefer Category:Gambia, the? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 22:30, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
@I'm so meta even this acronym: I hope that was a joke. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:35, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
@Μετάknowledge: I'm afraid not. :-S Category:Gambia, the would appear (correctly) under 'G' in the category for these categories, rather than under 'T'. I wanted to propose an alternative that you would be happy with, rather than just posting a vote in opposition. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 11:26, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
Why should we have Category:The Gambia when we don't have Category:The United Kingdom, Category:The Netherlands, Category:The United States of America? Chuck Entz (talk) 12:14, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz: Those three are not analogous, in my opinion. Category:The Gambia is more like Category:The Hague. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:35, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
Nobody ever says "Hague", while people do say "Gambia". So that comparison doesn't work either. —CodeCat 21:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Support Category:Gambia. —CodeCat 14:30, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
Support Category:Gambia. "In the Gambia" is only slightly more common than "in Gambia" (and the latter is, in any case, very common). "In the Ukraine" has historically (until the 1990s) been far more common than "in Ukraine", but we correctly have Category:Ukraine without the article. - -sche (discuss) 04:57, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
@-sche: What should we do about Category:The Hague? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 12:26, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
Do we have enough content to justify creating it? We don't have very many city categories; we have a London category with a respectable 94 entries, but not a Paris, Seattle, Chicago or Beijing category. - -sche (discuss) 19:51, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
@-sche: Well, it's pretty clear where this vote is going, so it doesn't really matter. But I'd like to know what you would do if we had a Category:The Hague. There's every chance that it'd come up. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:49, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
It's hard to get a sense of how commonly the place is referred to without the article, but it's well under 1/6th of the time, since "in Hague" vs "in the Hague" gets a 1/6th ratio in Google's Ngrams Viewer and most of the hits of "Hague" are of it as an author's last name or a reference to the Hague Convention ("in Hague Convention states"). So, I would retain the article as part of the name there. - -sche (discuss) 02:54, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
@-sche: As Category:The Hague, Category:Hague, the, or something else? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 11:31, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
"The Hague". - -sche (discuss) 01:10, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
@-sche: Thanks for the clarification. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 12:36, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Oppose; I prefer Category:The Gambia. The The is an integral part of its name, more so than the the of the Netherlands or the Bahamas. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:47, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
I've always called it "Gambia", so I guess you're mistaken. —CodeCat 14:36, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
For years I called the capital of Indonesia "Jaktara"; that doesn't mean someone who says "The capital of Indonesia is called Jakarta in English" is mistaken. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
"In the Gambia" is just slightly more common than "in Gambia", and likewise for "to [the] Gambia". In contrast, "in the Netherlands" is roughly 20 times more common than "in Netherlands", and likewise for "to". Compare (the) Ukraine. - -sche (discuss) 01:08, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

The numbers are, currently:

 — I.S.M.E.T.A. 07:30, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Support Category:Gambia. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 13:00, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Support Category:Gambia per -sche, especially since in Gambia, in the Gambia at Google Ngram Viewer gives similar rates and I seem to prefer to drop "the" when the rates allow it. I also would not oppose deleting the category since it has too high granularity, IMHO. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:14, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Category:Words from Shakespeare[edit]

I'd prefer Category:Terms from Shakespeare. Or something better --Zo3rWer (talk) 14:36, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Support switching "words" to "terms", additionally support clearer naming such as Category:Terms coined by Shakespeare. --Tropylium (talk) 18:58, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Also support switching to something like Category:Terms coined by Shakespeare. Note that we also need to update Wikipedia Shakespeare's influence § Vocabulary. Enosh (talk) 11:51, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Support Category:Terms coined by Shakespeare. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 12:59, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Support Category:Terms coined by William Shakespeare. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 11:58, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Support Category:Terms coined by William Shakespeare, but is there a Category:Words first attested in Shakespeare too? —Pengo (talk) 01:49, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
In a lot of cases, the words are first attested in Shakespeare. The claim that he coined them is different... so I think something like Category:Terms first attested in Shakespeare would be more accurate. - -sche (discuss) 23:57, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Support moving it to Category:Terms first attested in Shakespeare per -sche (I don't think we can distinguish those that he himself coined). @Tropylium, Enoshd, Daniel Carrero, I'm so meta even this acronym, Pengo, how do you feel about doing that instead? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:55, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Support moving it to Category:Terms first attested in Shakespeare rather than "coined". --Daniel Carrero (talk) 07:57, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Support in this case. Maybe with English prefixed, not to be so ethnocentric and for consistency. Enosh (talk) 14:43, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Support, though I'm not sure if specifying English is required. Suppose though we had similar categories for other authors who had written in multiple languages: would we want to have distinct categories like "English terms first attested in McShmoo" versus "Scots terms first attested in McSchmoo", or would a single "Terms first attested in McSchmoo" do for both? --Tropylium (talk) 18:10, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
I prefer using the language name for clarity and consistency with other categories. I wouldn't mind having Category:Chinese terms first attested in Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Category:Portuguese terms first attested in Guimarães Rosa. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 18:35, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Support Category:English terms first attested in the works of William Shakespeare. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:32, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

The current category's text says:

This category includes English words and phrases coined by Shakespeare, or otherwise derived from his works.
Note that this is not “Words which are first attested in Shakespeare”, which may have existed earlier in speech, but words plausibly created by Shakespeare

...which is why I thought "coined" was more appropriate, and "attested" would be a separate category. I'm not fussed about the particular category name change. Just pointing that out. Pengo (talk) 21:38, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

  • Oppose anything except current title and Category:Terms from Shakespeare: For one, my general opposition to needless moving and merging. For two, shorter title generally equals better title. Purplebackpack89 16:25, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done Ipadguy (talk) 12:38, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Ipadguy moved it to Category:Terms from Shakespeare, despite that not being supported by consensus as far as I can tell. This move was inappropriate, so I have deleted that page for now. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:10, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

October 2015[edit]

Category:Capital cities > Category:Country capitals[edit]

Assuming that Category:Capital cities is for capitals of countries, such as Paris, Rome, etc., then the name Category:Country capitals would be more specific.

We have Category:US State Capitals for some "capital cities" that are capitals of states, not countries; and today I created Category:State capitals of Brazil as a similar category, so I would appreciate if the "Capital cities" category used a clearer name. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 22:15, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose: Capital cities should be kept as a container category, at least. And you're going to have to create a lot more subcategories if you want capital cities to be empty. Purplebackpack89 05:25, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Template:ast-adj-mf and Template:ast-adj[edit]

These should be merged into Template:ast-adj, IMHO. --Zo3rWer (talk) 10:02, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Support. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:30, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Category:en:Exonyms -> Category:English exonyms[edit]

Per Wiktionary:Votes/2011-04/Lexical categories, move:

Rationale: This makes these categories nominally consistent with all other categories that describe the words ("Category:English blablabla") rather than their meanings ("Category:en:blablabla"), such as all categories listed in Category:English terms by etymology.

In fact, I believe Category:English exonyms should be a subcategory of Category:English terms by etymology.

It's interesting to note that Category:English terms by etymology was once called Category:en:Etymology before it was moved multiple times. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 23:22, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Being an exonym is not a matter of how a word was created. In fact, terms often don't start off as exonyms, but become exonyms as the languages diverge and evolve. So it's not appropriate to put it under etymology. —CodeCat 00:11, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

*Oppose: Exonyms should remain as a category and English exonyms should be a subcategory of it. Purplebackpack89 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I nominated specifically "Category:en:Exonyms -> Category:English exonyms", you mentioned "English exonyms should be [] ", so I don't see how this would work as an oppose vote to my nomination. I don't suppose you wanted the category to remain named "Category:en:Exonyms", right?
In any event, the format that other umbrella categories use according to Wiktionary:Votes/2011-04/Lexical categories is "Category:Exonyms by language" -> "Category:English exonyms". Like "Category:Nouns by language" -> "Category:English nouns". --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:16, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Oh, sorry, I missed the "en" in there. Retracting my vote. Purplebackpack89 00:22, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
No problem, thank you. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:26, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
This should not be controversial, but it's wise to check. DCDuring TALK 23:32, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Category:Music genres -> Category:Musical genres[edit]

I am requesting that this page be moved to Category:Musical genres. Nobody refers to the contents of this category as "music genres", the common term is musical genres. Purplebackpack89 20:07, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Oppose. The claim made in the nomination is blatantly false. — Ungoliant (falai) 20:10, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
@Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV How often have you heard a Native English speaker use the phrase "music genres"? Cuz I'm a Native English speaker; I hear "musical genres" and "genres of music" often, but almost never "music genres" Purplebackpack89 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Very, very often. — Ungoliant (falai) 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Keep. The rationale given makes no sense, as Ungoliant mentions. —CodeCat 20:53, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
The rationale is that the phraseology "musical genres" is more common than "music genres". How the hell is that not a sensible reason for a rename? Purplebackpack89 21:44, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
It would make sense if it were obviously true. —CodeCat 21:47, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Well, I guess it's true, CodeCat Purplebackpack89 21:57, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
It doesn't look like it's obviously true, nor did it appear so when you first made your claim, nor is your claim that nobody refers to it as "music genres" accurate, as we can see now from the data. —CodeCat 22:18, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Why does "obvious" have to be the threshold? If it's 60-40 or 70-30 in favor of musical, the title should be musical. And the data say's it's musical by better than 2-1. It doesn't have to be 99-1, though in my circles it's damn near that. Purplebackpack89 22:50, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
I don't think this threshold is big enough to consider renaming. "Music genre" is clearly widespread enough as well, and easily understood. We don't always have to use the exact most common phrasing. And "obvious" is a threshold because how else would we make a decision based on your claims? You never gave any evidence, so all we could go by was that your claim was not obviously true. Obvious would be if someone said that "a bird in the hand" is a lot more common than "a mouse in the hand". —CodeCat 23:59, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Oh, like you've never renamed anything primarily because the name change was "obvious" to you. Right... Purplebackpack89 00:06, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support I find a 2:1 difference recently and a larger difference earlier at Google N-grams, favoring musical genre(s). It seems more natural to me though I often think of senses of musical other than what is intended when I hear this. DCDuring TALK 23:40, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support moving per DCDuring: GNV prefers Musical genres in 2:1 ratio in 2008 and in 3:1 in 2000 ((music genre*3),musical genre at Google Ngram Viewer). The GNV picture until 1940[2] is even more striking. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:45, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

November 2015[edit]

Continuation of #Category:en:Names into Category:English names[edit]

Reviving the earlier discussion, I'm still bothered by the fact that we have two different categories for names. But the previous discussion also made it clear that it's not as easy as just merging them.

CodeCat 00:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, what I am going to say is somewhat off-topic and maybe I'm minority on that, but I would not mind using the naming system "Category:English xxxx" for all topical categories: Category:en:Chess -> English terms related to chess. (or any better name along those lines) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:59, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
"Category:en:Transliteration of personal names" could be renamed to "Category:English names transliterated from other languages", I suppose. What's the matter with the demonyms category? It contains demonyms, as expected. Would it be better titled "English demonyms", on the model of "English phrases"? - -sche (discuss) 06:02, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
"Category:en:Transliteration of personal names" would be better named "English transliterations of (foreigners') personal names". Notice the existence of e.g.Category:Latvian transliterations of English names.‎ Names of non-English speakers are not English names. I agree with CodeCat that place names belong to topic categories.--Makaokalani (talk) 14:32, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Wiktionary:About English to Wiktionary:English editing guidelines, or similar[edit]

And likewise for other languages. "About English" doesn't really reflect the purpose of these pages, they are really a collections of rules and guidelines specific to a single language. So I propose to rename them to something more descriptive. The name "editing guidelines" is up for debate, I'm mainly concerned about changing the name, not about what the name should be in the end. Other possibilities I could suggest include "English entry guidelines", "Editing English entries". —CodeCat 19:14, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Probably a good idea, despite longstanding practice. I guess "entry guidelines" is the best out of the possibilities you suggested, but I don't love the sound of any of them. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:23, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Yeah English entry guidelines sounds good to me. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:02, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Renaming lua[edit]

This language is currently called "Tshiluba", which is a really awful choice. First of all, tshi- is that good ol' language prefix that we often try not to have in language names (which I think is ci- in modern orthography), and there are in fact two Luba languages (the other is lu "Luba-Katanga"). To avoid confusion, we rightfully give neither the name Luba, but this is not much better, and we should rename it to "Luba-Kasai", as Wikipedia does. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:28, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

On the one hand, we do try to avoid prefixes. On the other hand, "Luba-Kasai" seems to more often be a placename and an ethnonym than a language name, and "Tshiluba" seems to be about twice as common. - -sche (discuss) 21:15, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
The issue is that, AFAICT, "Tshiluba" is more commonly used because it refers to both Luba languages! This is not so much about prefixes so much as the issue of the name being exceedingly ambiguous in its referent. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:28, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

December 2015[edit]

Wiktionary:Blocking policy -> Wiktionary:Blocking[edit]

Suggestion: move Wiktionary:Blocking policy -> Wiktionary:Blocking.

