User talk:Saltmarsh

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Is not a rare form. Is just a form with some special meaning. It is chiefly used in "continuous aspects" (something like "I make requests, petitions, begging" etc.). It is never used in cases where παρακαλώ is used as interjection (answering the phone, responding to thanks, etc.); thus the "search" engines false counters may give rare usage... Also can't be used in Φέρε μου, σε παρακαλώ, έναν καφέ. These two phrases:

  1. Σε παρακαλώ να μου φέρεις έναν καφέ
  2. Σε παρακαλάω να μου φέρεις έναν καφέ

may have different meanings. First may mean Please, bring me some coffee but also may have the meaning of the second (possible unfinished sentence) I am pleasing you (or I am pleasing you a while) Apart of that "παρακαλούνται" (in ux in παρακαλώ) is the passive form, which is not included in Conjugation, and may arise inquires to the reader. (And happy new Year.)--Xoristzatziki (talk) 14:18, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Ευχαριστώ πολύ @Xoristzatziki:! We need every bit of help that we can get from native speakers, so you must feel free to edit errors like this when you come across them. And please add any help you can give with invaluable "Usage notes" (such as you give above). So please, please edit other's errors! As one of our help pages says "Please feel free to be bold in editing pages!" Thank you again and Καλή χρονιά! (you comment on the lack of passive forms in the conjugation table - I am revisiting this subject and will bother you for comments soon!) Saltmarsh (talk) 16:00, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

happy new verbs[edit]

Salt, happy 2018! Your year, i understand, starts with verbs, verbs, verbs. Mine started with nouns, nouns, nouns, but before i do anything, I will have to ask you a few things. After you conclude your ρηματοδρομία (i made up the word in your honour). sarri.greek (talk) 00:02, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
2018.01.10. Salt, I thank you for adding my name at that list... I do not understand exactly what it does, but thank you... very kind. I checked nouns in various grammars, with your list as a guide. Here is a comparison of wiktionary-DSGM noun tables. Whenever you have time... I've done some example-edits. Please, add a >>NO<< or >>YES<< if you want me to do continue in this line:

  • 1) ροδάκινο >> << (Is that 'το' terribly unwiktionarian? --cannot do the reference thing right--).
    • @Sarri.greek: - I've resurfaced :)
    • no - I don't think the "το" a good idea, although each language has its own style, I don't know of any in Wiktionary which do this. — I always assumed that it was the traditional way of indicating gender in Greek dictionaries (although then it would probably be "ροδάκινο (το)").
    • Your space is in the wrong place! <references /> is what you need. Saltmarsh (talk) 07:53, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
  • 2) βοοειδή >> << @Sarri.greek:
    • I would do it this way. (a) I often put the non-lemma POS heading below the lemma POS heading, it seems the most logical even if it bends the rules. (b) The etymology belongs at the top. (Strictly it should probably have Etym 1 & Etym 2 headings.)
    • I have in some cases omitted creating a Noun Lemma page, but put in a gloss line like this hypothetical example - also with a Category link to categorise it as a Noun:
1 busy, industrious
2 (as a noun) a busy person

Also i changed Αγίες Τράπεζες to Άγιες Τράπεζες. Priests say: Οι Αγίες X adn Z (the saints), quasi the singular Η αγία. But there is no 'αγίες' type anywhere. sarri.greek (talk) 11:51, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Participle v Adjective[edit]

And then i thought, why don't i do something easy: Inflection-pages for participles. Αααααχ geek_participles! I messed up even the easiest task: inflection pages of θλιμμένος. The lemma is participle and all the infl.pages i made by mistake adjectives. But the confusion developed from a real ambiguation.

  • problem 1: If we write PoS=adjective we LOOSE them from Cat:participles. How will we get them in that list? αγαπημένος χαμένος Grammatically, they ARE participles. Semantically they are adj. Sometimes substintivized too.
  • problem 2: Lots of them are described as 'Participle' σκέτο (αιματοβαμμένος) or as 'Past Participle' which does not exist as a Category (αγαπημένος) The new schoolgrammar by Philippaki et al.) labels them as κλιτή μετοχή -μένος -μένη -μένο & άκλιτη μετοχή -οντας -ώντας, adding that it functions as adverb (in el.witkonary we find 'επιρρηματική μετοχή' sometimes (el:αγοράζοντας)). Althouth this book is for children, it is good.
  • problem 3: perfect participle of θλίβομαι (not mentioning the 'passiveness') / in geek it would have been: μετοχή παθητικού παρακειμένου του θλίβω.

