User talk:Ysrael214

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Etymology Source

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Hey, if you got the etymologies from Potet, could you add it as reference in the entry itself? Could you add them to all the applicable edits you did? Thanks. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:58, 18 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Ysrael214: Going back here, it would be easier if you just added resources to all the etymology edits you made, so I won't have to start a discussion entry each time. Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:41, 19 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214: Here's the list of edits that you've made so far: https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Ysrael214&offset=&limit=500&target=Ysrael214 --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 11:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214: So far, I've seen tanikala, panata, luksa, salanta, panibugho, dalang, patis, kulong, banal, dalas, butil, lupalop, alaga, alipusta, palamuti, kawani as having etymologies from unknown sources. Could you identify? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 11:44, 19 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Mar vin kaiser
  • Tanikala is from Tagalog Borrowings and Cognates (TBC) p. 299, Potet references Monier-Williams Dictionary (MW) p. 1087 for śṛṅkhala and MW p. 435 for tanikā. Also in Malay Borrowings in Tagalog by John Wolff, Soundshifts in Some Dialects of the Philippines by Eugene Verstraelen. The khara (hard) came from the Wiktionary page of śṛṅkhala that khara may refer to iron materials.
  • Luksa is from TBC p. 288.
  • Salanta is from An Essay Towards a Historical Description of Tagalog and Cebuano Bisaya (Verstraelen) by Eugene Verstraelen, page 493 of Philippine Studies Vol. 8, No. 3 (JULY 1960). Also sa+randa may be unlikely as the /d/ from saranda may shift to /d/,/r/,/l/,/g/, or /j/ but less probable to be /t/
  • Panibugho is from https://www.trussel2.com/ACD/acd-s_b.htm#33780 and TBC p. 66.
  • Dalang is from https://www.trussel2.com/ACD/acd-s_z.htm#28786 and An Essay Towards a Historical Description of Tagalog and Cebuano Bisaya, but jarang and dalang may just be cognates and not direct borrowing as I forgot where I got that from.
  • Patis is from https://www.trussel2.com/ACD/acd-lo_f.htm?zoom_highlight=patis#fis
  • kulong is from https://www.trussel2.com/ACD/acd-s_k.htm#31683 and Verstraelen reference, TBC 106. They're just cognates, not confirmed to be borrowed sorry.
  • banal is from https://www.trussel2.com/ACD/acd-s_b.htm#25321.
  • dalas is from TBC p. 70, *darás https://www.trussel2.com/ACD/acd-s_d.htm?zoom_highlight=dalas, *deRas https://www.trussel2.com/ACD/acd-s_d.htm#33387 and doublet *deRes https://www.trussel2.com/ACD/acd-s_d.htm#2234. If they're doublets they must have a same source of which I infered could be Sanskrit, though unconfirmed but references the swiftness of water.
  • butil is only cognate, from TBC p. 68
  • lupalop is from Potet's Tagalog Monosyllabic Roots, and Core Etymological Dictionary of Filipino by David Zorc.
  • alaga also from Malay Borrowings in Tagalog by John Wolff. Also Core Etymological Dictionary of Filipino by David Zorc.
  • alipusta, from Core Etymological Dictionary of Filipino by David Zorc. Also Malay Borrowings in Tagalog, John Wolff
  • palamuti, based on the meaning of buti in Core Etymological Dictionary of Filipino by David Zorc. Originally also meant decorations, confirmed by diksiyonariyo.ph. Sanskrit reference only a possibility based on sound shifts if it's not based on Tagalog prefix pala- but from Sanskrit prefix pra-.
  • kawani from Core Etymological Dictionary of Filipino by David Zorc. Also TBC p. 103.
Ysrael214 (talk) 15:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214: Please, when you add new etymologies, could you also add the references below? Tell me if you don't know how. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:26, 25 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Mar vin kaiser Yes I don't know how. All my changes today are from Indian Influences In The Philippines With Special Reference To Language And Literature, by Juan R. Francisco. 1963. All files are here: https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/278294. I cross-check with Tagalog Borrowings and Cognates. Ysrael214 (talk) 08:30, 25 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214: For anyaya, which page is it in the Juan R. Francisco source? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:47, 25 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Mar vin kaiser page 50 of the Francisco source (Chapter 3). Coincidentally also page 50 of Potet's TBC. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:53, 25 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
So here's a list of the resources I've seen so far, every time you use a source, you can copy paste the part where it's cited in another entry:
  1. Tagalog Borrowings and Cognates by Jean-Paul Potet (found in anyaya, change the page)
  2. Indian Influences In The Philippines With Special Reference To Language And Literature (found in anyaya, change the chapter and page)
  3. Core etymological dictionary of Filipino by David Zorc (found in kawani, it seems like there are several versions of this, but we can change the version with year and page and the url)
  4. Austronesian Comparative Dictionary‎ by Robert Blust and Stphen Trussel (found in singsing)
  5. Malay borrowings in Tagalog by John U. Wolff (found in salamuha, change the page)
If I missed a source, I can create a cite template for that, just tag me! I hope you don't mind, it's helpful for future editors to know where the source originates, so they can go back to it to check if it was copied correctly or if it's accurate. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:37, 25 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214: Did you understand how to add a source in the entry? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:03, 29 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214: Oh, nevermind, I see you're adding reference. Thanks. I hope you understand, since we gotta keep the info added here as verifiable as possible. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
Discussion moved to Talk:sasmu.

Baybayin

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@Ysrael214 I see you've been adding Baybayin spellings to words. I think we need to have a discussions about that. The Baybayin you place in each entry (just like Jawi spelling placed in Malay entries, Cyrillic spelling places in Croatian entries, Javanese script places in Javanese entries) need to be based on the Latin spelling of the current word. If there exists a Baybayin spelling (attested) that can be connected phonetically to the same entry, I think that can be placed as an alternative. But if there exists old Baybayin spellings corresponding to an obsolete or older variant of the Tagalog word (especially in terms of pronunciation, meaning the pronunciation is different), it should be placed in that entry. Or else, it would be messy. Please tell me if I understood what you're doing, because I noticed that you're trying to get at the original Baybayin spelling of the words. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:47, 13 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Mar vin kaiser You are correct. I agree, that the alternative forms are there instead for the original Baybayin spelling and better stick to the "what the pronunciation is its spelling" principle. (Kung anong bigkas ay syang baybay)
Thank you. I'll change the Baybayin terms to be that from now on. Ysrael214 (talk) 13:58, 13 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

Rizal dialectal variants

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@Ysrael214 I see you've been adding Rizal stuff. Are these from published sources, personal knowledge, or provided by a Rizal speaker? Thanks. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:29, 27 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Mar vin kaiser Rizal speakers yes, I've been watching Rizaleño vlogs lately for this (especially for pronunciation), example one Youtube channel named "Siklistang Rizaleño". Checking social media as well to confirm. Also I double check if these are also used casually and verify if the one that posted really lived in Rizal. Because some Facebook posts about Morong, Cardona, and the like using R instead of D are sometimes deceptive even going as far as "RUNKIN RONUT" but apparently that's an exaggeration according to some so need to confirm that they use some words outside of such posts. Some are from published sources too yes (ex. Mga Morposintaktikong Katangian ng Tagalog na Sinasalita sa Morong, Rizal: https://pages.upd.edu.ph/vasantiago/presentations/mga-morposintaktikong-katangian-ng-tagalog-na-sinasalita-sa-morong-rizal). Others here: https://www.angelfire.com/ms/lsmweb/mdad.html at the "Panimula" page Some social media posts are from government pages (like Bureau of Fire Protection, Rizal Gov page itself), some religious institution, some gas station page, and I find at least 3 instances of each word then I can inductively infer that this is real. Of course this has to be in Tagalog use, not like Bisaya or other language that looks alike.
Based on observation, (haven't found a legitimate source that this is indeed the case), the /d/ > /r/ isn't one way but rather it's an allophone. I heard daan and raan in a single video so it's not just a single variant.
Most words (?, I only added here what I verified) with in standard Tagalog that has an /l/ or /r/ in the word that also has a "d" that is not at the end of the word can't be replaced with an "r". Else, based on observation, are free to replace.
Although some are only found in certain areas and some are not (example Cardona has isra but Morong still uses isda, I found a blog that specifically stated this, it's a radio station blog I forgot which but take my word for it, I'll find it later)
So these are valid (and verified):
Initial /d/ (Valid)
ramo, ribrib, ragat, rahon, ramit, ramram, rungaw, ragrag, ringring
Medial /d/ (Valid)
bunrok, paryak, hagran, tanra, tinri, kunri, hinri, ganra, sunro, sanrok
Ending /d/ (Valid)
tungkor, pagor, tamar, hubar, anor, nuor, sunor, kapatir, agar
Words with /l/ but the /d/ is not at the end position (Invalid)
rilim, rila, ralral, kirlat, bunrol, raloy, ralaw, ralawa (should still be dilim, dila, daldal, kidlat, daloy, dalaw, dalawa; you can't search "bang rilim" only "bang dilim")
Words with /l/ but the /d/ is at the end position
likor, lakar, lunor, luhor, lahar, unlar, salursor, alibarbar, hilor
"di" (no) is maintained as "di", not "ri" but can become "hinri" if used as "hindi" sometimes.
Loan words (or affixes) are maintained as is. Problemado does not become "problemaro" (the Rizal speaker in the videos still said some /d/ sound but it kinda sounds like a /ð/ or /ɖ/ somewhat. Though, edad became "idar".
Clusters are maintained as they fall in the (Words with /l/ not in initial position) rule so they stay as is
for ex. droga will still be droga and not r-roga or whatever you should hypothetically pronounce that. Besides clusters are often only in loan words as well so they aren't replaced.
I made a lot of checks to ensure that each word here is indeed used, some can be searched via some added affixes or phrase like "pag-unlar, maunlar, masamang ramo, pagparyak, nakakatamar, magbababar" Ysrael214 (talk) 15:21, 27 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

