Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits

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Wiktionary Request pages (edit) see also: discussions
Requests for cleanup
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Cleanup requests, questions and discussions.

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Requests for deletion of pages in the main namespace due to policy violations; also for undeletion requests.

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Requests for deletion of pages in other (not the main) namespaces, such as categories, appendices and templates.

Requests for verification/English
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Requests for verification in the form of durably-archived attestations conveying the meaning of the term in question.

Requests for moves, mergers and splits
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Moves, mergers and splits; requests listings, questions and discussions.

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Requests for deletion and undeletion of foreign entries.

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Requests for verification of entries in Chinese, Japanese, Korean or any other language using an East Asian script.

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Requests for verification of foreign entries.

{{rfap}} • {{rfdate}} • {{rfquote}} • {{rfdef}} • {{rfd-redundant}} • {{rfe}} • {{rfex}} • {{rfi}} • {{rfp}}

All Wiktionary: namespace discussions 1 2 3 4 5 - All discussion pages 1 2 3 4 5

This page is designed to discuss moves (renaming pages), mergers and splits. Its aim is to take the burden away from the Beer Parlour and Requests for Deletion where these issues were previously listed. Please note that uncontroversial page moves to correct typos, missing characters etc. should not be listed here, but moved directly using the move function.

  • Appropriate: Renaming categories, templates, Wiktionary pages, appendices, rhymes and occasionally entries. Merging or splitting temp categories, templates, Wiktionary pages, appendices, rhymes.
  • Out of scope: Merging entries which are alternative forms or spellings or synonyms such as color/colour or traveled/travelled. Unlike Wikipedia, we don’t redirect in these sort of situations. Each spelling gets its own page, often employing the templates {{alternative spelling of}} or {{alternative form of}}.
  • Tagging pages: To tag a page, you can use the general template {{rfm}}, as well as one of the more specific templates {{move}}, {{merge}} and {{split}}.

Note that discussions for splitting, merging, and renaming languages are often also held here, and should be archived to WT:LTD when closed.


Category:Japanese humble language[edit]

Category:Japanese humble terms

I noticed the nonexistent topical category Category:ja:Humble in Special:WantedCategories, and checked, as I often do, whether there was an existing category that already covered the subject. I found these two. The first one was created by User:Haplology, and has more information about Japanese culture, while the other one was created by User:Atitarev along with Category:Korean humble terms, and is more suited to a multi-language series of categories.

It seems to me that Category:Japanese humble terms fits our naming scheme better, so I propose we merge both into that one, and that we convert it and the Korean category to use {{lexiconcatboiler}}, which is designed for this kind of thing. That means creating a category called Category:Humble terms by language with a general description of humble language in its subtemplate. We can then add language-specific details to the Japanese and Korean categories.

I suspect that there aren't many languages that have such well-developed and institutionalized humble lexicons as these do, but I'm sure there are an awful lot of languages that have at least a few such terms- "your humble servant" comes to mind as an English example. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's only to do with two languages - Korean and Japanese. Note: some people mix "honorific" with "polite" or "formal" but the exact concept currently exists only in Japanese and Korean, even if other languages have similar ideas, "honorific" and "humble" are opposite and used in out- and in-group references.
I have posted on User:Haplology's page some time ago, which is now archived. You can see here: [1]. Haplology admitted that the structure wasn't perfect and needs fixing.
The current setup:
In my opinion it should be:
Which matches Japanese more closely.
@Eirikr might add more to it. I didn't get around to fixing it but I will. It's not a big list. Korean can and should be structured the same way. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:26, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The suggested structure above (2) shows that honorific and humble terms are both part of the respectful formal language but honorific is used in reference to outgroup and humble - to ingroup. The concept and usage are critical in formal communication in Japanese and Korean languages. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:31, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We could also put them directly under Category:Japanese formal terms, if that works. —CodeCat 01:07, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's not the same, although if it's related. Category:Japanese honorifics should be a subcategory of Category:Japanese formal terms. "Formal" is opposed to "colloquial" but respectful language is a specific variety, which needs special training, including native Japanese students. E.g. おっしゃる (ossharu, honorific) shows respect to the 2nd/3rd person or outgroup and is never used in self-reference in the polite speech, whereas 申す (mōsu, humble) is used to self-reference or ingroup (even if one talks about own CEO!). Formal words are used regardless who/what they refer to in the formal language, like in any language. An interesting example might be that a person talking to an outsider about own general manager without polite "-san" (e.g. simply Yamada, not Yamada-san) and using humble terms. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wiktionary:Foo → Category:Wiktionary foo[edit]

I have just finished moving Category:Wiktionary:Language considerations to Category:Wiktionary language considerations in accordance with the discussion above. But that's not the only category that's using "Wiktionary:" as a pseudonamespace. I therefore propose all of the following moves:

If there is consensus to make these name changes, I also request someone with a bot to do it, because the move I did by hand wasn't particularly big, but it sure was tedious. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe some of these should have "Wiktionary" removed from the names. Not sure which though. —CodeCat 14:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Help already exists and it isn't clear what the difference is between it and Category:Wiktionary:Help, so those two probably really should be merged. The same goes for Category:Pronunciation and Category:Wiktionary:Pronunciation: they both exist, but seem to have the same function. Category:Statistics is a topic category covering things like Category:en:Statistics and Category:de:Statistics, so it can't be merged with Category:Wiktionary:Statistics. Category:Translation seems like a good potential topic category too, even though it isn't one yet, so I'd rather keep that one free at least. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:55, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've moved Category:Wiktionary:Help,and Daniel has moved Category:Wiktionary:Transliteration. - -sche (discuss) 18:35, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support all, since most subcategories of Category:Wiktionary are of the "Wiktionary foo" form. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 02:58, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've boldly moved Category:Wiktionary:StatisticsCategory:Wiktionary statistics (and updated subcategories and pages). - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 21:08, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've now also moved Category:Wiktionary:Multilingual issuesCategory:Wiktionary multilingual issues. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 00:04, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Moved Category:Wiktionary pronunciation and Category:Wiktionary reference. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 21:11, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Moved Category:Wiktionary translation, meaning (after eight years) this is resolved, unless anyone has anything to add. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 22:05, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]


This poorly maintained category should be combined with Category:Taxonomy. The poor maintenance arises from the overlap conceptually as well as the poor choice of name for this category. In addition, for some undocumented and unfathomable reason Category:Taxonomy was made a subcategory of Category:Systematics. I think this is symptomatic of the unmaintainablity of the category. DCDuring TALK 19:14, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support. —CodeCat 20:25, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if we should merge the two. In the English categories, at least, the members seem to be correctly apportioned between the two, with a handful of exceptions. I do think they should be made sister categories, rather than one being under the other. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would support that too. —CodeCat 20:46, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What are the criteria that distinguish membership in the categories? Many dictionaries have them as synonyms in one or more of the variously defined senses and subsenses, two of which BTW systematics lacks. DCDuring TALK 13:53, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Here we have just various terms to denote the same affair, and “systematics” is a less expected and ambiguous one. With “systematics” I of course understand the systematic interpretation of law. Fay Freak (talk) 13:09, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support merger. I don't see a difference worth preserving. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 13:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
An excellent job for a bot. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 21:32, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Khanty words with /ɬ/[edit]

Requesting a move of a dozen Khanty words:

These have /ɬ/, which is however written ӆ and not ԓ (this is instead, I believe, /ɭ/). Quite a few current entries are sourced from a dictionary (Kononova 2002) which uses a rather ԓ-like but regardless clearly el-with-tail glyph. --Tropylium (talk) 13:24, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(Listed here in case anyone wants to argue that ԓ for /ɬ/ is actually a competing dialectal standard that should have precedence. --Tropylium (talk))
I think you are mostly going to talk to yourself in this section. Move, if Tropylium says so. --Vahag (talk) 14:23, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would say just go ahead and move them yourself. Unless there's a chance that other languages will have terms using the original spellings, the redirects that you leave will actually be useful for those who make the same mistake when searching. Given the similarity of the characters, I have a hunch scannos from online books might be a major source of these. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:38, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
According to Wikipedia, w:Khanty language uses both letters (Ӆ ӆ and Ԓ ԓ). Are you certain that these particular words are spelled with Ӆ ӆ? —Stephen (Talk) 15:04, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Update: apparently the normative glyph is in fact ԯ (el with descender). However, this has not been widely available in fonts, so ӆ or ԓ have been used as workaround solutions in some materials. (Can anyone reading this actually see the first glyph?) --Tropylium (talk) 09:42, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Tropylium: Just FYI, the free font Quivira supports Ԯ, ԯ (Ԯ, ԯ). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 10:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Tropylium, do these still need to be moved? - -sche (discuss) 22:55, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
They do, though we never did settle here if we should move them to use ԯ or ӆ. Since the latter is attestable as well, and seems to render better, I would be okay with it (even if we might be setting ourselves up for replacing these again with alternate-spelling soft-redirects some years down the line). --Tropylium (talk) 01:57, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I actually think I prefer ԓ; it's used in this dictionary for instance, and like Tropylium said, it renders better. Thadh (talk) 14:35, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Category:Probability, Category:Probability theory and Category:Statistics[edit]

The terminology of probability theory and statistics overlaps so much that there is little point in maintaining the two disciplines as separate topical categories.

I also cannot see the point of maintaining Category:Probability separately from Category:Probability theory — unless it is meant to contain terms used in informal discussions of probability (as opposed to mathematical formalisation thereof).

Also, Category:Linear algebra and Category:Vector algebra are one and the same. I would suggest deleting the latter, except I am too lazy to do a separate nomination for those.

Asking Msh210 to weigh in, just in case. Keφr 19:10, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I'm aware, w:vector algebra, q.v., and linear algebra are identical. Probability theory is a far cry, to my mind, from statistics. In particular, their uses are different: lots and lots of people use statistics, and the words that are relevant to statistics, without knowing or caring anything about probability theory. Perhaps one topcat for statistics and applied probability and another for probability theory? But they'll share quite a few words. Perhaps instead one for statistics and one for probability? They, too, will share quite a few words. So I don't know the best course of action. Maybe we should keep the three categories we have now, but rename "Probability" to "Applied probability". If we do decide to have separate topcats for applied probability and for probability theory, then perhaps merge the latter into category:Measure theory?​—msh210 (talk) 03:35, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have speedy-merged "Vector algebra" into "Linear algebra". Only three entries were affected: [[գրադիենտ]], [[ristitulo]] and [[vektoritulo]]. Keφr 18:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As for "lots of people use words relevant to statistics without caring about probability theory" — can you clarify that with an example? Keφr 18:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Practical statisticians, like w:Gonçalo Abecasis and w:Nate Silver, probably know little (and care little) about σ-algebras and probability measures.​—msh210 (talk) 21:42, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think these particular two terms would actually fit better in Category:en:Measure theory than in Category:en:Probability theory anyway (yes, even the latter). They are not "purely probabilistic" terms — in fact, I doubt any such terms exist, otherwise I would not propose this merger. Keφr 22:16, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe they would fit better there. As I said above, "If we do decide to have separate topcats for applied probability and for probability theory, then perhaps merge the latter into category:Measure theory".​—msh210 (talk) 00:29, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, the question to ask is what terms are characteristic to "applied probability" as opposed to "pure" probability and statistics. Right now Category:en:Probability contains terms like mgf, stochastic matrix and evens — of which only the latter seems rather non-statistical. On the other hand, it would be awkward to find probability distribution in a category whose name does not mention probability. Keφr 15:23, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Kephir I think you are wrong about no purely probabilistic terms existing. But, even if you are correct, that doesn't in and of itself mean that Category:Probability should be deleted. Msh and I have posited that statistics-only terms exist. Statistics-only terms shouldn't be in the same combination of categories as statistics-and-probability terms; probability could continue to exist as a subcategory of statistics even if no probability-only terms were found to exist. Purplebackpack89 00:52, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In defense of the quote "lots of people use words relevant to statistics without caring about probability theory", there are lots of statistics that can be discerned without using probability. Rates, and to a certain extent averages, concern probability, but statistics is also enumerations and changes, which can be calculated without using probability. Purplebackpack89 23:37, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Merged Category:Probability into Category:Probability theory (see also #Category:Probability_into_Category:Probability_theory). Kept Category:Statistics. — Fytcha T | L | C 〉 18:14, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]


This just sounds too silly, at least from a North American perspective, and is really not something I would ever think to type in if looking for the category. Is there anyone to whom Category:en:Toilet would not be equally or more intuitive than Category:en:WC? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've complained about this one before, back when it was a template: I would hazard a guess that there are very few in the US that even know what WC refers to. It's also odd to see it categorized under Category:Rooms, especially since it's the only subcategory under it. That means that Category:Feces is a sub-sub-sub-category of Category:Buildings and structures- counterintuitive, to say the least. The other subcategory of Category:WC, Category:Toiletry is another oddity, since it has nothing to do with water closets, and contains Category:Cosmetics
The problem is that all of the common English terms are euphemisms, and most have had considerable evolution in meaning, so there's nothing really clear and obvious worldwide. Strictly speaking, a water closet is the plumbing fixture, but has apparently come to mean the room that houses it. This is also true of toilet, and, I believe, loo, as well (our entry is ambiguous about that). At least water closet isn't ambiguous- toilet also refers to grooming, washing one's face, etc. Another US term, bathroom can refer to a room containing a bath, and lavatory can refer to a sink. Terms such as restroom, and ladies' room/men's room are vague enough that anyone who doesn't already know what they refer to will have no clue from the name. We need to figure out which term is most recognizable in all parts of the world.
As I mentioned above, we really need to rethink this part of the category tree: feces have little to do with buildings, and cosmetics have nothing to do with feces. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:29, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What he said, basically. The whole structure needs redoing. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:46, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I propose moving Category:en:WCCategory:Toilet (room), as this is what Wikipedia uses (though it also has bathroom for rooms containing baths / showers). I also propose making Category:Feces a subcategory of Category:Animals, since it is not specific to humans. (Category:en:Feces, for example, contains manure.) - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 22:08, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Perching birds[edit]

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2015/June#Category:Perching_birds.

This used to be at Category:Passerines, but was moved a few months ago - I would like to suggest it be moved back. Passerines is the more commonly used term (Google Ngram), particularly in the bird community. I doubt perching birds is in particularly common use; the common term is probably songbirds, which is technically inaccurate as it is usually taken to mean only the oscines. Keith the Koala (talk) 11:30, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved this to the proper venue for such requests. I'll comment on substance shortly. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:44, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for redefining the meaning of "shortly"... I renamed the category in the first place in an effort to make it more accessible to general users: I remembered seeing the Passeriformes referred to in various encyclopedias and bird books over the years as the "Perching Birds", and I also wondered if anyone would be confused by the fact that "-ines" names for animals are usually reserved for subfamilies (which end in -inae). Given that most users of this dictionary are probably not "in the bird community" and probably have never heard of terms such as passerines or oscines before coming here, I'm not sure how important it is to reflect usage in this case. That said, there are probably only a handful of languages with enough bird names to even need an intermediate category like this, so it's not really that big a deal. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Passerines" is uncommon, but it's not some obscure technical term - turn on Springwatch and you can hear Chris Packham talking about passerines until your wings fall off. "Perching birds" is really no better - nobody actually says "perching birds" except to try and explain what "passerines" means, on top of which it's not SoP (lots of other birds perch) so people might think they understand it when they don't. tbh, I'd be happiest with just lumping all birds in Category:Birds, I think it's easy to overcategorize these things. Keith the Koala (talk) 14:42, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Passerines" remind me of the often-used fungus group, the LBMs (little brown mushrooms).
If we continue to develop vernacular names and taxonomic names in parallel (to the extent that they are parallel), we can have the luxury of different classifications in different languages, not to mention the structure that emerges from Derived terms and the semantic relations headings. The relationships among taxonomic names are likely to diverge increasingly from those among vernacular names.
Among bird names, though, there is a major effort to have vernacular language names that correspond to taxonomic names and relationships. (Similarly with mammals.) The IOC birdname website has English bird family names (sometimes in form like "Kites, hawks, and eagles" or "Pheasants and allies") that seem designed to be in one-to-one correspondence with taxonomic family names. There are frequent correspondences at genus and species level as well. I'm not sure about higher levels.
Birds (Aves) are a class (or a clade) that we have fairly well covered AFAICT. It affords us one of the best opportunities to have good vernacular categorization and naming. I don't see why we don't have categories that correspond to multiple levels of groups of birds, though I would prefer that "bird" be left to at least one of the definition, image, and Hypernyms in the entry to communicate.
Both 'Passerines' and 'Perching birds' seem like high levels of categorization that don't well correspond to words in vernacular language usage. The IOC doesn't help much with terms like 'Oscines' and 'Suboscines'. A vernacular type-based name like 'Sparrow-like birds' would be communicative, but has little else to recommend it. DCDuring TALK 23:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The birding equivalent is LBJs (little brown jobs). Chuck Entz (talk) 06:04, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

West African Pidgin English varieties[edit]

Ethnologue has assigned codes to some but not all of the varieties of West African Pidgin English, and we in turn have incorporated some (e.g. pcm) but not all (e.g. not gpe) of those codes. As WP notes, the "contemporary English-based pidgin and creole languages are so similar that they are sometimes grouped together under the name 'West African Pidgin English'" (a name which also denotes their predecessor which developed in the 1700s). WP's examples are illustrative, particularly in that its Ghanaian and Nigerian Pidgin English examples are identical. I propose to merge at least the following three varieties into wes, renaming it "West African Pidgin English":