Reason: "policy" is redundant. We could have Wiktionary:Entry layout policy as well, and maybe Wiktionary:Policy for criteria for inclusion. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 20:06, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Good point; furthermore the page contains some non-policy information. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
X mark.svgN Not done Ipadguy (talk) 13:03, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Reopened now that the above-mentioned vote is over. - -sche (discuss) 04:33, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Template:rfe and Template:rfelite[edit]

Both of these templates serve the same purpose, the only difference is in looks. So I think they should be merged. I have no particular preference for which we should keep, just that one of them should go. —CodeCat 23:21, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Provisional oppose, although I may change my mind; I'd like to see what @DCDuring, DTLHS think. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
They should either be merged (with one redirecting to the other), or kept. Since I generally don't like templates being needlessly consolidated, I'll say keep Purplebackpack89 23:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't really care. DTLHS (talk) 23:43, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Looks is a personal preference, so one of them should go. The "lite" one doesn't let an editor add reasoning (and I can only imagine reasoning awkwardly tacked onto the end of the notice), so I think that {{rfelite}} should be deleted. —suzukaze (tc) 23:46, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
@suzukaze-c Comments can always be added directly to the etymology section or as an unnamed parameter in any template that does not rely on such parameters for its functionality. DCDuring TALK 00:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't see any particular benefit to tidying by combining them. The templates differ by their look. That is not an insignificant consideration to whatever normal users may use our work, should there be any.
I think all of the big-display-box templates are hideous and potentially distracting to normal users. I'd bet that most contributions of etymologies are generated by contributors (not normal users) who find the entries by means other than noticing {{rfe}} (or {{rfelite}}). The same is probably true of {{rfi}} and {{rfc}}. I'd further bet that the main function these boxes serve is to steer a contributor to the particular part of the entry that needs work. A big box seems unnecessary for that function. In contrast, in the cases of {{rfd}} and {{rfv}}, arguably the distraction is intentional and constructive, as it serves as a warning to users that there may be something wrong with the definitions or that they might want to participate in the discussion about them.
I'd love to hear the thoughts of others, 1., on the effect of the differing displays on different types of normal users and, 2., on whether we still have the prospect of gaining such users in sufficient numbers to be of any concern to us. DCDuring TALK 00:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
I think for clarity I'd merge {{etystub}} into {{rfelite}} rather than the other way around. But we should have both etystub and rfelite as they do the exact same job. {{rfe}} should really only be used when no etymology is present because it doesn't interact well with either text that's before it or after it. But it is more obviously visible, being in a box. Renard Migrant (talk) 20:11, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
{{etystub}} has a different message. It allows for the possibility that the etymology exists but is incomplete. Neither of the other two do that. Perhaps at least one of the two others should have a switch that changed the display to indicate the etymology, though present, is incomplete. The problem with not having such wording is that some new contributor could view {{rfe}} or {{rfelite}} as not having been removed when the etymology was added. Converting {{etystub}} to have a more modest appearance like that of {{rfelite}} would be an improvement. The big-box look it now has is enough to make me occasionally miss the presence of the stub etymology that is there. DCDuring TALK 22:41, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
I think the nuance is much too small to be worth keeping. Just change it to 'absent or incomplete' and you're done. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:03, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

January 2016[edit]

Appendix:Word formation verb -en noun -ness[edit]

Bad title. Need the word English in there, and something more 'fluent'. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:23, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

As creator of this apx, I totally agree. Just wish I could think of something !! :-/ -- ALGRIF talk 15:22, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Hows about Appendix:English adjectives with derived terms in -en and -ness? Also, I think the derivation "strong" => "strengthen" and "strongness" may not be accurate and, in any event, is the weakest exemplar. DCDuring TALK 16:31, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Resurrected out of the archives; anyone have ideas for a better title? - -sche (discuss) 04:15, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Appendix:Swadesh lists for Austronesian languages etc[edit]

and Appendix:Swadesh for Malayo-Polynesian languages - Appendix:Cognate sets for Austronesian languages

These overlap a lot, and should be merged in some way. -- Prince Kassad 17:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Added another one I found. -- Prince Kassad 10:12, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Resurrected out of the archives. - -sche (discuss) 04:20, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

February 2016[edit]

Badly named categories[edit]

Category:English words with different meanings in different locations[edit]

This was originally nominated at WT:RFDO as this page didn't exist yet. I feel uneasy about the title. There's clearly some merit to it, like pissed meaning drink in the UK and angry in the US, but I hate the title 'English words with different meanings in different locations'. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:53, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

A similar page was RFDed/RFMed in the past; I'll see if I can find it. It was the one which was originally titled something like "words having different meanings on different sides of the pond"(!)... - -sche (discuss) 20:03, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
It was Category talk:Pronunciations wildly different across the pond. - -sche (discuss) 00:59, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Category:English words with consonant pseudo-digraphs[edit]

Category:English words with vowel pseudo-digraphs[edit]

Category:English words with pseudo-digraphs[edit]

Category:English words with optional capitalisation[edit]

Category:English words with vocalic W[edit]

comment from the archive of unresolved discussions that went stale in 2010

Should be Category:English terms with consonant pseudo-digraphs. Ditto for Category:English words with vowel pseudo-digraphs. Mglovesfun (talk) 18:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I've added some categories. These categories, and the terribly named Category:English words with different meanings in different locations, are the only ones that begin "English words with..."; everything else we have is "English terms with...". Could someone with a bot please rename these to use "terms"? - -sche (discuss) 04:29, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
Incidentally the pseudo-digraph categories are probably woefully out of date and possibly infeasible to maintain. - -sche (discuss) 04:32, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
"English words with different meanings in different locations" is legitimately hilariously bad. I thought it meant deixis (i.e. "here" means different places depending on where I'm standing when I say it). Equinox 08:42, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
I've just deleted it. After sitting at RFM so three years, no good name was put forward, on the whole it's redundant to the dialect categories and hence most theoretically relevant entries aren't in it, and many entries that were in it had only slightly different meanings, like pavement and galosh. - -sche (discuss) 19:02, 14 August 2016 (UTC)


Move to {{borrowed}} like {{derived}} and {{inherited}}. For consistency. Will change virtually nothing as everyone use {{bor}} anyway. It's just a neatness exercise. Renard Migrant (talk) 13:22, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Support, kind of. The template itself actually says "borrowing"... —CodeCat 17:36, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
I think the template text should be changed to "Borrowed from" anyway. --WikiTiki89 17:40, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
I would support that too, but many entries use the template as part of a larger sentence, and changing the text would break that. —CodeCat 17:43, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
I hadn't thought of that. Like CodeCat says, "a Medieval borrowing from" would become "a Medieval borrowed from". Renard Migrant (talk) 17:48, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
We could get rid of the text from the template altogether, and add it manually to the entries instead. Then it would work like {{der}} and {{inh}}, which don't include text either. There's also {{calque}}, which has a similar issue. —CodeCat 17:55, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
I'll withdraw my support for this proposal per CodeCat, but I don't want the proposal removed. Abstain in other words. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:45, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Should we perhaps avoid templates that include too much predefined text, in the future? You have more freedom if you can specify the text yourself in the entry. —CodeCat 22:38, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
I definitely agree with that. --WikiTiki89 19:24, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Category:Most used Icelandic verbs[edit]

The naming of this should be adapted to the naming of the other "basic words" (so, Category:98 basic Icelandic verbs), which should also be standardized: currently, there is Category:1000 English basic words (with 997 words) and Category:1000 Japanese basic words (with 933 words), but the "basic" is on the other side of the language name in Category:1000 basic Italian words (with 8 words), Category:1000 basic Spanish words (with 417 words), etc. - -sche (discuss) 09:46, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Not moved; instead, the other categories were renamed after a different discussion. - -sche (discuss) 06:18, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

have it[edit]

2 definitions: "to have died" and "to be beyond repair"

These meanings only exist for have had it, which doesn't and should have these. The translations need to be moved and checked as well. DCDuring TALK 15:27, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

caught with one's hand in the cookie jar[edit]

Move to hand in the cookie jar (now a redirect to this), which is included in many more expressions than this one, eg have one's hand in the cookie jar, to catch someone with their hand in the cookie jar. I would be happy to add redirects and for all possessive determiners and for the various verb forms of catch and have and usage examples for a selection of these and perhaps others, such as put and keep. DCDuring TALK 21:35, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

As it is now a search for "catch with his hand in the cookie jar" does not find this entry. DCDuring TALK 21:37, 26 February 2016 (UTC)


Ancient Greek prefix. Request for move to ἀπο-. Since the oxia won't always appear in the same place, the oxia shouldn't appear on the prefix, right? Pinging LlywelynII, Saltmarsh, Angr, and Erutuon (the non-bot users who have edited ἀπό- hitherto). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 13:53, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

@I'm so meta even this acronym: Why not move it yourself? --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:15, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
@kc_kennylau: I wanted consensus to do so first. I'm not 100% confident when it comes to Ancient Greek, so I wanted agreement beforehand. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:29, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I agree that prefixes shouldn't have accent marks. If you look through Category:Ancient Greek words prefixed with ἀπό- you'll see that not one single word listed there actually has an ό. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:13, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
A search at LSJ for words beginning with ἀπό shows many (7+ pages) beginning with ἀπό', but a search for ἀπο seems to yield all of those in the first search and 36 additional pages with no diacritic.
Why couldn't we have both, with the dominant one as a main entry, possibly with a brief explanation of the situation and the other as a redirect. DCDuring TALK 16:50, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
That would work too. It should be moved to ἀπο-, but there's no reason to uncheck the "Leave a redirect?" box. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:58, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I support the move. It's only by chance that the omicron in some compounds with ἀπο- has an acute, not due to any inherent accent belonging to the prepositional prefix. Accent is generally either recessive or on the ultima; when it's recessive, there's a chance of accent falling on the omicron (if the ultima is short and the omicron is in the antepenult). Accent falls on the alpha in rare cases, apparently (in ἄποδος "give back!", though the form ἀπόδος is also listed; not sure when each is used). So both ἄπο- (ápo-) and ἀπό- (apó-) could be brief entries that point readers to ἀπο- (apo-). — Eru·tuon 20:30, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Sure, if most of the words using this prefix at LSJ are given without the accent, it makes sense (a) to have it at the unaccented form or (b) at least redirect from there. The prefix by itself should have the accent there, just like the preposition, nuh? What do the other dictionaries list it as? or do we have any general policy regarding treatment of accented prefixes? — LlywelynII 07:59, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
LSJ doesn't list prefixes; not sure about other lexicons.
Maybe this is information you already have, but here's my reasoning. In English, each part in a compound usually has its own accent. That's why Lieutenant Barclay in Star Trek: The Next Generation incorrectly said méta-thésis. He was applying the English stress rule: accent on first syllable, on each part of the compound.
Not how the Greek rules work. Only one of the last three syllables can have accent, even in compound words (at least according to the established rules of accent...). Accent is random: it can be based on the accent of the last element in the compound, or not. But prepositions are never the last element in the compound, so they always give up their right to have an accent when they become a prefix. So, ἀπό has its own accent as an independent word, but as a prefix it has no accent of its own. Different from English, where únder has accent on the first syllable whether it's a preposition or a prefix (únder-stánding). — Eru·tuon 08:57, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
A couple of points: (1) Prefixes are bound morphemes: they don't stand by themselves, so in Ancient Greek they don't have their own accent (even some free morphemes don't have accents of their own in grc). The preposition ἀπό (apó) has a stress of its own, but the prefix ἀπο- (apo-) doesn't. (2) It was Data who said "méta-thésis"; he was talking about the mispronunciation of Lt. Barclay's name as "Broccoli". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:42, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
Oops, you're right, it was Data talking about Barclay. Perhaps I need to rewatch TNG. :-) On your other point, are English disyllabic prepositional prefixes then not bound morphemes, because they have their own accent? — Eru·tuon 18:28, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I wouldn't draw that conclusion. English stress rules are different from Ancient Greek accent rules. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:10, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