J spellings in Maranao

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Just a note, Maranao /d͡ʒ/ (only in loanwords) can be either be "DI/DIY" (Abakada-based spelling) or "J" (new spelling). I just added some entries that made use of it, such as the days of the week (e.g. Jamat) and Islamic calendar months (e.g. Rajab). TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 15:00, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko Yes I'm aware of the j/di case. No standard orthography right? I followed http://sealang.net/maranao/dictionary.htm which writes Jamat as Diyama'at. Although that dictionary does not follow the ë schwa lettering of the KWF, maybe we should follow KWF rules this time using "j", since they prescribe it in the MMP, but I haven't seen an orthography document from them on Mëranaw yet. Though that's just my thoughts. If we possibly know some Maranao people, what they most use often is probably preferred since other languages reject the KWF style too. Ysrael214 (talk) 15:13, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Maybe we can go with J spellings this time and move most cases where justified by the etymology (usually such terms are from Arabic and Malay). Not sure if this is also used in DepEd mother-tongue education material. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 15:19, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Although some words I see are using both "di" in Mëranaw Facebook pages, like ladiyawan (larawan, model). Though I'm not sure if that's supposed to be a j or pronounced "di-ya" separately. Then again, they use "J" as well in Arabic names. Ysrael214 (talk) 15:38, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Do you have access to this? https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lNstTBSAIapiHjQb8ukS-S-GjJLSlvUa/view?usp=share_link and https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EiEpi9AWTw_wEq-YEFQ0nNwapNcOhmjz/view?usp=share_link Please download them, I'll remove them from my drive.
Maybe with Spanish loans like "midiyas" and "diyaryo", "diy" is kept, but with Arabic loans it's a "J"? "hadji" and "masjid" is kept here. Ysrael214 (talk) 16:04, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

Tagalog proverbs

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I'm currently working on common Tagalog proverbs, but can you help me with finding English equivalents? Any sources beside the Philippine Proverb Lore and Talinghagang bukambibig? I'll be adding also a appendix to fill with common ones and English equivalence. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:01, 7 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko No idea sorry. All I know is kung anong puno, siyang bunga is the apple does not fall far from the tree. Ysrael214 (talk) 13:39, 7 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

edi wow

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Any idea about English equivalent for this slang interjection (edi wow!)? I was about to create an entry for this, but I'm lost in translation. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:55, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko Literally, Then, wow. but I don't think it has an English equivalent so a non-gloss definition can be made to make it look like a sarcastic expression of approval. Like saying "very nice" sarcastically. Also I think the "edi" is an "eh di", "eh" is that particle like "Ganun kasi eh", and "di" is not "No, not" but the other definition meaning an emphasis particle (like diumano, it's not a "not" meaning). See Vocabulario de la lengua tagala 1860. "Sino pa bang maglilinis ng kuwarto? Di ako!" Ysrael214 (talk) 14:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

Core Etymological Dictionary of Filipino

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Just created a reference template for the Core Etymological Dictionary of Filipino (see {{R:CEDOF}}), but still missing some other of the series (5 or maybe 6 and more?). Please add links to those. Thanks!-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 07:41, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko Isn't it only up to four? I'm not aware. Ysrael214 (talk) 07:44, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
I think yes. Maybe it's me haven't looked at all if they have entries beginning with other letters. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 07:45, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Just checked everything, I think we're missing books beyond part 4. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:11, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Please follow up with the missing books beyond 4. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 22:18, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko No idea. Zorc only has 4 in his website. I think it was unfinished if ever. Ysrael214 (talk) 22:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Maybe that's all so far. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 22:23, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

ek-ek and eklabu

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Any idea about what these slang terms mean, and are these related? To me, the former seems to be derived from the latter. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:28, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

Seems like eklabu can be found in Zorc; it's looks like it's dated this time. For ek-ek, I have no idea what it means and uncertain if it's a derivative of eklabu.
TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:31, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko gay slangs kiyeme > ekyem > ek-ek > eklabu, like churva churvalu or whatever you can add churvakakatit (made up that one, as long people get the sense that it's from churva) Ysrael214 (talk) 08:34, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Double-checked Tagalog Slang Dictionary, but eklabu isn't there; seems to be a 2000s-early 2010s coinage (can't remember who popularized it). Ek-ek is. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:52, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko You can search for eklavu online and it would give the same meaning as kiyeme (joke, lie). Ysrael214 (talk) 09:16, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

tao lang, nagkakamali

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Isn't this the Tagalog equivalent for nobody's perfect? I'm considering an entry, but still unsure. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 07:51, 11 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko Could also be a translation yes. Ysrael214 (talk) 08:22, 11 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
GBooks or search hits?
TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:27, 11 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Experience. Another direct translation is "walang perpektong tao" Ysrael214 (talk) 09:05, 11 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
And there's also "walang perpekto sa mundo" (nothing is perfect in the world). Just have a short GBooks search, but only got 3 visible hits. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 09:06, 11 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko "Walang perpekto" has a lot of hits. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:32, 11 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Added it to the translations, alongside "tao lang, nagkakamali". The latter seems to be a recent one. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 09:36, 11 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Discussion moved to Talk:gutom lang iyan.

maging bato

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English equivalent for this? As in "ang kanyang pinaghirapan niya ay naging bato". TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 01:43, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko Is it an idiom? I mean right now I can understand context-wise that it meant the efforts probably are shattered or got wasted, but I never heard of it such as a common phrase. I'm reading it right now as a poetic metaphor. Literally means petrified Ysrael214 (talk) 01:45, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Yes, something that I do hear in some KMJS stories.
TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 01:51, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Outside of that, do you hear it as well? I'm not sure if it needs an entry though since it's not as common. Ysrael214 (talk) 01:55, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
I'll look into GBooks for that. Might also be in "Talinghagang bukambibig".
TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:06, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Looks like this is a reference to "kuwarta na naging bato pa" from a GBooks search (ignoring hits mostly referring to Ibong Adarna).
TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:15, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Pls follow up. See above. Have you heard of that one, "kuwarta na, naging bato pa" or its variants? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 19:58, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko I haven't. But if it's a common saying then why not. Ysrael214 (talk) 02:40, 24 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Discussion moved to Talk:weh.

akala kung sino

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Any idea about translations for this? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:11, 2 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko "(He/She) thinks/acts like someone special/important". Not sure if you should do a non-gloss definition.
Can I have a favor, if you're going to ask related things about English translations, can you do a single thread and you can just ask there multiple things? Thanks. Ysrael214 (talk) 03:32, 2 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Ah, maybe that's best equaled to "feeling entitled". I thought of that as the best fit, but still have some questions. that's another one I have a hard time to translate to English. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:09, 2 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko ayt Ysrael214 (talk) 06:25, 2 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
What? "Ah yata" or so? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:26, 2 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Following this up, I already created its entry, the main problem being a good translation or gloss.
TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 20:32, 1 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

"war freak"

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Is this another common Philippinism, equivalent to "bellicose"? Do this also have naturalized spelling? --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:11, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko I guess so. palaaway. I don;t use it a lot but it seems existing. Ysrael214 (talk) 21:32, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Last heard of this in one episode of Batang Quiapo. And yes, this may not have naturalized spelling, but has Tagalog equivalent. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:35, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Is this something we can have entry about? Already in the PH English appendix here, but still don't have entry. Only problem is with finding attestation. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:37, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Is this actually spelled "war freak"? as one word? or different? searched it using GBooks, but found none. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:41, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko warfreak is more common but war freak can be an alt form. Yes, okay to be an entry.
The case for "walang label", it's just the one that needs an entry is the English label.
It's like saying "walang Facebook" = not updated Ysrael214 (talk) 21:46, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Any attestations? My previous effort found none or so for some reason. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:49, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko https://www.google.com.ph/books/edition/If_I_were_the_President/Oy1fEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=warfreak&pg=PA213&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.com.ph/books/edition/When_Miss_Genius_Gone_Mad/kKjsDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=warfreak&pg=PA113&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.com.ph/books/edition/The_XL_Beauty_2_Double_Trouble/g1dmEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=warfreak&pg=PA118&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.com.ph/books/edition/How_To_Be_An_Almost_Perfect_Bf_Gf/Vg_uDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=warfreak&pg=PA37&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.com.ph/books/edition/Burning_Poems/hpJLEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=warfreak&pg=PA182&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.com.ph/books/edition/The_Good_Girl_s_Revenge/XDhTEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=warfreak&pg=PA53&printsec=frontcover Ysrael214 (talk) 21:54, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Already created under warfreak. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 22:55, 20 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Cebuano entry cleanup

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Maybe you could help with cleaning up Cebuano entries since Carl was back now. Lots of problems with duplication, missing IPA, or bad formatting. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:31, 28 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko I can't sorry, I don't know much about Cebuano. Also, I have a lot of things to do as well. Ysrael214 (talk) 12:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
It's just entry cleanup. Lots of issues with formatting.
TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 19:29, 28 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

module:bcl-pron/sandbox

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working on an upgrade of the Bikol Central pronunciation module, but can't implement changes yet due to some error on some function. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 05:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Just fixed this. Test case and the template that deploys the module for Bikol is outdated. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Ayt. Ysrael214 (talk) 11:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)Reply
Still here. Module's ok and working, it's just the template that needs update (kind of stuck on version based on older version {{es-IPA}}). TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 11:17, 3 July 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Also not familiar with Bicol enough to know what to edit Ysrael214 (talk) 11:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Paaralang sekundarya

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Discussion moved to Talk:paaralang sekundarya.

kaladkarin as slang

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Discussion moved to Talk:kaladkarin.