I'll correct the mistakes, and if there is a decision on PoS Participle versus Adjective, I will go on. P.S. I checked your name: salt marsh. I thhhhink it is not αλυκή. Maybe el:λιμνοθάλασσα/lagoon?? like the one we have at Μεσσολόγγι photos of both αλυκή & λιμνοθάλασσα, where poor Byron died. Αλυκή is very sunny, no plants. Ta-ta!! sarri.greek (talk) 11:51, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

1) @Sarri.greek: When I started editing here I created participles as "adjectives" - might even sometimes have put in an etymology saying it was a participle. Then I noticed that Βικιλεξικό had "Μετοχή" ! And started doing this here. Hence the ambiguation. But some words with the appearance of a particple don't seem to have a verb (or maybe a very rare one).
2) For what it is worth I would use an "Adjective" PoS heading for all of them, put the particple info under "Etymology", and put a [[Category:Greek ....]] statement to categorise it (twice - as adj and participle).
3) Would you like to lead a discussion on this - perhaps at Category talk:Greek participles - and draw in some of our other 'Greek' editors, particularly Greek ones! I have avoided addressing this for some time partly because such discussion can take forever without reaching a definite conclusion. Saltmarsh (talk) 07:38, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Thank you @Saltmarsh: very much. I will follow your 2) (adding both) and linguists may fight their battles in the meantime. The participles are in rebellion and want to get out of the verb-conjug-tables :)) P.S. Περαστικά σας. sarri.greek (talk) 07:46, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

your verbs are great[edit]

Dear mentor, I am following your hard work with the verb templates. Tell me if you need me to do sth for you. sarri.greek (talk) 14:38, 24 January 2018 (UTC)


Hi, would you mind checking whether the cite at πικάπ (pikáp) is under the correct sense? Thanks in advance. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:38, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo:I don't think it's sense specific. I've rearranged the entry and have to check the translation (ξαναβάλω is unknown to me and may be colloquial in this context). — Saltmarsh. 06:30, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Apologies for butting in. I've tightened the translation for you: "ξανάβαλε την πρίζα πίσω" means "he/she put the plug back in". -Stelio (talk) 10:35, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
All right, the entry looks good now, thanks to both of you. (@Stelio) ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:47, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Verb inflection templates[edit]

@Sarri.greek, Xoristzatziki, Stelio, Rossyxan — I believe that the current verb inflection tables could be improved - for example most other sources include passive forms - so I have been working on a new set of templates (they are still changing so please don't use them other than in a sandbox). Sarri.greek has been invaluably helpful, but if you believe this is a mistaken exercise please say! The current templates are over-complicated and difficult to improve - the new ones should be easier to edit, for that reason every alternative form will not be shown.

The new ones are listed in Category:User:Saltmarsh and example can be seen at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox3.

1. Is the general layout and terminology OK? If not PLEASE say. The header is only for use during development. Any comment on the actual verb forms shown can follow later.
2. If you are interested in experimenting (and please do!) look at the parameter list there and try out the template - are the names, although abbreviated, meaningful. You should be able to see how they work from the example "λύνω" shown. Those with TABLE in their names are secondary and called by the other three.
Thank you in advance — Saltmarsh. 11:32, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
I like it! That's a great layout with powerful content. I particular like the centring of terms. A couple of small fixes:
  • The ↑ mouseovers are inconsistent: some are just Greek, some just English, some a mix. (And the one for "Dependent" has a typo.)
  • @Stelio: (a)Just alternative terms -any others welcomed - I have put some Greek terms and have to sort others. I may come toyou for help? (b)Thanks for being kind about my spelling :) — Saltmarsh. 12:19, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Redlink entries are showing in black for me. Possibly the order of formatting needs tweaking in the CSS (I haven't dug into this, since you're still in development - let me know if you want me to diagnose).
  • Yes - the style/class used does this to prevent a plethora of red links - it could be dropped if desirable. Thanks for the quick response — Saltmarsh. 12:19, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Great work; well done to you both!
Out of interest, have you looked also at how Βικιλεξικό handles verb tables? -Stelio (talk) 11:53, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Yes I have looked at them - if you think we should take hints please say.— Saltmarsh. 12:20, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Salt, you are TOO kind to me. And patient with my notes. Please publish!!!! We are waiting! sarri.greek (talk) 15:21, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Well — there were so many of them! See some below. — Saltmarsh. 15:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
I mean publish VERBS. We are looking forward to it. (I didn't mean the notes) sarri.greek (talk) 15:57, 19 February 2018 (UTC) Ohhh just saw it. You do not need all these here... Erase them... Oh dear... I would never litter you page with all this blah-blah of mine:) sarri.greek (talk) 16:00, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek: Συγγνώμη — Saltmarsh. 18:37, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
No, was my fault. the word publish. Thanks, you page looks nicer now. sarri.greek (talk) 22:23, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Active/Passive format[edit]