@kc_kennylau, Angr, DCDuring, Erutuon, LlywelynII: The trouble with including entries — even redirects — for ἄπο- (ápo-) and ἀπό- (apó-) is that doing so would encourage linking to those non-morphemes, which would lead to derivations being split between three different derivations categories (namely the correct Category:Ancient Greek words prefixed with ἀπο- and the erroneous Category:Ancient Greek words prefixed with ἀπό- and Category:Ancient Greek words prefixed with ἄπο-) and is likely to give the wrong impression of why the oxia is in the place that it is (which, as Erutuon explains, is nothing at all to do with the prefix, and is rather due to the rules of the Ancient Greek recessive accent). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 02:15, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't feel like that's a huge danger. Irish suffixes generally appear in two forms, one after "broad" consonants and one after "slender" consonants, e.g. -óg and -eog, yet we have just one Category:Irish words suffixed with -óg. If anyone's tempted to add a word to the nonexistent Category:Irish words suffixed with -eog, the fact that it's a red link is probably reminder enough to categorize it under the alternative spelling instead. Surely once Category:Ancient Greek words prefixed with ἀπό- is deleted, its redness will also be reminder enough to people to use Category:Ancient Greek words prefixed with ἀπο- instead. It's not as if we have masses of inexperienced newbs falling over themselves to add Etymology sections to Ancient Greek entries. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:10, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
@Aɴɢʀ: I'm not so sure. If the prefix itself were blue-linked, I would take that to be a sign that the derivations category should also be created. The Irish -óg and -eog aren't analogous, because those are two forms of the same suffix; the Ancient Greek ἄπο- (ápo-) and ἀπό- (apó-) are not forms of ἀπο- (apo-), because the oxia is in no way part of the prefix. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 20:02, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Your point w/r/t redirects misleading editors w/r/t categories seems entirely mistaken.
More importantly, the conversation above was reaching the conclusion that ἀπό- (apó-) is prima facie illegitimate, not that it had a separate meaning. Were they mistaken? — LlywelynII 14:53, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
@LlywelynII: AFAICT, no one in this discussion believes that ἀπό- (apó-) has a separate meaning from ἀπο- (apo-). The (IMO mistaken) belief held by some (again, AFAICT) is that ἀπό- (apó-) and ἄπο- (ápo-) are alternative spellings of the prefix ἀπο- (apo-). As Erutuon has explained, where the oxia goes has nothing to do with the prefix, and is rather down to the rules of the Ancient Greek recessive accent. At this point, I think we're all agreed (pace, perhaps, yourself) that ἀπο- (apo-) should be lemmatised; the discussion now, I think, concerns whether ἀπό- (apó-) and ἄπο- (ápo-) should exist as redirects thereto. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 01:45, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Does anyone have any thoughts about the situations which would lead to the use of ἀπό- (apó-) and ἄπο- (ápo-)? Are there any? DCDuring TALK 01:56, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
@DCDuring: As Erutuon wrote above (in his post timestamped: 20:30, 27 February 2016), “Accent is generally either recessive or on the ultima; when it's recessive, there's a chance of accent falling on the omicron (if the ultima is short and the omicron is in the antepenult).” Epistulâ citato, he mentions ἄποδος (ápodos, give back!) as an example word where the oxia falls on the prefix's alpha in combination; this is merely an application of the same rule of the recessive accent, mut. mut., viz "[the] accent fall[s] on the [alpha] if the ultima is short and [alpha] is in the antepenult" (such a situation is rare because it only occurs in trisyllables). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 02:12, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
This is a dictionary. It is not a model of languages, except in support of its function as a dictionary. It has users. In what situation would a user get something out of the redirect? DCDuring TALK 02:38, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
@DCDuring: I misunderstood your earlier question. Re "In what situation would a user get something out of the redirect?", I don't know; copying and then pasting into the search box the first three letters of a given word? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 03:25, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
That sounds like it might happen. So why not have the redirects? DCDuring TALK 03:34, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
@DCDuring: The thing is, that user would need to remember to add a hyphen after those first three letters, which means that that user would have to have a pretty good idea that those first three letters constitute a prefix. How likely is it that a user will know that those first three letters constitute a prefix without knowing anything about what that prefix means? For someone that unfamiliar with Ancient Greek, I would think that the best (and perhaps only) indicator that those first three letters constitute a prefix would be their being linked to independently in an Ancient Greek entry's etymology section. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:41, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I would expect a wide variety of levels of knowledge of Greek, of questions being addressed, and even of basic computer skills among users. Redirects are cheap and abundantly used in other modern online dictionaries. So why not? DCDuring TALK 00:48, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
@DCDuring: For the reasons I gave in my post above (timestamped: 02:15, 1 March 2016). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 01:35, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
That seems somewhat far-fetched and, in any event, the consequences are not horrible. This monument to correctness that we are building does need to have users who find it useful. DCDuring TALK 02:12, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @DCDuring: IMO, the scenario I outlined is not as far-fetched as the circumstance in which someone actually uses these redirects.
What form will these redirects take? Hard redirects? Full alternative-form entries? Will they be listed in the Alternative forms section of ἀπο- (apo-)? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:28, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Users found those forms so readily that the prefix was created at those forms of the word. Of course there should be redirects. For that matter, there should be redirects from our standard romanized form of the Greek letters, but that's an entirely separate kettle of fish. — LlywelynII 20:53, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
@LlywelynII: With all due respect, your "proof" isn't very convincing, since it was you who created the entry for that prefix two years and seven months ago. "Of course there should be redirects." is pure assertion, devoid of any argumentation. Your desire to have Romanisation entries for Greek terms is far more justifiable from the point of view of accessibility than is your desire to have these redirects, given that a user unfamiliar with Greek is really quite likely to come across Romanised Greek terms (especially if they're mentioned in the running text of some other, Latin-script language). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 22:02, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
@Μετάknowledge: Thank you. Where do you stand on the issue of whether or not to have redirects from the two forms with the oxia? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 23:36, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
From my experience with Special:WantedCategories, I would say that the most likely scenario is that people will create what they want to create regardless of link color. What's more, if the form they're using is a redlink, they're just as likely to assume there's no prefix entry, and create one. That will mean not just a bluelink and multiple categories, but multiple lemmas, as well. The deletion message for this form may deter them, but there would be no such message on the form with the initial accent. Usually, we avoid redirects for most entries for the reason that they would discourage page creation in cases where some other language has a term with the same spelling. In this case, we want to discourage page creation, so redirects are a good idea. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:14, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
I concur with Chuck. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:00, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Chuck Entz, Metaknowledge: Very well; the consensus seems to be in favour of redirects (by which I assume hard redirects is meant). What's the best way to handle cases of incorrect categorisation brought about by users calling ἀπό- (apó-) and/or ἄπο- (ápo-) as etyma? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:23, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

in lieu[edit]

I didn't find any use at COCA of this except in in lieu of (1,045) and (Canada, legal) pay in lieu (2). There was one use of in lieu thereof. The other seven instances included the name of a band, an incomplete spoken utterance, and similar.

I suspect that the translations belong at in lieu of or perhaps at fr.wikt. DCDuring TALK 04:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Move to in lieu of per nom. - -sche (discuss) 05:13, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
There are hits at Google Books for in lieu appointment]. Note that not all of them actually contain the phrase: some have "... in lieu. Appointment...". The same is true of in lieu payment], though it seems to be more common with a hyphen. It may not be that common, but in lieu does seem to be used as a legal/accounting term without any form of "of". Chuck Entz (talk) 06:33, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
I see. That would merit a reworking of the entry for in lieu, which looks to be limited to legal contexts. It seems that in lieu is often an abbreviation of in lieu of (something obvious from the context). In its prepositive attributive use "substitute" seems like a synonym or definition. DCDuring TALK 15:54, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
There's also a day off in lieu [3] although I've no idea whether this would be better treated by a separate entry or an additional sense ("substitute") at in lieu. --Droigheann (talk) 14:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
To me it seems that the uses that are not in lieu of are derived from use of in lieu of in a legal context including labor law. They all seems to have become completely conventionalized in meaning – therefore dictionary-worthy – though sometimes the meaning might turn out to be restricted to a specific context. I think this might work presented as a non-gloss definition with each of the most typical applications illustrated with a usage example and possible with a subsense. DCDuring TALK 17:12, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

March 2016[edit]

Linear A[edit]

Strangely enough we have a language code for Linear A [lab], even though Linear A is a writing system and not a language. I have no idea why it was encoded or why we have it. -- Liliana 15:01, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

It's very odd. The script code for Linear A is "Lina"; the language code for Minoan is "omn"; but there's also a language code "lab" for a language called "Linear A". I have no idea what ISO and SIL were thinking, but I'm in favor of deleting "lab" from our modules. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:43, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I'll bet their thinking is that the language written in the script may be an unknown language, which would be consistent with w:Linear A. There do seem to be a large number of hypotheses about Linear A, nearly on the same order as the total number of recorded instances of the script. DCDuring TALK 18:33, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I see. Reading Minoan language more carefully, I see that it's written in both Cretan hieroglyphs and Linear A, but since neither writing system has been deciphered, it isn't known whether it's the same language in two writing systems or two different languages. So maybe "omn" means Minoan in Cretan hieroglyphs and "lab" means Minoan in Linear A, and they may or may not refer to the same language. Given that the language is unknown and undeciphered, I wonder why we have one Minoan lemma: kuro. How do we know this word was pronounced "kuro" and that it means "total"? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:25, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
It's in the wrong script anyway (it was added before Unicode covered Linear A), but afaik Linear A can be read simply by using the known values for Linear B syllables, which are visually similar. This word is always found at the end of lists, followed by a number, so the meaning was easy to figure out. -- Liliana 10:39, 6 March 2016 (UTC)


New Latin suffix, non-gloss defined as "used to form taxonomic names, often from non-Latin stems". Request for move to its own Translingual section. It forms taxonomic names, which are Translingual, and, as the definition states, sometimes forms them on non-Latin bases. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 19:54, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Move to -ianus#Translingual. "Translingual" sometimes follows its own rules. DCDuring TALK 20:25, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
Yes, this should probably be moved per nom. IMO there should be both an -iana#Translingual and an -ianus#Translingual (at which point any redundant, taxonomy-only stuff could be removed from the Latin sections), but whether -iana#Translingual should be treated as a mere inflection of -ianus#Translingual I don't know. If -iana forms new words from scratch from non-Latin roots, that suggests it should perhaps be its own "full" entry with a definition like the one it has now, merely linked to -ianus rather than defined as an inflection of -ianus, but I'm not sure. @JohnC5, Metaknowledge, you speak Latin, what do you think? - -sche (discuss) 17:47, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
This needs to be deleted, not moved: I don't see how the New Latin sense is different from the Classical Latin ones. The mere fact that it's applied to non-Latin names isn't enough to separate it: the taxonomic codes make it clear that non-Latin words are treated as Latin for the purpose of constructing taxonomic names. Really, "used to form taxonomic names" doesn't define the term at all- it could be applied to a great number of endings such as -cola, -ensis, -fera, -oides, etc., not to mention the genitive case. In all of the taxonomic uses I can think of, the meanings of the compounds are easily inferred using the Classical Latin definitions. The suffix -anus is used as well for the same thing, so this isn't distinct in that way either.
Also, any specific epithet ending in -iana will become one ending in -ianus when transferred to a genus whose name is masculine, so I don't see any reason for this being a lemma. It does seem to be customary to use feminine gender when constructing new taxonomic names that are nouns, but that isn't a lexical property of any morpheme used when doing so. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:12, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
I don't really care how this is resolved, but I'd like it to be resolved before I create entries for "Latin" terms like arminjonianus, defilippianus, gindianus, derbianus, boycianus, smithsonianus, geelvinkianus, and wyvillianus. DCDuring TALK 19:50, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
@DCDuring, -sche, Chuck Entz: I've deleted it. @DCDuring: What have all those -ianus adjectives got to do with the suffix -iāna? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:41, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
@I'm so meta even this acronym: I was taking advantage of the audience to determine whether there was some agreement that the kind of terms I would be adding would be accepted as Latin. DCDuring TALK 17:24, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Presumably they are roughly or exactly equally worthy or unworthy of a Translingual section or separate definition and should be treated the same. - -sche (discuss) 23:15, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
@DCDuring: Are they attested in any form beside the nominative singulars for the three genders (viz. -us, -a, -um)? Are they attested in any form in Latin running text? If the answer to those two questions is "no" and if it is the case that these "adjectives" only occur as epithets in binominals and the like, then they should only be given entries as Translingual terms, IMO. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 17:55, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

April 2016[edit]

User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js to something better[edit]

This hasn't been Conrad's personal project for many years, so we should give it a name that reflects its full status on Wiktionary. I don't know what name should be used, or if there is a naming scheme for these kinds of things. I know very little of our JS infrastructure overall. But I do think this should be renamed. —CodeCat 16:07, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

First off, editor.js actually contains two different chunks of code: translation-related stuff and the actual Editor class. I think we should
  1. make an opt-in gadget out of the former replacing this and
  2. move Editor in a separate file and let it be imported always because other scripts may depend on them (I know my scripts do).
Both should be in the MediaWiki namespace of course. --Dixtosa (talk) 17:27, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
We should definitely move the codes from editor.js and User:Conrad.Irwin/creation.js and User:Conrad.Irwin/iwiki.js to their corresponding gadget pages as soon as possible because scripts that are in users' namespace load unminimized. I have tested this and minimizing editor.js alone saves us 40kb (~half of it). If my instructions above are not clear let me know. -Dixtosa (talk) 19:40, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
Yes, please move to mainspace. It should also be renamed but I don't know what to call it. Equinox 19:44, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
Moved to MediaWiki:Gadget-TranslationAdder.js. Feel free to separate the non-translation stuff mentioned above into a separate gadget. - -sche (discuss) 06:44, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Renaming aig[edit]

We currently call this "Antigua and Barbuda Creole English" — names containing and are suspect, in my opinion. Wikipedia calls it "Leeward Caribbean Creole English". The most common name in literature seems to be "Antiguan Creole", which is what I suggest renaming it. - -sche (discuss) 03:22, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

The country is called Antigua and Barbuda, so I don't see anything suspicious about the name per se. Nevertheless, I prefer Wikipedia's name, since it's also spoken in Montserrat, Saint Kitts and Nevis, and Anguilla. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:53, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
I concur with Angr, although I have hesitations about changing it. The use of "Antiguan Creole" seems to be mainly by scholars who are just studying the lect spoken on that island and not worrying about what is and isn't considered the same language. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:12, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
Meh, left as-is. - -sche (discuss) 06:45, 27 March 2017 (UTC)


"Adverb" Passing by, especially without stopping or being delayed.

  1. Ignore them, we'll play past them.
    Please don't drive past the fruit stand, I want to stop there.

This seems to me to be a preposition sense, possibly identical to one already under that L2. DCDuring TALK 11:02, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

@DCDuring, I agree. It should be moved to the Preposition header. — Eru·tuon 15:29, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Frankfurt-an-der-Oder and Frankfurt an der Oder[edit]

Frankfurt-an-der-Oder was marked for deletion by an IP because the entry itself doesn't use the hyphens, and there's already an entry at the un-hyphenated spelling. In this case, though, they both have long histories, and the hyphenated spelling has more content. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:50, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

The hyphenated version shouldn't be deleted, but it should be marked as an alternative spelling of the unhyphenated version. The hyphenated version is occasionally used in English, e.g. [4]. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 05:35, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

June 2016[edit]

Category:Finnish passive verbs[edit]

Nonsensical: these are not verbs "usually used in the passive" (I would suppose they are used in the passive more rarely — verb forms like kaaduttiin 'there was falling down' aren't needed too often) but rather a collection of intransitive verbs with some kind of reflexive or middle semantics. Probably should be merged with Category:Finnish intransitive verbs. --Tropylium (talk) 03:14, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Categories for requests and needs[edit]

"entries needing reference" categorization[edit]

This is a little strange, because all of these are redlinks at the moment, but templates have been modified to generate cats using this naming scheme, and I would like them all to go away. While it might seem nice to unify things, having diverse templates using the same cats means you have to generalize away all the useful information and you end up with mumbling and hand-waving.