  1. Ghanaian Pidgin English (gpe)
  2. Nigerian Pidgin English (pcm)
  3. Cameroonian Pidgin English (wes)

We could also discuss whether or not to merge Sierra Leone Krio (kri, which WP notes its often mistaken for English slang due to its similarity to English, but which has a somewhat distinct alphabet), Pichinglis / Fernando Po Creole (fpe), and Liberian Kreyol / Liberian Pidgin English (lir). - -sche (discuss) 21:11, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The question is a very complex one. Firstly (but of least importance), scholars are divided on which lects have creolised and which have not, but it is generally agreed upon that at least some of the language you mentioned are not pidgins, which would make the name "West African Pidgin English" somewhat of a misnomer (the more neutral name "Wes-Kos" have been suggested as an alternative, but even linguists haven't fully adopted it). Secondly, all these lects are remarkably similar on a lexical level, but that's unsurprising; after all, they resulted from separate but very similar language contact events, and then probably modified each other (one scholar posits that Krio and Cameroonian Pidgin English relexified each other to some degree after pidginisation). The similarities are also obscured by the fact that there is nothing close to an agreed orthography for most of these, and pronunciation does differ a bit across West Africa. Linguistically, I'd probably merge them all, but practically that may not be the best decision. I know we have entries in pcm, but probably next to nothing for the rest, and if somebody wants to add them, given how each lect is very neatly assigned to a certain West African country, at least it won't be confusing for them to do so. Conclusion: the literature is schizophrenic, the lects mutually intelligible, and the existing situation remarkably unproblematic. Therefore I abstain. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:19, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Appendix:Glossary of collective nouns by subject[edit]

Appendix:English collective nouns[edit]

Appendix:Glossary of collective nouns by collective term[edit]

(Appendix:English collective nouns is edit protected, so I can't place the template there, but I guess that would be the more sensible target location)

Redundant to each other. Both pages have serious clean-up issues, of course (has anyone ever actually called a group of cheetahs a "coalition", or is that a joke at the expense of perhaps the British coalition government? (Apparently it's in use!) Will anyone ever have need of a collective noun for Jezebels?). Smurrayinchester (talk) 13:12, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Most of these fancy collective nouns floating around the Internet are artificial words that amateur philologists pull out of their asses in order to look “cool”. Most of them have never been used and will probably never be used. If you think the ones listed at the page are bad, look at the edit histories. For this reason it is important that the validity of collectives added to these appendices (and to the mainspace) isn’t taken for granted.
On topic: Appendix:English collective nouns looks redundant to Category:English collective nouns, so I favour deleting it. But I think Appendix:Glossary of collective nouns by subject is useful to keep around due to its presentation advantages over a category page. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:50, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Category:English collective nouns now (years later) contains many terms that do not fit the "a <collective noun> of <noun>s" pattern, such as 99 percent and Cornish. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 00:17, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Added Appendix:Glossary of collective nouns by collective term - the sorting issues that led to these appendices being split would be better resolved with a sortable table). Smurrayinchester (talk) 10:55, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Merge all three appendices into one appendix (which will need considerable cleanup). - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 00:26, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category:en:Exonyms -> Category:English exonyms[edit]

Per Wiktionary:Votes/2011-04/Lexical categories, move:

Rationale: This makes these categories nominally consistent with all other categories that describe the words ("Category:English blablabla") rather than their meanings ("Category:en:blablabla"), such as all categories listed in Category:English terms by etymology.

In fact, I believe Category:English exonyms should be a subcategory of Category:English terms by etymology.

It's interesting to note that Category:English terms by etymology was once called Category:en:Etymology before it was moved multiple times. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 23:22, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Being an exonym is not a matter of how a word was created. In fact, terms often don't start off as exonyms, but become exonyms as the languages diverge and evolve. So it's not appropriate to put it under etymology. —CodeCat 00:11, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 03:11, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This would be a good bot job. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 00:39, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

*Oppose: Exonyms should remain as a category and English exonyms should be a subcategory of it. Purplebackpack89 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I nominated specifically "Category:en:Exonyms -> Category:English exonyms", you mentioned "English exonyms should be [] ", so I don't see how this would work as an oppose vote to my nomination. I don't suppose you wanted the category to remain named "Category:en:Exonyms", right?
In any event, the format that other umbrella categories use according to Wiktionary:Votes/2011-04/Lexical categories is "Category:Exonyms by language" -> "Category:English exonyms". Like "Category:Nouns by language" -> "Category:English nouns". --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:16, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, sorry, I missed the "en" in there. Retracting my vote. Purplebackpack89 00:22, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, thank you. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:26, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This should not be controversial, but it's wise to check. DCDuring TALK 23:32, 14 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Continuation of #Category:en:Names into Category:English names[edit]

Reviving the earlier discussion, I'm still bothered by the fact that we have two different categories for names. But the previous discussion also made it clear that it's not as easy as just merging them.

CodeCat 00:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, what I am going to say is somewhat off-topic and maybe I'm minority on that, but I would not mind using the naming system "Category:English xxxx" for all topical categories: Category:en:Chess -> English terms related to chess. (or any better name along those lines) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:59, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Category:en:Transliteration of personal names" could be renamed to "Category:English names transliterated from other languages", I suppose. What's the matter with the demonyms category? It contains demonyms, as expected. Would it be better titled "English demonyms", on the model of "English phrases"? - -sche (discuss) 06:02, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Category:en:Transliteration of personal names" would be better named "English transliterations of (foreigners') personal names". Notice the existence of e.g.Category:Latvian transliterations of English names.‎ Names of non-English speakers are not English names. I agree with CodeCat that place names belong to topic categories.--Makaokalani (talk) 14:32, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the old discussion if anyone wants to read it. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 15:58, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Category:en:Place names was deleted by Equinox in 2017-05 because it was empty. Category:Transliteration of personal names (and its language-specific subcategories) were moved to Category:Foreign personal names in 2021-09 with the help of WingerBot. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 16:14, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

December 2015[edit]

Template:rfe and Template:rfelite[edit]

Both of these templates serve the same purpose, the only difference is in looks. So I think they should be merged. I have no particular preference for which we should keep, just that one of them should go. —CodeCat 23:21, 9 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Provisional oppose, although I may change my mind; I'd like to see what @DCDuring, DTLHS think. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They should either be merged (with one redirecting to the other), or kept. Since I generally don't like templates being needlessly consolidated, I'll say keep Purplebackpack89 23:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really care. DTLHS (talk) 23:43, 9 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Looks is a personal preference, so one of them should go. The "lite" one doesn't let an editor add reasoning (and I can only imagine reasoning awkwardly tacked onto the end of the notice), so I think that {{rfelite}} should be deleted. —suzukaze (tc) 23:46, 9 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@suzukaze-c Comments can always be added directly to the etymology section or as an unnamed parameter in any template that does not rely on such parameters for its functionality. DCDuring TALK 00:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any particular benefit to tidying by combining them. The templates differ by their look. That is not an insignificant consideration to whatever normal users may use our work, should there be any.
I think all of the big-display-box templates are hideous and potentially distracting to normal users. I'd bet that most contributions of etymologies are generated by contributors (not normal users) who find the entries by means other than noticing {{rfe}} (or {{rfelite}}). The same is probably true of {{rfi}} and {{rfc}}. I'd further bet that the main function these boxes serve is to steer a contributor to the particular part of the entry that needs work. A big box seems unnecessary for that function. In contrast, in the cases of {{rfd}} and {{rfv}}, arguably the distraction is intentional and constructive, as it serves as a warning to users that there may be something wrong with the definitions or that they might want to participate in the discussion about them.
I'd love to hear the thoughts of others, 1., on the effect of the differing displays on different types of normal users and, 2., on whether we still have the prospect of gaining such users in sufficient numbers to be of any concern to us. DCDuring TALK 00:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think for clarity I'd merge {{etystub}} into {{rfelite}} rather than the other way around. But we should have both etystub and rfelite as they do the exact same job. {{rfe}} should really only be used when no etymology is present because it doesn't interact well with either text that's before it or after it. But it is more obviously visible, being in a box. Renard Migrant (talk) 20:11, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
{{etystub}} has a different message. It allows for the possibility that the etymology exists but is incomplete. Neither of the other two do that. Perhaps at least one of the two others should have a switch that changed the display to indicate the etymology, though present, is incomplete. The problem with not having such wording is that some new contributor could view {{rfe}} or {{rfelite}} as not having been removed when the etymology was added. Converting {{etystub}} to have a more modest appearance like that of {{rfelite}} would be an improvement. The big-box look it now has is enough to make me occasionally miss the presence of the stub etymology that is there. DCDuring TALK 22:41, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think the nuance is much too small to be worth keeping. Just change it to 'absent or incomplete' and you're done. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:03, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Per Wiktionary:Beer parlour#October 2019, {{rfe}} is now inline by default, and {{rfelite}} is deprecated. Benwing2 (talk) 02:33, 25 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Checking in a month later, I noticed only two entries using the now-deprecated template, which I cleaned up. I suppose the intention is to delete it at some point? - -sche (discuss) 05:03, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@-sche The only thing keeping this discussion open is that {{rfelite}} has not been deleted yet. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 18:24, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Ok, I've deleted it. - -sche (discuss) 23:28, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

January 2016[edit]

Appendix:Word formation verb -en noun -ness[edit]

Bad title. Need the word English in there, and something more 'fluent'. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:23, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As creator of this apx, I totally agree. Just wish I could think of something !! :-/ -- ALGRIF talk 15:22, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hows about Appendix:English adjectives with derived terms in -en and -ness? Also, I think the derivation "strong" => "strengthen" and "strongness" may not be accurate and, in any event, is the weakest exemplar. DCDuring TALK 16:31, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support DCDuring's proposal. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 20:37, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Resurrected out of the archives; anyone have ideas for a better title? - -sche (discuss) 04:15, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the purpose of this appendix. There doesn't seem to have any special relationship between verbs in -en and nouns in -ness. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:17, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Appendix:Swadesh lists for Austronesian languages etc[edit]

and Appendix:Swadesh for Malayo-Polynesian languages - Appendix:Cognate sets for Austronesian languages

These overlap a lot, and should be merged in some way. -- Prince Kassad 17:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Added another one I found. -- Prince Kassad 10:12, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resurrected out of the archives. - -sche (discuss) 04:20, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

February 2016[edit]

have it[edit]

2 definitions: "to have died" and "to be beyond repair"

These meanings only exist for have had it, which doesn't and should have these. The translations need to be moved and checked as well. DCDuring TALK 15:27, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

caught with one's hand in the cookie jar[edit]

Move to hand in the cookie jar (now a redirect to this), which is included in many more expressions than this one, eg have one's hand in the cookie jar, to catch someone with their hand in the cookie jar. I would be happy to add redirects and for all possessive determiners and for the various verb forms of catch and have and usage examples for a selection of these and perhaps others, such as put and keep. DCDuring TALK 21:35, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As it is now a search for "catch with his hand in the cookie jar" does not find this entry. DCDuring TALK 21:37, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 03:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've created hand on the cookie jar, but was forced to used a non-gloss definition because I could not find a suitable gloss. Accordingly I did not delete the entries that use the expression. I'd welcome comments or other help. DCDuring (talk) 18:12, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It appears DCDuring meant hand in the cookie jar. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 18:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Thanks. DCDuring (talk) 22:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

in lieu[edit]

I didn't find any use at COCA of this except in in lieu of (1,045) and (Canada, legal) pay in lieu (2). There was one use of in lieu thereof. The other seven instances included the name of a band, an incomplete spoken utterance, and similar.

I suspect that the translations belong at in lieu of or perhaps at fr.wikt. DCDuring TALK 04:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Move to in lieu of per nom. - -sche (discuss) 05:13, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There are hits at Google Books for in lieu appointment]. Note that not all of them actually contain the phrase: some have "... in lieu. Appointment...". The same is true of in lieu payment], though it seems to be more common with a hyphen. It may not be that common, but in lieu does seem to be used as a legal/accounting term without any form of "of". Chuck Entz (talk) 06:33, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I see. That would merit a reworking of the entry for in lieu, which looks to be limited to legal contexts. It seems that in lieu is often an abbreviation of in lieu of (something obvious from the context). In its prepositive attributive use "substitute" seems like a synonym or definition. DCDuring TALK 15:54, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There's also a day off in lieu [2] although I've no idea whether this would be better treated by a separate entry or an additional sense ("substitute") at in lieu. --Droigheann (talk) 14:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To me it seems that the uses that are not in lieu of are derived from use of in lieu of in a legal context including labor law. They all seems to have become completely conventionalized in meaning – therefore dictionary-worthy – though sometimes the meaning might turn out to be restricted to a specific context. I think this might work presented as a non-gloss definition with each of the most typical applications illustrated with a usage example and possible with a subsense. DCDuring TALK 17:12, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

March 2016[edit]

Linear A[edit]

Strangely enough we have a language code for Linear A [lab], even though Linear A is a writing system and not a language. I have no idea why it was encoded or why we have it. -- Liliana 15:01, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's very odd. The script code for Linear A is "Lina"; the language code for Minoan is "omn"; but there's also a language code "lab" for a language called "Linear A". I have no idea what ISO and SIL were thinking, but I'm in favor of deleting "lab" from our modules. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:43, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'll bet their thinking is that the language written in the script may be an unknown language, which would be consistent with w:Linear A. There do seem to be a large number of hypotheses about Linear A, nearly on the same order as the total number of recorded instances of the script. DCDuring TALK 18:33, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Reading Minoan language more carefully, I see that it's written in both Cretan hieroglyphs and Linear A, but since neither writing system has been deciphered, it isn't known whether it's the same language in two writing systems or two different languages. So maybe "omn" means Minoan in Cretan hieroglyphs and "lab" means Minoan in Linear A, and they may or may not refer to the same language. Given that the language is unknown and undeciphered, I wonder why we have one Minoan lemma: kuro. How do we know this word was pronounced "kuro" and that it means "total"? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:25, 6 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's in the wrong script anyway (it was added before Unicode covered Linear A), but afaik Linear A can be read simply by using the known values for Linear B syllables, which are visually similar. This word is always found at the end of lists, followed by a number, so the meaning was easy to figure out. -- Liliana 10:39, 6 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

July 2016[edit]

Balkan Gagauz Turkish[edit]

I see no evidence that this exists as a separate language, and move that it be merged with tr. The literature which references it seems to describe the dialect of Turkish which may be spoken by Gagauz people in the Balkan Peninsula. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:17, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia, citing Ethnologue, insists that Balkan Gagauz Turkish, Gagauz, and Turkish are all separate, and a few sources do seem to take that view, e.g. Cem Keskin, Subject agreement-dependency of accusative case in Turkish, or, Jump-starting grammatical machinery (2009) speaks of "Balkan Gagauz Turkish, Gagauz, Turkish, Iraqi Turkmen, North and South Azerbaijani, Salchuq, Aynallu, Qashqay, Khorasan Turkic, Turkmen, Oghuz Uzbek, Afshar, and possibly Crimean Tatar". Other references speak of Balkan Gagauz Turkish as a variety of Gagauz, e.g. James Minahan's Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations says "The Gagauz speak a Turkic language [...] also called Balkan Gagauz or Balkan Turkic, [which] is spoken in two major dialects, Central and Southern, with the former the basis of the literary language. Other dialects [include] Maritime Gagauz" (which comports with w:Gagauz's list of its dialects). Matthias Brenzinger's Language Diversity Endangered also treats Balkan Gagauz "or slightly misleading, Balkan Turkic" in his entry on Gagauz, but says it that the Balkan "varieties might deserve the status of outlying languages but very little information is available about them." (A few generalist references seem to subsume all gag into tr.) I would leave them all separate, pending more conclusive evidence that they should be merged. - -sche (discuss) 23:58, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think there's some confusion about what exactly we're talking about, and whether it's Gagauz or Turkish. Just because they use the term "Balkan Gagauz Turkish" doesn't mean that they're referring to the language with ISO 639-3 code bgx. When I look at who's citing the references listed for bgx at Glottolog, Manević (the reference for its classification) is cited in papers clearly talking about the dialects of tr. These are the only actual words attributed to this lect that I can find. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:33, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Tropylium, on the subject of Turkic languages spoken in Europe, do you know anything about this one, and about its differences or similarity to Gagauz and standard Turkish? - -sche (discuss) 01:08, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not previously familiar with this dispute, but here are a few handbooks on the topic:
  • Menges in The Turkic Languages and Peoples has the following slightly complicated quote (p. 11): "The Turkic languages spoken farthest west are the Balkanic dialects of Osman and Gagauz in Bosnia, Bulgaria and Macedonia. These seem to form two groups, one of possibly pre-Osman origin, and a later Osman one. To the former belong the Gaǯaly in Deli-Orman (Eastern Bulgaria), who, according to V. A. Moškov, are descended from the Päčänäg, Uz, and Torci (?), the Surguč, numbering about 7000 people in the district (vilājät) of Edirnä, who call themselves Gagauz. In Moškov's opinion, they, too, go back to the Päčänägs (?) and the Macedonian Gagauz; they number ca. 4000 people in southeastern Macedonia." — It seems clear that some group(s) corresponding to "Balkan Gagauz" is being identified here, but I am not even sure how to parse the sentence structure; e.g. are "Uz" and "Torci" some of the pre-Osman Turkic groups, or some of the alleged ancestors of the Gaǯaly? ("Osman" is, of course, Turkish.)
  • Hendrik Boeschoten in a classificatory chapter in Routledge's The Turkic Languages mentions that "a few speakers [of Gagauz] in northern Bulgaria, Romania and Greece, adhere to the Orthodox faith, and have their own history." This again seems to refer to "Balkan Gagauz", but with no indication of being its own language.
So far I would gather from this that "Balkan Gagauz" is at most a sister language of "non-Balkan Gagauz", and perhaps indeed just a different dialect group (perhaps one whose features are not reflected in written standard Gagauz). But the Manević 1954 paper would be more informative on this topic, if anyone wants to hunt it down. --Tropylium (talk) 11:55, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think Balkan Gagauz should be merged with gag, especially since it contains no entries. The few terms that would be specific for Gagauz spoken outside of the traditional Gagauz area in Moldova/Romania/Bulgaria can be dealt with within gag entries. The only thing is that some etymologies of other Turkic languages sometimes refer to Balkan Gagauz instead of Gagauz, because editors didn't know the difference between two. Otherwise I don't see any problems with merging them two.
On the other hand, Gagauz should definitely NOT be merged with Turkish, that is pretty obvious to me.Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 05:09, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Metaknowledge This is a hard question, I can offer only guesswork.
I can't find any good maps for the distribution of Gagauz and (Muslim) Turks proper in the Balkans, most don't show Balkan Gagauz at all although we know they exist at least in Bulgaria and Macedonia.
It seems that they are not easily separated geographically from Muslim Turks although they presumably live in different localities. I'm guessing this means that their languages ("Balkan Gagauz Turkish" and "Rumelian Turkish") could be the same, although maybe only the latter call their language "Turkish", so I guess that they (would?) use Standard Turkish in education and administration.
This would be a good argument to merge Balkan Gagauz into Turkish, except that this paper shows that Balkan Turkic (if this really is a single language) is quite distinct from Anatolian Turkish and perhaps worth considering a different language. Baskakov also considers Balkan Turkish and (Moldovan) Gagauz to form a clade within Oghuz and Anatolian Turkish and Azerbaijani to form another. Crom daba (talk) 21:35, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Anylai, can you find anything in Turkish on the possible differences between Balkan Gagauz and Rumelian Turkish? Crom daba (talk) 21:38, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Merge / delete it. The distribution of the name, the way it is “mentioned”, points towards it being a ghost language. The name is not attestable as used by anyone having particular information about it; nobody can add anything under it either in such a situation where it is a content-filled concept for nobody. Its alleged synonyms “Balkan Turkish” and “Rumelian Turkish” show it is just an SOP term for Turkish as spoken on the Balkans respectively Rumelia, i.e. remnant speakers of the Ottoman rule. German Balkantürkisch, distinguished from Türkeitürkisch as a regiolect. Fay Freak (talk) 13:38, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Even more languages without ISO codes, part 6[edit]