/u/ and /w/, and /i/ and /j/ merger in module:tl-pron

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To reply to your deleted post on module talk:tl-pron it's not from the Spanish one but copied from the derivative Cebuano IPA module that does just that. But I can have the previous one restored once I look into words that have new IPA very different from actual pronunciation. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 18:06, 13 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Kapampangan resources

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We have already 800+ Kapampangan entries, but do you have any other resources of Kapampangan? I primarily look into Bergaño's dictionary and sometimes Diksiyonaryo.ph, but there's also this American-era Kapampangan-Tagalog-English dictionary I'm looking right now. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 19:16, 1 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko I know that dictionary, there's also another source I look at but I forgot the title. In the meantime, try this: https://www.google.com.ph/books/edition/Gramatica_q%C3%B1g_sabing_castila_t_capampan/8jlHAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0 Ysrael214 (talk) 07:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
Also I just found this American-era Kapampangan dictionary. See {{R:Parker 1905}}. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 07:34, 7 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Found it. This one by Dimalanta.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=miun.aqh7543.0001.001&seq=6 Ysrael214 (talk) 07:42, 7 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

lambutsi

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Have heard of this recently. Not a recent word, but do you know what this one mean? Can't find this on either Diksiyonaryo.ph or KWF Diksiyonaryo. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:22, 2 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko Do you mean lambuching/lambutsing? It's a slang word. flirting. Ysrael214 (talk) 10:02, 2 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Basically lambing. Ysrael214 (talk) 10:10, 2 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
To be exact, there's also lambutsihin.
TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 14:51, 2 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Google gave zero hits on lambutsihin. Is the spelling correct? Or what context did you hear it? Ysrael214 (talk) 16:28, 2 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
Maybe I misheard it. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 17:04, 2 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Quezon people says it means "seduction". How did you hear it? Does the context apply? Ysrael214 (talk) 19:02, 18 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

alagwas

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Any idea what this slang term means? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:30, 8 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko no Ysrael214 (talk) 09:59, 8 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
Have heard of it. It's usually in its affixed form umalagwas. Like something recent. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 18:54, 8 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Seems to be similar with alagwa (breakaway, free flying, skyrocketing) Ysrael214 (talk) 22:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r975JjogZA Ysrael214 (talk) 22:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
I checked with the Tagalog Slang Dictionary, but can't find this one. Must be recent.TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 22:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko I checked Facebook for umalagwas and seem to mean going up, which is the same as alagwa. Ysrael214 (talk) 22:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
So like alagwa and alagwas are the same. Next question is when they exactly first appeared? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 22:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko No idea. Ysrael214 (talk) 00:36, 9 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Kapampangan spelling question

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Just asking what letters are included in the Batiauan (revised Guagua) orthography for Kapampangan. W is not present, (but K is used in place of C or Q+U as in Bacolor spelling and in proper nouns), but what about some letters and digraphs from Spanish such as CH, LL, Ñ or RR? This is for TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:26, 17 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko Well in proper nouns, orthography doesn't really apply, Macabebe doesn't get written to Makabebe since Macabebe was the standard name already. However for indiginization, ch -> ti/ty, ll -> li / ly (i is more prefered than y after consonants but Batiauan allows it, batyauan is valid for ex.), ñ -> ni/ny, rr is just... I can't think of Kapampangan words that would need rr except proper nouns. Ysrael214 (talk) 08:56, 17 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
Also the other issue is with when to use E/I and O/U in the case of loanwords, but I usually lean toward I and U at word-end positions. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 09:03, 17 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko End position yes i and u. Maybe find attestations first before putting? Ysrael214 (talk) 09:13, 17 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
Ah ok, like E and O is reserved for what becomes AY or AU when suffixed. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 09:14, 17 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Then again sigé and kapé retains the e at the end. Maybe, it's the ultimate stress? Not sure yet. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:27, 17 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Favor

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Because of personal reasons, I don't edit as much. Could you monitor Tagalog edits for me instead? Basically, monitor regularly if there are any edits that are not from the usual editors (you know who they are), and check if their edits are 1. vandalism, 2. needs heavy revision, 3. needs verification. You don't have to deal with them immediately, but maybe list them down? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks! Mar vin kaiser (talk) 03:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Mar vin kaiser Sure, but I only see edits via my watchlist or if it notifs me. How do you see the latest edits though? Also, will you still be taggable or what? Ysrael214 (talk) 10:32, 25 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
Use this link to check the newest edits. You can tag me if you want. I'll respond. : https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?hidebots=1&hidecategorization=1&hideWikibase=1&target=Category%3ATagalog+lemmas&limit=1000&days=15&enhanced=1&title=Special:RecentChangesLinked&urlversion=2 --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:17, 25 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Mar vin kaiser By the way, I'm thinking of taking a wikibreak (or just slow down) in a month or two from now, maybe you can check Tagalog from time to time again. Ysrael214 (talk) 05:29, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Mar vin kaiser Do start using {{tl-pr}} instead of {{tl-IPA}} from now on if ever. Ysrael214 (talk) 05:32, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214: Sure, I'll try. About the two templates, what's the difference? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:23, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Mar vin kaiser {{tl-pr}} automatically generates rhymes, homophone, and syllabification Ysrael214 (talk) 15:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Mar vin kaiser I'd be starting my break start of June. Thanks! Ysrael214 (talk) 11:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

umuwi nang luhaan

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is this some idiom, or just a SOP? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 10:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko SOP. Just sent home crying in general. could be metaphor but can just be placed with luhaan. Ysrael214 (talk) 14:50, 16 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

backrider and backride

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Any source for uses of this? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:25, 13 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko Google provides tons of results? Ysrael214 (talk) 10:38, 13 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Isn't this the "angkas" tandem? Bike or motorcycle? Ysrael214 (talk) 10:45, 13 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
mostly for those in motorcycle. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 11:33, 13 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
I don't know the background of this question but "backrider" is used in Republic Act No. 11235: "Backrider refers to any person or persons seated at the back of a motorcycle, or a passenger of a motorcycle" (see Section 3 "definitions") tbm (talk) 10:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Tbm @TagaSanPedroAko I also don't know the background. Why is he asking me for sources when the entries aren't created yet? Is he expecting me to create those entries? Though, he can create them himself. Ysrael214 (talk) 11:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

"stock knowledge"

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hearing this being used back in the good old school days, is this worthy of some entry here? another Philippinism? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko Yes. Ysrael214 (talk) 18:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

kamay

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I made two Templates for the Entry kamay at the Tagalog Edition of Wiktionary for the Tibetan and Burmese languages.

One of them could be "Birmano" but what could be used for Tibetan? -- Apisite (talk) 08:38, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Apisite Tibetano or Tibetan is fine but usually Spanish is prefered. Ysrael214 (talk) 08:55, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I made one of the Templates as "Tibetano" at the Tagalog Edition, but one User didn't like the two Templates I made over there. --Apisite (talk) 08:57, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

langlangin

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Any idea of glossing or translating this one? As in "huwag mong nilalanglang iyan". The root is certainly lang, repeated, but can't think of any good translation. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 11:02, 26 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko Should be lang-langin, I think. Something like.. synonym of maliitin, belittling. Ysrael214 (talk) 11:09, 26 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

PH English matured

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as in this sentence, "he looks matured" or "matured siya". PH English-specific? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:32, 11 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko It means the same as standard English. (grown up) Ysrael214 (talk) 04:19, 11 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the clarification. I'm working with more PH-related entries (trying to think of PhE regional usages we're still missing).
TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 04:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Tagalog pronunciation sections

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While a newer Tagalog pronunciation template that will automatically add hyphenation and rhymes is still in the works (using an expanded module:tl-pron), if doing pronunciation, we should place the IPA before the hyphenation/syllabification following WT:Entry layout. A lot of entries currently have the hyphenation come before the IPA transcription; those I came up are edited accordingly. My newer entries follow that formatting. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 09:09, 19 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko I'm aware but I'm not following because I know it would be automatically changed one day to the proper order automatically. Ysrael214 (talk) 10:25, 19 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

mekus-mekus

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obviously from English mix, do this hot word deserve a place here in Wiktionary already? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 22:53, 20 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko I think it's fine but have a hot word template placed. Ysrael214 (talk) 23:01, 20 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I can recall it's an Indian Filipino vlogger who coined and popularized it, but can't recall his name, the thing is his last name is Singh. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:03, 20 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
just created its entry. amazingly, it's already listed in tl-Wikt before en-Wikt did. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:02, 6 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Siyokoy/Tagalog pseudo-hispanism agains

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any thoughts about when the hundreds of pseudo-Hispanic terms can remain as pseudo-loan, since looks like the proscription against such terms died down with the departure of Almario from the KWF in 2021? Well, terms that Almario would have labeled "siyokoy" exist in either Diksiyonaryo.ph/UPDF and KWF Diksiyonaryo, such as polisiya, polusyon and populasyon. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 01:11, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko well we can still state the etymology for it i guess, i dont think we ever proscribed siyokoy words in Wiktionary though? We just stated how things came to be. Not sure how things were when @Mar vin kaiser was still editing Tagalog entries often. Ysrael214 (talk) 01:36, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko: Even though it's not a proscription, it's a useful category to see, in my opinion, all the words that are not from Spanish, but made to sound Spanish. It's not in the definition label, but in the etymology. So I think the status quo is okay. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:40, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm okay with it, the thing being the two big monolingual dics for Tagalog have some terms that Almario would have been dismissed as pseudo-Hispanism and should not be listed on either. There is no entry for things like kontemporaryo on either but there are things such as the likes of polisiya on Diksiyonaryo (it's listed as a synonym for patakaran if I recall correctly).
TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 01:50, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko @Mar vin kaiser Instead of talk pages discussing Tagalog matters, why wont we use the talk page of Wiktionary talk:About Tagalog. I think it's more appropriate there. Ysrael214 (talk) 02:53, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
There was already a previous related discussion there. I'll be OK moving this there. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Tagalog orthography

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Aside from the restoration of Pilipinas as the official Tagalog/Filipino name of the Philippines and the use of Pilipino for "Filipino" except for the sense of national language, I think Tagalog as of 2021 is observing the rules laid out in the 2013 Ortograpiyang Pambansa (the one used in creating the entries at KWF Diksiyonaryo online, and also the one I can remember to find in Filipino textbook for high school) minus some addenda from the 2014 Manwal by Almario. I already updated the Tagalog spellings page to reflect that. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 01:19, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

maliwanag sa sikat ng araw

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just came upon this expression, usually as "maliwanag pa sa sikat ng araw". I have an equivalent English in mind, but can't remember what it is. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 22:06, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

just forget it. I found a similar expression, clear as daylight and plain as day. attpted to find it in KWF Diksiyonaryo, but can't find it under the associated idioms for either "maliwanag", "sikat" and "araw". TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 22:09, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Module errors

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Your changes to Module:tl-headword have apparently interacted with Module:documentation to cause module errors on the template pages for {{tl-adj}} and {{tl-verb}}, but not those for any of the other templates that use that module. I'm not sure what specifically is causing it, but it's been that way for a few days. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Chuck Entz Didn't notice. I'll check. Thanks. Ysrael214 (talk) 02:19, 13 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Chuck Entz Fixed. parenthesis issue. Ysrael214 (talk) 02:21, 13 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Module:phi-headword help

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Hi. So far Module:phi-headword supports eight languages (Tagalog, Bikol Central, Cebuano, Hiligaynon, Ilocano, Kapampangan, Pangasinan and Waray-Waray). It can support others without too much difficulty but I have some questions:

  1. What languages are missing? I see there's IPA support at least for Chavacano, Kinaray-a and Maguindanao. Any others?
  2. I tried to maintain compatibility with the existing language-specific headword modules in terms of which inflectional parameters are accepted by nouns, verbs and adjectives, but I have a suspicion some of the existing differences do not actually reflect differences in the grammars of the respective languages but are simply random differences due to whatever the implementor of the module in question felt like supporting. For example, Tagalog and Bikol Central verbs support complete, progressive, contemplative and verbal noun; Hiligaynon and Waray-Waray verbs support realis, imperative, diminutive, causative and frequentative; Ilocano and Pangasinan support perfective, imperfective, past imperfective and future; Cebuano supports inchoative and imperative; and Kapampangan supports perfective and progressive. Can you give me the complete set of tense/aspect/mood inflections supported by each language? I'd like to harmonize them as much as possible. There are similar issues with nouns and adjectives, and an additional issue is that Bikol Central has support for plural inflections for *ALL* parts of speech (even adverbs); (a) is this correct and (b) do any other languages work this way?

Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 01:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I am not familiar with the grammar of other ph languages but maybe you can answer this? @TagaSanPedroAko @Mar vin kaiser
@Benwing2 Other languages that come to mind besides your examples are Maranao and Tausug. There are more Philippine languages than that for sure but I'm not sure if they have a lot of entries or are they edited a lot in Wiktionary.
I'll get back to you. Thanks. Ysrael214 (talk) 05:09, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

cleaning up Pronunciation N headers

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There are several Tagalog entries using Pronunciation N headers. A lot of them are misformatted or inconsistently formatted, stemming from the fact that WT:ELE (which generally lays out what is allowed) makes no mention of such headers. Generally they should be converted either to Etymology N headers (if the etymologies are different) or have the pronunciations combined into a single Pronunciation section with qualifiers used to distinguish the senses (if the etymologies are really the same). Can you help with some of these? At least I'd like to deal with the ones that currently contain both Etymology N headers and Pronunciation N headers because they are a real mess. However, I don't know much about Tagalog etymology so it's not always clear to me whether two sections belong to the same etymology. For example lubigan with Pronunciation 1 meaning "home base" or "to score a home run" and Pronunciation 2 meaning sweet flag are almost certainly different etymologies, but it's less clear for lubo, which has three Pronunciation N sections, respectively meaning "grouper (a kind of fish)", "dimple" and "deep depression in the ground". I could guess the second and third are related but the first is unrelated, but it would be just a guess. Can you point me to some good Tagalog etymology dictionaries, hopefully some that are available online? Thanks! BTW (at least) the following have a mixture of Etymology N and Pronunciation N: baba, balino, baliw, bilo, bubo, latok, liha, luto, paalam, sala, tapon, uli. Benwing2 (talk) 07:19, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 Err... I'm aware of this issue yes. We've been slowly fixing this on our free times. See more here:
User talk:Mar vin kaiser#Pronunciation order (apparently this was even in 2022)
But it's kinda complicated. Some are easy to group by etymology because some are just a stress shift to know if they are a different part of speech (like English RE-cord and re-CORD, see lutang), which for me, relies if the meanings are related. Also unlike English, there wasn't a simplification from Middle English record (noun), recorden (verb) that you can see the split of etymology easily. Otherwise, it's okay to split them to different etymologies for the mean time and merge them if needed in the future. For some words however, like baba really is from the same Proto-Austronesian root but the stress makes the difference. We could make it the approach with how we did the pronunciation at tabla but it's hard sometimes to encapsulate everything in the caption but it would solve the pronunciation layout issue.
For the etymological dictionaries, there's not much really. I mainly rely in the Austronesian Comparative Database for native words:
https://www.trussel2.com/ACD/acd-l_t.htm#Tagalog
If it sounds Spanish or English, that would also be easy to recognize. Ysrael214 (talk) 08:33, 23 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

changing argument structure of Template:tl-pr

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Hi. I'd like to make {{tl-pr}} take arguments more like {{es-pr}} which it was based off of. In particular, I would like to change it so that instead of putting additional respellings in |IPA2=, |IPA3=, etc. they just go in |2=, |3=, etc., and the corresponding modifier parameters should use inline modifiers, hence instead of e.g.

{{tl-pr|diyán|IPA2=di7án|a2=dialectal|IPA3=+|a3=dialectal}}

you'd have

{{tl-pr|diyán|di7án<a:dialectal>|+<a:dialectal>}}

and instead of

{{tl-pr|q=noun
|IPA2=tubeg|q2=noun|a2=Filipino, colloquial
|IPA3=tubíg|q3=adjective
|IPA4=tubég|q4=adjective|a4=Filipino, colloquial
}}

you'd have

{{tl-pr|+<q:noun>
|tubeg<q:noun><a:Filipino, colloquial>
|tubíg<q:adjective>
|tubég<q:adjective><a:Filipino, colloquial>
}}

After doing this I am planning on doing a mass-conversion by bot of existing uses of {{tl-IPA}} to {{tl-pr}}.

Any objections? Benwing2 (talk) 04:12, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 Hm... {{tl-pr}} was made almost made from scratch not from {{es-pr}}. Though it was inspired only by the layout of both es-pr and pl-pr but that's just the Wiktionary prescribed layout anyway. Anyway, I'm okay adding the bracket notation, but I think it should just be another option, not a total replacement, but that could be the default. And... while majority of Tagalog words would be okay with that setup, I'm leaning to object with having |2= equals to IPA2=, I designed the |1=, |2= supposedly for hyphenations because there are some words, especially proper nouns (like loans such as Angel, or else it would be read as /ˈʔaŋel/, [ˈʔa.ŋɛl]) that the syllabification do not match in Spanish. In Spanish, I think it works because the words are exactly read as is (with the bonus of the diacritics). Other examples I think that really requires the hyphenation setup right now would be Paete, Chua, Batangas, laway conscious, ngaun. Hmm.. I don't know, probably some other words that I can't think of right now but I think the hyphenation should still can be manual somehow. Ysrael214 (talk) 04:32, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 I see, there are a few cases like Kaaba where hyphenation is specified using 1=/2=/3=. However, {{es-pr}} supports manual hyphenation as well, using periods between syllables. So for example, your case of {{tl-pr|Kaa|ba|IPA=Kaba}} would be written using the style of {{es-pr}} as {{tl-pr|Kaba<hyph:Kaa.ba>}}. Since it's much more common to specify manual respelling than manual hyphenation, it seems a bit strange to reserve 1=/2=/3= for hyphenation and use the longer param names |IPA2=, |IPA3= etc. for respelling. Also, using 1=/2=/3= for hyphenation makes it impossible to specify multiple manual hyphenations for different respellings, which is not a problem using the {{es-pr}} notation. As for converting from {{tl-IPA}} to {{tl-pr}}, I did this same sort of conversion with {{es-IPA}} and {{es-pr}}. My script uses the algorithm in the module to auto-generate the hyphenation and compares it against manually specified hyphenations; if they differ, the manual hyphenation is preserved (using the format shown above), for later review. Benwing2 (talk) 04:48, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 How would it handle Paete? But okay let's see, I'll do rechecks as well.
By the way, for the case of heograpiya, do I need to write something like: {{tl-pr|heo.grapiya<hyph:heo.grapiya}} (hence redundant) or it would assume hyphenation based on the 1= input?
so if so, {{tl-pr|Batanggas<hyph:Batan.gas>}}, correct? Ysrael214 (talk) 04:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Also, please keep the glottal stop not shown in the hyphenations as well ex. diin would have IPA input as di7ín, but should only show di-in. Ysrael214 (talk) 05:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
In {{es-pr}} you can put syllabification marks in the respelling like {{tl-pr}}, so you'd write {{tl-pr|heo.grapiya}} (that would be the same as current). Paete could be written like this (if I remember the way I designed it): {{tl-pr|Paytê<q:prescribed>|Pa7ete|hyph=Pae.te,Pa.e.te}}. Essentially, there's a <hyph:...> inline modifier that allows you to attach a manual hyphenation to a specific respelling (and shows below the particular respelling, indented), and |hyph= allows you to specify overall hyphenation that shows unindented at the bottom. Batangas would I think be written as in your example above, i.e. {{tl-pr|Batanggas<hyph:Ba.tan.gas>}}, although it might be smart enough to know about ngg in the respelling and handle it appropriately without the need for manual hyphenation. And yes, the hyphenation algorithm would know how to remove glottal stops and such from the respelling. In {{it-pr}}, for example, the hyphenation algorithm is able to automatically handle various common respelling conventions without needing manual hyphenation (Italian spelling in general is less regular than Spanish and needs more hints). Benwing2 (talk) 05:13, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Last question, but I think I'm good after this.
In Tagalog, <g> can be pronounced /g/ (if native), /d͡ʒ/ (some English loanwords), and /h/ (some Spanish loan words)
Gitnang Panahon would probably be fine {{tl-pr|Gitnáng Panahon}}
but what about Geronimo, do I write it as {{tl-pr|Herónimo<hyph=Ge.ro.ni.mo}} or is {{tl-pr|Herónimo}} enough?
and for Gina, is it {{tl-pr|Jina<hyph:Gi.na}} or {{tl-pr|Jina}} only? Thanks!
I'll just recheck if there are things to be rechecked. Feel free to ask more questions. Thanks again. Ysrael214 (talk) 05:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 In both cases, the manual hyphenation should not be necessary; I can add special cases for both of them to check for h and j in the respelling against g in the original. See Template:it-pr#Explicit hyphenation for how this is handled in Italian, where there are very similar situations with written <z> and <zz>, which can be pronounced either /t(t)s/ or /d(d)z/. The hyphenation algorithm handles this automatically, as well as certain other unpredictable cases (e.g. written <s> between vowels is usually /z/ but sometimes /s/). Benwing2 (talk) 05:53, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Okay, please proceed. Thank you. Ysrael214 (talk) 06:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 However, it would be a big help if you can convert words that are *exactly* in this format (of which there are a lot):
===Pronunciation===
  • {{tl-IPA}} (with no parameters)
  • {{hyph|tl|<some parameters here that probably align with the pronunciation since no parameter was used>}}
into
===Pronunciation===
{{tl-pr}} Ysrael214 (talk) 04:36, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

questions about Template:tl-pr

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Hi. I am going through your code trying to understand it. I have a couple of questions:

  1. You have a check for the words "colloquial", "obsolete" and "relaxed" in the qualifier text, in which case you don't generate a rhyme. But the way it's written, it will match all qualifiers containing those words anywhere in them, even in a definition; was that intended? (BTW the issue of definitions may become less important because I am planning on adding an explicit parameter |t= or inline modifier <t:...> to specify the gloss.)
  2. Under "Manila glottal stop elision", you generate an extra pronunciation if there's a word-final glottal stop — but only in non-final words in multiword expressions. Is this correct, or should it actually be affecting all word-final glottal stops (or even all syllable-final glottal stops, including those in the middle of a word)?