I'm sorry, but "English entries needing reference" makes no literal sense, and it's impossible to tell from the cat name what's supposed to go in it- you might as well call it "English entries needing something or other". Please change it to something that makes sense before we create a lot of really lame categories that will have to be deleted. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:17, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Entries are placed in those categories by {{rfv-etymology}} and {{rfv-pronunciation}}. Both templates specifically ask for a source, so the name seemed appropriate. Before I changed them, these templates just categorised in the generic "needing etymology" and "needing pronunciation" categories, which was not really any more helpful. —CodeCat 10:56, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
But your solution just substituted one problem for another, by eliminating any reference to etymologies or pronunciation: providing references for an etymology is quite different from providing references for a pronunciation. Also, treating reference as uncountable makes the category names look like typos- does anyone use reference that way? Can one ask, "how much reference do you need?"
A few possible alternatives (the equivalents for pronunciation are left as an exercise for the reader...):
  1. [] etymologies needing to be referenced
  2. [] etymologies needing references
  3. [] etymologies needing referencing
  4. [] etymologies needing to be sourced
  5. [] entries with etymologies needing to be referenced
  6. [] entries with etymologies needing references
  7. [] entries with etymologies needing referencing
  8. [] entries with etymologies needing to be sourced
  9. [] entries with unreferenced etymologies
Chuck Entz (talk) 01:02, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I would prefer "entries needing etymology reference" or "entries needing etymology source". The name doesn't treat it as uncountable; it just leaves out the article as a shorthand. A plural doesn't seem appropriate as it would imply that more than one reference is needed. —CodeCat 10:43, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Chuck about the missing article. It seems non-native or needlessly telegraphic to drop it. What do we hope to accomplish by dropping it as no human keystrokes are involved? Are we suddenly concerned with server resources, download times? As to the implications of the plural, there is no more implication than there would be using the singular. DCDuring TALK 13:47, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I wholeheartedly agree with Chuck. We need more specificity of categories not less.
Whether the prefix to these types of requests should be "rfv" is another question that should be addressed while we have fewer than a hundred of these. Are we fairly sure this prefix will turn out to be adequate? DCDuring TALK 01:36, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
The template names go back 7 or 8 years, and I seem to remember discussions as to whether it was a good idea to link etymologies, which take citations in the Wikipedia sense, with rfvs, which take citations in the Wiktionary sense. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:50, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
The only alternative I know of that has some installed base is {{fact}} (45 transclusions here, and lots of pedians who have the habit), which would need to be followed by "pron" or "ety" (or "usage" etc?), but that might quickly get us part ways back to where we are now with a template likely to be overused and with an undifferentiated category. I suppose that if we made {{fact}} generate a screen that required the users to say what type of problem concerned them or could detect the previous heading in an AF-type bot run, we could make that work. Some new prefix, like "ref", could work. DCDuring TALK 02:38, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I would add that the subject nouns are plural, so one could just as easily say that using a singular object would imply that one reference or source would do for all the entries in the categories- but that would be silly, too. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:14, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I've created the "needing reference" categories as they were originally named. This does not mean I'm enforcing that particular state of affairs (in case someone gets the wrong idea - you know who you are), it's only so that they aren't left in a redlinked state for ages, filling up Special:WantedCategories. They will presumably be deleted again once there's an agreement on what to name them. I do want to note, though, that as far as omitting the article goes, we already have "entries needing inflection", "entries needing definition", "entries needing etymology", "entries needing pronunciation", "entries needing audio pronunciation", "entries needing quotation" and "terms needing transliteration". I think that whatever name is chosen should fit with the existing names, or else all these should also be renamed to maintain consistency in the naming. —CodeCat 20:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Translation requests (X) to X translation requests[edit]

formerly Category:Translation requests (X) to Category:X translation requests / Category:Translations to be checked (X) to Category:X translations to be checked

Unintuitive names that don't match the rest of the category structure or other maintenance categories, hence require totally different code to parse and can't use {{auto cat}}. DTLHS (talk) 02:16, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Support. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:22, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
Support. I hope it makes a difference to new contributors. DCDuring TALK 02:49, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
Support --Daniel Carrero (talk) 12:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Other categories[edit]

@DTLHS, Metaknowledge, DCDuring:

Suggestion: Make all the request categories in all languages use the same naming system, per the same reasons given for the categories above. {{attention|en}}

--Daniel Carrero (talk) 12:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Is it me, or does "attention requests" sound a bit odd? Might there be a better noun to use for that one? Equinox 20:08, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
Category:English review requests? --Daniel Carrero (talk) 20:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
@DTLHS, Metaknowledge, DCDuring, Daniel Carrero, Equinox: Might not Category:English requests for … be better nomenclature? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 13:28, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
That's probably the best suggestion! —CodeCat 13:51, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Maybe that's a good idea. I believe this would be the full list, please check if it's ok:
--Daniel Carrero (talk) 14:07, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
I think "Requests for etymologies" ought to be singular "etymology", same for "pronunciation", "transliteration", maybe also "translation". —CodeCat 14:36, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
For the record, the full names of these 4 categories would be:
And do you think these other 4 categories don't look as good in the singular and should be plural:
--Daniel Carrero (talk) 14:50, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
I support getting rid of "needing" and going to "English requests for"; I also support the singular, and thus, "etymology" instead of "etymologies", "image" instead of "images" and the like. Since so many categories are involved, this should be done via a vote, IMHO. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:54, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Maybe this discussion could serve the purpose of reviewing what exactly are the category names we want (as we are discussing right now), for a vote to be created later.
For the record, I believe it's been 5 years since we had votes for changing the names of many categories at once. Some of the passing votes were: Wiktionary:Votes/2011-04/Derivations categories, Wiktionary:Votes/2011-04/Lexical categories and Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-05/Add en: to English topical categories, part 2. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 15:02, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
These are good votes, providing relatively strong evidence of consensus. The current "needing" category names are a result of the use of this very RFM process without strong evidence of consensus, as far as I remember. The good thing about this RFM is that it was announced via Beer parlour, but still, the vote pages create the strongest evidence of consensus in part since there are never too many votes running concurrently, which is not true of RFM. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:17, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
I support getting rid of "needing". (though I'm still thinking whether the singular or plural looks better IMO) As discussed in the 2015 vote "Language-specific rfi categories", @Dan Polansky said, and I quote: "The category tracks where an image was requested, not where it is needed."
For the record, the RFM discussion that introduced "needing" is: Category talk:English entries needing definition#RFM discussion: August–September 2014. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 02:02, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Suggested names for the parent categories:

Cross-language umbrella categories:

--Daniel Carrero (talk) 10:25, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

+a few categories:

--Daniel Carrero (talk) 13:20, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I created: Wiktionary:Votes/2016-07/Request categories. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 01:49, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

July 2016[edit]

More languages without ISO codes, part 5[edit]

{—Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:17, 3 July 2016 (UTC))

I've split the discussion so that ones that are done can be archived. - -sche (discuss) 19:28, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Taishanese and Teochew[edit]

@-sche I think Taishanese dialect of Cantonese and Teochew dialect of Min Nan both need language codes. They are covered by Chinese pronunciation modules but theire transliterations is very different from Cantonese and Min Nan accordingly. E.g. in 鉛筆铅笔 (qiānbǐ) "yon3 bit2" is not standard Jyutping and "ing5 big4" is Teochew Peng'im, not POJ. @Kc kennylau, Wyang, Suzukaze-c, Justinrleung. Perhaps these subdialects needs nesting in translations and numbered tone marks (also Gan, Jin, Xiang) also need superscripts, just like Cantonese Jyutping. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:32, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
typo fix→@Kc kennylau, Wyang, Suzukaze-c, Justinrleungsuzukaze (tc) 12:05, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, suzukaze! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:08, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
They seem to have language codes already (yue-tai for Taishanese and nan-teo for Teochew); at least they work in the etymology templates. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:58, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
@Justinrleung Thanks but if I try add a translation using 'yue-tai' I get the error:
Lua error in Module:languages/templates at line 28: The language code 'yue-tai' is not valid.: Lua error in Module:parameters at line 110: The parameter "<strong class" is not used by this template. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:15, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Yes, those are etymology-only codes. They would standardly need different codes if we are to treat them as full languages, though. The point is that you guys need to decide what status you want these lects to have. @Atitarev, Justinrleung, suzukaze-c, WyangΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:24, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
If there's a need to enter them into translations tables (on account of their different transliteration and, according to Wikipedia, sometimes different vocabulary), they could be given full codes, which as Meta notes would be named a little differently (using the system described in WT:LANG): zhx-tai and zhx-teo. I await Wyang's input. As an aside, we should consider taking a Chinese approach to Arabic, i.e. not have separate headers for each dialect, but retain the option of listing each dialect's pronunciation and maybe having each dialect in translations tables. - -sche (discuss) 16:36, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

@Kc kennylau, Wyang, Suzukaze-c, Justinrleung, -sche, Metaknowledge Thanks all. Will further nesting open a Pandora's box of nesting subdialects if we do it like this? (pls note new rows for Taishanese and Teochew):

* Chinese:
*: Cantonese: {{t|yue|鉛筆|sc=Hani}}, {{t|yue|铅笔|tr=jyun4 bat1|sc=Hani}}
*:: Taishanese: {{t|zhx-tai|鉛筆|sc=Hani}}, {{t|zhx-tai|铅笔|tr=yon3 bit2|sc=Hani}}
*: Gan: {{t|gan|鉛筆}}, {{t|gan|铅笔|tr=nyyon4 'bit6}}
*: Hakka: {{t|hak|鉛筆}}, {{t|hak|铅笔|tr=yèn-pit}}
*: Jin: {{t|cjy|鉛筆}}, {{t|cjy|铅笔|tr=qie1 bieh4}}
*: Mandarin: {{t+|cmn|鉛筆|sc=Hani}}, {{t+|cmn|铅笔|tr=qiānbǐ|sc=Hani}}
*: Min Dong: {{t|cdo|鉛筆}}, {{t|cdo|铅笔|tr=iòng-bék}}
*: Min Nan: {{t+|nan|鉛筆}}, {{t|nan|铅笔|tr=iân-pit}}
*:: Teochew: {{t|zhx-teo|鉛筆|sc=Hani}}, {{t|zhx-teo|铅笔|tr=ing5 big4|sc=Hani}}
*: Wu: {{t|wuu|鉛筆}}, {{t|wuu|铅笔|tr=khe piq}}
*: Xiang: {{t|hsn|鉛筆}}, {{t|hsn|铅笔|tr=yan2 bi6}}

There's some work for translation adder as well. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:27, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

In this case I would really prefer:

* Chinese: {{zh-l|鉛筆}}

where {{zh-l}} extracts and displays the simplified form from the entry, as well as extracts all the readings of the word from the entry, and (if on a computer) displays the readings on hover-over or (if on a mobile device) something. Additional topolect-specific translations can be added as:

* Chinese: {{zh-l|鉛筆}}
*: Cantonese: {{zh-l|鉛鉛筆}}
*: Mandarin: {{zh-l|筆鉛鉛}}

Wyang (talk) 21:34, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

We'd need a full-blown {{zh-t}} that can serve the function of linking to zh.wikt if an entry exists, and you'd also need to run a bot to update those every now and then (or convince Ruakh to do it). This would imply some changes to the translation adder as well, and possibly other gadgets and bits of code lying around. In short, that's a big jump from what Anatoli proposed. It does sound like a good idea, though, if you want to put the requisite work into it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:10, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Balkan Gagauz Turkish[edit]

I see no evidence that this exists as a separate language, and move that it be merged with tr. The literature which references it seems to describe the dialect of Turkish which may be spoken by Gagauz people in the Balkan Peninsula. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:17, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia, citing Ethnologue, insists that Balkan Gagauz Turkish, Gagauz, and Turkish are all separate, and a few sources do seem to take that view, e.g. Cem Keskin, Subject agreement-dependency of accusative case in Turkish, or, Jump-starting grammatical machinery (2009) speaks of "Balkan Gagauz Turkish, Gagauz, Turkish, Iraqi Turkmen, North and South Azerbaijani, Salchuq, Aynallu, Qashqay, Khorasan Turkic, Turkmen, Oghuz Uzbek, Afshar, and possibly Crimean Tatar". Other references speak of Balkan Gagauz Turkish as a variety of Gagauz, e.g. James Minahan's Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations says "The Gagauz speak a Turkic language [...] also called Balkan Gagauz or Balkan Turkic, [which] is spoken in two major dialects, Central and Southern, with the former the basis of the literary language. Other dialects [include] Maritime Gagauz" (which comports with w:Gagauz's list of its dialects). Matthias Brenzinger's Language Diversity Endangered also treats Balkan Gagauz "or slightly misleading, Balkan Turkic" in his entry on Gagauz, but says it that the Balkan "varieties might deserve the status of outlying languages but very little information is available about them." (A few generalist references seem to subsume all gag into tr.) I would leave them all separate, pending more conclusive evidence that they should be merged. - -sche (discuss) 23:58, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
I think there's some confusion about what exactly we're talking about, and whether it's Gagauz or Turkish. Just because they use the term "Balkan Gagauz Turkish" doesn't mean that they're referring to the language with ISO 639-3 code bgx. When I look at who's citing the references listed for bgx at Glottolog, Manević (the reference for its classification) is cited in papers clearly talking about the dialects of tr. These are the only actual words attributed to this lect that I can find. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:33, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Even more languages without ISO codes, part 3[edit]

This next batch is of languages from lists other than Ethnologue and LinguistList. As before, I've tried to vet them all beforehand, but I will have doubtlessly made some mistakes. NB if you want to find more: I've avoided dealing with most of the Loloish languages, because all the literature seems to be in Chinese. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:54, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Australian languages[edit]

Here are other languages we might need codes for: - -sche (discuss) 05:21, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

  • Indanga (Kɔlɔmɔnyi, Kɔlɛ, Kasaï Oriental) (bnt-ind?)
    It lacks a Wikipedia article but is documented by Jacobs, Texte et lexique indanga (2002). fr.Wikt already has a word from it. OTOH, fr.WP considers it a regional variant of Tetela. And fr.Wikt does have a tendency to treat dialects as language, also splitting e.g. Alsatian German from Alemannic German, Hoanya from Papora, etc. - -sche (discuss) 05:21, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
    Well, it's definitely part of the dialect continuum known in Guthrie as C.70, which has 8 ISO codes that cover it rather poorly (this is a typical situation with Bantu languages, which really need their own overhaul at some point). I see that its word for "water" is bash in that reference, rather different than Tetela proper ashi. We have to draw lines somewhere, and I can't figure out where Indanga would be merged, so I suppose a new code is in order. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:30, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Laze language
  • Ma(') Pnaan (poz-map?), also known by the exonyms Punan Malinau and Punan Segah, a language of Borneo / East Kalimantan, summarized by Antonia Soriente here and elsewhere. Compare the other things listed at Punan language.
  • Hitchiti (nai-hit). 'Water' is 'oki' or 'oke' (Thomas Noxon Toomey, Analysis of a Text in the Apalachi Language, 1917, in notes).
    - -sche (discuss) 04:34, 31 August 2016 (UTC)