This next batch is of languages from lists other than Ethnologue and LinguistList. As before, I've tried to vet them all beforehand, but I will have doubtlessly made some mistakes. NB if you want to find more: I've avoided dealing with most of the Loloish languages, because all the literature seems to be in Chinese. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:54, 6 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Australian languages[edit]

Tasmanian and other[edit]

Northeastern Tasmanian:
  • Northeastern, Pyemmairre language (aus-pye) Yes check.svg Done
    alt names/varieties: Plangermaireener, Plangamerina, Cape Portland, Ben Lomond, Pipers River
  • North Midlands, Tyerrernotepanner language (aus-tye) — Bowern considers this a dialect; perhaps we should just trust her
    now has an ISO code which should be added instead, see BP shortly - -sche (discuss) 04:27, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lhotsky/Blackhouse Tasmanian language (aus-lbt) — the worst name in Bowern's set!
    I'm not sure... the very language is "reconstructed" by Bowern on the assumption that three wordlists (of which only two make it into the name) attest the same language, although apparently none of the three bothered to name the language. The chance of someone "would run across [a word in] it and want to know what it means" seems nonexistent. If we wanted to host the wordlists, we could do that in an appendix or on Wikisource. - -sche (discuss) 16:09, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Bowern's methods are scientific; but I would feel better if more than one scholar was saying there was one language in this set of wordlists, the way that for e.g. Port Sorrell, Dixon & Crowley and Glottolog agree that there is a unit/lect there. - -sche (discuss) 16:55, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
and what of "Norman Tasmanian"? - -sche (discuss)
  • Here is another language we might need a code for: Ma(') Pnaan (poz-map?), also known by the exonyms Punan Malinau and Punan Segah, a language of Borneo / East Kalimantan, summarized by Antonia Soriente here and elsewhere. Compare the other things listed at Punan language. - -sche (discuss) 05:21, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Maridan [zmd], Maridjabin [zmj], Marimanindji [zmm], Maringarr [zmt], Marithiel [mfr], Mariyedi [zmy], Marti Ke [zmg]: should these be merged? References speak of a singular Marrithiyel language. - -sche (discuss) 21:30, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

August 2016[edit]

Some more missing American languages[edit]

Here are a few more North American languages for which we could add codes:

  • Akokisa (nai-ako). WP says it is attested certainly in two words in Spanish records (Yegsa "Spaniard[s]", which Swanton suggests is similar to Atakapa yik "trade" + ica[k] "people"; and the female name Quiselpoo), and possibly in more words in a wordlist by Jean Béranger in 1721 (if the wordlist is not some other language).
  • Algonquian–Basque pidgin (crp-abp). Wikipedia has a sample. The Atlas of Languages of Intercultural Communication, citing Bakker, says it was spoken from at least 1580 (and perhaps as early as 1530s) through 1635, and "only a few phrases and less than 30 words attributable to Basque were written down" (though apparently more words, attributable to other sources, were also recorded).
  • Guachichil (Cuauchichil, Quauhchichitl, Chichimeca) (nai-gch or, if Guachí is added as sai-gch, perhaps nai-gcl to prevent the two similarly-named lects from being mixed up by only typoing the initial n vs s), apparently sparsely attested.
  • Concho (nai-cnc). The Handbook of North American Indians, volume 10, says "three words of Concho [...] were recorded in 1581 [and] look like they may be [...] Uto-Aztecan".
  • Jumano (Humano, Jumana, Xumana, Chouman, Zumana, Zuma, Suma, and Yuma) (nai-jmn). The Handbook says "It has been established that the Jumano and Suma spoke the same language. Three words have been recorded" of it.

and from South America:

  • Peba / Peva (sai-peb), said by Erben to more properly by called Nijamvo, Nixamvo. Spoken in "the department of Loreto" in Peru. Attested in wordlists by Erben and Castelnau, which Loukotka provides, and which disagree with each other substantially: munyo (Erben) / money (Castelnau) "canoe, small boat"; nero (E) / yuna (C) "demon"; nebi (E) / nemey (C) "jaguar"; teki (E) / tomen-lay (C) "one", manaxo (E) / nomoira (C) "two"; etc. I would even consider that one might not be the same language as the other... what's with these languages that survive in disparate wordlists? lol.
  • possibly Saynáwa: fr.Wikt grants a code to this variety of Yaminawá language, described here (see also [3]).

- -sche (discuss) 04:04, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support all except possibly Akokisa. I think it's a dialect of Atakapa, and that the wordlist is very likely not being linked correctly. That said, it's so few words, that there's no real reason not to accept it as a separate language, just to be conservative about it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:08, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Good point about Akokisa. (I am reminded that you had mentioned its dialectness earlier; sorry I forgot!) The wordlist, labelled only with a tribal name per WP, is possibly plain Atakapa, but Yegsa is supposedly recorded as specifically Akokisa; OTOH that doesn't rule out that Akokisa is a dialect. Indeed, M. Mithun's Languages of Native North America treats as dialects Akokisa, Eastern ("the most divergent, [...] known from a list of 287 entries") and Western ("the best documented. Gatschet recorded around 2000 words and sentences, as well as texts [...] Swanton recorded a few Western forms", all published in 1932 in a dictionary). I suppose the benefit to treating it as a dialect would be that we could context-label Yegsa and Quiselpoo as {{lb|aqp|Akokisa}} and then Béranger's forms as {{lb|aqp|possibly|Akokisa}} without needing to agonize over which header to put them under. - -sche (discuss) 15:31, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

September 2016[edit]


As can be seen at w:Nkore-Kiga language, Kiga [cgg] should definitely be merged into Nyankore [nyn]. Unfortunately, this might require a rename to something that is both hyphenated and considerably less common that just plain "Nyankore" (though that is, strictly speaking, merely the name of the main dialect). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:21, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure. WP suggests the merger was politically motivated, but many reference works do follow it. Ethnologue says there as "Lexical similarity [of] 78%–96% between Nyankore, Nyoro [nyo], and their dialects; 84%–94% with Chiga [cgg], [...and] 81% with Zinza [zin]" (Kiga, meanwhile, is said to be "77% [similar] with Nyoro [nyo]"), as if to suggest nyn is about as similar to cgg as to nyo, and indeed many early references treat Nkore-Nyoro like one language, where later references instead prefer to group Nkore with Kiga. Ethnologue mentions that some authorities merge all three into a "Standardized form of the western varieties (Nyankore-Chiga and Nyoro-Tooro) [...] called Runyakitara [...] taught at the University and used in internet browsing, but [it] is a hybrid language." (For comparison, Ethnologue says English has 60% lexical similarity to German.) - -sche (discuss) 00:16, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Itneg lects[edit]

See w:Itneg language. All the dialects have different codes, but we really should give them a single code and unify them. I came across this problem with the entry balaua, which means "spirit house" (but I can't tell in which specific dialect). It's also known as Tinggian (with various different spellings), and this may be a better name for it than Itneg. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:09, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

October 2016[edit]

Merge Category:Chinese hanzi and Category:Chinese Han characters[edit]

What distinguishes these two? —suzukaze (tc) 03:31, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If there is no meaningful difference between these, I propose keeping Category:Chinese Han characters as it is managed by {{poscatboiler}} and merging Category:Chinese hanzi into it. —suzukaze (tc) 04:17, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Wyang, Atitarev, is there a difference between Category:Chinese hanzi and Category:Chinese Han characters, or can Category:Chinese hanzi be merged into Category:Chinese Han characters as suzukaze proposes? - -sche (discuss) 00:27, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
They can be merged, IMO. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:52, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(reviving this discussion after almost three years) Merge per Suzukaze-c's proposal above. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be no notable difference between the two categories so they should be merged I guess. Ffffrr (talk) 21:40, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move template:lang[edit]

to something more sensible like "template:text"? lang could be used to display the language name from a language code whenever "there is no other template (like {{derived}} or {{cog}}) that can be used instead". --Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 14:09, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Giorgi Eufshi: Or {{textlang}}? That'd make it very clear. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:12, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It also has 'face' and 'sc' parameters. Maybe {{textlangfacesc}}? --Dixtosa (talk) 15:34, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Dixtosa: (There's no need to be facetious; I responded, didn't I?) {{text}} is fine. What does the |face= parameter do? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:38, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I was just making a point. hope no feelings were hurt )) My implicit question was: why do you feel lang suffix is necessary? It's not like this is the only template that can work with languages. --Dixtosa (talk) 16:59, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Dixtosa: I just figured that it made its use clearer, that it's a template that marks the language of the text it encloses. But I really don't mind what it's called. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:47, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Question: I have used {{lang}} on talk pages. Would a bot convert these instances to whatever template name is chosen as a replacement for {{lang}}? — Eru·tuon 17:00, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should not be moved since its equivalent on Wikipedia has this name. —suzukaze (tc) 07:30, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion debate[edit]

We could also try orphaning it instead. I believe there are many uses that could be replaced with other templates. Try orphaning it and see how far we get. —CodeCat 14:13, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I use this template frequently for the text of quotations, which helps screen readers know what language the text is in; also, it's needed for display purposes sometimes, like wrapping text in {{lang|de|sc=Latf|…}} to display German text in Fraktur. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 21:11, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We have other templates for quotations, that are more suited to that specific task. —CodeCat 21:16, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@CodeCat: I don't think I'm aware of them. Could you link to them, please? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 09:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
{{quote}} and various other templates beginning with "quote". —CodeCat 14:13, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And to mention a word without linking to it, you can put it in the 3rd positional parameter of {{l}} or {{m}}, thus: {{m|de||dass}}. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Aɴɢʀ: Thanks; I was already aware of and do already use {{m}} and {{l}} like that.
@CodeCat: I frequently find those templates to be flawed; they can't handle the quotation of works with unusual internal structure (Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, with its hierarchically organised propositions, is a modern example). Unless there is something that can perform the function of {{lang}} without the problems of the quote- templates, I shall have to oppose this orphaning. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:31, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Can you give an example? —CodeCat 14:32, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@CodeCat: Sorry, an example of what? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:34, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
An example of a case where no other existing template works. —CodeCat 14:35, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@CodeCat: I confess to not being very experienced with those templates (the bad experiences I've had have been other editors trying to shoehorn existing, manually-written citations into them). Maybe one or another of those quote- templates could cope with the TLP; I wouldn't know. Could any of them cope with the modern translation of a scholion by one ancient author, commenting on the work of another ancient author, appearing in a volume of translated works of ancient authors (writing on a common theme), with the texts emended by different modern emendators, the volume as a whole edited by a modern editor, and that volume constituting one part of a series which itself has a different modern general editor? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:12, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That has nothing to do with what either {{quote}} or {{lang}} does. I suggest you familiarize yourself with these templates before commenting further. DTLHS (talk) 15:24, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@DTLHS: My mistake. I thought CodeCat was only referring to {{quote-book}} and the like. I was not aware of the existence of {{quote}}. @CodeCat: My apologies; I misread what you wrote. {{quote}} is great; I'll use that instead of {{lang}} from now on. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:48, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

carry a torch for[edit]

Move to carry a torch, making sure that the definition is appropriate for usage both with and without for. A redirect from [[carry a torch for]] to carry a torch would be fine with me. At present the redirect goes the other way. DCDuring TALK 14:40, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Attestation of use without for is at Citations:carry a torch for. DCDuring TALK 15:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 05:56, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Category:English and other topical categories about languages[edit]

It would be nice to have a name that makes it more obvious that this is a topical category. How about Category:English linguistics, and for the larger languages subcategories like Category:English grammar, Category:English orthography, etc.? I’m open to suggestions, as some people don’t like including things relating to writing or standardised language under linguistics. Another issue is that the hub categories (without language codes) would follow the same format as non-topical categories, but I still think it’s clearer than just English.

And how about parent categories for language families, like Category:Germanic linguistics? — Ungoliant (falai) 20:34, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol support vote.svg Support per nom. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 22:57, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

November 2016[edit]

Paraguayan Guaraní [gug][edit]

I just noticed that we have this for some reason. Guaraní is a dialect continuum that is quite extensive, both in inter-dialect differences and in geography, and certain varieties have been heavily influenced by Spanish or Portuguese. That said, our Guaraní [gn] content is, as far as I can tell, pretty much entirely on Paraguayan Guaraní, which for some reason has a different code, [gug]. My attention was brought to this by User:Guillermo2149 changing L2 headers (I have not reverted his edits, but they do cause header-code mismatch). We could try splitting up the Guaraní dialects, but it would hard to choose cutoffs and would definitely confuse potential editors, of which we have had more since Duolingo released a Guaraní course. I think the best choice is to merge [gug] into [gn] and mark words extensively for which dialects or countries they are used in. @-scheΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:29, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Symbol support vote.svg Support [gn] and [grn] are the codes of the macrolanguage, [gug] is the code for the specific dialect spoken in Paraguay, also, until now, I haven't found any [gn] lemma to be out of [gug]. --Guillermo2149 (talk) 01:52, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support. — Ungoliant (falai) 11:00, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Symbol support vote.svg Support merging gn and gug. - -sche (discuss) 14:33, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Guillermo2149, Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV, -sche, Angr: I see now that there are three more Guaraní dialect codes that we have: Mbyá Guaraní [gun], Chiripá [nhd], and Western Bolivian Guaraní [gnw]. I presume that we should merge these into [gn] as well, but the case is arguably less clear given that in our current state, all our [gn] lemmas are really [gug]. What do you all think? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:51, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I stick by my motto, "When in doubt, merge". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:53, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I think we should actually merge [gn] into [gug] and not viceversa. By the way, [gn] is the only one that should be merged, [gun] has similar and some equal words but the language is very different, and [nhd] is similar and very close to [gug] but it's slightly different and always confused with [gug] --Guillermo2149 (talk) 00:37, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Don't forget there's also [gui] and apparently also [tpj]. - -sche (discuss) 04:28, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Westrobothnian lemmas[edit]

See also: Wiktionary:Information_desk#Category:Westrobothnian_lemmas_-_Our_idiosyncrasy.3F

User:Korn posted this to rfv as a way of requesting verification of all the Westrobothnian entries. The justification was that the orthography doesn't seem to be one that has been actually used for the language. Given that the terms seem, for the most part, to be real and added in good faith, I would like to see if we can figure out a way to move them to the appropriate spellings rather than deleting them as unattested. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:02, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Chuck described the situation correctly as I see it. It's about spelling, not terms. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 20:01, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

December 2016[edit]

Moving Finno-Ugric families to Uralic families[edit]

We don't recognize Finno-Ugric as a valid family; just Uralic. Hence urj is a valid code, but fiu isn't. Nevertheless, we're using fiu- as the prefix for four branches: fiu-fin for Finnic, fiu-mdv for Mordvinic, fiu-prm for Permic, and fiu-ugr for Ugric. I propose we use urj- for these instead, thus moving as follows:

  • fiu-finurj-fin
  • fiu-mdvurj-mdv
  • fiu-prmurj-prm
  • fiu-ugrurj-ugr

At the same time, we should move the codes for the corresponding protolanguages:

  • fiu-fin-prourj-fin-pro
  • fiu-mdv-prourj-mdv-pro
  • fiu-prm-prourj-prm-pro
  • fiu-ugr-prourj-ugr-pro

as well as the code for the etymology-only lect Proto-Finno-Permic:

  • fiu-fpr-prourj-fpr-pro

I suppose we can keep fiu-pro as an etymology-only variant of urj-pro if it's important. What do others think? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:29, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That seems like a lot of disruption for a small theoretical benefit: we've always used codes like aus, cau, nai and sai that we don't recognize as families for making exception codes, so it's not a huge violation of our naming logic. In this case, though, it looks to me like we don't recognize fiu more because it's too much like urj, not because it's invalid, per se (though I don't know a lot on the subject). We do have gmw-fri rather than gem-fri, for instance. Of course, I'd rather follow those who actually work in this area- especially @Tropylium. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:59, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have no opinion on moving around family codes either way (it doesn't seem they actually come up much, whatever they are), but if we start moving around the proto-language codes, I would like to suggest simple two-part codes. Proto-Samic and Proto-Samoyedic are already smi-pro and syd-pro, so is there any reason we couldn't make do with e.g. fin-pro, fpr-pro, ugr-pro etc.?
Also, as long as we're on this topic, at some point we are going to need the following:
  • Proto-Mansi: (ugr-/urj-?)mns-pro
  • Proto-Khanty: (ugr-/urj-?)kca-pro
  • Proto-Selkup: (ugr-/urj-?)sel-pro
No rush though, since so far we do not even have separate codes for their subdivisions. The only distinction that comes up in practice is distinguishing Northern Khanty from Eastern Khanty (Mansi and Selkup only have one main variety that is not extinct or nearly extinct). --Tropylium (talk) 10:53, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is, actually, a reason: our exception codes are designed to avoid conflict with the ISO 639 codes, so they start with an existing ISO 639 code or a code in the qaa-qtz range set aside by ISO 639 for private use. fin is one of the codes for the Finnish language. fpr and ugr are apparently unassigned- for now. As for the three proto-language codes, those don't need a family prefix because they already start with an ISO 639 code. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:06, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The only codes in the qaa-qtz range we actually use are qfa as a prefix for otherwise unclassified families and qot for Sahaptin (a macrolanguage that wasn't given an ISO code of its own), right? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:55, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Right. And I didn't notice that we used qot although it is not an ISO code; it seems we followed Linguist List in using it. For consistency, I suggest changing it to fit our usual scheme, so nai-spt or similar (nai-shp is already in use as the family code). - -sche (discuss) 05:10, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support, for consistency. fiu is different from nai, because fiu is [a supposedly genetic grouping which is] agreed to be encompassed by a higher-level genetic family which also has an ISO code (urj), and that code can be used if we drop fiu. nai and sai are placeholders rather than genetic groupings, and they're useful ones, because If we dropped them we'd had to recode everything as qfa- (and might conceivably run out of recognizable/mnemonic codes at that point). - -sche (discuss) 05:10, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support per -sche, both the main issue being suggested here, as well as recoding Sahaptin. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:57, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've recoded Sahaptin and all the Finno-Ugric lects except fiu-fin / fiu-fin-pro which requires moving a lot of categories, which I will get to later. - -sche (discuss) 17:20, 8 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Now there are lots of module errors in Cat:E as a result of these language code changes. It might be easiest to fix them by bot. @DTLHS, what do you think? — Eru·tuon 22:45, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can do. DTLHS (talk) 23:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Erutuon I've done a bunch of them- I think the reconstructions should be fixed by hand. DTLHS (talk) 23:22, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@DTLHS: Three incorrect language codes remain, I think: fiu-ugr, fiu-fpr-pro, urj-fin-pro. I couldn't figure out what fiu-fpr-pro should be; it seems to refer to Proto-Finno-Permic, but I searched various language data modules and didn't find a match. Is there someone who can look through and fix the remaining module errors that relate to incorrect language codes? @Tropylium, @Angr, @-sche? — Eru·tuon 04:52, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Proto-Finno-Permic is an etymology-only language (and a kind of a legacy concept) that we encode as a variety of Proto-Uralic, if that helps. --Tropylium (talk) 13:58, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The categories were easy to deal with: you just change the {{derivcatboiler}} to {{auto cat}} and the template plugs in the correct language code, if it exists. That also makes it a quick way to check whether there is a correct language code. by the time I finished that, there were only a dozen or so entries left in CAT:E due to everyone else's efforts, so I finished off the remainder by hand. It would have been easier if there hadn't been hundreds of other module errors cluttering up CAT:E- yet another reason for you to be more careful. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:10, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I apologise for not catching and fixing those uses at the time I renamed the codes. I searched all pages on the site for each of the old codes, and some pages turned up [including pages where the codes were used inside some templates, and I fixed those pages], so I forgot to also do an "insource:" search to catch other uses inside templates like {{m}}. We so rarely change language codes compared to changing language names. - -sche (discuss) 23:36, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

January 2017[edit]

rubber-chicken dinner[edit]

to rubber chicken. Other dictionaries in OneLook have rubber chicken, not rubber-chicken dinner. There are abundant other collocations of rubber chicken both as a substantive and in attributive use. One common one is "rubber-chicken circuit". Examples of other nouns following rubber-chicken are lunch, banquet, affair, meal, fundraiser. Substantive use can be found in usages such as: Fortunately we'll spare everyone the rubber chicken and the speeches and simply acknowledge the guidance and vision of the world's best agent/coach/editor.

Rubber chicken is not identical to rubber (rubbery) + chicken either, though that is its origin. It specifically refers to the kind of organizational meals-with-speeches that crowd a politician's schedule, but also characterize conventions, off-site meetings, etc. DCDuring TALK 13:39, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Merger into Scandoromani[edit]

I propose that the Para-Romani lects Traveller Norwegian, Traveller Danish and Tavringer Swedish (rmg, rmd and rmu) be merged into Scandoromani. TN, TD and TS are almost identical, mostly differing in spelling (e.g. tjuro (Sweden) vs. kjuro (Norway) meaning 'knife', gräj vs. grei 'horse' etc.). WP treats them as variants of Scandoromani. My langcode proposal could be rom-sca, or maybe we could just use rmg, which already has a category. -- 20:19, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Languages by country[edit]

Upmerge If all of these subcategories were emptied, the parent category would only have a little over 200 entries, which is very navigable and also what one would expect from the name of the category itself. Categorizing by continent isn't really necessary (where does Russia go? Is France in five categories?) —Justin (koavf)TCM 05:57, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Symbol support vote.svg Support, straightforward enough. --Tropylium (talk) 16:27, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support, the official languages could be categorized by country and continent on wikipedia (but it would not make sense on wiktionary), the categorization of languages independently by country and continent without other criteria, however, has no sense at all because they can be spoken in any nation of any continent, as well as in every ocean and even on the international space station (ISS), so a the category "Languages by country" (or more correctly "Languages by continent") have no sense to exist on wiktionary or other wiki-projects. --DelvecchioSimone12 5 96 (talk) 18:25, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support, the category is quite messy as is and it would be more practical to have a category for "Languages by continent" instead. This would allow for tidying up the countries into a list of the six continents (or seven, depending on the continental model) with permanent indigenous residents that would in turn list all recognized countries within the continent in question. 14:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @ That is what this category is though (languages sorted by continent), except that it not named as such. Are you suggesting moving it to Category:Languages by continent? - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 21:55, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Koavf If I understand your proposal correctly it sounds like it would be more suited to WT:RFM. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 21:32, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense. Do you think I should copy/paste it there? —Justin (koavf)TCM 21:35, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Koavf Hey, thanks for the fast response. I think you should cut/paste it into the January 2017 section there. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 21:44, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Good thinking. I'll put it there. —Justin (koavf)TCM 21:45, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

February 2017[edit]

Chinese Pidgin English (cpi)[edit]

This is not a separate language at all, it's just English with different grammar and some loanwords, but other than that it's completely intelligible with standard English. As such, it should be moved to Category:Chinese English. -- Pedrianaplant (talk) 15:19, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's not at all the impression I get from Chinese Pidgin English. It seems to be a distinct language to me, as much as any other English-based pidgin. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:45, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We did delete Hawaiian Pidgin English in the past though (see Template talk:hwc). I don't see how this case is any different. -- Pedrianaplant (talk)
I know we did, but I didn't participate in that discussion (only 3 people did), and I disagree with it too, probably even more strongly than I disagree with merging cpi. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:02, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Basically, this is a terminological problem. There may have been a true pidgin in each of these cases, but it has not been recorded. What is called a pidgin in many descriptive works is instead a dialect of English that is very easy to understand, nothing like the real English-based pidgins and creoles that I have studied. If you look at the actual quotations used to support lemmas in Chinese Pidgin English, you find that it is Chinese English. Support merge, but leave [cpi] as an etymology-only code. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:16, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • At least some texts seem very distinct, to the point of unintelligibility; consider "Joss pidgin man chop chop begin" (Whedon's translator begins chopping things? or "god's businessman begins right away"?). On the other hand, other sentences given by Wikipedia are quite intelligible...and possibly not attestable under the stricter CFI to which English is subject. I'm not sure what to do. (Our short previous discussion also didn't reach a firm resolution.) - -sche (discuss) 17:46, 8 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I mean, I use joss and chop chop in English normally (having grown up in a fairly Chinese environment likely has something to do with that)... and I think that was chosen as an especially extreme example. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:32, 25 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

March 2017[edit]

Appendix:Australian English terms pertaining to money and wealth[edit]

Too much granularity? A merge into Appendix:Australian English vocabulary might be appropriate. Perhaps simply a rename would suffice. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:34, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Merged. - -sche (discuss) 01:15, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Metaknowledge: some of the smaller appendices at Appendix:Australian English vocabulary#See_also could probably also be merged... - -sche (discuss) 01:19, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@-sche: Thanks for pointing those out. From a cursory glance, I would definitely support the merger of animals, body parts, clothing, food and drink, motoring, people, smoking, and the toilet, all into the main appendix. Do you agree? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 14:29, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I don't see why we need so many different appendices.. - -sche (discuss) 21:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've merged Appendix:Australian English terms for body parts into Appendix:Australian English vocabulary. A few of the others (animals, clothing) are in topic categories (Category:en:Animals, Category:en:Clothing). - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 19:22, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

April 2017[edit]

More unattested languages[edit]

The following languages have ISO codes, but those codes should be removed, as there is no linguistic material that can be added to Wiktionary. This list is taken from Wikipedia's list of unattested languages, but I have excluded languages which are not definitively extinct (and thus which may have material become available). If there was any reliable source I could find corroborating the WP article's claim of lack of attestation, it is given after the language. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:15, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Aguano language [aga]
    Unclear if it even existed per The Indigenous Languages of South America: A Comprehensive Guide (Campbell and Grondona).
  • Barbacoas language [bpb] (the Wikipedia article has a discussion of the conflation of this unattested language with Pasto, which needs a code; for clarity, I think this [bpb] should be retired and an exceptional code made explicitly for Pasto)
    Retired, following the ISO, see Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2020/October#2019-2020_ISO_code_changes. Content, if needed for migration to a Pasto code, was m["bpb"] = { "Barbacoas", "Q2669202", "sai-bar", otherNames = {"Pasto"}, scripts = Latn, } - -sche (discuss) 06:23, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Giyug language [giy]
    AIATSIS has the following to say: "According to Ian Green (2007 p.c.), this language probably died before the 1920's and neighbouring groups in the Daly claim it was the language of Peron Island which was linguistically and perhaps culturally distinctive from the nearby mainland societies. Black & Walsh (1989) say that this may or may not have been a dialect of Wadiginy N31." —Μετάknowledge
    The 1992 International Encyclopedia of Linguistics, v. 1, p. 337, says "Giyug: 2 speakers reported in 1981, in the Peron Islands in Anson Bay, southwest of Darwin." The 2003 edition repeats the claim that "2 speakers remain". Wikipedia says it's extinct and unattested, but Glottolog, although having no resources on it, suggests it's not extinct. Might be best to leave it alone for now. - -sche (discuss) 01:13, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mawa language (Nigeria) [wma] (We call this "Mawa", if removed, [mcw] Mahwa (Mawa language (Chad) can be renamed to the evidently more common spelling "Mawa".)
    Removed, and mcw renamed. Glottolog had only one reference to support the existence of Mawa, Temple (1922), which does not even include a section under that header. There may be confusion with the section on the "Marawa", but that does not even mention what language those people speak. (Temple also knows very little about linguistics; while skimming through, I found that Margi (a Chadic language) was said to be similar to the languages of South Africa. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:39, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nagarchal language [nbg]
    Appendix I in The Indo-Aryan Languages records this language as being a subdialect of Dhundari [dhd] and the 1901 Indian Census concurs; this is at odds with its description as an unattested Dravidian language, but the geographical specifications seem to match up.
  • Ngurmbur language [nrx]
    AIATSIS says: "Harvey (PMS 5822) treats Ngomburr as a dialect of Umbukarla N43, but in Harvey (ASEDA 802), it is listed as a separate language." Nicholas Evans confirms in The Non-Pama-Nyungan Languages of Northern Australia that it is unattested.
  • Wasu language [was]
    Unclassified due to its absence of data per The Indigenous Languages of South America: A Comprehensive Guide (Campbell and Grondona).


The Yenish "language" (which we call Yeniche) was given the ISO code yec, despite being clearly not a separate language from German. Instead, it is a jargon which Wikipedia compares to Cockney (which has never had a code) and Polari (which had a code that we deleted in a mostly off-topic discussion). The case of Gayle, which is similar, is still under deliberation at RFM as of now. Most tellingly, German Wiktionary considers this to be German, and once we delete the code, we should make a dialect label for it and add the contents of de:Kategorie:Jenisch to English Wiktionary. @-scheΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:49, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how that's most tellingly; I don't know about the German Wiktionary, but major language works frequently treat things as dialects of their language that outsiders consider separate languages.--Prosfilaes (talk) 03:01, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The (linked) English Wikipedia article even says "It is a jargon rather than an actual language; meaning, it consists of a significant number of unique specialized words, but does not have its own grammar or its own basic vocabulary." Despite the citation needed that follows, that sentence is about accurate, as such this should be deleted. -- Pedrianaplant (talk) 10:53, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(If kept, it should be renamed.)
There are those who argue that Yenish should have recognition (which it indeed gets, in Switzerland) as a separate language. And it can be quite divergent from Standard German, with forms that are as different as those of some of the regiolects we consider distinct. Many examples from Alemannic or Bavarian-speaking areas are better considered Alemannic or Bavarian than Standard German. But then, that's a sign that it is, as some put it, a cant overlaid onto the local grammar, rather than a language per se. Ehh... - -sche (discuss) 03:22, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

rake over the coals and rake someone over the coals[edit]

What's the difference? --Barytonesis (talk) 20:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently (Google n-grams) the term could be used with or without an object. The definition should be somewhat different. An example of use without a direct object is "to rake over the coals of failure". I don't know how to word this in a substitutable way. It seems to mean something like "to belabor (something negative (result, process), obvious from context) as if in reprimand". DCDuring (talk) 15:14, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move entries in CAT:Khitan lemmas to a Khitan script[edit]

The Khitan wrote using a Siniform script. Are these Chinese transcriptions of Khitan? —suzukaze (tc) 02:22, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little confused about what's going on here. Are you RFV-ing every entry in this category? Or are you just looking for evidence that Khitan was written using this script? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:45, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Khitans had their own script. These entries use the Chinese script. —suzukaze (tc) 17:30, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that, but I don't understand what your goal is with this discussion. If you want to RFV every entry in the category, then I'd like to add {{rfv}} tags to alert anyone watching the entries. If you want to discuss what writing systems Khitan used, maybe with the goal of moving all of these entries to different titles, then I'm not sure RFV is the right place for the discussion. (Likewise with the Buyeo section below.) —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 17:55, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Moved to RFM. - -sche (discuss) 21:04, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

May 2017[edit]

Some spurious languages to merge or remove, 2[edit]

remove Adabe [adb]

Geoffrey Hull, director of research for the Instituto Nacional de Linguística in East Timor, notes (in a 2004 Tetum Reference Grammar, page 228) that "the alleged Atauran Papuan language called 'Adabe' is a case of the mistaken identity of Raklungu," a dialect (along with Rahesuk and Resuk) of Wetarese. He notes (in The Languages of East Timor, Some Basic Facts) that only Wetarese is spoken on the island, and Studies in Languages and Cultures of East Timor likewise says "The three Atauran dialects—with the northernmost of which the dialect of nearby Lirar is mutually intelligible—are unquestionably Wetarese, and not dialects of Galoli, as Fox and Wurm suggest for two of them (n. 32). The same authors refer (ibidem) to a supposedly Papuan language of Atauro, the existence of which appears to be entirely illusory." (The error appears to have originated not with Fox and Wurm but with Antonio de Almeida in 1966.) - -sche (discuss) 01:45, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We could repurpose the code into one for those three Atauran varieties of Malayo-Polynesian Wetarese, Rahesuk, Resuk, and Raklu Un / Raklungu (the last of which Ethnologue does list as an alt name of adb, despite their erroneous family assignment of it), perhaps under the name "Atauran Wetarese" for clarity. - -sche (discuss) 01:52, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
remove Agaria [agi]

Glottolog makes the case that this is spurious. - -sche (discuss) 07:57, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Arma (aoh) is also said to be "a possible but unattested extinct language"; I am trying to see if that means it is entirely unattested, or if there are personal/ethnic/place names, etc. - -sche (discuss) 09:45, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Removed, see Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2020/October#2019-2020_ISO_code_changes. - -sche (discuss) 06:18, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Aghu language

The VU Amsterdam report linked to here seems to indicate that one lect has been given multiple codes, and that "Jair" at least is spurious. Further research wouldn't hurt. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:24, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Categories in Category:Letters[edit]

Can we come up with more descriptive names than Category:Aa please? —CodeCat 22:37, 14 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

IMO they are fine as they are. We could use "Letter Aa", etc, I guess. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 04:51, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Apparently this is not a set category, despite its name seeming like one. User:Smuconlaw apparently intended it to be about things related to limbs. I think it should be renamed to more clearly reflect that. —CodeCat 17:35, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What is a "set category"? — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:36, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A category that contains items belonging to a particular set. See Category:List of sets. A characteristic of set categories is that they have plural names. —CodeCat 17:37, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, I'm not sure what it's supposed to be. I was just following the example of other categories under "Category:Body" such as "Category:Buttocks", "Category:Face", "Category:Muscles", "Category:Organ systems", "Category:Skeleton", "Category:Skin", and "Category:Teeth". — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:44, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm currently working with User:-sche on a more permanent solution to issues like this. —CodeCat 19:00, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 22:10, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Has this been resolved? - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 23:17, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]


This should be handled with {{liushu}}, since jiajie is one of the six categories (liushu). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 18:36, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Can both of these templates be renamed to include a language code? —CodeCat 19:01, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
{{jiajie}} should be merged with {{liushu}}, which could be renamed as {{Han liushu}}, following {{Han compound}} and {{Han etym}}. It might not be a good idea to use a particular language code because these templates are intended for use in multiple languages now. They used to be used under Translingual, but we have decided to move the glyph origin to their respective languages. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 20:22, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You can use script codes as prefixes too. We have Template:Latn-def, Module:Cans-translit and such. —CodeCat 20:26, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Entries in CAT:Taos lemmas with curly apostrophes[edit]

Many Taos entries use curly apostrophes to represent glottal stops. They should either use the easy-to-type straight apostrophe ' that many other languages use, or the apostrophe letter ʼ that Navajo and a few other languages use. - -sche (discuss) 21:36, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The headword template interprets the curly apostrophe as a punctuation mark (because it is), and automatically links words such as adùbi’íne as adùbiíne. (Personally, I think the apostrophe letter looks better, but there may be other considerations.) — Eru·tuon 21:45, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and I just learned of the Unicode character for the saltillo. But no entries use it, and I am averse to introducing yet another visually-almost-identical symbol to represent the glottal stop, next to the three (counting the curly apostrophe) mentioned above that are already in use, plus the ˀ that some entries use. - -sche (discuss) 02:23, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in favor of standardizing on U+02BC MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE for any language that uses an apostrophe-looking thing as a letter. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:52, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Probably reasonable for glottalizationy apostrophes. At least Skolt Sami uses ʹ U+02B9 MODIFIER LETTER PRIME for suprasegmental palatalization though, which should likely be kept separate. --Tropylium (talk) 16:55, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've moved quite a few of these; about 140 remain to be moved. - -sche (discuss) 04:49, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:E numbers to Category:European food additive numbers[edit]

The Category:E language surely has numbers, which would require this category to be used. Other suggestions for the food additive category name would be welcome. Maybe "List of E numbers"? DTLHS (talk) 16:31, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If we adopt a systematic naming scheme for topic and set categories as CodeCat and I have been discussing, then I guess it could be "Category:mul:set:E numbers" or "Category:Translingual:set:E numbers". However, independent of whether or not such prefixes ("Translingual:set:") come into use, a more intelligible name like the one you propose, replacing "E" with "European food additive", would be good. Other food-additive numbering schemes in use in Europe could also go in the same category. - -sche (discuss) 18:48, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Very good find. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:50, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disagree. They are not called European food additive numbers, they are E numbers. SemperBlotto (talk) 18:05, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @SemperBlotto: So what do you want to do about numbers in the E language? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:09, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I think you may be implying that the category should be something like mul:E numbers just in case any of our users think E is a language. I wouldn't object to that. SemperBlotto (talk) 18:12, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    To be clear: E is a language, spoken in China. CAT:E language. (And like CAT:English numbers, it will have a "numbers" category someday when our coverage of it improves.) Perhaps a move should be postponed for a little while, though, while we see if we can come up with a systematic naming scheme for topic and set categories (see my talk page). - -sche (discuss) 18:33, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Since there's been no progress towards systematically changing how topic and set categories are named, this one does need to be renamed, because it does conflict with the expected 'numbers' category of the existing E language. Does anyone else want to weigh in on whether the name should be "Category:European food additive numbers" or "Category:mul:E numbers"? - -sche (discuss) 22:34, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

June 2017[edit]

all it's cracked up to be - not all it's cracked up to be[edit]

Redirect one towards the other. --Barytonesis (talk) 23:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are plenty of instances that don't include adjacent not (eg, not anything (also nothing) like what it was cracked up to be) and others that have no not (or any other negative) at all (eg, to send Ray and Isaac up there to see if it was what it was 'cracked up to be'.). Note that the second example does not have is/'s and also omits all. It also could be in the plural.
Thus it is not obvious what the lemma should be. cracked up to be is the core, but makes a poor lemma. DCDuring (talk) 00:04, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This Books search shows that the active form can be found. DCDuring (talk) 00:20, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We do have sense 4 at crack up that covers this in principle, but not in actuality for most users. DCDuring (talk) 00:22, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@DCDuring: thanks for your input. You're one of the few contributors here interested in improving the English entries ahah.
Should we keep all it's cracked up to be as the lemma (and redirect the negative form to it), with notes explaining that it's often used in the negative (there's already one), and that it admits a fair amount of variation: "all" is not compulsory, there are instances of the active voice, the verb can be at a past tense, etc.?
Maybe you'll be interested in the case of "give a monkey's" as well, which I posted some time ago on that very same page? --Barytonesis (talk) 11:40, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I can't think of a better simple solution than what you propose. It has the disadvantage that there is no place other than usage notes to give usage example of the major possible variations. It would probably not be helpful to give usage examples for all the forms anywhere on the entry
Another approach would be to have redirects to a senseid for sense 4 of crack up from all of the versions of this with or without all, with the various pronouns (∅, what), all the person pronouns, and various tenses and aspects of crack up for hundreds of redirects. Probably some are very rare/unattestable and could be omitted with no harm at all, but many would remain. And there would still be no place at crack up for the numerous usage examples either.
An idiom dictionary at OneLook has 1 lemma (at not what something is cracked up to be at OneLook Dictionary Search) and 14 or more redirects thereto. DCDuring (talk) 20:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, what you (Barytonesis) propose sounds good. In general, I find it confusing when we take expressions that are usually negative and lemmatize and define them as positive expressions; if readers search for the negative form and don't notice they've been redirected, the risk that they'll think the phrase means the opposite of what it actually means seems high; but ah well. There should be redirects from not what it's cracked up to be, what it's cracked up to be, and probably even the forms with "be" (be all it's..., be what it's...) and "not be". - -sche (discuss) 20:55, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder where I can find the stop words (if the search engine even needs to have them) for search here. There might be some way to radically reduce the number of redirects. DCDuring (talk) 20:58, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have added usage examples and expanded the usage label for crack up#Verb (sense 4). For me that would be sufficient. Redirects are fine, but usage examples for the common collocations should be enough. DCDuring (talk) 22:45, 6 June 2018 (UTC)![reply]

August 2017[edit]

post mortem[edit]

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification/English.

Google ngrams for post-mortem,post mortem,postmortem Google ngrams for ante-mortem,ante mortem,antemortem So Google says clearly antemortem and probably postmortem, Merriam-Webster says antemortem and postmortem, Oxford says ante-mortem and post-mortem and we say post mortem and antemortem. We should probably move post mortem to postmortem and make post mortem an alternative spelling entry for postmortem? I don't actually question the existence of any of these, but this seems like the best place to put this. I'm not sure it would be okay if I tried to move these pages myself (assuming I even can) and it might be better to have someone more experienced do that anyway because swapping pages can be confusing. W3ird N3rd (talk) 23:31, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't question the existence of any of them, RFV is not the right place. Accordingly, I've moved this discussion from WT:RFVE to WT:RFM. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:03, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I've somehow always overlooked this page. I don't think I've ever even been here before. I now notice it's in the bar at the top, but I guess I just always skimmed over it. This page move isn't going to be uncontroversial seeing that the dictionaries don't even agree, so this is the right place. I have a cheap paper dictionary, less than 10 years old that says "post-mortem". But I don't think we should blindly follow the dictionaries here. W3ird N3rd (talk) 01:16, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

it's a long story[edit]

Should perhaps be moved to long story? W3ird N3rd (talk) 06:42, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In contrast to long story short, neither seems entryworthy to me. They are quite transparent. Checking long story at OneLook Dictionary Search, one notes that none of those references find it inclusionworthy, whereas long story short at OneLook Dictionary Search shows some coverage. DCDuring (talk) 11:01, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Suggest merging with time bank, although that has an additional sense listed. Otherwise make this a cross-reference to time bank in the appropriate sense(s). — Paul G (talk) 06:03, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Merged by Ultimateria (talkcontribs) in 2018 (diff). - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 21:49, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]


sense: Noun: "(aviation) A large multi-engined aircraft. The term heavy normally follows the call-sign when used by air traffic controllers."

In the aviation usage AA21 heavy ("American Airline flight 21 heavy") the head of the NP is AA21, heavy being a qualifying adjective indicating a "wide-bodied", ergo "heavy", aircraft.

Move to noun with any adjustments required. DCDuring (talk) 13:19, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

September 2017[edit]

Renaming mey[edit]

We currently have it as "Hassaniya" (which we used to spell as Hassānīya; those macra were removed along the way, presumably by Liliana, although I don't see any discussion; MG deleted the old category once it was empty). To match the other colloquial Arabic languages, it should be "Hassaniya Arabic". (Note: if Arabic is merged, this will become moot.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:07, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This seems a bit different from most of the other forms of Arabic which are "[Adjective referring to a place] Arabic", where just calling the lect "Libyan" (etc) would be more awkward. Still, I have no objection to a rename, though I don't have time to rename all the categories right now. I also notice that, while Hassaniya is probably still the most common spelling overall, it seems like Hassaniyya started to become more common around 2003. - -sche (discuss) 04:03, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 2017[edit]

Categories about country subdivisions to include the country name[edit]

This will include at least the following:

Categories for certain things that are located within these subdivisions will also be named, e.g. Category:Cities in Aomori (Prefecture)Category:Cities in Aomori Prefecture, Japan. —Rua (mew) 13:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I oppose the existence of categories with language code like "en:" in the first place, but what is proposed here seems to be an improvement over the status quo. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 20:27, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I would have opposed a lot of these, but I was too late on the scene. DonnanZ (talk) 15:51, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support all except Category:Abkhazia, Georgia (for which I abstain as I do not properly understand the political situation explained by User:Palaestrator verborum). - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 03:34, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
US states were moved by MewBot (talkcontribs) in 2017. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 22:00, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The rename has been put on hold until there is a clear consensus either way. Please vote! —Rua (mew) 15:11, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Rua It looks sane to me if politics are let out. But why is Abkhazia in Georgia though it is an independent state, statehood only depending on factual prerequisites and not on diplomatic recognition which has nothing to do with it? Where does the Crimea belong to? (article Sevastopol is only in Category:en:Ukraine because it has not really been edited since 2014.) I can think of two solutions: First possibility: We focus on geographical and cultural constants. Second possibility: We focus on the actual political power. I disprefer the second slightly because it can mean much work in cases of war (i.e. how much the Islamic state holds etc., or say the current factions in Libya). But in neither case Abkhazia is in Georgia. But the first possibility does not even answer what the Crimea belongs to, i.e. I am not sure if it is historically correct to speak of the Crimea as Ukraine. And geographical terms are often fuzzy and subject to editorial decisions. All seems so easy if you start your concepts from the United States, which do not even have a name for the region they are situated in. And even for the USA your idea is questionable because the constituent states of the United States are states in their own right (Teilstaat, Gliedstaat in German), as is also the case for the Federal Republic of Germany and the Russian Federation partially (according to the Russian constitution only those of the 85 subjects are states which are called Republic, not the Oblasti etc.). Is Tatarstan Russia? Not even Russians can agree with such a sentence, as in Russia one sharply distinguishs русские and россияне, Россия and Российская федерация. Technically Ceuta and Melilla are in Morocco because Spain is not in Africa. Also, Kosovo je Srbija, and it would become just a coincidence if a place important in Serbian history is listed as X, Kosovo or X, Serbia. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 16:06, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Rua: Most of these categories like Category:en:Special wards in Tokyo are back on the {{delete}} list. I think these should be removed again for the time being. DonnanZ (talk) 18:02, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Starting with the above, I don't know how the Tokyo ward system works, but I imagine it's a subdivision of the city. In England wards are subdivisions in cities, boroughs, local government districts, and possibly counties. "Wards in" is the natural usage.
Municipalities similarly. For example in Norway there are hundreds of municipalities (kommuner) which are subdivisions within counties (fylker). Some of these can be large, especially in the north, but so are the counties in the north. To me "municipalities in" is the natural wording.
States and provinces in the USA and Canada: In nearly all cases it is unnecessary to add the country name as the names are unambiguous. The only exception I can think of is Georgia, USA. This could also apply to prefectures in Japan and states in India (is there a Punjab in Pakistan?). DonnanZ (talk) 18:52, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there is, like there is in India. Maybe categorisations should be abundant? Cities can belong to Punjab as well as to Punjab, India, and the Crimea is part of administration of both the Russian Federation and the Republic Ukraine at least for some purposes in the Republic Ukraine. We can make the least thing wrong by adding Sheikh Zuweid (presuming it exists) as well to the Islamic State as to the Arab Republic of Egypt, because we do not want to judge morally and formally states and terror organizations are indistinguishable. On the other hand of course we need sufficient data to relate towns to administrative divisions and ISIS presumably does not publish organigrams. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 19:44, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

December 2017[edit]


CAT:Animals > ... > CAT:Bovines > CAT:Cattle, and there you have strange things happening: abattoir, beefsteak, bullfighting, cowboy, sirloin. --Barytonesis (talk) 23:02, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Per utramque cavernam, I don't really see what you want us to do about this. It's a somewhat unavoidable side effect of how our categorisation system works, in that terms related to cattle are not going to be animals themselves. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:28, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This means that Category:Cattle should be terms for cattle, not related to cattle. —Rua (mew) 22:57, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Metaknowledge: Our categories could be one of the most interesting and innovative parts of this project, but not if we're going to be lazy like this and see such dilution as "unavoidable"... --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 00:55, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Metaknowledge: Sorry for this unpleasant answer, I cringe rereading it now. PUC – 14:42, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Barytonesis PUC (talkcontribs) removed (from en:Cattle) all of the terms you explicitly mentioned, and many others, in 2018 (relevant contrib). It seems to me the issue has been resolved. - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 23:23, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]


I don't think "wiki" is a mass noun. DTLHS (talk) 03:17, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, but neither is the category for listing wikis. Maybe Category:Wiki culture or Category:Wiki terminology? —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 07:16, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Our topical categories never contain "terminology" or "related" or anything like that. Such changes were rejected in the past. —Rua (mew) 22:23, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@DTLHS The siblings of Category:Wiki include Web design (uncountable noun), Websites (plural countable noun), and YouTube (proper noun). I don't think we should try to force them to all be mass nouns. Would Category:Wikis be better? - excarnateSojourner (talk | contrib) 23:48, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]


This is a newly created (September 2017) topical category. It should be renamed to something that does not imply that it contains expressions that are directive. It contains terms that relate to direction or, more frequently, terms that can be confused with direction. I recognize that Direction would not be a suitable category name. I don't have any suggestion. It may be that the category is ill-conceived. DCDuring (talk)

I see nothing wrong with it. If it contained directive expressions, it would be called Category:English directives or similar. We have voted in the past to keep topical category naming distinct from other categories, so the naming scheme is considered indicative of its use/meaning/function. —Rua (mew) 20:37, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not surprised that you see nothing wrong, what with the cat scheme being otherwise so perfect.
I favor keeping topical categories as far way as possible from our other entry categories.
But, unlike other categories that have names that are plural in form, Category:en:Directives contains neither examples nor names of the referents of its category name, ie of directives. It contains a dog's breakfast of terms that the categorizer, User:, thought to be connected to some sense of the noun(?) directive. One mistake was to pick as name for a concept/category a de-adjectival noun. Probably the name was made plural to avoid confusion with the adjective.
If you can make sense of the rationale for the membership in the category of ban, bare minimum, beckoning, behest, besaiel, beseeching, bidding, bill, blacklist, blackmail, bloodlust, blueprint, booty call, boundary, boycott, breve, bribe, and bytecode, you, Gunga Din, are a better man than I. I am at a loss to understand the common element among these terms. Is each suppopsed to be a type of directive? If no one can come up with a better name for the category, or prune membership rationally, or split it into multiple comprehensible cateogries, or RfDO it, I will RfDO it. DCDuring (talk) 02:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Bytecode in the sense of compiler directive! Really pushing it a bit. Equinox 02:49, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

January 2018[edit]

Template:list helper[edit]

Is {{list helper 2}} an improved version of {{list helper}}? Can all instances of {{list helper}} be converted to {{list helper 2}}? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:33, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

February 2018[edit]

Template:eggcorn of into Template:misconstruction of[edit]

...keeping the redirect. Or is there a sensible distinction between the two that we want to maintain? - -sche (discuss) 18:43, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was hesitant to recreate CAT:English misconstructions, but labelling evolutionary stable strategy as an "eggcorn" seems like a stretch. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oh wait, that's not what you're suggesting. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the eggcorn template to categorize into the misconstruction category, emptying Category:English eggcorns and Category:Vietnamese eggcorns, although that should be undone if there is some distinction I am missing that it would be good and feasible to maintain. - -sche (discuss) 18:49, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I feel that there's a semantic aspect to eggcorns that isn't really present in evolutionary stable strategy, trompe-d'œil or analysises. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:53, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
True, but that distinction seems a bit fuzzy; e.g., dominate is labelled an eggcorn (because it's homographic to a valid word?) while unfortunant is labelled a misconstruction. And evolutionary in evolutionary stable strategy is also a word. (But I'm not opposed to making a dinstinction; I'm just pointing out the issues with it, devil's-advocate-style.) - -sche (discuss) 19:25, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@-sche: I agree that the distinction is fuzzy (in fact, I'd even say that the distinction between "misconstructed", "nonstandard" and "proscribed" is fuzzy: compare our treatment of developmentation, abortation and pronounciate). Still, I think it's not entirely without merit, although I would be hard pressed to give you a specific set of criteria.
I wouldn't call dominate an eggcorn, but without any quotation it's hard to judge anyway. In fact, I'm going to RFV it. not necessary: it's used indeed.
Another thing: I don't like the way idiosyncratic is used in our def of eggcorn. It seems to be used as a synonym of "odd, strange, peculiar, eccentric", but it shouldn't be. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:02, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
orange is a result of misconstruction of naranga, isn't it? But orange is certainly not nonstandard. (Other cases of loss of juncture are apron, newt, nickname) Though misconstructions may tend to be nonstandard (for all intensive purposes, at least), they can become standard over time, as with many "errors". DCDuring (talk) 20:09, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's specifically a rebracketing/metanalysis, which you could say is a type of misconstruction. However, I certainly wouldn't want to label orange as a misconstruction; that's true diachronically, but not synchronically. I do want to label it as a rebracketing, though. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:21, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard to find references rather than intuition to support classifying terms one way or another, but I suppose the difference between developmentation and pronounciate vs unfortunant and dominate is that I think the first two are intentional (jocular) errors and the second two are unintentional. If we keep the categories separate, should "eggcorns" be a subcategory of "misconstructions" or a "sibling category" on the same level (cross-linked)? - -sche (discuss) 20:39, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And then there are entries like firstable which only say they're eggcorns in the etymology, not the definition... - -sche (discuss) 21:06, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary:Shortcut -> Wiktionary:Shortcuts[edit]

Why is this in the singular? It just looks weird in the case of a title like this. (Somewhat irrelevant, extra issue: the page needs a lede to explain what a shortcut is.) PseudoSkull (talk) 05:23, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support on both counts. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:23, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 03:42, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

March 2018[edit]


In an almost ridiculous turn of events, this template should itself be merged into {{rfm}}. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 08:17, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it seems like {{rfm}} should default to "suggests that this ... be moved, merged or split" and should (does?) have a parameter to specify which one, and then {{merge}} and {{move}} and {{split}} should be shells that just consist of {{rfm|type=merge}} or the like. - -sche (discuss) 17:30, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This should probably be done now, because I got confused looking at the template, not sure if what I was seeing was the output of the template, or an actual RFM message! —Rua (mew) 20:16, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:English non-idiomatic translation targets[edit]

I propose to rename this category to Category:English translation targets, so that we don't need to waste time to discuss whether each entry is idiomatic or not.--Zcreator alt (talk) 16:31, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is that technically, any English entry with a translation section is a translation target. This category is for a very small subset of those entries that would not be kept otherwise. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:24, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose of the category would be "terms which are mainly retained for the benefit of translation". However I am considered to launch a discussion to modify CFI to formally include these terms.--Zcreator alt (talk) 16:40, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was under the impression that this category was supposed to correspond to the use of the "this entry is only here for translations" template, because an entry should only have a definition if it's idiomatic; and any entry with a definition is a normal entry (right?) and can have translations, either in the entry itself, or centralized in some synonym. I don't understand why this category seems to be used on pages that do have definitions; it seems like an error. Hence, it seems like we'd still have to make the same decision about idiomaticity, about whether or not to use that template. Hence, I see no benefit to the rename. (But Meta has pointed out a big drawback.) - -sche (discuss) 17:22, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It may be a debate whether this category is useful at all - we don't have a categories for entries kept for COALMINE rule; and what the definition should be for entries kept as translation targets (imo we can alternatively treat them as normal entries and describe them literally e.g. cooked rice as "rice that is cooked" instead of using the translate only template, once we formally include them to CFI). Again, this should be discussed in a wider venue (like Beer parlour).--Zcreator alt (talk) 08:03, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Struck as the category is renamed.--Zcreator alt (talk) 04:03, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
42 entries in the category remain to be moved, after which the redirect should perhaps be deleted to discourage unwitting (e.g. HotCat) re-addition of entries to it. - -sche (discuss) 01:43, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:English words ending in "-gry"[edit]

This is extremely trivial, not to mention something that could be found even if it were not categorised. I think that it suits an appendix much better, so I propose that its contents be moved to Appendix:English words ending in -gry. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:23, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A benefit to having it as a category is that theoretically it ought to be addable by the headword templates examining the pagename (like "English terms spelled with Œ"), which, if implemented (...if it could be implemented without excessive memory costs), would allow it to be kept up to date automatically. - -sche (discuss) 17:16, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That is true, but I don't really think we should be using headword templates to collate trivia. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:47, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per proponent. --Per utramque cavernam 18:09, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Is there something like Category:English lemmas but sorted from the end, like anger, ranger, hunger, angry, hungry? --幽霊四 (talk) 19:40, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
At http://tools.wmflabs.org/dixtosa/ you can get a list of all entries in any category that end with any string you like. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:58, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support the proposed move per nom. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 05:00, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

April 2018[edit]

Entries for Japanese prefecture names that end in (ken, prefecture)[edit]

I would like to request the move of the content of entries like 茨城県 (Ibaraki-ken, literally Ibaraki prefecture) to simply 茨城 (Ibaraki, Ibaraki), cf. Daijisen. is not an essential part of the name.

(Notifying Eirikr, Wyang, TAKASUGI Shinji, Nibiko, Atitarev, Dine2016, Poketalker, Cnilep, Britannic124, Fumiko Take, Dine2016): Suzukaze-c 03:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As a counterargument, Shogakukan's 国語大辞典 entry for 茨城 (Ibaraki) has one sense listed as 「いばらきけん(茨城県)」の略 ("Ibaraki-ken" no ryaku, "short for Ibaraki-ken"), and the 茨城 page on the JA Wikipedia is a disambig pointing to 茨城県 as one possible more-specific entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 03:52, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) It seems like a two-word phrase to me. I am not a native speaker, but I think that if someone asked "水戸市は何県?" ((in) What prefecture is Mito?) then "茨城です。" (It's Ibaraki) would be a correct answer. Entries such as 奈良 and 広島 should have both the city and the prefecture. (I see that 奈良 currently does.) Cnilep (talk) 04:01, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
茨城県です would also be correct and probably more common. At least 東京 and 東京都 are clearly distinguished. No one in Izu Ōshima would say he/she is from 東京. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:04, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, 茨城県 is also correct. And if someone asked どこの出身? (Where are you from?) the answer would probably be 奈良県 rather than 奈良, or else expect a follow-up question. But I don't think that is necessarily a matter of word boundaries. Compare Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh, Kansas; the fact that it is usually necessary, and always acceptable to specify the latter doesn't mean that Pittsburgh on its own is not a proper noun. By same token, I think that 茨城 (et alia) is a word. That's the point I had in mind. I will say nothing about what is more common. I don't even have good intuitions about frequency in my native language. Cnilep (talk) 04:54, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I fully agree that 茨城 is a term worthy of inclusion. I also think that 茨城県 is a term worthy of inclusion. We have entries for both New York and New York City, and even New York State. Similarly, I think we should have entries for [PREFECTURE NAME], and also for [PREFECTURE NAME] and [PREFECTURE NAME] and [PREFECTURE NAME], etc., as appropriate. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:03, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I believe New York is a special case because there is both the state and the city. We have Washington State, but we don't have City of Chicago or State of Oregon. —Suzukaze-c 18:40, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A lot (maybe all?) of the prefecture names minus the (-ken) suffix are polysemous. Listing a few from the north to the south, limiting just to geographical senses, and just in the same regions at that:
  • 青森 (Aomori): a prefecture and a city
  • 岩手 (Iwate): a prefecture, a city, and a township
  • 秋田 (Akita): a prefecture and a city
  • 山形 (Yamagata): a prefecture, a city, and a village
  • 宮城 (Miyagi): a prefecture, a county, a township, a rural area (ancient Japan), a village, an island, and a mountain
  • 福島 (Fukushima): a prefecture, a city, and a township
  • 新潟 (Nīgata): a prefecture, a city, a park, and a village
  • 栃木 (Tochigi): a prefecture and a city
  • 茨城 (Ibaraki): a prefecture, a county, and a township
Jumping south a bit to touch on Anatoli's example further below:
  • 奈良 (Nara): a prefecture, a city, a township, and a village
I am consequently in support of including both the bare name, and the qualified name(s), much as we already do for similar situations with English terms. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They are polysemic because most prefectures were named after their capital city during the abolition of the han system. Exceptions include 埼玉 and 沖縄, where cities are named after their prefecture. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 12:23, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Generally support. Less duplication is good, and it is not much different from Chinese etc. for which we generally delemmatise, if not completely hard-redirect, these forms. Wyang (talk) 04:49, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. For a dictionary, I think we don't need to keep entries with both prefecture name and prefecture, despite the usage but it's always helpful to provide usage notes (e.g. normally used with 県: ~県) and usage examples, e.g. 奈良県(ならけん) (Nara ken, Nara (prefecture)). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:45, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Same suffix as in быль (bylʹ), убыль (ubylʹ), прибыль (pribylʹ), отрасль (otraslʹ), поросль (poroslʹ). а belongs to the stem. Guldrelokk (talk) 23:27, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Atitarev, Benwing2, Chignon: Please voice an opinion; if you agree, the couple of entries using this suffix need to be modified. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:52, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The two entries need a change. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
ruwikt: Категория:Русские слова с суффиксом -ль (Category:Russian words suffixed with -ль). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:08, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Guldrelokk, Benwing2, Chignon: I have modified entries, the category is orphaned, -ль (-lʹ) still needs to be defined. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:30, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Atitarev, can you please resolve this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:41, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 2018[edit]

roleplaying gamerole-playing game[edit]

The hyphenated spelling is the most common spelling and the grammatically correct one. Wikipedia uses the non-hyphenated spelling (W:Role-playing game, W:Role-playing video game). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Interqwark roleplaying game once had a hyphen but was moved in 2010 by a non-administrator, seemingly without a discussion. Interqwark talk contribs 13:30, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What is not grammatically correct about roleplaying? Equinox 14:12, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Equinox: “Role-playing” is usually spelt with a hyphen (sometimes with a space instead). “Roleplaying” is the non-standard spelling.
“Role-playing game” and “Role-playing video game” are the most common spellings and the ones used on Wikipedia. Interqwark talk contribs 14:39, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In the 21st century, it's spelled without a hyphen. I checked various works:
Dungeons & Dragons PHB (1st edition) (1978) role-playing game
Dungeons & Dragons PHB (2nd edition) (1989) role-playing game
Dungeons & Dragons PHB (3rd edition) (2000) roleplaying game
Dungeons & Dragons PHB (4th edition) (2008) roleplaying game
Dungeons & Dragons PHB (5th edition) (2015) roleplaying game
Pathfinder Core Rulebook (2009) roleplaying game
Starfinder Core Rulebook (2017) roleplaying game
Mage: the Ascension (2nd edition) (1995) roleplaying game
Changeling: the Dreaming (2nd edition) (1997) roleplaying game
Mage: the Ascension (revised edition) (2000) uses neither roleplaying game nor role-playing game, but uses both roleplaying and role-playing
Mage: the Ascension (20th anniversary edition) (2015) roleplaying game
Changeling: the Dreaming (20th anniversary edition) (2017) roleplaying game
Fate Core Book (2013) roleplaying game
Trail of Cthulhu (2008) roleplaying game
Paranoia (new edition) (2016) role-playing game
GURPS (3rd edition) (1989) roleplaying game
Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game (powered by GURPS) (2015) roleplaying game
Steve Jackson Games style guide (owner of GURPS) mandates roleplaying, not role-playing
Star Wars: Edge of the Empire (2013) roleplaying game
Star Trek Adventures Roleplaying Game (2017) roleplaying game
It's a somewhat arbitrary selection, but I mostly kept to major 21st century games. As you can see from http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present , I got all five of the best selling games for the most recent quarter, and a good sample of the best selling games going back for years. (M:tA and C:tD are samples of the World of Darkness books.) Dungeons & Dragons is dominant in the industry, so that alone would be an argument for roleplaying game. Paranoia is produced by Mongoose, a British company, which may be why they use the hyphen; Modiphius Entertainment, the British producers of the Star Trek Adventures RPG, don't use a hyphen. In any case, it is overwhelmed by the mainstream usage of "roleplaying game".--Prosfilaes (talk) 18:42, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Prosfilaes: I suppose you’re right and that it is not non-standard if the unhyphenated spelling is so common. I rarely see it myself, but it does seem more common than I thought. In that case, my apologies. However, since Wikipedia uses the hyphenated spelling, shouldn’t Wiktionary do too? Interqwark talk contribs 19:12, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We're a group of individuals whose common decisions are usually not, and should not ever, be dependent on the decisions of another group of individuals. What should count here are other people's arguments, not their results. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 19:34, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In the titles of RP content roleplaying seems common, but in edited content it seems almost non-existent with role-playing being the overwhelming choice. Other dictionaries seem to strongly favor role-playing, as do the NY Times, Washington Post, The Times, etc. While it is hard to determine, I am curious how often roleplaying is used outside of the titles of particular products, and if it is predominantly used there how we ought to handle that. Is it akin to a word like lite, which is extremely common in product names but much more rare as an independent adjective? - TheDaveRoss 21:03, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ngrams would suggest that, as you say, role-playing game is more common. - -sche (discuss) 22:00, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Is Google making a distinction between "role playing game" and "role-playing game" in that search?--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:39, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Prosfilaes: No, I’m fairly certain Google doesn’t care about punctuation marks. Interqwark talk contribs 00:59, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it does seem to distinguish them, as you can see if you compare all three spellings in the Viewer. The spaced spelling "role playing game" is the rarest of the bunch. - -sche (discuss) 05:22, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Most of those selections were not from titles, but were instead from body text. I object to "edited content"; all of those books are from professional multi-person publishers with editors on staff. It is not like "lite"; it's the normal spelling of the word in the tabletop RPG industry.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:39, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was not contrasting "edited content" with the information you provided, but rather with things like Usenet usage etc. I don't disagree that all three variants are common within the community and associated materials (be they edited, user-created or otherwise). I think we ought to have all three variants represented and if there is a useful distinction to be made about where each of them is most commonly used or rarely used we should make note of that information. It does seem like the single-word variant is much more common within the industry than it is in other places, as is clear from the news reporting on the subject strongly preferring the hyphenated variant. - TheDaveRoss 02:35, 10 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the original move proposal. Sticking with what is most commonly used by the industry seems sensible. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 05:41, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

July 2018[edit]

Category:Bengali script and related[edit]

After some discussion on Category talk:Baybayin script (that went a bit off-topic), some of the Indian language editors (@Bhagadatta, Msasag and myself) have agreed that this category should be renamed to Category:Eastern Nagari script, the reasons being (1) several languages other than Bengali use this script, and (2) the Bengali alphabet is just a subset of this script and lacks some of the glyphs used by other Bengali-script languages (most prominently Assamese which has a separate r-glyph). I want to make sure that there are no objections to this by editors who were not in the discussion. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 02:06, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

google:assamese+site:unicode.orgSuzukaze-c 02:16, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Asm sultan, Dubomanab Kutchkutch (talk) 05:35, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol support vote.svg Support -- Bhagadatta (talk) 08:38, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]


The two verb senses are bad IMHO. The first should be at busy oneself, I think, since it is always reflexive AFAIK. The second one doesn't sound right at all -- "He busied her" isn't something I've heard. Is that real at all? 02:36, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support the move of verb sense 1 to busy onself. Send verb sense 2 to RFV. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 05:46, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

August 2018[edit]

Category:Nahuatl language[edit]

Nahuatl is sometimes treated as a language, and sometimes as a family of languages. Right now, Wiktionary is treating it as both simultaneously, which doesn't make sense. "Nahuatl" should be removed as a language. --Lvovmauro (talk) 11:55, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the current arrangement doesn't make sense; it is a relic of very early days on Wiktionary, and has persisted mostly because it's not entirely clear how intelligible the varieties are and hence whether it's better to lump them all into nah, or retire nah and separate everything. But enough varieties are not intelligible that I agree with retiring nah (or perhaps finally converting it to a family code). - -sche (discuss) 20:34, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think a family code for Nahuan languages is really needed since there are many cases where we don't know specifically which variety a word was borrowed from. --Lvovmauro (talk) 09:55, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Lvovmauro: OK, thanks to you and a few other editors, all words with ==Nahuatl== sections have been given more specific headers. However, as many as a thousand translations remain to be dealt with before the code can be made a family code and Category:Nahuatl language moved on over to Category:Nahuan languages. - -sche (discuss) 06:48, 19 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A disturbingly large number of these translations are neologisms with no actual usage. Some of them don't even obey the rules of Nahuatl word formation. --Lvovmauro (talk) 11:03, 19 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Lvovmauro: Feel free to remove obvious errors / unattested neologisms. If a high proportion of the translations are bad, it might even be reasonable to start presuming they're bad and just removing them, since they already suffer from the problem of using an overbroad code. - -sche (discuss) 00:28, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Someone with more time on their hands than me at the moment will need to delete all the subcategories of Category:Nahuatl language, and then the category itself, in preparation for moving 'nah' from the language-code module to the family-code module so the categories won't be recreated by careless misuse of 'nah' in the labels etc of 'nci' entries. - -sche (discuss) 00:24, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mecayapan Nahuatl saltillos[edit]

A number of Mecayapan Nahuatl words are currently written with U+0027 APOSTROPHE, which is a punctuation mark and not a letter. And a couple are using U+02BC MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE, which is the wrong shape for this language. They should all be written with U+A78C LATIN SMALL LETTER SALTILLO instead.

--Lvovmauro (talk) 09:48, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Or perhaps they should just be moved to use the Modifier Letter Apostrophe, cf WT:RFM#Entries_in_CAT:Taos_lemmas_with_curly_apostrophes, to avoid over-proliferation of different apostrophe-ish letters. I think we should try to be consistent within the Nahuatl languages, at least, in which codepoint we use. - -sche (discuss) 20:26, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Most Nahuan languages don't use any sort of apostrophe. Mecayapan is unusual. --Lvovmauro (talk) 01:54, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

September 2018[edit]

Arawak and Island Carib[edit]

Any objections to me renaming Arawak arw (4 entries) and Island Carib crb (0 entries) to Lokono and Kalhiphona, respectively? Arawak is easily confused with the Arawak/Arawakan proto language and family, and Carib is one of two often confounded languages, the Carib language and the Island Carib language. --Victar (talk) 04:03, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No objection to renaming Arawak, but I'm not sure about Kalhiphona, which seems to be quite rare even on a Google web search, and which seems to invite as much possible confusion (in its various spellings) with the various spellings of Garifuna as it avoids with other "Carib"s. - -sche (discuss) 06:56, 19 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

willfulness wilfulness[edit]

willfulness wilfulness willful wilful : any need to merge ? 02:30, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from Tea Room Leasnam (talk) 03:01, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No need to revise willful. In any case spellings differ in British and American English, so no merger. DonnanZ (talk) 12:18, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The younger entry should be a {{standard spelling of}} the older entry, and I see someone has taken care of this. - -sche (discuss) 06:58, 19 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

give one enough rope[edit]

give someone enough rope. And do we even need enough? Per utramque cavernam 10:16, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The old Chambers 1908 dictionary I've been going through has (under rope) the sub-entry give a person rope, "to allow a person full scope". In my personal experience (which may be inadequate, wrong, etc.) the metaphor is that if you give a person enough rope, they will hang themselves, i.e. the person is irresponsible or unwise. Equinox 22:48, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We also have give him enough rope and he'll hang himself. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 06:11, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support onesomeone per convention. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 06:10, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:superlative predicative of to Template:da-superlative predicative of[edit]

Template:superlative attributive of to Template:da-superlative attributive of[edit]

Only used for Danish. —Rua (mew) 17:15, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't envisage using them in Norwegian. DonnanZ (talk) 13:53, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Japanese kanji by goon readingCategory:Japanese kanji by go-on reading[edit]

It’s not about goon but go-on. Most books on Japanese seem to use kan-on and go-on with a hyphen rather than the correctly Romanized kan’on and goon. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:42, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

October 2018[edit]

Category:Korean determinersCategory:Korean adnominals[edit]

I propose to rename Category:Korean determiners to Category:Korean adnominals, just like Category:Japanese adnominals. Korean gwanhyeongsa are grammatically almost identical to Japanese rentaishi or adnominals, which may or may not be determiners. Gwanhyeongsa are generally divided into three classes: demonstrative gwanhyeongsa, numeral gwanhyeongsa, and qualifying gwanhyeongsa ([4]). The last ones are not determiners. (pinging @Atitarev, Eirikr, Garam, HappyMidnight, KoreanQuoter) — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:31, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support. --Garam (talk) 08:21, 12 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Tentatively Support. Let's check with User:Wyang who was also involved and had an opinion in a related discussion on the group of words ending in (, jeok). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:42, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I feel determiner is the more common name for this in English; the different definitions of these terms across languages should not be a concern - e.g. we also use adjective differently for Korean. adnominal may be confused with the -eun, -neun, -eul, -deon forms of Korean verbs and adjectives. Wyang (talk) 03:57, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Wyang: The problem is that Category:Korean determiners contains words other than determiners. It will be all right to have both Category:Korean adnominals and Category:Korean determiners without renaming if you want, just like Category:Japanese adnominals and Category:Japanese determiners. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 10:31, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Tibidibi, AG202Fish bowl (talk) 11:32, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

wipe the floor but mop the floor with someone[edit]

Which is better? Per utramque cavernam 11:46, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say the latter: I have never heard wipe the floor without with (though the entry suggests it's possible; is it?). Equinox 11:49, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd prefer mop, but Google NGram favors wipe to mop 5:2. DCDuring (talk) 14:16, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The question here is whether to include "...with someone" in the entry title. Equinox 14:18, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I ignored the page it was on. I thought it was a TR question.
I think Lambian suggested that someone is sometimes useful to distinguish an idiom from literal use (eg, of wipe/mop the floor with a sponge-mop) without some of the ambiguities of an entry without someone, even with {{&lit}}. DCDuring (talk) 14:33, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I propose moving wipe the floor to wipe the floor with someone and defining mop the floor with someone as a synonym. clean someone's clock could also be defined as a synonym. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 06:20, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ichthyosaur vs. ichthyosaurus, and other terms like these.[edit]

I'm in a dispute with an editor over the exact meaning and differences between these two terms - are they the same or must we tell apart the order from the genus? Is there is a standard to follow? Дрейгорич (talk) 15:55, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The standard is making a survey of contemporary and past usages and using that to inform the definitions. DTLHS (talk) 16:15, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and cleaned up the definitions, and linked to the scientific genus in the entry in case anyone wants that. Дрейгорич (talk) 16:23, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Polish words suffixed with -ysko[edit]

Merge into Category:Polish words suffixed with -isko. These two are allomorphs of the same suffix, the one that gets used depends on the final consonant of the stem. The entry -ysko should also be defined as such, rather than having a full entry. —Rua (mew) 20:18, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Our entries for such (allomorphic and related) suffixes are a bit of a mess, it's true. (Compare the categories for the English suffixes -ian, -an, and -n.) IMO we should update the affix etymology-section templates so that they have access to lists of suffixes (etc) that are allomorphic in each language and which we want to merge, so people can input the suffix that's present (-ysko, etc) but have the entry categorize into (and potentially link to) the "lemma" suffix. Otherwise, categories like this will keep getting repopulated forever. - -sche (discuss) 17:54, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

November 2018[edit]

Language request: Old Cahita[edit]

Mayo and Yaqui are mutually intelligible and sometimes considered to be a single language called Cahita. But their speakers apparently consider them to be distinct languages, and they have distinct ISO codes (mfy and yaq) and are currently treated distinctly by Wiktionary.

I'm not requesting that they be merged, but separating them is a problem because an important early source, the Arte de la lengua cahita conforme à las reglas de muchos peritos en ella (published 1737 but written earlier) treats them as a single language, and also includes an extinct dialect called Tehueco. I'd like to add words from the Arte but I can't list them specifically as either Mayo or Yaqui.

One solution would be treat to the language of the Arte as a distinct historical language, "Old Cahita", which would then be the ancestor of Mayo and Yaqui. The downside is there only seems to be one linguist currently using this name. --Lvovmauro (talk) 11:32, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On linguistic grounds, it seems like we should merge Yaqui and Mayo. Jacqueline Lindenfeld's 1974 Yaqui Syntax says "Yaqui and Mayo are sufficiently similar to be mutually intelligible", the Handbook of Middle American Indians says "the modern known representatives of Cahitan—Yaqui and Mayo—are mutually intelligible", and various more general references say "Yaqui and Mayo are mutually intelligible dialects of the Cahitan language", "The Yaqui and Mayo speak mutually intelligible dialects of Cahita". (There are political considerations behind the split, which a merger might upset, so adding Old Cahita would also work, but we have tended to be lumpers...) - -sche (discuss) 23:03, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't object to merging them. --Lvovmauro (talk) 08:58, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup suggestions for some badly attested Semitic languages, needing admin action[edit]

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2018/November#Cleanup suggestions for some badly attested Semitic languages, needing admin action.
  1. Pray somebody add |scripts = {"Narb"} to Module:languages/data3/x after line 1026 for xna. (Otherwise mentions of words in it are shown in slanted letters.)
    Added. DTLHS (talk) 03:17, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    It seems that even MediaWiki:Common.css needs a new class for Narb added, to get font-style: normal; Sarb is there and has it, Narb is not there. If the mention of a North Arabian word in عَنْكَبُوت(ʿankabūt) works then it is complete. Also I see that in Module:scripts/data Narb does not have direction = "rtl" while Sarb has. Fay Freak (talk) 14:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Good catch. I've updated Common.css and Mobile.cc and set it to display rtl. Sadly, it seems there are no fonts that display it. If you or I could find a good image of what the letters are supposed to look like, I might have time to make a basic font iff the letters don't have to be joined the way they do in Arabic. - -sche (discuss) 22:08, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I as an Archfag recently had a great update three weeks ago that adds displaying support for Old North Arabian, amongst other things like which improved Arabic and Syriac script rendering everywhere. gucharmap calls the name of the font by “Noto Sans Old North Arabian”, which I find in the filelist of the noto-fonts package. @-sche Fay Freak (talk) 22:29, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I think everything under Category:Old North Arabian script languages should be “Ancient North Arabian” (xna), it is to wonder that Dadanitic (sem-dad), Hismaic (sem-his), Safaitic (sem-saf), Taymanitic (sem-tay), Dumaitic (sem-dum), Hasaitic (sem-has), Thamudic (sem-tha) are separate languages on Wiktionary (some also with no script assigned). (Prolly someone went through some lects and added all he found.) Those lects are at a level of attestion or study where it does not even matter whether they are dialects or languages, and “Thamudic” is even a collective term for any of the Ancient North Arabian lects not further classified. Many inscriptions cannot be classified unto more specific lects anyway (you know, people also were nomads and wrote graffiti here and there) and they can only be entered as “Ancient North Arabian”. With words being found randomly and in concise consonantal writing I don’t see why one would pursue separation other than by stating the find spot.
  3. Also, “Qatabanian” (xqt), “Sabaean” (xsa), “Minaean” (inm), “Harami” (xha, redirects to “Minaean” on Wikipedia), Hadrami (xhd) – likewise otiose distinctions, regarding form and amount of attestion of Epigraphic South Arabian, as the name says only epigraphically attested, without any vowels –, have been unpopular in use already, entries and etymologies use the header “Old South Arabian” (sem-srb). I suggests to cross out those. Etymology-only is possible so one can use those in {{cog}} when in an individual case a word is known to be attested as of one of the dialects. North Arabian epigraphy categorization is more complex and it is better anyway to mention in each etymology where a lexeme has been encountered.
    1. Himyaritic (sem-him), as an attested language, is rather mythical because the Ḥimyarites wrote Sabaean. Wikipedia mentions “three Himyaritic texts”, at the same time in the Encyclopedia of Arabic Language and Lingustics s.v. we read about two: “It is not even possible to establish whether they were written in the same language. The first text dates from around 100 C.E. and the second from around 300 C.E.” And about the secondary material from Early Medieval Arabs: “It is easy to see that quotations from Himyaritic offer very different readings according to the manuscripts.” Or according to others, mentioned in the EALL, Ḥimyarite is the same as Arabic, only with peculiar features (which might as well derive from Arabicized transmission, or later language fusion or whatever, much that could fool us). It could be grouped with those spurious languages if this category held languages from Antiquity.
  4. Gurage is according to Wolf Leslau, it’s most eminent scholar, one language with twelve dialects; others share this view. The material for this language, particularly by Leslau across his works, only lists words as “Gurage”, without qualifying if they are “Inor”, “Mesqan” or some other Gurage, so on Wiktionary one cannot simply give “Gurage” words (which has recently been done in Semitic comparisons by abusing the code of the largest dialect Sebat Bet Gurage, in spite of the source saying “Gurage”). The following dialects I find on en.Wiktionary as languages: Kistane/Soddo (gru), Mesqan (mvz), Sebat Bet Gurage (sgw), Silt'e (stv), Inor (ior), Muher (sem-mhr), Mesmes (mys), Chaha (sem-cha), Wolane (wle), Zay (zwa); some of these are considered subdialects of Sebat Bet Gurage. There are more I don’t find on Wiktionary. It’s perhaps like with the Aramaic dialects yore or the Low German dialects today. People publish Westphalian dictionaries but it’s still Low German and so treated by Wiktionary. I suspect that instead of holding controversial subdivisions deriving from Ethnologue we should, holding to the sources, keep the Wiktionary-language level higher. The source for a certain word can be further qualified by labels as with Coptic. I mean that with language, unlike with biological taxonomy, one cannot simply assume that distinctiveness of a taxon is ascertained by experiments and then authoritatively published in some reference. As the individual forms are described in this dictionary, one must weigh if the data allows distinction at all. Currently it looks to me that hence Gurage must be lumped; I don’t know if, with new data or emerging different literary standards, separating the lects with separate codes will later be convenient (the increase in language material will be disappointing and unlikely someone will come and add Gurage in thousands of entries anyway, let’s be realistic), but I doubt that it would be comfortable. See also Why is Old Novgorodian a separate language in Wiktionary? This is the question: Is the difference in data enough to justify separation? The actual language-dialect distinction does not matter, it must be seen functionally, for dictionary purposes, for dictionary purposes. And if linguists publish material as “Gurage” the distinction is probably not good for Wiktionary headers. Isn’t it out of scope of Wiktionary to distinguish lect clusters when they are generally unwritten and chiefly written by and variously lumped and splitted by linguists? That’s a difficult question. Also I fear that such distinctions might be precisely the cause why nobody comes and pours out his rich Gurage knowledge. An adept would not be sure to distinguish, pendulating between two extremes, not witting if he should split as much as he can by all kinds of criteria or if to standardize and to abstract. To help though first all mentioned codes need the Ge'ez and Latin script both assigned, and the macrolanguage created. Maybe there will be late order from early ambiguity. Though I would perhaps do the order by lumping and labelling by location, were I that certain aficionado.
The obese Wiktionary:List of languages currently comprising 8055 lects needs cuts however. Fay Freak (talk)
This discussion really belongs at rfm, because that's where we normally discuss changes to whether or how we recognize a language. The Grease pit is for discussing how to implement something along those lines- not whether it should be implemented. The other option would be at the Beer parlour, but this seems like something that would benefit from the more specialized focus of rfm. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:39, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Good distinction. I hesitated at 4:13 AM where to put it because of the mixed content. Moved. Fay Freak (talk) 14:16, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Some prior discussion of Thamudic et al is on Category talk:Hismaic language; IIRC they were separated because literature does mention them as distinct entities, but if they were very similar or often treated as one language, and especially if there's difficulty in assigning specific texts to specific ones due to similarity, that would be an argument for reversing that decision and going back to the conservative approach of treating them all as one language with 'dialect'/'region' labels where appropriate.
(As to the venue, yes, these discussions tend to happen on RFM for quirky historical reasons — originally the discussions entailed actually merging or splitting language templates — although some have proposed the Beer Parlour as a more logical venue. There are minor benefits and drawbacks to either venue; this venue does have the advantage that discussions stay on the page until resolved.) - -sche (discuss) 17:20, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I avoided Beer Parlour because I thought it is only for matters already affecting people, but it would not affect anyone we know now. Fay Freak (talk) 14:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Who is likely to have access to resources on Africa's Semitic languages that could help judge what to do with Gurage? User:Metaknowledge, User:Wikitiki89? Wikipedia insists "The Gurage languages do not constitute a coherent linguistic grouping", which seems incompatible with merging them. William A. Shack, in his book on The Gurage, writes that "each Gurage dialect is usually understood only by its own speakers, and there is a rough correlation between the contiguity of dialect groups and the extent to which their dialects are mutually intelligible." (Steven Danver, in his (general-focus) encyclopedia, says "the languages of the different groups of Ethiopian Gurage are seldom mutually intelligible.") Marvin Lionel Bender, in his 1976 Language in Ethiopia, says "Although seventeen varieties of Gurage dialects are listed, mutual intelligibility reduces this to four languages and three dialect clusters as follows (Hetzron classification):
  Gogot, Misqan, Muxir, Soddo
  East Gurage (Inneqor, Silti, Urbareg, Weleni, Zway)
  Central West Gurage (Chaha, Gumer, Gura Izha)
  Peripheral West Gurage (Ener, Geto, Indegegn, Innemor)"
However, his very next sentence is: "Gogot, Muxir, Soddo comprise a geographical (non-genetic) grouping of non-mutually-intelligible languages known as 'North Gurage'", all of which seeems to suggest that merging all of the Gurages would not be sound.
- -sche (discuss) 17:28, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The cited grouping of course adds to the confusion. Three languages, but four dialects clusters, not mentioning their intersections? Well, we will not find out how one should see them without deep-diving. But the question is which direction Wiktionary should go: likely the current division is not correct. Should Wiktionary just add all possible splits so they can be cleaned up later when someone would commit himself to add the whole Gurage and judge about which distinctions are most convenient or should we have one macro-code because distinction is hopeless? The reason why I have even mentioned Gurage is that for example Leslau’s Etymological Dictionary of Geʿez which I like to use just gives words as “Gurage”, which sounds like there is a common vocabulary. Fay Freak (talk) 14:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you can deduce from Leslau's literature list which Gurage language he gets his data from? He seems to have written an etymological dictionary of Gurage as well, presumably its foreword could clear things up.
His own field studies. I hade linked his Etymological Dictionary of Gurage (“according to Wolf Leslau” etc.). Fay Freak (talk) 15:23, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As a volunteer project (run on fancy), we really have no other choice than to wait for someone to investigate the matter deeply and order the languages in a manner that facilitates their lexicographical work.
Maybe we need non-genetic language group categories and ways to give forms in unindentified languages belonging to language groups. Crom daba (talk) 15:49, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Fay Freak, -sche: A bit late, but here are my responses to the three outstanding problems (your #2–4):
    1. It is fairly evident that Ancient North Arabian is not a single language, and I advocate that sem-xna be abolished rather than the specific language codes; read Al-Jallad (2018), "What is Ancient North Arabian?". He sees Safaitic (which he has written a grammar of) and Hismaic as being of the same continuum as Old Arabic, but they are obviously too distinct from Classical Arabic for lexicographical purposes. He supports the distinctness of the others as languages, and of the various "Thamudic" lects. Based on Al-Jallad, I would prefer we split Thamudic B, C, D, etc as necessary; each language will have a very small corpus, but it seems like the most honest way to do it, and if more inscriptions are found, the lettered Thamudic wastebaskets will probably get their own names as the others did.
    2. Old South Arabian is also not a single language, though Sabaean was the standard that the other lects imitated, and I advocated that sem-srb be abolished as well. Multhoff (2019) in The Semitic Languages makes the case for four distinct languages: Sabaean, Minaean, Qatabanian, and Hadrami. She makes no mention, however, of Harami. Macdonald (2000), "Reflections on the linguistic map of pre-Islamic Arabia" explains that "Harami" is a name given to a few Sabaean texts that seem to have been contaminated by other Semitic languages, which is not at all an unusual feature and not unique to that site, so I suggest we remove that code.
      1. As for Himyaritic, I now think I was wrong to include it. There are three texts often attributed to it, but see Stein (2008), "The ‘Himyaritic’ Language in Pre-Islamic Yemen", which makes a strong argument to consider these as simply very late examples of Sabaean, which is indisputably the language of the other texts of the region in that script.
    3. Finally, for Gurage, the chief problem is that some scholars follow Hetzron in saying that Gurage is polyphyletic, in which case lumping would be committing a grave error (and the same charge has been levelled for Aramaic, with perhaps more evidence). Meyer (2011) in the International Handbook does seem to support the unity of Gurage, and treats the lects together, which gives me hope for lumping, but he is unwilling to commit to whether they should be considered dialects or languages. I think your Gurage-adding genius is mythical, so we have to choose which is least bad: many languages with scanty coverage, because their forms may be similar to forms entered under a different L2 header; or one Gurage language with decent coverage, but many forms that are not marked for what dialect they belong to and therefore a poor resource. I hesitantly support merger, given those choices. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:13, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    4. An addendum: "Hadrami" is a terrible name for xhd, and invites confusion with Hadrami Arabic. Wikipedia uses "Hadramautic", but N-grams and a quick literature review suggests that "Hadramitic" is more common. @Fay Freak, -sche again (yes, I know I'm pestering, but I don't want to move forward on all this alone, both because I am fallible and because some of these, particularly splitting OSA, would require a bit of work, although in that case there is an online corpus that will help immensely). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:40, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Re North Arabian: Many works I browsed through speak of Old North Arabian as a unit with dialects, but also carefully specify what lects (including Thamudic B vs C, etc) words are attested in. Some imply, in their presentations, that a large number of words are identical between dialects, at least in the sample of vocabulary that they're treating (e.g., the pronouns treated in Roger D. Woodard, The Ancient Languages of Syria-Palestine and Arabia (2008), pages 197-198), though this seems to be because the authors are presenting 'normal', normalized and romanized forms, given Al-Jallad's evidence that words (even the supposedly distinctive definite article) varied not just among dialects but even within the writings of individual speakers. The native script also loses many possible differences in pronunciation, but then, we are a written, writing-based dictionary. I find slightly more works speaking of "Ancient North Arabian dialects" than "Ancient North Arabian languages", and the fact that some authors have argued the varieties are the same language not only as each other but even as Arabic itself does suggest a high degree of similarity (or that the scholars in question are lumpers). As we're dealing with small, extinct and apparently clearly delineated corpora, it seems like the conservative approach of treating each under its own L2 could be better, and we could retire xna ... unless we need it as a wastebasket for unsorted things, which Al-Jallad (and Fay Freak, above) suggests we would. (Bah, It's messy business, deciding what's a language and what's a dialect...) I will try to dig into the rest later. - -sche (discuss) 04:10, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well myself I have added Sabaean, Minaean, Qatabanian entries meanwhile, understanding and quoting a few inscriptions, although apart from some occasional features I noticed little how such an inscription can be classified as either, other than by provenience or rulers or gods mentioned—but that must be due to my blasé comparative approach that also makes me read Romance without recognizing the individual language. So somehow the volition to a merge is gone, though the lumping codes “Old South Arabian” and “Old North Arabian” must be kept for inscriptions no one has classified. Both are useful.

For Himyaritic, however, nothing is left. As here said already, the three alleged Himyaritic inscriptions don’t even need to be in the same language, and they aren’t even from anything to be called Ḥimyar (there are “Lesser Himyarites” and “Greater Himyarites” and the ethnic identity is fragmentary, too, by the way). In the “Critical Reevaluation” of the Ḥimyaritic language – cited by Wikipedia on Himyaritic language one does not know what for: their “undeciphered-k language” header recently introduced is surely a made-up term, oddly suggesting that these inscriptions are yet another language when those “k-language” inscriptions are exactly those otherwise claimed for Himyaritic, so we see Wikipedia editors had no clue and phantasize together languages due to their disdain for primary sources – helpfully includes a map, also coming to the conclusion “we have no reason to assume the existence of some “non-Ṣayhadic” language in pre-Islamic Yemen that was spoken besides the (Late) Sabaic idiom known from the inscriptions.” That from the fact that “Himyaritic” words typically given from Arabic sources are all also found in Sabaic, and the grammar found in the three inscriptions, including the prefixed instead of postfixed article which is only found in two of them, is too either found in Sabaean or can well be ascribed to their being poetry, which is also the reason for their being poorly understood. Many Arabic poems are also hard to understand and mostly helped by the copious material for the language which is not the case for languages with so limited a corpus, like Old South Arabian. Even in the Digests, Latin prose, not all passages are of discoverable meaning.

What would hinder man though to add understood words with quotes from the ominous inscriptions as Sabaean? Or anything from Arabic sources transmitted as Himyaritic instead of Arabic as Sabaean? For there is no evidence for it being a particular language. You see, from the corpus-based standpoint Wiktionary takes Himyaritic must go. Nothing can get the header “Himyaritic”, it can only be mentioned at Sabaean or Old South Arabian entries that Himyaritic nature is suggested by those who have come to believe in this extraordinary claim for which extraordinary evidence is not provided. Fay Freak (talk) 04:18, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I went on and moved our only “Ḥimyaritic” entry after that famous sentence to Yemeni Arabic in which the word طَيِّب(ṭayyib) for “gold” turns out otherwise known, and to be nothing else than Classical Arabic طَيِّب(ṭayyib, good) meaning “refined” and therefore gold, while Old South Arabian could not have developed such sense, so it is clear the famous quote one has been so inept to classify is at best only macaronic Sabaean-Yemenite Arabic. It is well put by Marijn van Putten:
The Arab grammarians were interested in describing correct usage of language of Classical Arabic. It is quite clear that Himyaritic (and by extension Yemeni Arabic) did not fall in the category of 'correct usage'. Within this context, it is of course not surprising that anything that is "wrong" and from Yemen might be denoted as Himyaritic. This would then include both varieties of Yemeni Arabic and some surviving vestiges of Ancient South Arabian. Fay Freak (talk) 04:59, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Now also in a new article by Koutchoukali like communis opinio, though his blogs transpire by him stalking Wiktionary: later Muslim historians would refer to anything related to South Arabia’s pre-Islamic history as “Himyaritic,” all memory of its other states having passed away. Fay Freak (talk) 01:01, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merging Classical Mongolian into Mongolian[edit]

"Classical Mongolian" refers to the literary language of Mongolia used from 17th to 19th century created through a language reform associated with increased Buddhist cultural production (this started in the 16th century, but language standardization took place later). In the 20th century, (outer) Mongolia became independent from China and later adopted a Cyrillic orthography based on the spoken language, while Inner Mongolia kept her Uyghur script.

The literary language of Inner Mongolia continues Classical Mongolian in terms of its orthography as well as most of its grammar (to an extent that Janhunen (?) calls the situation bilingual). Modern varieties, in both Outer and Inner Mongolia, have greatly expanded their lexicons through borrowing of modern terms, but they also both consider all of Classical Mongolian lexicon to be a part of their language, and will put it in their dictionaries, even transcribed into Cyrillic.

The actual problem I have with this division is that when it comes to borrowings from (Classical) Mongolian, we sometimes cannot ascertain whether they precede the 20th century or not, or more common still, we know they precede the 19th century (and post-date the 16th), but they obviously come from a spoken variety and not "Classical Mongolian" as a literary language. Crom daba (talk) 17:14, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I find it also strange that Wiktionary distinguishes Ottoman Turkish from Turkish, it’s like distinguishing pre-1918 Russian from “Russian”, or like one reads about “Ottoman Turks” instead of “Turks”. Also Kazakh and the other Turkic language do not get extra codes for Arabic spelling, this situation is even more comparable, innit. Kazakhs in China write in Arabic script, Mongols in China in Mongolian script, but the languages are two and not four. Or also it sounds as with Pali. Am I correct to assume that Classical Mongolian texts get reedited in Cyrillic script? Then you could base all on Cyrillic and make Mongolian script soft redirects, because even words died out before the introduction of Cyrillic can be found in Cyrillic. Fay Freak (talk) 15:23, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Fay Freak, the situation is similar to Turkish, but it creates less problems there since the Arabic script Turkish is obsolete and most relevant loans are pre-Republican.
In principle it could be possible to collapse all of Mongolian into Cyrillic, but this would be extremely politically incorrect.
Collapsing everything (potentially even Buryat, Daur and Middle Mongolian) into Uyghur script, like we do with Chinese, would perhaps make more sense, but 1) it's a pain to enter 2) Cyrillic is generally more accessible and useful to our users and (Outer) Mongolians 3) most of my materials are in Cyrillic 4) it corresponds poorly to the spoken forms 5) its Unicode encoding corresponds poorly to its actual form 6) the encoding doesn't correspond that well to the spoken form either. Crom daba (talk) 16:50, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is tricky, because as far as language headers and having entries for terms in the language, it seems like we could often resolve which language a word is in(?) by knowing the date of the texts it's attested in. It is, as you say, etymologies where it's hardest to ascertain dates. (Still, if we merged the lects, we could retain an "etymology only" code for borrowings that were clearly from Classical Mongolian, like is done for Classical Persian, etc.) I'm having a hard time finding any references on the mutual intelligibility of the two stages; most references are concerned with the intelligibility or non-intelligibility of modern Khalkha, Kalmyk, etc. If we kept the stages separate, etymologies could always say something like "from Mongolian foo, or a Classical Mongolian forerunner". - -sche (discuss) 22:50, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@-sche, yes, the Persian model would be desirable.
It doesn't make much sense to speak of intelligibility between Classical and Modern Mongolian, Classical Mongolian is exclusively a written language, its spelling reflects the phonology of 13th-century Mongolian (early Middle Mongolian). The same spelling is used in Modern Mongolian as written in Uyghur script.
The biggest problem with Classical Mongolian is how redundant it is. For any word that is shared between modern and classical periods, and that is probably most of the lexicon, we would need to make two identical entries in Uyghur script for modern and classical Mongolian. Crom daba (talk) 11:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That seems not unlike how we handle Serbo-Croatian and Hindi-Urdu. — [ זכריה קהת ] Zack. — 14:25, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. The way we handle them sucks. Crom daba (talk) 12:52, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. All this duplication is a huge waste of resources. Per utramque cavernam 13:22, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not exactly; Serbo-Croatian and Hindi-Urdu have redundant entries in different scripts on different pages, while I understand Crom daba's point to be that we would need to have redundant ==Mongolian== and ==Classical Mongolian== entries on the same pages for most Mongolian/Uyghur script words, which would be more like having duplicate Bosnian and Croatian entries on the same pages, not our current system. And Serbo-Croats are testier about their language(s) being lumped than speakers of Classical Mongolian... ;) - -sche (discuss) 17:29, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OK, does anyone object to the merge? If not, I can try to do it with AutoWikiBrowser later, or Crom or others could start reheadering our small number of Classical Mongolian entries, fixing any wayward translations, etc. For etymologies of terms that are known to derive from Classical Mongolian, we should be able to just move cmg over to Module:etymology languages/data. - -sche (discuss) 17:29, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Crom daba, Fay Freak I made the few ==Classical Mongolian== entries we had into ==Mongolian== entries (labelled "Classical Mongolian" unless there was already a modern Mongolian section on the same page), but many of the categories still need to be deleted, and one needs to check whther anything else is left that would break before "cmg" is moved from being a language code to being an etymology-only code. - -sche (discuss) 02:46, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There's no full correspondence between different Mongolian scripts and none of the scripts is totally phonetic. It's not just the spelling, the phonologies are different but sometimes one script represents the true or historical pronunciation and it's not necessarily Cyrillic, which is strange. There are words that only exist on one or the other, which is quite understandable, cf. modern ᠱᠠᠹᠠ (šafa, sofa) in Inner Mongolia (from 沙發沙发 (shāfā) and софа (sofa, sofa) in outer Mongolia (from софа́ (sofá). I support the merge, though but I am curious if classical Mongolian terms are equally representable in Cyrillic and Arabic scripts. In other words, are there terms in classical Mongolian, which are different from modern and there's no Cyrillic form for them? I think I saw them.
Duplication of entries is a waste. You may think I am biased but I think Mongolian should be presented/lemmatised in Cyrillic (Uyghurjin should also be available in all entries where it can be found) - for which resources are much more accessible. (Serbo-Croatian should be lemmatised on the Roman alphabet, on the other hand, let's finish the senseless duplications of entries)
Also supporting the Ottoman Turkish/Turkish merge. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:25, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Atitarev In Mongol khelnii ikh tailbar toli we see the term уйгуржин бичиг is described as ‘монгол бичгийн дундад эртний үеийн хэлбэр’ (‘early form of the Mongolian/Khudam script’). Middle Mongolian in uigurjin with its own rules shall not to be equated with the later ‘Classical’-Modern script and orthography. I maintain uigurjin (with its specific glyph forms and spelling rules) shall be treated as a term only for Middle Mongolian.
Similarly I also object treating Northern Yuan – Qing (‘Classical’) Mongolian and Modern Mongolian-script Mongolian as one literary language standard. In fact orthographic standardisations and modifications make written Modern Mongolian such different from Classical. Personally I’d like to display a historical feature of this language collectively under ‘Classical Mongolian’, as only this term directly interlinks with an Inner Asian historical and linguistic tradition. LibCae (talk) 16:40, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

December 2018[edit]

Renaming agu[edit]

We currently call this "Aguacateca", but "Aguacateco" is much more common. (Wikipedia opts for "Awakatek", which is rapidly becoming more common but is probably not there yet — not that we can't be crystal-ballsy if we want to when it comes to names rather than entries.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:42, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You're right that several modern (and a few older) sources seem to use Awakatek. In turn, historically Aguacatec has been used in the titles of many reference works on it, and seems like it may be the most common name (ngrams), although it's also the name of the people-group. (Others: Awakateko, Awaketec, Qa'yol, Kayol, and variously spellings of Chalchitec sometimes considered a distinct lect.) - -sche (discuss) 04:31, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 2019[edit]

"comparative adjectives" > "adjective comparative forms"[edit]

Apparently there was a recent vote to remove the ambiguity of comparative and superlative categories. What I don't understand is why the name "comparative adjectives" was chosen, which suggests a lemma category, yet it's now being subcategorised under non-lemmas. Lemma subcategories are named "xxx POSs", as can be seen in Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lemmas. Non-lemma subcategories are named "POS xxx forms", visible in Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/non-lemma forms. Therefore, the obvious place for comparative forms of adjectives is the "adjective comparative forms" category we used to have. The new name, although voted on, stands out as an exception among all of our existing categories and is inconsistent. It should therefore either be renamed back to reflect its non-lemma status, or it should be moved back under its original lemma parent category. —Rua (mew) 23:57, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Surjection, ErutuonRua (mew) 00:09, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The vote was here: Wiktionary:Votes/2018-07/Restructure comparative and superlative categories. — Eru·tuon 00:13, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Participles are not lemmas yet they are called "(language) participles", so it's not as if the comparatives/superlatives would exactly be exceptions of some kind. They even have their own "participle forms" categories! The former also applies to gerunds. — surjection?⟩ 09:13, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And to make it clear, "adjective/adverb comparative/superlative forms" categories are to be made obsolete as a direct result of the vote. — surjection?⟩ 09:16, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and that should be undone, because as I said, the name "comparative adjectives" suggests that they are lemmas because of our existing naming scheme. Participles are non-lemmas by virtue of being participles, but adjectives are lemmas, so "comparative adjectives" are also lemmas. Are you implicitly proposing to rename all non-lemma categories to this new scheme, e.g. "dual adjectives", "plural nouns", "possessive nouns", "feminine adjectives"? If the vote is upheld then I will propose this change to make things consistent again. —Rua (mew) 12:00, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[