Thanks, Benwing2 (talk) 22:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, I see this text under Tagalog phonology:
A glottal stop occurring at the end of a word is often elided when it is in the middle of a sentence, especially by speakers of the Manila Dialect.
So I assume the code for #2 is correct? Benwing2 (talk) 22:50, 26 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2
1. Ahh not intended to include the definitions but yea definitions shouldn't count. I was thinking something like "now colloquial", "relaxed pronunciation", so despite that, it would still count. Looks like I only made a workaround.
2. Yep, but only at the middle of a sentence. Only after a non-final word, not in between words. All good. Ysrael214 (talk) 22:53, 26 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Hi, one more thing. I'm mostly done redoing the argument structure of {{tl-pr}}, and I've written a script to convert from the old structure to the new one, but there's one thing I'm not sure of whether it makes sense to preserve, and that's the code that sorts the arguments to |a= by dialect and groups multiple pronunciations together with the same dialect. The reasons for this are:

1. There is current code like this:

{{tl-IPA|le7ég|pre={{a|Filipino}}}}
{{tl-IPA|le7eg|pre={{a|now|_|dialectal|Rizal|Southern Tagalog}}}}

that is difficult to convert to {{tl-pr}} with the grouping and sorting of dialects, but it easier if we just leave the dialects alone according to whatever order they're specified in.

2. In the new code, you can specify more than one pronunciation on a given line, as is present in {{es-pr}}. I find this useful e.g. for cases where there are multiple pronunciations according to meaning, but a particular meaning can have more than one pronunciation. An example is tayahan:

{{tl-pr|+<verb^to give an estimate>|tayahán,táyáhan<noun^calculator; calculation>|táyáhan<noun^calculus>}}

Here, the noun sense with the meaning "calculator" or "calculation" can have two possible pronunciations, which would display on the same line, whereas the other pronunciations would display on their own lines. [The syntax <verb^to give an estimate> is equivalent to <t:verb^to give an estimate> and displays a combination gloss and part of speech, something like this at the end of the line: (“to give an estimate”, verb)] The way that {{es-pr}} supports this is to allow you to attach a qualifier (<q:...> on the left or <qq:...> on the right) and maybe also accent qualifier (<a:...> on the left or <aa:...> on the right) to each specific pronunciation; this allows you e.g. to put the "relaxed" or "colloquial" variant that doesn't differ in meaning on the same line as the more formal pronunciation. This would also allow you to do your own grouping by dialect by simply putting all the pronunciations for a given dialect on a line and tagging the first one with the left accent qualifier.

3. In any case, there are very few cases where it appears there are actually multiple pronunciations per dialect as well as multiple dialects, meaning that the current grouping and sorting isn't used much. In fact I could only find one, for tubig:

{{tl-pr|q=noun
|IPA2=tubeg|q2=noun|a2=Filipino, colloquial
|IPA3=tubíg|q3=adjective
|IPA4=tubég|q4=adjective|a4=Filipino, colloquial
}}

This could be supported in the new way of doing things by putting the pronunciations tubig and tubeg on the same line, and tubíg and tubég on a separate line, maybe like this:

{{tl-pr
|+,tubeg<a:Filipino,colloquial><noun^>
|tubíg,tubég<a:Filipino,colloquial><adjective^>
}}

Here, <a:Filipino,colloquial> is logically attached to the second pronunciation on each line and displays just before it, while <noun^> is logically attached to the whole line and displays at the end.

What do you think?

An alternative that is somewhat in between the current way of doing things and what I've proposed above is to associate the accents with the entire line rather than with each pronunciation. That way we could still preserve the code that auto-adds a default accent of "Standard Tagalog", and still group by accent, but not reorder anything. Thoughts?