This Pama-Nyungan lect seems to have been given an exceptional code with no discussion, for its use at one transwikied entry, ngargee. It's by no means clear that we should be giving it a separate code rather than treating it as a dialect of Woiwurrung wyi; Wikipedia claims they are 90% mutually intelligible, but doesn't cite that claim directly. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:54, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I noticed this a while ago, but left it alone because I could not at the time find a reference (i.e. outside WP) that confirmed that they were mutually intelligible, probably because the huge variety of spellings made searching for information difficult. However, I can now find references that suggest we should be merging more than just these two. Leigh Boucher and ‎Lynette Russell's Settler Colonial Governance in Nineteenth-Century Victoria (2015, ISBN 1925022358), page 8, speaks of "the Woiwurrung (Wurundjeri), Boonwurrung, Wathaurung, Taungurong and Dja Dja Wurrung [being] mutually intelligible languages that share up to 80 per cent of their terminology." A paper by Barry Blake and Julie Reid on Sound Change in Kulin, in the La Trobe Working Papers in Linguistics, v 6-8 (1993), speaks of a single Kulin language, with "material available on three dialects: Boonwurrung (B), Woiwurrung (W) and Thagungwurrung (T)" (emphasis mine). Dja Dja Wurrung = dja, and Taungurong / Thagungwurrung = dgw, and Wathaurung = wth, all of which we currently treat as separate. Kulin suggests that at least the four eastern ones, if not also Wathaurung, could be merged. - -sche (discuss) 06:48, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
I've merged Bunurong; the others still need to be merged. - -sche (discuss) 16:52, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Gail/Gayle (gic)[edit]

The Gayle language is a gay argot lexicon that can be used in English or Afrikaans. Words should be under whatever language they are found in, as argots are not independent languages, and this code should be removed. We have precedent for excluding gay argots based on our deletion of the code for Polari (discussion, most of which is off-topic). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:09, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Dungan is technically Mandarin, or a dialect of Mandarin[edit]

Hi, I'm not sure whether this is the right venue for this discussion, but I would like to bring up Dungan, which is spoken in Central Asia. According to Wikipedia, Ethnologue, and Glottolog, this is a Chinese language, specifically Mandarin. There are only 20 entries in Wiktionary that are for Dungan, and all of them are Mandarin words, with some from the Gansu and Shaanxi dialects. The difference, however, is that, Dungan is written in Cyrillic. In Wiktionary, all Chinese dialects are merged into one single Chinese entry, and pronunciations are listed. Shouldn't we do that, or at least partially, for Dungan? Please feel free to comment. Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:54, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Re venue: this is indeed a venue where discussions of merging/splitting language codes and categories and entries take place. I tend to put my "biggest" proposals (ones that needed votes in the past, or that concern major or controversial languages that I suspect will need votes) in the WT:BP, but here is OK.
Wiktionary:About Chinese#The_Chinese_lects and Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2014-04/Unified_Chinese intentionally left lects that don't use Hanzi separate from Unified Chinese, but I don't know if that was because Chinese editors felt they should never be merged, or just felt that merging them would be difficult and best attempted after everything else had been merged. It would obviously be possible to merge Dungan and other such lects if Chinese editors wanted to; we have plenty of other languages which use multiple scripts (e.g. Afrikaans). However, the various Chinese lects which are distinctive to the point of potentially being not-mutually-intelligible when spoken were able to be unified here because they share a written form in which they are theoretically mutually intelligible. If Dungan is potentially not intelligible with lects from other areas (lects that differ from Mandarin enough that speakers don't understand it without study) in either speech or writing, then what would be the basis for unifying them? - -sche (discuss) 15:42, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
Actually, Shaanxi and Gansu Mandarin is mutually intelligible with Dungan. Furthermore, a large majority of Dungan vocabulary is from Chinese, which therefore, has Chinese equivalent entries written in Chinese characters. There are Russian and Turkic vocabulary. My suggestion is to leave Dungan loanwords from Russian and Turkic as written in Cyrillic, and merge the Dungan Chinese words with Chinese entries, and perhaps leaving the Cyrillic entry of those words like how Chinese pinyin and Japanese romaji are left. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:53, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
Also, I speak Mandarin, and I tried listening to Dungan videos in Youtube. They're actually understandable for the most part. As in I can write down what they're saying in Chinese, except for some words though (presumably Russian and Turkic loanwords). --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 16:04, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I am not opposed to this, but it would require that Dungan orthography be incorporated into the relevant Chinese templates, so @Wyang's aid and support will be critical. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:21, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I support this. Cyrillic Dungan forms can be added to {{zh-pron}}, under Mandarin. Wyang (talk) 00:25, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
    • The main caveats are that Cyrillic is apparently the standard script for Dungan, unlike with Pinyin or Romaji, and there may be some vocabulary that only exists in Cyrillic. I suppose the writing systems for Hokkien might be analogous, though. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:07, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
  • This doesn't feel right to me. I think it would be like folding Maltese into Arabic, or merging Hindi and Urdu. I foresee a lot of complaints from anons if entries like дянхуа and شِيَوْ عَر دٍ have a ==Chinese== heading, and I would find it disconcerting myself, too. And what would the definition then say? {{lb|zh|Dungan}} {{form of|Cyrillic script|電話|lang=zh}}? I think readers would find that more confusing than helpful. And then what about the Russian and Turkic loanwords that don't exist in China? They would have to have full definitions without a link to a Hanzi entry, and that would probably baffle readers even more, despite the {{lb|zh|Dungan}} tag. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:14, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
    Hindi and Urdu should be merged — they are separate for political reasons. Remember, we allow for Afrikaans entries in Arabic script, Old French entries in Hebrew script, and other odd happenstances of historical script usage. We can continue to use the Dungan header for words only existing in Cyrillic form, just like I believe we do for Min Nan. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:10, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
Undecided for now. There are pros and cons. Cyrillic and Arabic spellings could potentially be added to each Mandarin standard pinyin syllable (non-standard could also be considered if confirmed). Multisyllabic only for confirmed ones.
Mandarin pinyin (with tone marks and monosyllabic tone numbered syllables), Min Nan POJ, zhuyin characters have not been "unified" under the Chinese umbrella for various reasons. Some are described above.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:39, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
I think it would be more convenient for editors if Dungan were part of unified Chinese, since it would be easier to edit. It would just feel like too repetitive if I made a new Dungan entry that technically already has an equivalent Chinese entry. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:32, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Should I bring this somewhere else to a vote whether Dungan should be merged into the unified Chinese? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 16:08, 22 July 2016 (UTC)


Maridan [zmd], Maridjabin [zmj], Marimanindji [zmm], Maringarr [zmt], Marithiel [mfr], Mariyedi [zmy], Marti Ke [zmg]: should these be merged? References speak of a singular Marrithiyel language. - -sche (discuss) 21:30, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

make eyes at[edit]

Should be moved to make eyes, as it does occur without the at:

Keith the Koala (talk) 19:37, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Move per nom. DCDuring TALK 19:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
A move sounds good. Keeping "make eyes at" as a redirect is probably wise. Equinox 20:41, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
OK, move. I wonder if make mouths at should be moved. Keep "make eyes at" as a redirect, as Equinox says. - -sche (discuss) 20:08, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

August 2016[edit]

Template:ux to Template:usex[edit]

Now that the older {{usex}} has been orphaned for a while, I think its name should again be the primary name for this template. It's much clearer than {{ux}}. {{ux}} would remain as a redirect of course. —CodeCat 15:42, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:21, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Support. --WikiTiki89 20:39, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Me too. DCDuring TALK 21:52, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
OK with me. Benwing2 (talk) 00:30, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
With me, that's now six in favour and none against. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:20, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose. A vote decided that ux should be the name used in the wiki markup, not usex. Usex is not particularly clear either; use-example would be. The template has a documentation that should help clarity; the name itself as used in the wiki text was decided to be short. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:46, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    Furthermore, the old code of template usex should be kept to make revision histories legible. The practice of the recklessness toward legibility of revision histories has to stop. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:55, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    I mean, if all this is about is having a legible primary name, why not rename to {{use-example}}? Why make the page histories that use {{usex}} less legible? --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:01, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    For reference, the vote is Wiktionary:Votes/2015-11/term → m; context → label; usex → ux. Votes are high-profile exercises in collecting evidence for consensus. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:08, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    Nowhere in that vote is there any implication that people prefer the name "ux". In fact, the vote appears set up specifically for three templates which have three equivalent templates differing only in their parameters. Therefore, it's very reasonable to conclude most people voted for the parameter change, not the name. This RFM discussion, which shows a clear consensus in favour of treating the two names equivalently and preferring {{usex}}, is additional evidence for that viewpoint. —CodeCat 17:14, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    The above claim that the vote is not about the name ux is ridiculous. If you want usex to become the dominant name in the wiki text, please set up a vote. The linked vote gives authorization to bots to automatically replace {{usex}} with {{ux}}. This low-profile RFM cannot be used to replace a vote since RFMs are so much more low-profile than votes. Furthermore, I originally understood this RFM to want to proceed on an analogy to {{label}} vs. {{lb}}, where {{lb}} is the predominant markup used in the wiki text even though the primary name is {{label}}; and therefore, I do not see the above supports are being for {{usex}} being the primary name to be seen in the actual wikitext. Either way, a high-profile vote cannot be overriden by a low-profile RFM with unclear change proposal. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:20, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    That it's unclear to you is not anyone else's problem. The people who voted understood it well enough to vote in favour of it. —CodeCat 17:23, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    In any case, RFM cannot override a fairly recent high-profile vote.
    On a further note, currently running Wiktionary:Votes/2016-07/borrowing, borrowed, loan, loanword → bor is only about the name and not about the template arguments, yet shows a large majority 9:5 support the short name. I submit to the reader that the recent votes showed support for very short names, including {{m}}. I don't believe editors at large want to see {{mention}} directly in the mainspace. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:27, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    CodeCat, there's no evidence that your reasoning applies to all people who voted at "usex → ux". You are acting like you can read their minds. You may want to create a new vote. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:30, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    Dan Polansky, please check Wiktionary:Votes/2016-07/borrowing, borrowed, loan, loanword → bor again. The vote is about template name and arguments. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:32, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    I created Wiktionary:Votes/2016-08/Making usex the primary name in the wiki markup. I don't know what else to do. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:36, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    I think this was a good idea. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 18:02, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Support move. - -sche (discuss) 16:58, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
@- -sche: How do you address my points and concerns? What is the benefit of {{usex}} over {{use-example}} or {{usage-example}}? --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:02, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
We regularly refer to usage examples as "usexes" (singular: "a usex") in discussions, so that name is clear, whereas "ux" is not. "Usage-example" is too long to use in entries, although we do sometimes use full words for template names, and so making "usage-example" the full name and using "usex" and "ux" as redirects in entries would be OK, but "usex" is also OK and evidently has more support, and fits with other templates and modules that don't use full words (e.g. the "translit" templates and modules which, aside from any other debate they are subject to, are named with the short form "translit" and not "transliteration"). Legibility of revision histories is not a goal of mine; meeting it would be too much of a hindrance to progress, constricting our ability to improve template and module code. - -sche (discuss) 17:17, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Oppose: I'd support redirecting {{ux}} to {{usage example}}, while keeping {{ux}} in all entries.
This idea (using an abbreviation in the entries, the abbreviation being a redirect to a template with a long name) would be in line with {{der}} -> {{derived}}, {{m}} -> {{mention}}, etc.
By the way, before someone suggests editing all entries by bot to make them use {{usex}}, this 1-week, half-dozen people RFM discussion should not overrule a 1-month, 19-people vote (by "19 people", I mean only in the "usex → ux" part).
I'd rather use {{eg}} (a new, unvoted redirect) when creating new examples, but I wouldn't change all entries to accomodate that, except by creating a new vote. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:16, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Since there's still a large majority in favour of the move, I will make it yet again. —CodeCat 18:25, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

@-sche, Angr, Wikitiki89, DCDuring, Benwing2, I'm so meta even this acronym I've tried repeatedly to make this change, but it keeps getting reverted by Dan. We have over 2/3 in support in this RFM, so is Dan going against consensus? —CodeCat 23:09, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

As I said, low-profile RFM should not override a vote that we already had in which ux seemingly, but not according to CodeCat, was chosen. Wiktionary:Votes/2016-08/Making usex the primary name in the wiki markup is going to clarify the thing I believe. --Dan Polansky (talk) 23:11, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
And you, a single person, decide that? Against 7 that disagree? —CodeCat 23:13, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
I don't understand the question. I think it is a matter of general principle that low-profile RFM does not override a recent vote. It is the matter of bringing the thing to the proper radar screen, the proposal being phrased in clear terms. That has happened in Wiktionary:Votes/2016-08/Making usex the primary name in the wiki markup, the vote is running, and the vote is going to show consensus in this matter via a proper channel. --Dan Polansky (talk)
A bare majority (3-2) with only six voting is no endorsement, certainly neither consensus nor a high level of participation. I don't see that it was accurately closed, as there was no consensus. Such a bare majority would have been sufficient had the matter been decided where it belonged, but as the wrong venue was chosen, our stricter standard of 2/3 applied.
There are been more participants in this RFM. The matter never merited a policy vote to begin with. The vote was analogous to a special law, often a hallmark of a representation system manipulated by professional parliamentarians in real politics. DCDuring TALK 00:00, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
The vote is still ongoing. Scheduled end date: September 28. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:14, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
OK, there appears to be a lot of confusion here. CodeCat is proposing that the page named {{ux}} be a redirect to {{usex}} but that we keep using {{ux}} in actual markup, as the previous vote agreed to. This is similar to the situation that we have with {{m}} and {{mention}}, and {{l}} and {{link}}, where (e.g.) {{m}} is a redirect to {{mention}} but {{m}} is the form used in most markup. IMO this situation is rather confusing, but it's consistent with what's been done before. On the other hand, Dan's vote (if I'm not mistaken) seems to be proposing that we bot-rename {{ux}} to {{usex}} in all 26,000+ pages using it, which would go against the recently-established vote to rename things the other way. I'm not sure whether this difference was intentional on Dan's part or due to confusion, but it should be rectified some how or other. Benwing2 (talk) 20:29, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
I was one of those confused. I would think we would want to robo-convert all instances of {{ux}} to {{usex}} so that contributors saw {{usex}} in the edit window. I would think this would reduce the need to find the templates documentation and reduce the number of folks who abandoned their attempt to contribute. If {{usex}} is to be the default template after operation of the bot, then it should be the name of a real template, not a redirect to the real template.
The general principle of having slightly longer, somewhat more explanatory names, using standard abbreviations where possible, would apply to all such cases. But it is hard to find a name that explains why and for what we use {{l}} and {{m}}, so we could leave them as is. —This unsigned comment was added by DCDuring (talkcontribs).
This isn't a dispute over the spelling of the template- it's a dispute over the content of {{usex}}. CodeCat wants to replace it with the content of {{ux}}, but Dan wants to keep the old version of {{usex}} for backwards compatibility. Perhaps we could add code so that the new version could detect parameters consistent with the old version and make them work, while putting them in a cleanup category. That way we can keep the old-version edits under control in current entries, but those in edit histories won't be effected.
Such a strategy is easier to do in this case because the two are mutually exclusive and can't be confused: either the language code is the first parameter or it's |lang=, and the translation is either the third parameter or |t=. There are a few entries where {{usex}} was recently added. When CodeCat made her change, they showed up in Cat:E, so I changed the parameters. Then Dan undid the change, and they ended up in Cat:E again. I don't mind changing them back one more time (I prefer the new version), but let's leave it at that. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:15, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
(outdent) As for "CodeCat is proposing that the page named {{ux}} be a redirect to {{usex}} but that we keep using {{ux}} in actual markup", that's what I thought until it seemed that it was CodeCat themselves who claimed otherwise, and then claimed "That it's unclear to you is not anyone else's problem". Frankly, this RFM appears ambiguous and too likely to mislead and confuse the participants, and it should be scrapped because of the lack of clarity of what it really proposes that we do. The vote Wiktionary:Votes/2016-08/Making usex the primary name in the wiki markup does not have that clarity or unambiguity problem. --Dan Polansky (talk) 04:30, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
If CodeCat thought that mainspace was still to carry {{ux}}, and this is only about where the code should be located, why not go for {{usage-example}} since that is not going to be in the wiki code in the mainspace? I can't see how this discussion is anything but confusing. --Dan Polansky (talk) 04:35, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
FYI, Wiktionary:Votes/2016-08/Making usex the primary name in the wiki markup now has 10 participants. --Dan Polansky (talk) 04:40, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Since the vote is over and didn't address the actual matter of this RFM (it addressed only the wiki markup of entries, not the templates themselves), can someone please perform the move? {{usex}} is now a redirect to {{ux}}, but this RFM's consensus calls for {{ux}} to be moved to {{usex}} and become a redirect instead. —CodeCat 18:41, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Some more missing North American languages[edit]

Here are a few more North American languages for which we could add codes:

  • Akokisa (nai-ako). WP says it is attested certainly in two words in Spanish records (Yegsa "Spaniard[s]", which Swanton suggests is similar to Atakapa yik "trade" + ica[k] "people"; and the female name Quiselpoo), and possibly in more words in a wordlist by Jean Béranger in 1721 (if the wordlist is not some other language).
  • Algonquian–Basque pidgin (crp-abp). Wikipedia has a sample. The Atlas of Languages of Intercultural Communication, citing Bakker, says it was spoken from at least 1580 (and perhaps as early as 1530s) through 1635, and "only a few phrases and less than 30 words attributable to Basque were written down" (though apparently more words, attributable to other sources, were also recorded).
  • Guachichil (Cuauchichil, Quauhchichitl, Chichimeca) (nai-gch or, if Guachí is added as sai-gch, perhaps nai-gcl to prevent the two similarly-named lects from being mixed up by only typoing the initial n vs s), apparently sparsely attested.
  • Concho (nai-cnc). The Handbook of North American Indians, volume 10, says "three words of Concho [...] were recorded in 1581 [and] look like they may be [...] Uto-Aztecan".
  • Jumano (Humano, Jumana, Xumana, Chouman, Zumana, Zuma, Suma, and Yuma) (nai-jmn). The Handbook says "It has been established that the Jumano and Suma spoke the same language. Three words have been recorded" of it.

- -sche (discuss) 04:04, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Support all except possibly Akokisa. I think it's a dialect of Atakapa, and that the wordlist is very likely not being linked correctly. That said, it's so few words, that there's no real reason not to accept it as a separate language, just to be conservative about it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:08, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Good point about Akokisa. (I am reminded that you had mentioned its dialectness earlier; sorry I forgot!) The wordlist, labelled only with a tribal name per WP, is possibly plain Atakapa, but Yegsa is supposedly recorded as specifically Akokisa; OTOH that doesn't rule out that Akokisa is a dialect. Indeed, M. Mithun's Languages of Native North America treats as dialects Akokisa, Eastern ("the most divergent, [...] known from a list of 287 entries") and Western ("the best documented. Gatschet recorded around 2000 words and sentences, as well as texts [...] Swanton recorded a few Western forms", all published in 1932 in a dictionary). I suppose the benefit to treating it as a dialect would be that we could context-label Yegsa and Quiselpoo as {{lb|aqp|Akokisa}} and then Béranger's forms as {{lb|aqp|possibly|Akokisa}} without needing to agonize over which header to put them under. - -sche (discuss) 15:31, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Some more missing South American languages, 2[edit]

Here are a few more South American languages for which we could add codes:

  • Coeruna / Koeruna (sai-coe), said to be attested.
  • Conambo language (sai-cnb) is sometimes considered a dialect of the Záparo language, but Loukotka has samples, which show differences: "head" is ku-anak in Zaparo, ku-anaka in Conambo, "eye" is nu-namits (Z) / ku-iyamixa (C), "fire" unamisok (Z) / umani (C), "woman" itumu (Z) / maxi (C). OTOH, telling it apart from what a number of references refer to as the Zaparo spoken in the Conambo river could be non-trivial, so perhaps treating it as a dialect would be easier...
Koihoma language should probably be put off until we can confirm it as a distinct lect; its alt names are all the names of other languages...
  • Peba / Peva (sai-peb), said by Erben to more properly by called Nijamvo, Nixamvo. Spoken in "the department of Loreto" in Peru. Attested in wordlists by Erben and Castelnau, which Loukotka provides, and which disagree with each other substantially: munyo (Erben) / money (Castelnau) "canoe, small boat"; nero (E) / yuna (C) "demon"; nebi (E) / nemey (C) "jaguar"; teki (E) / tomen-lay (C) "one", manaxo (E) / nomoira (C) "two"; etc. I would even consider that one might not be the same language as the other... what's with these languages that survive in disparate wordlists? lol.
possibly Saynáwa: fr.Wikt grants a code to this variety of Yaminawá language, described here (see also [5]).

- -sche (discuss) 21:18, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

September 2016[edit]

terms derived from Star Trek[edit]

Per "category talk:English terms derived from Star Trek," as far as I can tell the following categories are duplicates and should be merged. I have already added all of the terms listed in the categories marked as "derived from" to the shorter-named categories.

  • categories that should be deleted:
    • "category:English terms derived from Star Trek"
    • "category:Esperanto terms derived from Star Trek"
    • "category:terms derived from Star Trek by language"
  • categories to keep (terms have already been added to the categories below from the categories above):
    • "category:en:Star Trek"
    • "category:eo:Star Trek"
    • "category:Star Trek"

Nicole Sharp (talk) 04:32, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

other universes[edit]

  • However, see also "category:English terms derived from fiction". I would suggest that all of these categories be renamed to just "category:[name of fictional universe]" / "category:[language code]:[name of fictional universe]." Then keep the top-level category of "category:English terms derived from fiction" for terms that either do not belong to a specific universe, or are from a fictional universe not notable enough to warrant its own category. Nicole Sharp (talk) 05:01, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
    • E.g.: "category:English terms derived from Harry Potter" to "category:en:Harry Potter". Nicole Sharp (talk) 06:09, 8 September 2016 (UTC)


Not sure if there should be separate entries (doodad) – Jberkel (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Judeo-Arabic lects[edit]

We currently have Judeo-Arabic, but also Judeo-Tunisian Arabic (ajt) and Judeo-Moroccan Arabic (aju). The Arabic lects they draw from are all considered separate L2s, which perhaps supports this arrangement, but I don't know how different they all actually are, and it seems worth having a discussion on this. @Wikitiki89Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:37, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm actually in favor of merging all of Arabic into one language. This would work similarly to how it works with Chinese. But in the past when I brought this up, there seemed to be too much opposition to the idea. As it is stands, the spoken Judeo-Arabic dialects deserve the same treatment as other spoken Arabic dialects. Judeo-Arabic (jrb) itself, however, can be merged with Arabic (ar), because it is essentially the same language as Classical Arabic expect for the fact that it is written in the Hebrew alphabet. But because of the difference in writing system, this merger would not really bring much benefit. --WikiTiki89 23:00, 11 September 2016 (UTC)


As can be seen at w:Nkore-Kiga language, Kiga [cgg] should definitely be merged into Nyankore [nyn]. Unfortunately, this might require a rename to something that is both hyphenated and considerably less common that just plain "Nyankore" (though that is, strictly speaking, merely the name of the main dialect). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:21, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Itneg lects[edit]

See w:Itneg language. All the dialects have different codes, but we really should give them a single code and unify them. I came across this problem with the entry balaua, which means "spirit house" (but I can't tell in which specific dialect). It's also known as Tinggian (with various different spellings), and this may be a better name for it than Itneg. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:09, 23 September 2016 (UTC)



Bad names, they sound like headword-line templates. Should be {{gml-noun-decl}} and {{gml-adj-decl}}. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:18, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Names kept short, again, to save typing. I'd prefer we worry about names when this actually becomes an issue. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 10:15, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Support move, though the names should be like {{gml-decl-noun}} or {{gml-infl-noun}}. —CodeCat 12:20, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
I'd like a reasoning. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 12:42, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
The reasoning is that for most other languages, "xxx-noun" and "xxx-adjective" are headword-line templates. These should be moved to {{gml-decl-noun}} and {{gml-decl-adj}}. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:03, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
I understand the dissimilarity, I do not understand (that's to be taken literally) how from that comes a reason to similarise the names. I cannot see detriment in the dissimilarity, I cannot see benefit in the similarisation. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 19:48, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Because eventually we'll want to create actual headword-line templates for Middle Low German, and the names those templates should have are currently occupied. It's also confusing to editors working on multiple languages. There's no reason to let one language have its own template system not for any linguistic reason but on a whim. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:06, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm not convinced, and I would say the reasons would have to be provided for why all has to be uniform, not why one must diverge. But just so there's no misunderstanding: I recognise the consensus and I won't stand against it just because it's bothering me personally. I'm sure you have arguments why it should be uniform, I can come up with some myself, even if they don't convince me. (Though until anyone but me actually lifts a finger on GML, it's all a bit moot.) Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 20:26, 24 September 2016 (UTC)


This template should be deleted and a parameter should be added to Template:compound to show the language of the word. Also, a parameter to have the phrase “Compound of” before would be nice too (like Template:blend). —britannic124 (talk) 14:51, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Support {{affix}} already has this functionality using langN parameters and it's used on less than 50 entries so convert and delete. —Enosh (talk) 19:42, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Enoshd, would you be able to convert it? I’m not very experienced with editing templates. —britannic124 (talk) 16:42, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

October 2016[edit]

Kela-Yela language[edit]

This language got encoded twice, once as Kela [kel] and once as Yela [yel], based on its two names in two different provinces of DR Congo. Wikipedia opts for "Kela-Yela" as the compromise name, and I can't find a better one, unfortunately. (This also opens up "Kela" for [kcl], which we currently call "Kala", though that name seems to be less commonly used.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:00, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

I've merged yel into kel. - -sche (discuss) 04:20, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Sena language merger[edit]

Sena is mutually intelligible with Chichewa, so it really shouldn't be considered a separate language, but that's probably not worth a merger, as the speakers seem to disagree. What the speakers do seem to agree with is that there is one Sena language, despite it having gotten two ISO codes, seh in Mozambique and swk in Malawi, which we call "Sena" and "Malawi Sena" respectively. We should probably just do away with swk. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:48, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

I've merged swk into seh. No action taken with regard to Chichewa at this time. - -sche (discuss) 04:15, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Merge Category:Chinese hanzi and Category:Chinese Han characters[edit]

What distinguishes these two? —suzukaze (tc) 03:31, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

We have Category:Latin script characters and other subcategories of Category:Characters by script.
To follow suit, maybe we should merge Category:Chinese hanzi and Category:Chinese Han characters into Category:Chinese script characters Category:Han script characters. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 03:35, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Oppose merging both into the already existing Category:Han script characters as it is for all hanzi, while the two being discussed here are for Chinese hanzi only. —suzukaze (tc) 04:00, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Allright. Apparently, these two categories are for single-character entries. We have Category:Japanese terms written with one Han script character, so these could be merged into Category:Chinese terms written with one Han script character, and we could populate Category:Chinese character counts like Category:Japanese character counts. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 04:04, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Oppose this one too since Japanese entries have Category:Japanese Han characters, for any kanji used in the Japanese language (regardless of whether it can be used independently as a word or not), while Category:Japanese terms written with one Han script character is for words that feature only one kanji, such as 好き. —suzukaze (tc) 04:17, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

If there is no meaningful difference between these, I propose keeping Category:Chinese Han characters as it is managed by {{poscatboiler}} and merging Category:Chinese hanzi into it. —suzukaze (tc) 04:17, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Move template:lang[edit]

to something more sensible like "template:text"? lang could be used to display the language name from a language code whenever "there is no other template (like {{derived}} or {{cog}}) that can be used instead". --Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 14:09, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

@Giorgi Eufshi: Or {{textlang}}? That'd make it very clear. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:12, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
It also has 'face' and 'sc' parameters. Maybe {{textlangfacesc}}? --Dixtosa (talk) 15:34, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@Dixtosa: (There's no need to be facetious; I responded, didn't I?) {{text}} is fine. What does the |face= parameter do? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:38, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
I was just making a point. hope no feelings were hurt )) My implicit question was: why do you feel lang suffix is necessary? It's not like this is the only template that can work with languages. --Dixtosa (talk) 16:59, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@Dixtosa: I just figured that it made its use clearer, that it's a template that marks the language of the text it encloses. But I really don't mind what it's called. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:47, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Question: I have used {{lang}} on talk pages. Would a bot convert these instances to whatever template name is chosen as a replacement for {{lang}}? — Eru·tuon 17:00, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Deletion debate[edit]

We could also try orphaning it instead. I believe there are many uses that could be replaced with other templates. Try orphaning it and see how far we get. —CodeCat 14:13, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Oppose: I use this template frequently for the text of quotations, which helps screen readers know what language the text is in; also, it's needed for display purposes sometimes, like wrapping text in {{lang|de|sc=Latf|…}} to display German text in Fraktur. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 21:11, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
We have other templates for quotations, that are more suited to that specific task. —CodeCat 21:16, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
@CodeCat: I don't think I'm aware of them. Could you link to them, please? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 09:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
{{quote}} and various other templates beginning with "quote". —CodeCat 14:13, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
And to mention a word without linking to it, you can put it in the 3rd positional parameter of {{l}} or {{m}}, thus: {{m|de||dass}}. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
@Aɴɢʀ: Thanks; I was already aware of and do already use {{m}} and {{l}} like that.
@CodeCat: I frequently find those templates to be flawed; they can't handle the quotation of works with unusual internal structure (Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, with its hierarchically organised propositions, is a modern example). Unless there is something that can perform the function of {{lang}} without the problems of the quote- templates, I shall have to oppose this orphaning. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:31, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Can you give an example? —CodeCat 14:32, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@CodeCat: Sorry, an example of what? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:34, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
An example of a case where no other existing template works. —CodeCat 14:35, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@CodeCat: I confess to not being very experienced with those templates (the bad experiences I've had have been other editors trying to shoehorn existing, manually-written citations into them). Maybe one or another of those quote- templates could cope with the TLP; I wouldn't know. Could any of them cope with the modern translation of a scholion by one ancient author, commenting on the work of another ancient author, appearing in a volume of translated works of ancient authors (writing on a common theme), with the texts emended by different modern emendators, the volume as a whole edited by a modern editor, and that volume constituting one part of a series which itself has a different modern general editor? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:12, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
That has nothing to do with what either {{quote}} or {{lang}} does. I suggest you familiarize yourself with these templates before commenting further. DTLHS (talk) 15:24, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@DTLHS: My mistake. I thought CodeCat was only referring to {{quote-book}} and the like. I was not aware of the existence of {{quote}}. @CodeCat: My apologies; I misread what you wrote. {{quote}} is great; I'll use that instead of {{lang}} from now on. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:48, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

carry a torch for[edit]

Move to carry a torch, making sure that the definition is appropriate for usage both with and without for. A redirect from [[carry a torch for]] to carry a torch would be fine with me. At present the redirect goes the other way. DCDuring TALK 14:40, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Attestation of use without for is at Citations:carry a torch for. DCDuring TALK 15:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Category:English and other topical categories about languages[edit]

It would be nice to have a name that makes it more obvious that this is a topical category. How about Category:English linguistics, and for the larger languages subcategories like Category:English grammar, Category:English orthography, etc.? I’m open to suggestions, as some people don’t like including things relating to writing or standardised language under linguistics. Another issue is that the hub categories (without language codes) would follow the same format as non-topical categories, but I still think it’s clearer than just English.

And how about parent categories for language families, like Category:Germanic linguistics? — Ungoliant (falai) 20:34, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

November 2016[edit]

Paraguayan Guaraní [gug][edit]

I just noticed that we have this for some reason. Guaraní is a dialect continuum that is quite extensive, both in inter-dialect differences and in geography, and certain varieties have been heavily influenced by Spanish or Portuguese. That said, our Guaraní [gn] content is, as far as I can tell, pretty much entirely on Paraguayan Guaraní, which for some reason has a different code, [gug]. My attention was brought to this by User:Guillermo2149 changing L2 headers (I have not reverted his edits, but they do cause header-code mismatch). We could try splitting up the Guaraní dialects, but it would hard to choose cutoffs and would definitely confuse potential editors, of which we have had more since Duolingo released a Guaraní course. I think the best choice is to merge [gug] into [gn] and mark words extensively for which dialects or countries they are used in. @-scheΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:29, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  • Symbol support vote.svg Support [gn] and [grn] are the codes of the macrolanguage, [gug] is the code for the specific dialect spoken in Paraguay, also, until now, I haven't found any [gn] lemma to be out of [gug]. --Guillermo2149 (talk) 01:52, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support. — Ungoliant (falai) 11:00, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Symbol support vote.svg Support. - -sche (discuss) 14:33, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg SupportAɴɢʀ (talk) 15:02, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
  • @Guillermo2149, Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV, -sche, Angr: I see now that there are three more Guaraní dialect codes that we have: Mbyá Guaraní [gun], Chiripá [nhd], and Western Bolivian Guaraní [gnw]. I presume that we should merge these into [gn] as well, but the case is arguably less clear given that in our current state, all our [gn] lemmas are really [gug]. What do you all think? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:51, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
    I stick by my motto, "When in doubt, merge". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:53, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
    I think we should actually merge [gn] into [gug] and not viceversa. By the way, [gn] is the only one that should be merged, [gun] has similar and some equal words but the language is very different, and [nhd] is similar and very close to [gug] but it's slightly different and always confused with [gug] --Guillermo2149 (talk) 00:37, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Category:Westrobothnian lemmas[edit]

See also: Wiktionary:Information_desk#Category:Westrobothnian_lemmas_-_Our_idiosyncrasy.3F

User:Korn posted this to rfv as a way of requesting verification of all the Westrobothnian entries. The justification was that the orthography doesn't seem to be one that has been actually used for the language. Given that the terms seem, for the most part, to be real and added in good faith, I would like to see if we can figure out a way to move them to the appropriate spellings rather than deleting them as unattested. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:02, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Chuck described the situation correctly as I see it. It's about spelling, not terms. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 20:01, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

caught between the devil and the deep blue sea[edit]

to: between the devil and the deep blue sea, with "caught etc." either deleted or made a redirect.

The prepositional phrase between the devil and the deep blue sea ("PP") appears alone (eg, in titles) and collocates with forms of verbs catch, be, put, find (oneself), leave, choose, stand, sit, lie. Caught up, stuck, and trapped are from verbs that seem to collocate with the PP almost exclusively in the past participle form (or adjective). The PP occurs after certain deverbal nouns, like choice. Alternative prepositions are less common: eg, in between, as.

And, finally, caught between the devil and the deep blue sea at OneLook Dictionary Search shows none of the indexed references there have the term caught + PP, whereas between the devil and the deep blue sea at OneLook Dictionary Search shows that a few unabridged dictionaries, an idiom dictionary, and a nautical dictionary have the PP. DCDuring TALK 15:25, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

@DCDuring: Move to between the devil and the deep blue sea, retaining caught between the devil and the deep blue sea as a hard redirect thereto. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:25, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

December 2016[edit]

Splitting Monguor into Mangghuer and Mongghul[edit]

This was already discussed at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2016/December#Splitting_Monguor, but seeing as it's been a few days I've decided to use the circumstance of this being the preferred place for such requests to bump the topic. Crom daba (talk) 05:19, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

  • Support. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:39, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

@Crom daba, what would happen to words in older literature such as de Smedt / Mostaert 1933 or Todaeva 1973 which are not clearly marked as being either Minhe or Huzhu? Now they can be added under Monguor. Someone can later label them as Mangghuer or Mongghul using {{lb|mjg|}}. After splitting, a lot of useful stuff from older sources will hang in the air. --Vahag (talk) 14:49, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Most sources are identifiable as either Mangghuer or Mongghul, we could specify which resource contains what in the about page. A bigger problem for me is how do we even enter data from the old sources? Do we put in Todaeva's Cyrillic and Mostaert's pre-IPA phonetic symbols or do we transcribe it into Pinyin? I wasn't around long enough to see what the precedent here is. Crom daba (talk) 22:08, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
If you can specify which resource contains what in the about page, then I support the split. Otherwise, I would like to have three codes, like we do with ku (Kurdish macrolanguage), kmr (Northern Kurdish variety), ckb (Central Kurdish variety).
As for entering words from older sources, you can normalize them into Pinyin, as long as the rules of normalization are clearly defined. Look at what I have done with Udi at WT:AUDI. --Vahag (talk) 06:56, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
After some research, it appears that correspondence of Pinyin spellings (as written by Dpal-ldan-bkra-shis et al) and older attestations is non-trivial, so I will put off transcribing anything which isn't already in Pinyin, at least until I see an example of it supporting the full range of dialectal and historical Monguor variation. Crom daba (talk) 00:16, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Category:Japanese rendaku[edit]

This name sounds weird, like something is missing. I think that something like Category:Japanese terms exhibiting rendaku would be better. (or maybe the old Category:Rendaku [see page history]) —suzukaze (tc) 02:42, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

The current name is bad, but the proposed alternative is clunky. Perhaps Category:Japanese terms with rendaku would be better? @Suzukaze-c, Wyang, Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, AtitarevΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:24, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I like it. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 07:28, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
No strong opinion but "with ..." sounds better. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:29, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Agree with the proposed "with ...". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:31, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
I like "Japanese terms with rendaku" (also with italicisation in the displayed page title). Wyang (talk) 07:46, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
I support italicising rendaku per Wyang. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:57, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
I moved the category to Category:Japanese terms with rendaku and updated the templates that categorize its entries. Feel free to italicise rendaku in its title. - -sche (discuss) 03:52, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

be there for[edit]

Move to be there? Spice Girls: "say you'll be there". The accessory for isn't always present; we wouldn't have an entry for be there when (I need you). Equinox 04:13, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Move per nom. DCDuring TALK 12:10, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
Move. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 06:25, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

keep a close watch on[edit]

As with be there for above: you can keep a close watch. The on preposition is accessory. I could also keep a close watch beside the prisoner. Equinox 05:18, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Move per nom. DCDuring TALK 12:11, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
Move. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 06:25, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Moving Finno-Ugric families to Uralic families[edit]

We don't recognize Finno-Ugric as a valid family; just Uralic. Hence urj is a valid code, but fiu isn't. Nevertheless, we're using fiu- as the prefix for four branches: fiu-fin for Finnic, fiu-mdv for Mordvinic, fiu-prm for Permic, and fiu-ugr for Ugric. I propose we use urj- for these instead, thus moving as follows:

  • fiu-finurj-fin
  • fiu-mdvurj-mdv
  • fiu-prmurj-prm
  • fiu-ugrurj-ugr

At the same time, we should move the codes for the corresponding protolanguages:

  • fiu-fin-prourj-fin-pro
  • fiu-mdv-prourj-mdv-pro
  • fiu-prm-prourj-prm-pro
  • fiu-ugr-prourj-ugr-pro

as well as the code for the etymology-only lect Proto-Finno-Permic:

  • fiu-fpr-prourj-fpr-pro

I suppose we can keep fiu-pro as an etymology-only variant of urj-pro if it's important. What do others think? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:29, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

That seems like a lot of disruption for a small theoretical benefit: we've always used codes like aus, cau, nai and sai that we don't recognize as families for making exception codes, so it's not a huge violation of our naming logic. In this case, though, it looks to me like we don't recognize fiu more because it's too much like urj, not because it's invalid, per se (though I don't know a lot on the subject). We do have gmw-fri rather than gem-fri, for instance. Of course, I'd rather follow those who actually work in this area- especially @Tropylium. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:59, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
I have no opinion on moving around family codes either way (it doesn't seem they actually come up much, whatever they are), but if we start moving around the proto-language codes, I would like to suggest simple two-part codes. Proto-Samic and Proto-Samoyedic are already smi-pro and syd-pro, so is there any reason we couldn't make do with e.g. fin-pro, fpr-pro, ugr-pro etc.?
Also, as long as we're on this topic, at some point we are going to need the following:
  • Proto-Mansi: (ugr-/urj-?)mns-pro
  • Proto-Khanty: (ugr-/urj-?)kca-pro
  • Proto-Selkup: (ugr-/urj-?)sel-pro
No rush though, since so far we do not even have separate codes for their subdivisions. The only distinction that comes up in practice is distinguishing Northern Khanty from Eastern Khanty (Mansi and Selkup only have one main variety that is not extinct or nearly extinct). --Tropylium (talk) 10:53, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
There is, actually, a reason: our exception codes are designed to avoid conflict with the ISO 639 codes, so they start with an existing ISO 639 code or a code in the qaa-qtz range set aside by ISO 639 for private use. fin is one of the codes for the Finnish language. fpr and ugr are apparently unassigned- for now. As for the three proto-language codes, those don't need a family prefix because they already start with an ISO 639 code. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:06, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
The only codes in the qaa-qtz range we actually use are qfa as a prefix for otherwise unclassified families and qot for Sahaptin (a macrolanguage that wasn't given an ISO code of its own), right? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:55, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Right. And I didn't notice that we used qot although it is not an ISO code; it seems we followed Linguist List in using it. For consistency, I suggest changing it to fit our usual scheme, so nai-spt or similar (nai-shp is already in use as the family code). - -sche (discuss) 05:10, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
Support, for consistency. fiu is different from nai, because fiu is [a supposedly genetic grouping which is] agreed to be encompassed by a higher-level genetic family which also has an ISO code (urj), and that code can be used if we drop fiu. nai and sai are placeholders rather than genetic groupings, and they're useful ones, because If we dropped them we'd had to recode everything as qfa- (and might conceivably run out of recognizable/mnemonic codes at that point). - -sche (discuss) 05:10, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
Support per -sche, both the main issue being suggested here, as well as recoding Sahaptin. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:57, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
I've recoded Sahaptin and all the Finno-Ugric lects except fiu-fin / fiu-fin-pro which requires moving a lot of categories, which I will get to later. - -sche (discuss) 17:20, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Now there are lots of module errors in Cat:E as a result of these language code changes. It might be easiest to fix them by bot. @DTLHS, what do you think? — Eru·tuon 22:45, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. DTLHS (talk) 23:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon I've done a bunch of them- I think the reconstructions should be fixed by hand. DTLHS (talk) 23:22, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
@DTLHS: Three incorrect language codes remain, I think: fiu-ugr, fiu-fpr-pro, urj-fin-pro. I couldn't figure out what fiu-fpr-pro should be; it seems to refer to Proto-Finno-Permic, but I searched various language data modules and didn't find a match. Is there someone who can look through and fix the remaining module errors that relate to incorrect language codes? @Tropylium, @Angr, @-sche? — Eru·tuon 04:52, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Proto-Finno-Permic is an etymology-only language (and a kind of a legacy concept) that we encode as a variety of Proto-Uralic, if that helps. --Tropylium (talk) 13:58, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
The categories were easy to deal with: you just change the {{derivcatboiler}} to {{auto cat}} and the template plugs in the correct language code, if it exists. That also makes it a quick way to check whether there is a correct language code. by the time I finished that, there were only a dozen or so entries left in CAT:E due to everyone else's efforts, so I finished off the remainder by hand. It would have been easier if there hadn't been hundreds of other module errors cluttering up CAT:E- yet another reason for you to be more careful. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:10, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I apologise for not catching and fixing those uses at the time I renamed the codes. I searched all pages on the site for each of the old codes, and some pages turned up [including pages where the codes were used inside some templates, and I fixed those pages], so I forgot to also do an "insource:" search to catch other uses inside templates like {{m}}. We so rarely change language codes compared to changing language names. - -sche (discuss) 23:36, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

be glad to see the back of[edit]

to: see the back of

There are numerous alternative wordings to this, especially the be glad to portion of it, which could be, for example, I'll have no regrets when I.

As usual we lack a panoply of desirable redirects for the current version of the idiom. We should create many, especially for see his|her|their|my|your|our back(s). A usage example should include be glad to and possessive forms of nouns, eg, guest's back, Idi's back. DCDuring TALK 15:33, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Old Uighur language (oui) to Old Uyghur[edit]

Spelling is inconsistent (we spell the modern language Uyghur). DTLHS (talk) 23:28, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

January 2017[edit]


*aiginaz...should the descendants listed here be moved to *aiganaz ? Leasnam (talk) 03:34, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

This is really a question about the shape of the strong past participle in general. -inaz shows up in Old Norse, while -anaz appears in Gothic and West Germanic. The Old Norse form has made some people reconstruct -inaz for Proto-Germanic as well, but I'm not sure if that's right. The ending never seems to trigger umlaut, even though you'd expect it to - Old Norse has no problem with umlaut in the singular forms of verbs, so there's no reason it would be levelled out here. —CodeCat 14:01, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Appendix:List of Arora surnames[edit]

Maini's comes under Khatri's not under Arora's. Please recheck & correct. —This unsigned comment was added by (talk) at 14:20, 3 January 2017.

Turkish kâğıt, kağıt[edit]

I have no idea if leaving out the circumflex is a valid alternative spelling or a mistake. Crom daba (talk) 20:18, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Some discussion at Talk:kağıt suggests it may be a valid spelling even though the pronunciation is that of kâğıt. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 23:09, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

rubber-chicken dinner[edit]

to rubber chicken. Other dictionaries in OneLook have rubber chicken, not rubber-chicken dinner. There are abundant other collocations of rubber chicken both as a substantive and in attributive use. One common one is "rubber-chicken circuit". Examples of other nouns following rubber-chicken are lunch, banquet, affair, meal, fundraiser. Substantive use can be found in usages such as: Fortunately we'll spare everyone the rubber chicken and the speeches and simply acknowledge the guidance and vision of the world's best agent/coach/editor.

Rubber chicken is not identical to rubber (rubbery) + chicken either, though that is its origin. It specifically refers to the kind of organizational meals-with-speeches that crowd a politician's schedule, but also characterize conventions, off-site meetings, etc. DCDuring TALK 13:39, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Wiktionary:About Chinese/Sichuanese/words that are different from Standard Mandarin[edit]

I think the Appendix namespace is a better fit for this. Appendix:Sichuanese words that are different from Standard Mandarin? (Appendix:Sichuanese vocabulary that differs from Standard Mandarin?) —suzukaze (tc) 06:02, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Support move to Appendix space, neutral on specific wording of title.--Prisencolin (talk) 08:50, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I, like Prisencolin, also support moving this to the appendix space and am neutral with regard to how the page is otherwise titled. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 13:30, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Merger into Scandoromani[edit]

I propose that the Para-Romani lects Traveller Norwegian, Traveller Danish and Tavringer Swedish (rmg, rmd and rmu) be merged into Scandoromani. TN, TD and TS are almost identical, mostly differing in spelling (e.g. tjuro (Sweden) vs. kjuro (Norway) meaning 'knife', gräj vs. grei 'horse' etc.). WP treats them as variants of Scandoromani. My langcode proposal could be rom-sca, or maybe we could just use rmg, which already has a category. -- 20:19, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

February 2017[edit]

Renaming Kxoe[edit]

There's a bit of noise on BGC, but it seems that "Khwe" is more common that "Kxoe" for [xuu], and continues to be used in modern books. See w:Khwe language. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:12, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Chinese Pidgin English [cpi][edit]

This is not a separate language at all, it's just English with different grammar and some loanwords, but other than that it's completely intelligible with standard English. As such, it should be moved to Category:Chinese English. -- Pedrianaplant (talk) 15:19, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

That's not at all the impression I get from Chinese Pidgin English. It seems to be a distinct language to me, as much as any other English-based pidgin. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:45, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
We did delete Hawaiian Pidgin English in the past though (see Template talk:hwc). I don't see how this case is any different. -- Pedrianaplant (talk)
I know we did, but I didn't participate in that discussion (only 3 people did), and I disagree with it too, probably even more strongly than I disagree with merging cpi. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:02, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Basically, this is a terminological problem. There may have been a true pidgin in each of these cases, but it has not been recorded. What is called a pidgin in many descriptive works is instead a dialect of English that is very easy to understand, nothing like the real English-based pidgins and creoles that I have studied. If you look at the actual quotations used to support lemmas in Chinese Pidgin English, you find that it is Chinese English. Support merge, but leave [cpi] as an etymology-only code. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:16, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
  • At least some texts seem very distinct, to the point of unintelligibility; consider "Joss pidgin man chop chop begin" (Whedon's translator begins chopping things? or "god's businessman begins right away"?). On the other hand, other sentences given by Wikipedia are quite intelligible...and possibly not attestable under the stricter CFI to which English is subject. I'm not sure what to do. (Our short previous discussion also didn't reach a firm resolution.) - -sche (discuss) 17:46, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
    I mean, I use joss and chop chop in English normally (having grown up in a fairly Chinese environment likely has something to do with that)... and I think that was chosen as an especially extreme example. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:32, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


This needs to be moved to an entry in cuneiform script. @Ivan Štambuk, JohnC5Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:53, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Oh, and šarrum as well. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:54, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
šarrum is 𒈗. I think parāsum would be 𒉺𒁺𒋢𒌝 pa-rā-su-um. - -sche (discuss) 06:53, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

March 2017[edit]

Category:English doublets vs Category:English lexical doublets[edit]

These two categories are named confusingly similar, even though they refer to completely different things. I propose that one of the two is renamed so that this confusion is removed. —CodeCat 17:44, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree. The "lexical doublets" category isn't about doublets at all, it's about coordinated pairs. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:34, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I also agree. Shall we rename it to Category:English coordinated pairs? - -sche (discuss) 18:16, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
That seems like an improvement. —CodeCat 19:32, 15 March 2017 (UTC)


Nominated for merger into one-up by User:Ultimateria. I oppose this proposed merge, because I believe that the primary use of "one-up" is with respect to the concept of one-upmanship (which never uses the number "1"), while the primary means of referring to the video-game usage is with the number, not the letter. I see no advantage to merging if that leads to conflation of meanings, or leads to the lesser-used variation housing the meaning of a particular definition. bd2412 T 02:57, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

You're right, but I nominated it because I saw the same sense across two entries. The translations need to be merged, and one has to be established as the alt spelling. Have I been using this category wrong? Ultimateria (talk) 10:16, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Category:Thai letter names[edit]

This category name is breaking {{auto cat}}, because it starts with the language name "Thai". It should be renamed to something that doesn't start with a language name. —CodeCat 20:33, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Why not treat it the same way as Category:Latin_letter_names? —suzukaze (tc) 20:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
A good point, that one also breaks with {{auto cat}} and needs to be renamed too. —CodeCat 20:47, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
The alternative method suzukaze points out seems to solve things without requiring us to invent a less-common or clunkier name for the script. Tangentially, why is the entry for "Thai" in WT:LOS borked if a user has the "flags next to language headers" gadget turned on, but the entry for "Latin" is not borked, even though (as noted here) both Latin and Thai are both script and language names, and both have flag icons? - -sche (discuss) 18:14, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
We could opt to change the name of languageless topical categories, which has come up before. —CodeCat 19:31, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
I fixed the problem by adding a special case for letter name categories in Module:auto cat. — Eru·tuon 11:59, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Category:en:Place names to Category:en:Places[edit]

Our practice is to name topica/set categories based on the referent, not on the word. We have Category:en:Felids rather than Category:en:Names of felids or similar, and Category:en:Languages rather than Category:en:Language names. The words in this category do not refer to names, they are names that refer to places. —CodeCat 14:20, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

  • The title is more precise than "Places". I think it may be handy for any places, like unincorporated communities, which don't fit into another category, such as Towns, Cities, Villages, Regions etc. I would suggest leaving it as it is. DonnanZ (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Move per nom, IMO. I don't see how something would be a placename without referring to a place; are there examples? Btw, the category currently includes everything from the very broad Northern Hemisphere to Northern Europe to North Britain to Midlothian on down to the very specific, like Peckham; is it meant to include all places or should some of these be moved to more specific categories? - -sche (discuss) 16:56, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
We already have a bunch of finer categories, including Category:en:Polities which seems to be for man-made divisions. —CodeCat 17:02, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Peckham has been moved to Category:en:London. Midlothian has two other more suitable categories, so "Place names" has been removed. It may be possible that new homes can be found for other "waifs and strays" in Category:en:Place names. DonnanZ (talk) 18:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Seems logical. Equinox 20:20, 22 March 2017 (UTC)


This is pretty decidedly too distinct to be considered a dialect; I was just reading a grammatical description and it's heavily different from Swahili. Maho, Kisseberth, and others seem to agree that it is a separate language. As for the name, it seems that "Chimwiini" (sadly, with the language prefix) is a better option than "Bravanese", used at w:Bravanese dialect. I suppose the code could be bnt-mwi. @-sche, I noticed this because of muke; what other Chimwiini entries did you add? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:28, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

I know what your reasoning is for choosing bnt-mwi as the language code, but I think that it's better if the code matches the English name, thus bnt-chi or bnt-cmw. —CodeCat 18:56, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree it merits separation; indeed, I see articles going back to at least the 1960s pointing out that "Certainly Bravanese and standard Swahili are not mutually intelligible" (Morris Goodman's 1967 Prosodic Features of Bravanese, J. of African Languages 6). And yes, for better or worse codes have tended to be named based on the English names. Did you search for "Mwini" with one i? I find roughly comparable numbers of Google Books hits for "Mwini" Swahili, "Chimwiini" Swahili and "Bravanese" Swahili. (Ngrams, catching I-don't-know how much chaff, finds Mwini to be the most common spelling recently, followed by Bravanese — the most common spelling until recently — and then Mwiini, with Chimwiini not common enough for it to plot.) It looks like we could avoid the prefix if you wanted, though I defer to you if you checked more literature than the cross-section Google has digitized. Google Scholar has ~120 articles on "Chimwiini" Swahili compared to ~90 for "Mwini" Swahili, some of which are the irrelevant last name Mwini, and also ~90 for "Bravanese" Swahili, but many are bibliographies mentioning the same few articles. Other spellings I see, besides Chimwiini, Bravanese, Mwiini, and Mwini, include Chimwini, Chimini, and Brava. - -sche (discuss) 23:37, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
In my own files, and likely elsewhere, the Chichewa word mwini gets in the way. But in any case, most of the works I see dedicated to the language that aren't on the older end use "Chimwiini". Anyway, bnt-cmw is fine. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:43, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I've added the code bnt-cmw. Btw, I didn't add muke: that was User:Muke themself all the way back in 2006. :-p - -sche (discuss) 03:06, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm shocked that it wasn't part of your water-and-woman effort. I guess I'll add the word for water now. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:25, 27 March 2017 (UTC)


Duplication. – Jberkel (talk) 17:40, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

I suppose you mean that acknowledgment should be downgraded to an {{alternative spelling of}}. I'd suggest it should go the other way: acknowledgement should be an alternative spelling of acknowledgment. Google Books Ngrams shows that the short version is more common in English as a whole, and in American English, and was more common in British English until the 1960s. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:50, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I think current usage should be more important in determining where to place the full entry. If acknowledgement is now the most-used form, then that's where it should go. —CodeCat 18:54, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I just checked the NOW corpus and there acknowledgement is more common (roughly 2:1), from 2010-now. – Jberkel (talk) 20:37, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Over English as a whole, the short version is currently used more than the long version; the long version is currently used more only in British English, according to bgc ngrams. The NOW corpus disagrees, but seems to collect its data in a rather idiosyncratic way. Its results show acknowledgement collocating very frequently with material, but apparently only because "Sri Express" writes a disclaimer on a large number of pages saying, "If you feel any of your copyrighted material is seen without acknowledgement, email us at...". That doesn't seem to really count as multiple instances of that spelling to me. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:40, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree with CodeCat and Angr that the currently more common of two alternative forms should be the lemma; in this case, that's acknowledgment. Do British authorities prescribe the e spelling, though? If so, it's a {{standard spelling of|from=British spelling}} more than a {{alternative spelling of}}, and the tendency with regard to two standard forms has been to lemmatize the older entry — which in this case is still acknowledgment. - -sche (discuss) 22:31, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Merged per the discussion above. - -sche (discuss) 02:51, 27 March 2017 (UTC)