@Sarri.greek, Stelio It was suggested or I was asked (elsewhere I think) about splitting the active and passive tables so that we had more horizontal room for the alternative forms. Please say which you prefer of the two options (see User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox3 (the "conjugation of …" headings will change!) — thanks — Saltmarsh. 07:22, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I like the juxtaposition of Active Passive. Perhaps for very long words, split. The tables I have seen in Wiktionary (various languages) splitting horizontally, have very differnet structure: everything is horizontal (the persons). Yours are different. Λύω looks so slim without λύομαι. IF yout had all moods horizontally, then it would be a different story. (by the way: αναπαρΑστάθηκα αναπαρΑστημένος. sarri.greek (talk) 07:34, 22 February 2018 (UTC) +Your old tables would split. That's what I mean. As the now published λύω. But now you changed structure sarri.greek (talk) 07:40, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek: That sounds like a good compromise - the editor will have the choice of two tables for long words. — Saltmarsh. 11:49, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
oh lovely if there is option for both... May I show you? at Sandbox... sarri.greek (talk) 11:51, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Please do @Sarri.greek:! — Saltmarsh. 11:55, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
-Stelio (talk) 15:17, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Thanks @Stelio: — The Category:Greek mediopassive verbs contains mediopassives - I think that the morphology is the same for deponent, passive forms, mediopassive, etc — the same template can be used and the heading text can be changed by the editor. I have already have single voice verbs covered (see Category:User:Saltmarsh and truncated ones like έχω can be dealt with separately.
  • By all means discuss in the Beer Parlour, I probably shouldn't say but I'm a bit cynical about it. Either no reply arrives or ten people reply with twelve points of view - So Cheers — Saltmarsh. 06:22, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
That reminds me of the Polish phrase: gdzie dwóch Polaków, tam trzy zdania. ;-) -Stelio (talk) 10:50, 23 February 2018 (UTC)


Hi, I noticed that there are the same mistakes on these pages ενδιαφέρουσα, ενδιαφέροντες and ενδιαφέρουσες (the last two before my edit). It says that the non-lemma is the vocative form of ενδιαφέρων, except ενδιαφέρων has no vocative case. On all three pages it should actually be the accusative form of... It's no big deal but I thought that maybe you used some tool or script to generate these pages and thus the same error might be elsewhere too. — Orgyn (talk) 17:30, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

  • @Orgyn: Thanks I'll look at it. do we need a new template less vocative forms? — Saltmarsh. 19:11, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh: The template are already without the vocative case. However, I've seen that on the Greek wiktionary and another website ( that the vocative case for these kind of adjectives do exist. So maybe the case should in fact be added? — Orgyn (talk) 21:16, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
  • @Orgyn: Thanks again - I'm sorry that I didn't take more than a cursory glance at your text. I hope that it is fixed now. Cheers — Saltmarsh. 05:20, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Simple past of καλούμαι[edit]

Hi, in the καλούμαι entry you wrote that the simple past is καήθηκα, but all the sources I've seen gives κλήθηκα instead. Was this a typo? — Orgyn (talk) 13:06, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

@Orgyn: An odd typo, but looks like something like that - thanks for your time searching it out — Saltmarsh. 05:28, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Issues in βλέπομαι[edit]

Hi, there are three small mistakes in the conjugation table of the verb (but maybe hard to fix). The aorist form always starts with "ει" even in the first and second person plural, i.e. ειδωθήκαμε, ειδωθήκατε. Same thing for the alternate form of the third person plural. I think the problem is that, because the accent changes, the "future" form is used by the template... If you could fix it, that would be great :D. Many thanks! — Orgyn (talk) 09:41, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

@Orgyn: THANKS for noticing and telling me - it'll be a while before I can attend to it, in the meanwhile I have rem'ed it out. I am working on some new - simpler to use - conjugation tables and it's useful to have "irregulars" to test with. — Saltmarsh. 11:12, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
@Orgyn: - done, it was less of a problem than I thought. — Saltmarsh. 14:22, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh: Perfect! Your new templates are great, thanks for the work! — Orgyn (talk) 14:36, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Categories of verbs[edit]

Dear Salt, thank you for all your verb templates! About categories:

  • 1) As a rule, do you always open a new category for 1.normal (active+passive) / only / 3.for passive only / 4.for active-imperfective / 5.for passive-imperfective (even if they have verb few verbs). As you do at Cat 'ορίζω'?
  • 2) The distinction of a bisyllabic verb (λύω) which has a visible augment (έλυσα) while a longer word (παραλύω) does not: παράλυσα or παρέλυσα. I understand that we put such bisyllabic verbs, in the general Cat?

Thanks, boss! sarri.greek (talk) 16:20, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Difficult question @Sarri.greek! I think I must rely upon the knowledge of a native. The trouble will be that two natives could probably devise 3 ways of doing it, so there probably cannot be any absolute rules. I would suggest:
1. All verbs following one act/pass pattern (like Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'ορίζω')
2. If a category like Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'κερδίζω' proves to have only one member (this is only an example) it could possibly be merged with another.
3. We should be prepared to merge and split cats in the light of experience.
Q.2 above. If your question is, should λύω ανδ παραλύω be in the same cat. I don't know. I would tend to say yes, but not with any degree of confidence!
Saltmarsh. 06:10, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek we have an example already σκίζω, σχίζω, βρίζω, κτίζω do these augmented ones belong with ορίζω ? — Saltmarsh. 06:42, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes, @Saltmarsh, the Cats can be SO MANY!. On your last comment (σκίζω etc) I think the bisyllabic verbs can be together with the longer, hyperbisyllabic verbs: no harm, everyone understands. Of course, when we say it conjugates like we do not mean IDENTICALLY (as we see at fr:Catégorie:Conjugaison en français). E.g. the prefixes of the compounds behave differently.
As for voice: if a verb is only-active or only-passive, i think, it should go separately. 5 categories for each group (counting the imperfective ones too)... (2)_The ones with 1-4 members only could just go to Cat:active-only verbs, with no further categorization.
There is another solution: very BROAD categories, but the expression should not be conjugate like. There could be cats as in DSMG, plus the irregulars α...ω.
I would love it if Wiktionary had lots and lots of precise categories like the French, but, they are going to be so many... It is yourrrrr decision!. sarri.greek (talk) 07:34, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
It will be perhaps easier @Sarri.greek to split large categories later - either way the decision can't be mine. — Saltmarsh. 09:37, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

groups of categories[edit]

Your description, Salt, at Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'ορίζω' is excellent. My trials with different vowel-ending verbs with irregularities, show me that the solo-verbs (unique) are TOO many. Your proposed solution is to mention the sister-categories. Why not create groups of categories? e.g, Category:Greek verb conjugation group 'κλείω' (or something meaning group of conjugations) which will have in it the main active+passive Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'αποκλείω', and all the unique verbs (not forming categories). If a subcategory has more than X verbs (5? 10?), then it may form a Cat..conjugating like zzzz. Here is the group 'κλείω' (€ = any vowel sound, ∅ = no sound). The group 'λύω' with the Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'διαλύω' on the other hand, has the [∅-s-θ-∅] vowel-ending verbs (-ω-σα-θηκα-μένος). And so on, for the consonant-ending verbs...

Is it possible? sarri.greek (talk) 06:36, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Since I know nothing about linguistics and not a lot about Greek verbs I feel totally unqualified to classify verbs. But grouping categories is an excellent idea — Category:Greek verbs conjugation group 'xxxx' sounds like a good general style. And aside from "conjugation" categories more general ones are possible like Category:Greek verbs using an internal augment. — Saltmarsh. 07:25, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
Oh boss! This is a Xmas gift: lovely. solves everything. I am reluctant to create new things, unless you say yes. And about 'internal augments'... Yes, it could: manually, I guess. Neither am I a linguist, I just follow the classification: vowel-ending and for consonant ending: labials, dentals etc. Thank youuuu sarri.greek (talk) 07:38, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Happy New Year[edit]

Salt! Happy, happy 2019!! Could you check this Template:el-adj-fem back from April 2018. Someone made it for αλληλοσυγκρουόμενη (from αλληλοσυγκρούομαι). Your sarri.greek (talk) 00:00, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

And the same to you @Sarri.greek - and thanks for all your work in 2018. I'll delete {{el-adj-fem}} unused and unneeded! — Saltmarsh. 06:26, 2 January 2019 (UTC)