Benwing2 (talk) 23:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 Hello, what's the output per argument tl-pr input?
I'm okay with not reordering dialects for now, but I can add that in the future if I manage to think of a good algorithm.
so.. number 1 is fine to keep the dialects as is. (or maybe a parameter to disable dialect sorting/grouping?)
2. I think group by accent and + Standard Tagalog is still good to keep. but not the reorder part because I think you're referring to the "now", "chiefly" stuff that if sorted along with the dialects, since "now" is not a dialect, it ends up at the end of the dialect list. Okay, don't reorder for now. Ysrael214 (talk) 03:22, 2 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 OK sounds good. I think I'll go with having one accent spec per line, that way we can add "Standard Tagalog" to lines without accents and group lines with the same accents. What is your question about {{tl-pr}} output? I'm not quite sure I understand that part. Benwing2 (talk) 03:52, 2 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
BTW some pages (e.g. magaan) identify the accent as "Filipino". How does this differ from Standard Tagalog? Benwing2 (talk) 03:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Oh, I want to see it how it would actually look like on a page with the changes, not just the source code.
No difference, Filipino is just an alias of Standard Tagalog. Ysrael214 (talk) 04:30, 2 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
I see, I will try to get you some results shortly. It should not look very different except that you can have more than one pronunciation on a line, comma-separated. The qualifiers can go either before or after each individual pronunciation and the gloss goes at the end, in parens, like the gloss specified in a regular link. Benwing2 (talk) 04:55, 2 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 OK, I am close to having my new code working. I just need to do some cleanup of the hyphenation code. To that end, I have some questions.
1. the name Buenviaje: If I write
{{tl-IPA|Buenviahe}}
I get
  • IPA(key): /buenˈvjahe/, [bwɛmˈvjaː.hɛ]
but if I write
{{tl-IPA|Buenviyahe}}
I get
  • IPA(key): /buenviˈahe/, [bwɛmˈvjaː.hɛ]
Notice how the phonetic outputs are the same in both cases but the phonemic outputs are different. Is this correct? If so, which phonemic output is correct in general in cases like this?
2. Along these same lines, for Buenviaje, the syllabification is given as {{hyph|tl|Bu|en|vi|a|je}} as if there are 5 syllables, but the phonetic output above shows only 3. Is this 5-syllable division correct, and if so, why?
3. What sort of mismatches between spelling and respelling should be handlable by the syllabification algorithm? It's given that extra 7's will be handled, as well as h in place of j, and ng pronounced as ngg. Can you think of others? Should cases like Buenviaje respelled {{tl-IPA|Buwenviyahe}} be handled? Here there are three issues: extra w, extra y, j -> h. What about j -> dy, like {{tl-IPA|dyák7enpóy}} for jak-en-poy? (Maybe this is too rare to bother with. )
Benwing2 (talk) 08:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
One more question has to do with Guevarra. If you write {{tl-pr}} without any argument it seems to generate the right pronunciation but it syllabifies as Gue‧va‧rra when the manual syllabification writes Gue‧var‧ra. Which is correct? Benwing2 (talk) 09:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2
1. Buwenviyahe is more correct one. In Tagalog, w and y are considered consonants so when 3 consonants appear, NVY, an I must be inserted in the syllabification (in standard syllabification}, Buenviaje is also a proper noun so hence, syllabification inconsistency.
2. The 5-syllable division is what the Tagalog dictionaries show and it's more general, including rural areas. The phonetic one is how people say it normally say it though recently. ex. probínsiya - PRO - BIN - SI -YA but people tend to affricate the SIY part to be like <SH>. so for Buwen-Via-je, people merge the buw, and the viy, to just bw and vy in fast pronunciation. They're like variants. This uw, iy thing only appears in loanwords.
3. Dashes? This can still be manual right? Though <ng> is not all the time <ngg>
Jak-en-poy would appear as this way, I think? I would split the 7s there. I think it's leftover code that in previous version of tl-IPA, the IPA can't handle per individual word yet before.
I guess there's gets
4. Guevarra -> Hyphenation: Gue-var-ra, but since we're switching to Syllabification: Gue-va-rra is more correct. tl-pr is more correct here. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:19, 3 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 But in Tagalog, people don't really mind much if you say it like Buwenviyahe or Buenvyahe, there's no difference in meaning and would still be understood. But yeah, the Bu|en|vi|a|je is more correct according to dictionaries and the Committee of the Filipino Language. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:38, 3 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Not sure about this, can you retain the current setup with the uw iy thing? Ysrael214 (talk) 10:32, 3 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 Yes, no problem. Thanks for your comments in response to my questions! Benwing2 (talk) 20:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 Please see User:Benwing2/test-tl-pr. This includes various testcases for the new version of the module, which is located in Module:User:Benwing2/tl-pronunciation. (It is rather longer than the old code because it includes both the old version and new version of the {{tl-pr}} code. When we are satisfied with the new version and have converted all uses of {{tl-pr}}, I will delete the old code.)
Above each testcase is the template call as it will eventually look. (The actual template call temporarily has |new=1 to enable the new argument structure, and |pagename= which is required on documentation and test pages to specify what the pagename ought to be for handling of + and syllabification.) Note that the module has a concept of per-pronunciation-line properties (where a "property" is rhyme, syllabification or homophones) as well as "overall" properties. Per-pronunciation-line properties can be explicitly specified using inline modifiers attached to a given pronunciation line, and overall properties can be specified using separate parameters |rhyme=, |hyph= or |hmp=. In addition, per-pronunciation-line properties are auto-generated for rhymes and syllabification. The code checks the per-pronunciation-line properties, and if they're the same for all pronunciation lines, they are converted into overall properties. Per-pronunciation-line properties display indented under a given pronunciation line, whereas overall properties display unindented after all pronunciation lines. That is why some properties display at the bottom unindented, and some display indented under a given line.
I have not changed the actual IPA() function at all; nor have I changed the syllabification code. The only thing I did with syllabification is to add a function align_syllabification_to_spelling() that attempts to match up the syllabified respelling to the original respelling and copy the syllable breaks from the former to the latter if everything lines up. (It knows about extra glottal stops, extra w or y, g replaced by h or j, and certain other things.) If this can't be done, no automatic syllabification is displayed.
Note that we may need to make some changes to the default handling of i and u between a preceding consonant and following vowel; I'm not quite sure how the code works currently but the existing invocations of {{tl-IPA}} and {{tl-pr}} are inconsistent in how they handle this.
Please take a look at the test results and let me know what you think. Benwing2 (talk) 07:00, 4 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Questions about syllabification: {{tl-pr|Breslavia}} generates a default syllabification Bres.lav.ia but the manual hyphenation/syllabification shows Bres.la.via. Which is correct? Should we change the code to generate Bres.la.via? Also {{tl-pr|mani7obra}} generates a default syllabification ma.ni.ob.ra but in many places this is manually changed to the equivalent of ma.ni.o.bra. Which is correct? Finally, if you write {{tl-pr|maniobra}} you get /manˈjobɾa/, [mɐˈɲob.ɾɐ] which looks strange; should it instead be /maˈnjobɾa/, [mɐˈɲob.ɾɐ]? Benwing2 (talk) 20:38, 4 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 I havent taken a look yet, I'll get back to you tomorrow.
but for your questions:
1. Bres.lav.ia is correct, It's only Bres-la-via when hyphenated but not actually how it's syllabified.
2. for the consonant cluster syllabification (br, bl, tr, pr, etc), this depends on if the word is a loanword from Spanish. For ex. bakla is bak.la (native) but kable is ka.ble
he.o.gra.pi.ya not he.og.ra pi.ya
So... ma.ni.o.bra but
3. Please keep man.jo.bra, the /j/ is treated as a consonant in Tagalog not another vowel or glide from n to o.
Like we'd actually say MAN-yobra not MA-nyobra. Ysrael214 (talk) 20:49, 4 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 I just checked the Filipino committee dictionary, idk why the syllabification is ma.ni.ob.ra, but they have rules that if Spanish loans, the cluster is kept, they're inconsistent sometimes, but I think this is best left manual. According to the orthography book that they publish that the r/l clusters should be together if loaned from Spanish, ma.ni.o.bra is more correct. Ysrael214 (talk) 20:57, 4 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Fixed maniobra. We haven't really polished words that start with K,P,M,N in tagalog because those letters are where the most common prefixed words are, sorry lol Ysrael214 (talk) 21:03, 4 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
OK, thanks! In the cases like maniobra we should just be able to write {{tl-pr|manio.bra}} and it will work correctly. Benwing2 (talk) 21:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 I put two pronunciations in maniobra btw. So {{tl-pr|mani7o.bra|manio.bra}} right? Will two syllabifications appear automatically? Ysrael214 (talk) 21:28, 4 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 Yes, they should, each indented under the appropriate pronunciation. BTW I have a question about words like orkestra and baritono. Each is given with two pronunciations, one of which is the default and the other has antepenultimate stress, e.g. barítono, órkestra. But in each case the headword corresponding to the antepenultimate stress is listed with two stresses: barítonó, órkestrá. Which version is correct? There may be others like this. Benwing2 (talk) 21:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Okay, hmm, for this one ignore the Spanish accent notation.
This one really depends on if loanword or not.
sílaból = SI-la-bol, so we write sílabol in the IPA to handle it correctly
usually loan words like
paralélográm = but in IPA
but there are cases (usually native Tagalog suffixed forms usually) only have the first accented vowel as secondary stress (ex. inaama)
where i-NA (secondary) - a -MA (primary) like in English Japanese, English lemonade.
However, they share the same notation of
marking the ultimate and the antepenultimate with diacritics. Probably because even sílaból sometimes becomes SI (secondary) - la - BOL (primary) depending how fast a person speaks or if they're angry, it tends to be like that.
-----
Tagalog uses the single antepenultimate diacritic = ex. watusi for wátusi to mean exactly like wátúsi. But we just put both in wátúsi so people wont get confused. And we use this mark in the IPA as well so this would be correct. because inputting in IPA as wátusi would give equivalent to headword wátusí.
Long story short, if penultimate syllable is stressed, no diacritic on penultimate syllable, everything else, mark the final syllable with diacritic.
If some syllable in the before the penultimate syllable gets stressed, mark with accute accent.
so... yea please keep the current status of the IPA and headword for baritono and orkestra. Ysrael214 (talk) 21:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Haven't looked at it so much but can the other autogenerated pronunciation like the more native pronunciation be on a separated line? It seems too crowded. Ysrael214 (talk) 21:34, 4 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 Yes, I agree with that, trying to figure out how to structure things. If there's only one pronunciation on a line, it's no problem putting the autogenerated pronunciation below it, but if there are two pronunciations plus one autogenerated, I'm not sure the best way to write that. I do think it's useful sometimes to put two pronunciations on a line, e.g. the example with baunan and the one farther down with bihasa, where there are two or more parts of speech and a given part of speech has two possible pronunciations. The alternative is to always break up multiple pronunciations on a line by indenting them underneath a header (e.g. "noun"), but that sometimes ends up taking up a lot of vertical space. As for what you say about sílaból and órkestrá, not sure I completely understand but I'll follow what you say. Benwing2 (talk) 00:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Oh forgot to state, I said sílaból, to demonstrate how English syllable would be if borrowed into Tagalog but that may not be obvious. Ysrael214 (talk) 00:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
OK, makes sense. BTW I found an example that has two stresses in the call to {{tl-IPA}}, which is sentigramo, written either {{tl-IPA}} or {{tl-IPA|sentígramó}}. Benwing2 (talk) 00:32, 5 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Fixed. Ysrael214 (talk) 01:21, 5 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks! What about sinapupunan (and durungawan, inampalan, lingindayat)? This also has one pronunciation with two stresses, but it's not a borrowed word. Benwing2 (talk) 01:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Also, just to clarify about cases like Valencia. The current pronunciation writes
{{tl-IPA}} 
{{tl-IPA|balénsiya}}

which gives

  • IPA(key): /vaˈlensja/, [vɐˈlɛn̪.ʃɐ]

  • IPA(key): /baˈlensia/, [bɐˈlɛn̪.ʃɐ]

Ignoring the v/b difference, I notice that the first one seems to have three syllables va.len.cia and the second one four syllables va.len.ci.a but they have the same phonetic pronunciation. Does this indicate that it can be analyzed phonemically in two ways? If so, what's the best way of indicating this and is there a way of doing it automatically? The current situation where the phonemic outputs differ but not the phonetic ones will be interpreted as an error, I imagine. Benwing2 (talk) 01:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Also there is some inconsistency in how things are currently handled, e.g. Villavicencio has essentially the same ending but writes
{{tl-IPA}} 
{{tl-IPA|Bilyabisensyo}} 

rather than -siyo in the second one. Benwing2 (talk) 01:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 The two diacritic-ed non loanwords are correct in the pronunciation. Ysrael214 (talk) 02:15, 5 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
FYI I found some cases of loanwords with two stresses, one of which is final: badminton, desimetro, estratehiya, Geraldine, Villamin, Villamor. There are also some cases like Relampagos, simpatia, termometro with stress Rélampágos, símpatíya, térmométro, etc. Benwing2 (talk) 22:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 All good. For the Villamin, Villamor, sometimes the pronunciation is kinda interpreted like two words. Since Villa exists, it becomes like VIL-la MORE. Hence like that. Proper nouns are more inconsistent.
For térmométro, for both IPA and headword having diacritic in penultimate, that's intended so people won't get confused if they know the Spanish diacritic system. Ysrael214 (talk) 02:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks! BTW I think my new code is ready, except possibly for the display issues regarding how to format cases with more than one pronunciation on a line. I would like to push it to production, along with a bunch of offline changes I have to the Tagalog entries to convert entries using multiple {{tl-IPA}}'s (and various instances of Pronunciation 1, etc.) to use the new {{tl-pr}} syntax. What do you think? The display issues can be resolved after we push the new code to production, if you don't have time right now to respond to them.
What I'm thinking about the display issues is that whenever there's an auto-generated additional pronunciation (due to f/v/z or Manila glottal stop elision), we can put the additional pronunciation on a new line below the existing one. Since the main purpose as I've defined it for using multiple pronunciations on a single line is to make it clearer what's going on when you have multiple parts of speech with different pronunciations, and this usually occurs with native rather than borrowed words, it should be rare in any case to have multiple pronunciations on a line co-occurring with auto-generated pronunciations. If we do have two pronunciations on a line + auto-generated pronunciation(s), the latter can go on a new line, indented one extra bullet. Benwing2 (talk) 02:50, 6 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Will the numbered pronunciations retain the numbered header or will it just be "Pronunciation"? But yea, all good for now. Ysrael214 (talk) 02:58, 6 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 What I tried to do, when there was Pronunciation 1 and Pronunciation 2, was figure out whether they belong in the same Etymology section or in different sections, mostly based on their meaning. If I wasn't completely sure, I added an {{attn|tl}} note indicating this. In a few cases (maybe around 10), I've left them as-is for now because I really have no idea whether they are etymologically related. At some point I'll make a list of those cases and we can figure out how to handle them. Benwing2 (talk) 03:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Alright. Thanks! Ysrael214 (talk) 03:50, 6 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 I just saw in the module (Module:User:Benwing2/tl-pronunciation) that the "terms with %s pronunciation" isn't handled anymore: malumi, malumay, maragsa, mabilis
Can it be added back? Ysrael214 (talk) 05:24, 6 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oops, that is a mistake :( ... I meant to include that but forgot. Same thing I think with hyphenations/syllabifications that don't match the pagename; there should be a tracking category for that. Benwing2 (talk) 05:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
OK, I fixed the issue with malumi/maragsa/etc. pronunciations as well as 'terms with syllabification not matching pagename', and pushed the code live. I am currently pushing the offline changes I made to various pages. Note that when there were two variant pronunciations listed on the same line in the headword, I listed them on the same line as well in the pronunciation (example: Etymology 1 of ayaw). If you'd prefer they go on different lines in such a case, I can change them all after the current batch is pushed live. Benwing2 (talk) 02:05, 7 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Okay this seems fine, I just need getting used to. Thanks! Please do change them all. By the way, how are you changing for example with the letter X. Rhymes would be handled the same right? Ysrael214 (talk) 02:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Also, multiwords don't get rhyhmes now right? Is it okay to get rhymes but only for the last word? Or is it the standard? Ysrael214 (talk) 02:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
So far I haven't touched any of the single-letter terms. I'm thinking maybe something like this:
  • (Standard Tagalog)
    • IPA(key): /ʔeks/ [ʔɛks] (letter name, Filipino alphabet)
    • IPA(key): /ˈʔekis/ [ˈʔɛː.xɪs] (letter name, Abecedario)
    • IPA(key): /ks/ [ks] (phoneme)
    • IPA(key): /h/ [h] (phoneme, some Spanish loanwords)
  • Syllabification: X

If you'd prefer to have all the rhymes placed at the bottom, like the current format of the page, I can arrange for that.

As for multiwords not getting rhymes, yeah I did that so they won't clog the categories, since in general when looking up a rhyme, people only care about single-word terms. But I can make it so that rhymes display based on the last word, but don't categorize. How does that sound? Benwing2 (talk) 02:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 If multiword, dont categorize but still show. Thanks. Also with letters maybe remove the syllabification as well? Nothing to syllabify in there lol. Ysrael214 (talk) 02:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
OK sounds good. Benwing2 (talk) 02:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Oh yeah, the native-sounding pronunciation if only one input should be in a new line right?
Mountain Province occupied the entire line, or maybe if multiword. Ysrael214 (talk) 02:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes, I will fix that, top of my list :) ... Benwing2 (talk) 02:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Sorry for the delay, some RL stuff came up. I have implemented moving the auto-generated "more native-sounding" and "glottal stop reduction" to a separate line. What I did was indent the auto-generated pronunciation(s) under the previous line; let me know if this looks OK or you want something else done. Benwing2 (talk) 20:42, 11 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
BTW I have a question about Quezon; can this have a /z/ pronunciation as well as a "more native-sounding" /s/ pronunciation or only an /s/ pronunciation? The latter is how it's currently indicated but I don't know if that was intentional. Benwing2 (talk) 20:44, 11 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 We had a talk about that somewhere but I forgot but for Quezon, keep pronounced as Keson for now, while /z/ is valid there, I think the invoiced /k/ more commonly makes the /z/ sorta unvoiced as well by most speakers but only applies to some words like Quezon I think. Should be corrected in derived terms as well. Ysrael214 (talk) 04:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 By the way when all IPA, IPA-lite, tl-IPA or anything related has been converted to tl-pr, could you please recreate the tl-pr documentation? I'm not yet fully sure how to use the new tl-pr. Ysrael214 (talk) 05:04, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
I just made a bunch of changes to {{tl-pr}} documenting how it works; I'm going to add examples to make everything even clearer. Benwing2 (talk) 05:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Also, some entries with this format {{tl-pr|audio=<audio>}} (no inputs, just blank except audio) got their audios removed. I haven't looked at a lot but the audio from bayanihan was removed. Or was that intended? Ysrael214 (talk) 05:27, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oops, not intended. Let me see about fixing. Benwing2 (talk) 05:32, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
OK, it looks like 40 pages need fixing. This also includes a few pages like anor and karagragan that had only |a= and no respellings. I'll fix these once the current run to remove |new=1 finishes. Benwing2 (talk) 05:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Sorry again, another report:
The ə/ë inputs or pronunciation should be valid for "e" in syllabification: See Meranaw. Ysrael214 (talk) 05:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Report: Currently, no rhymes appear in Ang. Ysrael214 (talk) 06:15, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Also in y (and) Ysrael214 (talk) 06:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 Thanks. I suspect this is because there's a check for vowels that doesn't know about y or capital A. I will fix. Benwing2 (talk) 06:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
OK, those 40 pages should be fixed, along with the issues with Ang and y. Benwing2 (talk) 07:37, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 By the way, are there some programs that I can download so I can do coding in my own device? I mean for wiktionary lua stuff. Ysrael214 (talk) 08:05, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 Do you mean the ability to run Lua on your own machine? If so, that requires some setup and I'm not really familiar with how to do it, but I think User:Erutuon or maybe User:This, that and the other know. You might want to ask in the Grease pit. Benwing2 (talk) 09:04, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Erutuon said at one stage he was going to work it out. I haven't had the need to do so yet. I'm also not really sure if it is worth the trouble if you are just developing Lua (better to use the "preview on page" feature and/or user sandboxes). The reason Erutuon and I were talking about it had to do with the processing of dumps and potentially evaluating {{l}} and similar templates "offline". This, that and the other (talk) 11:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@This, that and the other Yes I have found the same thing; I just use user sandboxes in combination with test pages and previewing. Benwing2 (talk) 19:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 For the new order, when is a caption q and qq? Colloquial has been usually used for q, but obsolete is sometimes used for q and qq. So what's the standard here? Ysrael214 (talk) 17:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Also reporting noo has no sylalbification for some reason. Ysrael214 (talk) 18:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Found the same for daan, gaan, diin, liit. Ysrael214 (talk) 18:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 I think the issue with noo, daan etc. is an interaction between the glottal stop and the double letter. There is some code in the alignment function (which matches up the hyphenated respelling and the original spelling) that allows for silent double letters (e.g. in Jefferson, assalamu alaikum, Kaaba, Fujii and several others), and I suspect it's getting confused by the extra glottal stop. I'll fix this. As for q vs. qq, q displays to the left of the pronunciation and qq displays to the right. If there are two pronunciations on a line, and the second one has a qualifier, I use q to put the qualifier to the left, to make it clear that it applies only to the second one. When there's only one pronunciation on a line, I have generally been using qq to put the qualifier to the right, to maintain compatibility with the old way that it looked, although we can also put it to the left; it's a matter of taste, whatever you think looks better. Benwing2 (talk) 19:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Ahhh yea I'm aware that q is left qq is right but I just thought maybe "colloquial" is better left, and others on right or something. Anyway, thanks a lot! Especially coding for an unfamiliar and complex language lol. Ysrael214 (talk) 19:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Reporting syll=# is broken in Faith. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:28, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Hi, please allow ⟨x⟩ for syllabification to match /h/ as well like ⟨g⟩. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:32, 17 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Also, you were going to rename "Tagalog terms with hyphenation errors‎" to something else right? Ysrael214 (talk) 09:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Tagalog hyphenation

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I wrote a QA script to check for entries where the hyphenation template doesn't match the word from the entry. I noticed a few cases for Tagalog where this is the case. Do you by any chance have a moment to look at them? Thank you! tbm (talk) 00:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Tbm They seem to be fixed to me. Did you run the script again for Tagalog? Thank you. Ysrael214 (talk) 01:02, 30 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, I ran it a few days ago. I didn't notice you made some changes. Let me update! tbm (talk) 01:08, 30 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Ok, I ran the script again and it's all fixed, thank you.
I implemented support for {{tl-pr}} in my QA script. I see no new errors.
BTW, a number of words use double dot ("..") in {{tl-pr}}. Not sure if that is intentional. The words are siyasat, Siasat and Kankanaey.
Also, I'm not sure the documentation of {{tl-pr}} explains the meaning of "7". Maybe you could add that.
Thank you for your work! tbm (talk) 03:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Tbm I am not yet sure what the double dots mean; I need to go through that part of the code. The 7 is a glottal stop, which isn't normally written but is pronounced. Benwing2 (talk) 03:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 @Tbm Double dots is just a way we bypass the changes in the module when certain combinations changed to another sound.
Example: for siyasat, if we didn't put the double dot, the pronunciation would be equivalent to SHA-sat, which is wrong because the si-ya is pronounced as is, it never becomes a fricative.
Loanwords such as siyampu is pronounced like SHAM-pu so no dot dot was added. Ysrael214 (talk) 22:00, 4 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 I see. Another way we might be able to do it is to write siyampu without a dot to indicate the compressed pronunciation SHAM-pu and si.yasat to force a syllable break that prevents the compressed pronunciation. Benwing2 (talk) 00:17, 5 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

/ts/ vs. /t.s/ vs. /tʃ/

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Hi. Currently in order to force a /ts/ pronunciation you write t.s, but that has a side effect of putting a syllable boundary between the t and s, which is often not wanted (e.g. in tsunami). I'm fixing this so that you use t_s to force the t and s to be pronounced separately (this is consistent with the usage of underscore in {{es-pr}}, {{it-pr}}, {{ru-IPA}} and other places). I have a question, though. Can there be a difference between /ts/ pronounced [t͡s] and /t.s/? If so, which one occurs in words like Botswana, putspa, Betsy/Patsy, Hatsuko/Natsuko/Setsuko, Quitson, initsigan, tatsiha, kibitser, dialectal kutsara, dialectal kotse and kotse-kotsehan? I am guessing that Botswana and putspa divide as 'Bots.wa.na' and 'puts.pa' and hence have [t͡s], but the others divide as 't.s' (although I'm less sure about Spanish-derived terms like kutsara and kotse). But I may be totally wrong. BTW I made a bunch of fixes to the alignment code that matches up respellings with spellings, so that e.g. it correctly handles double letters pronounced single; silent h's e.g. in adhan, Abdurahman, Hermogenes and Hannah; and w/y in respelling against u/i in the original, e.g. Zulueta respelled 'Zulweta' and Cabiao respelled 'Cabyao'. I'm now working on cleaning up the syllabification code, which has some issues I've identified. I may have more questions for you. Benwing2 (talk) 08:10, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Also I'm still working on adding rhyme (without categorization) to multiword terms. The only issue here is that the rhyme code doesn't currently have a way of turning off categorization, so I'm adding that (and likewise for the code in Module:IPA). Benwing2 (talk) 08:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Syllable initial is more of a [t͡s], syllable final is more of a [ts] but it really depends. initsigan as a compound should be /i.nit.si.gan/ not /i.ni.t͡sigan/ though I get why it becomes together as t͡s because it's like that in fast pronunciation sometimes, same with /tat.su.lok/, /ta.t͡su.lok/. In my honest opinion, /tat.su.lok/ is more correct though. Tsunami must be /t͡s/ I feel. Maybe t_s should be t͡s if word initial or the <t> is not followed by a vowel.
For /tʃ/ /t͡s/ for Spanish loans, it's regional, I hear very old people as well say /kut.sa.ra/, /ku.t͡sa.ra/, but young people and as well as upper class pronounce it like the Spanish /tʃ/ correctly.
For English loans, it's more of a /t.s/ like in English but can become /t͡s/.
Japanese, well people watch anime so /t͡s/ adapts as well. Not much recognizable difference between /t͡s/ and /t.s/ but for sure /tʃ/, people recognize that /tʃ/ is different from /ts/
Not sure if I answered your question. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 Hmmm, OK. I will assume that Japanese loans like Hatsuko, Natsuko, Setsuko syllabify as 'Ha.tsu.ko', 'Na.tsu.ko', 'Se.tsu.ko' and pronounced with /t͡s/ whereas English loans Betsy, Patsy syllabify as 'Bet.sy' and 'Pat.sy' and pronounce with /t.s/. The regional/dialectal pronunciation of Spanish loans kutsara and kotse I'll take as 'kut.sara' and 'kot.se' as well, like Quitson which appears to be a compound Quit-son, and the native compounds initsigan, tatsiha, etc. Does that make sense? In general t_s will get you /t͡s/ everywhere and the syllable boundary goes before or after the whole cluster, whereas t.s gets you /t.s/ with a syllable boundary in the middle of the cluster. Sound OK? Benwing2 (talk) 09:28, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Makes sense. Sounds good. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:34, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 Just FYI I pushed code to implement t_s and t.s, and am doing a run to clean up places that used the old t.s or t..s. I also added a category Category:Tagalog terms where syllabification alignment failed to track places where no syllabification is displayed because the syllabified respelling couldn't be matched up with the pagename. On those pages, if you Preview them and scroll down to the bottom under "Parser profiling data", you'll see an [Expand] button that shows some logging information documenting why the alignment failed. For example, for mayor, the Etymology 2 pronunciation meyor doesn't align, and yields this message:
Syllabification alignment mismatch for pagename 'mayor' (position 2, character a), syllabified respelling 'me.yor' (position 2, character e), aligned result so far 'm'
This says that the failure occurred at position 2 where it couldn't align a against e, and had so far built up the result 'm' (it builds up the result character-by-character). Benwing2 (talk) 09:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Will check the category. Thanks! By the way, syll=# doesn't seem to be working. Also, can you please remove the accents in the homophones? Ysrael214 (talk) 09:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Saw the category: a lot of these were "colloquial" pronunciations and also pag-ibig should still have the syllabification. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:45, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 Thanks! Going to sleep now, I'll remove the accents on the homophones tomorrow and fix pag-ibig then. I also think it shouldn't be trying to syllabify colloquial pronunciations, so I'll fix that. Benwing2 (talk) 10:12, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Sure thing. Great work! Ysrael214 (talk) 10:13, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Related to this topic: what's the difference between /t͡ʃ/ and /tʃ/ in rhymes? Ysrael214 (talk) 11:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 This shouldn't happen, where do you see /tʃ/? Benwing2 (talk) 15:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Example ketsap. Ysrael214 (talk) 15:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Because in Evangeline, /d͡ʒ/ seem to be tied but /tʃ/ isn't. Ysrael214 (talk) 15:45, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
I see. This looks to be a holdover from the Spanish module, which has /t͡ʃ/ but not /d͡ʒ/. Line 675 here Module:tl-pronunciation#L-675 specifically removes the tie in t͡ʃ when computing rhymes; I think this is because the existing Spanish rhymes were like that when I wrote the module. I don't know whether it's better to keep the tie or remove it, but we should be consistent. What do you think? Benwing2 (talk) 16:21, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 I think the tie should be kept for now. kutsara while syllabized as kut.sa.ra, never becomes kut.sha.ra. for Tagalog at least. Ysrael214 (talk) 16:41, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Reporting Konggo currently has Kon.ggo has syllabification but should be Kong.go. Ysrael214 (talk) 11:25, 14 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

bentsingko

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Hi, should this be default-syllabified as ben.tsing.ko or bent.sing.ko? I would think the former, but the latter is what we currently generate, which is currently overridden using {{hyph}} to get the former.

BTW I have a script ready to convert most of the remaining {{tl-IPA}} invocations to {{tl-pr}}, checking the syllabification in the process to make sure it matches the auto-generated syllabification and flagging it if not. Benwing2 (talk) 09:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Also boka-insendyo. The default is to syllabify it as bo.ka-in.send.yo but it's overridden with bo.ka-in.sen.dyo. Which is correct? Benwing2 (talk) 09:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Likewise bondying. Also getting back to the first issue, a word like butse pronounced with /tʃ/, should it correctly be syllabified bu.tse or but.se? Benwing2 (talk) 09:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
One more thing -- I know that Spanish words should not break up br, dr, etc. between syllables, but what about similar English-derived words like adres and dayagram? Should these have manual syllabification a.dres and da.ya.gram? Benwing2 (talk) 09:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Also direksyon, should this be di.rek.syon or di.reks.yon? Benwing2 (talk) 09:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Finally, Encarnacion, should this be En.car.na.ci.on or En.car.nac.ion? Benwing2 (talk) 09:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
One more: ewan ko sa'yo, should this be e.wan ko sa'.yo or e.wan ko sa.'yo, and is there a general rule about syllabifying apostrophes or does it depend on the underlying etymology? Benwing2 (talk) 09:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Applied changes. Fixed the consonant cluster code.
bo.ka-in.sen.dyo
bon.dying
For English words, mainly check English pronunciation, a.drés but ad.res (same with English, not always the case but when in doubt this is correct)
da.ya.gram
di.reks.yon
En.car.nac.ion (syllabification), En-car-na-ci-on (hyphenation)
e.wan ko sa.'yo (hmm no specific rule on apostrophes but generally goes with the last one since that indicates a clipping or contraction unless proper noun has apostrophe but usually goes with last one either way). Ysrael214 (talk) 15:29, 15 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 Thanks. I still have a question about words like butse, estutse and kalatsutsi, the default syllabification is currently but.se, es.tut.se, ka.lat.sut.si but I wonder if it shouldn't be bu.tse, es.tu.tse, ka.la.tsu.tsi. Also the word guwardiya, the respelling is guwárdiya which produces a rhyme of /aɾdia/ but the current manual rhyme is just /a/, which is consistent with the headword accentuation guwárdiyá. Which is correct? Benwing2 (talk) 00:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Another question is about huwas. The respelling has huwás which produces a rhyme /as/ but the manual rhyme lists two rhymes, /as/ and /uas/, suggesting there is a second pronunciation húwas. Is this correct? A similar issue occurs with kaya Etymology 1 ("ability; means"), which has two rhymes /aja/ and /a/. Benwing2 (talk) 00:26, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Following default which is more consistent with the rules provided by the committee of Filipino when syllabifying. Guwardiya seems to be leftover code. Huwas, likely editor dont know yet that it's supposed to be just starting from the stressed syllable, 2021 edit. Ysrael214 (talk) 00:43, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
BTW as I mentioned above, I wrote a script to convert instances of {{tl-IPA}} to {{tl-pr}}, checking the manual hyphenation and rhymes against the auto-generated ones to make sure they're not different (this is where my questions are coming from). It issued 390 warnings of various sorts, and I'm about 75% of the way through cleaning them up (offline). If I get them done this evening I'll push all the changes to production. A few more issues:
  • (1) magmartsa and martsa; should they be mag.mar.tsa and mar.tsa, or the default mag.mart.sa and mart.sa?
  • (2) similarly, porendyer, should it be po.ren.dyer or the default po.rend.yer? you already fixed this;
  • (3) Paguia, Paguio; the default syllabification is Pa.gui.a, Pa.gui.o but I wonder if it should instead be Pagu.ia, Pagu.io;
  • (4) Pinoy step; this is tricky because the phonetic version has an extra syllable not in the phonemic version. The default syllabification is 'Pi.noy step' but the manual syllabification is 'Pi.noy s.tep'. Which is correct? Similar examples are sari-sari store, spakol, strikto.
Benwing2 (talk) 03:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Fixed 1. For 3, same case I think with Caguiat in the test cases? Keep 1 syllable instead of 2 for now for step. so store spa.kol strik.to Ysrael214 (talk) 03:36, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. Yeah, (3) is like Caguiat; I'll fix that along with cases like María. Benwing2 (talk) 03:47, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 For Caguiat. I'm thinking of a brute force that Ca.gui.at and a stress isn't on the gui, combine gui, with the next character. But maybe there's a better solution than that. Ysrael214 (talk) 04:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 I'm making some changes to syllabify_from_spelling(), and to fix that, I'm temporarily replacing gu before [eëiy] with ǵ (a single characater) and qu before [eëiy] with (likewise), then undoing the change at the end. Benwing2 (talk) 04:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Reporting Sto. Domingo should have syllabification Sto. Do|min|go on manual syllabification. Ysrael214 (talk) 08:32, 18 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ysrael214 Thanks. Yup this is a bit tricky because dots can stand for syllable divisions. But I think this is resolvable using a different divider when there are dots in the pagename. Benwing2 (talk) 08:35, 18 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Hello, I think the (more native-sounding) pronunciation rhymes should be categorized still. Currently for Alvarez, the -albaɾes rhyme don't count. Ysrael214 (talk) 12:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

pages with Pronunciation but no Template:tl-IPA

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These mostly have a {{hyph}} template or occasionally a {{rhymes}} template, and nothing else:

Benwing2 (talk) 08:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Benwing2 I'll take a look at these, but it seems like we're mostly done with the IPA conversions. Good job! Ysrael214 (talk) 14:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2 Bug report: Allows no input but has some inline args.
giving IPA(key): // [], given example by {{tl-pr|<syll:testing>}}
OK, thanks, I'll fix. Benwing2 (talk) 18:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

"maintenance" (maintenance drug)

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Commonly used in PH to refer to medications for conditions like diabetes and hypertension, but I haven't seen this yet here in WT. Is this some only in the Philippines usage? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@TagaSanPedroAko Not sure. Ysrael214 (talk) 11:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Haven't you tried to find usage examples? To be clear, "maintenance" here is short for "maintenance drug", which I think to be a PH-only usage.
TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 19:46, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko I can't find "maintenance" as an ellipsis in English usage so maybe it is. US seems to use "maintenance medication" but in full. Ysrael214 (talk) 20:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko Though isn't PH "maintenance" context-dependent? Not sure. Ysrael214 (talk) 20:32, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's context-dependent. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
@TagaSanPedroAko You can include it still I guess. Ysrael214 (talk) 21:45, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply