User talk:Mr. Granger

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Again, welcome! Ultimateria (talk) 01:25, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

fartaton etc.[edit]

How did you determine that these were created in error; did you confer with their creator? Or do you just mean that you believe them to be wrong? —RuakhTALK 05:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

The entries were created automatically by User:MewBot from the conjugation template on farti. The template was for a transitive verb, so forms like "fartaton" were created. But "farti" is an intransitive verb, so these forms are actually impossible.Mr. Granger (talk) 12:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Oh, I see now: you posted in the Tea room, and CodeCat (talkcontribs) suggested you add {{delete|created in error}}. I don't think that's good advice in general — I think {{delete|created in error}} should be reserved for cases where the actual creator says, "Oops, I created that by mistake", rather than cases where a random person decides (however justly) that it shouldn't have been created — but in this case CodeCat is the owner of the bot in question, so I guess it works out. (And of course, it's not a big deal to begin with.) —RuakhTALK 05:00, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Okay. Just so I know for the future, if I run into more pages like these, how would you recommend I label them? Mr. Granger (talk) 04:19, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

moviĝo[edit]

Does moviĝo only cover sense #1 of movement? I think we can and should do a lot better then most printed bilingual dictionaries in not using single, highly polysemous, English words to define Esperanto words.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:39, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, that's a good point. (As it happens, moviĝo refers to physical movement; movado refers to social change.) I'll try to remember to specify with words like these. Mr. Granger (talk) 12:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Pinyin of 一个[edit]

Even though it may not be pronounced with the full tone, it is still spelt “yīgè” in dictionaries, like Yellow Bridge. 〜britannic124 (talk) 12:26, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

It seems you're right about that. All the same, I'm going to add "yīge" as a second pronunciation, because it really is said with a neutral tone. Mr. Granger (talk) 14:18, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes we really do need some standard way to include both "dictionary tones" and post-sandhi tones for multisyllablic Chinese entries. — hippietrail (talk) 09:39, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Well, the tone sandhi is a separate issue. If it were up to me, we would write "yíge", with the tone sandhi, but for some reason our policy in WT:About Chinese#Tone sandhi is to ignore tone sandhi when writing pinyin. I actually don't understand the rationale behind that at all - do you?
For neutral tones, I'm not sure what to do. I sort of think it has to be handled on a case-by-case basis, because there are some words (like 我们) that always have a neutral tone, and others (though I can't think of one at the moment) that can have either a full tone or a neutral tone. And there are some words (like 孙子) that have different meanings depending on whether it's a full tone or a neutral tone. Mr. Granger (talk) 16:47, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Forseti[edit]

Hi Mr. Granger,

I do think your rollback on Forseti was in error, the claim that Forseti would be mythological is a w:POV, perhaps a widely shared POV amongst followers of the god of genocide, but still a POV. Reverting it, giving a reason for the revert, is OK. Abusing your extra powers to force a certain religion, is not OK. --80.114.178.7 21:41, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi. Here are my reasons for reverting your edit:
  1. Most English speakers know what Norse mythology is, so the context label "Norse mythology" helps clarify what the term "Forseti" refers to. The term "Ásatrú" is much less well-known, and the definition "(Ásatrú) The god of justice" is unlikely to help most readers understand the meaning of "Forseti".
  2. Based on Wikipedia as well as my own experience, it is much more common to refer to Forseti as a Norse god than as an Ásatrú god.
  3. Your removal of the word "Æsir" left the definition appearing to assert that Forseti is the god of justice, rather than simply the god of justice within one particular religion. The original definition does not make any assertion about the existence or nonexistence of Forseti; it merely categorizes Forseti within the same group of gods as Odin, Nanna, Thor, and so on.
  4. Category:en:Norse mythology seems to be Wiktionary's standard way of categorizing words for Norse gods, and I don't see that there's any good reason to treat "Forseti" otherwise.
Mr. Granger (talk) 23:38, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Those aren't reasons to use rollback in my (not so) humble opinion.
Forseti isn't just a Norse god (he's known southwards), but most of all, Ásatrú is less mythological than, say, Christianity or US exceptionalism. You may disagree, and that's a good reason to start a discussion (even, perhaps, after reverting my edit), but it's not a reason to abuse your special rights. --80.114.178.7 01:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
On your points
  1. You seem to assume your surroundings are "most English speakers". --80.114.178.7 01:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  2. How do you distinguish Æsir and Ásatrú when used attributively? Forseti isn't an Æsir god, he's an Áss. --80.114.178.7 01:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  3. I did not, I gave the context "Ásatrú". Your version uses mythology, which is a strong claim of non-existence in those versions of English that I know of. --80.114.178.7 01:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  4. That's just "following the lemmings", not a good reason to use rollback. --80.114.178.7 01:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Please calm down. Perhaps you're used to Wikipedia where rollback is less often used; here, because of the low number of rollbackers, we use it often. The label 'Norse mythology', which seems to be your prime bone of contention, is perfectly valid. It's not a truth or value judgement; it's merely to help people understand the context of the word without having to do further research. Other mythology-specific contextual terms are not helpful here, as they force the reader to look up the terms elsewhere, which rather defeats the point. And to be honest we are not interested in debating any of the various topics you reference. Cheers! Hyarmendacil (talk)
I think I am calm. I also think that using "Norse mythology" vs. "Christianity" or "Judaism" is a value judgement. Abrahamist mythology is, like Ásatrú, just a bunch of myths (as in "commonly-held but false belief, a common misconception"). --80.114.178.7 14:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
"Æsir god" just looks strange, there is no god of the Æsir, the Æsir are gods (or not, if one is free of those superstitions). Ehmm, I mean strange like PIN number looks strange if one knows what PIN is. --80.114.178.7 14:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Populous, edzino[edit]

Please don't delete meanings just because you haven't heard of them. There'd be no point in a dictionary if it only contained what we already knew. A check of GBooks, including linguistic refs, is enough to show 'populous' is a common way to speak of languages with many speakers. In fact, apart from paraphrases like the one I just gave, it's the only unambiguous way of saying it that I'm aware of.

As for e·dzi·no, /dz/ is a single consonant and so shouldn't be divided, any more that naǔa would be syllabicized *na·ǔa. Actually, maybe it should just be edzi·no, depending on whether you allow a single letter to be separated in hyphenation. kwami (talk) 06:18, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for listing that source for 'edzino'. Interesting that /dz/ is analyzed as a single consonant.
As for 'populous', Google Books gets 26 hits for "populous language" compared to more than 1,000 hits for "populous country" - this suggests to me that "populous language" is not a particularly representative example of how the word is used, and probably shouldn't be used in our example sentence. (As for another way to phrase a sentence like that, I would say "widely spoken language", which also gets over 1,000 GBooks hits.) —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 07:00, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
"Widely spoken" means something different. English, Spanish, and French are each more widely spoken than Chinese, but Chinese is more populous than all three of them put together. Some people say "most spoken", but that somehow sounds incorrect to me; I keep thinking compared to what, "most written"? "most signed"? Languages have "speaking populations", which I suspect is how "populous" comes in. You may be right about it not being a good example, but on the other hand I didn't want to leave people thinking it only had that narrow range of people in a geological area, even if that's how it's mostly used. But it's not really a separate meaning, either, so I didn't want to create a separate entry. Not sure if religions are described the same way. But edit as you see fit; I won't revert again.
People often assume that dz is two consonants because Zamenhof said Esperanto is 'one letter–one sound', but it isn't really. /dz/ and the diphthongs are exceptions; /dz/ was probably just not common enough to bother creating a new letter, especially since it's spelled dz way in most European languages. You can tell from how he compounds things that he had – or at least expected others to have – various kinds of assimilation, so for example b d g z become p t k s before p t k s, and vice versa, and v would probably become ŭ at the end of a syllable, so you have to say lavo-baseno, because *lavbasena would be a homophone for laŭbasena. That all contradicts the "one letter–one sound" principal. The phonology is awfully close to Belorusian, which does these kinds of things. kwami (talk) 07:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Huh. That's so interesting. Does the Plena Analiza Gramatiko have all this phonological information? Or if not, is there another work you can point me towards? And just out of curiosity, do you know of any other morphemes in Esperanto (besides edz) that have the /dz/ sound? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 07:56, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, the PAG discusses how /dz/ is a single phoneme but the letter j has two values (as a consonant /j/ and an element /i̯/ of vocalic diphthongs).
There's adzo "adze", but other than edzo it's a rather rare sound. You find it sometimes in proper nouns. BTW, AFAIK d+z would still be a sequence, just as ts isn't the same as c. kwami (talk) 09:05, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Trimming cites[edit]

Feel free to trim cites at main entry page, but please retain all cites at Citations:fucking machine so as to be a more expansive page for archival purposes. Thank you, -- Cirt (talk) 22:04, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

All right, I'll leave them be, but I think it's utterly silly to have four citations that are all unambiguously referring to the same URL. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:09, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

fem[edit]

Why have you removed my edit (transcription)?

The source I have used: http://lexin.nada.kth.se/lexin/#searchinfo=both,swe_swe,fem; It clearly shows: fem [fem:] (long "m")

The transcription used in that dictionary is not IPA. They use å in it, for example, which isn't an IPA character. So the length mark might mean something very different from what it does in IPA, they probably have their own conventions for it. —CodeCat 18:31, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
To see how IPA transcriptions are used for Swedish on Wiktionary, see Appendix:Swedish pronunciation. —CodeCat 18:33, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. Yes, it's clear that they do not use IPA. I just checked their conventions. The meaning of the "colon" is explained: http://lexin.nada.kth.se/lexin/#main=3;searchinfo=both,swe_swe,sex; "Längd Långt ljud betecknas med kolon omedelbart efter det långa ljudet, t.ex. skalla [²sk'al:a] och skala [²sk'a:la]" (Long audio designated colon immediately after the long sound, such as score [²sk'al:a] and scale [²sk'a:la]). So, sounds like a length sign.
But the length is not a phonemic difference in Swedish. It's "automatic", a consonant after a short vowel is automatically lengthened. So it's really only the vowel length that matters, and that's the only length that should be indicated I think. —CodeCat 19:14, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
I agree. w:Swedish phonology#Phonotactics has some information that looks relevant. As a side note, the IPA symbol for length is ː, not a colon. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 19:16, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
The broad transcription of the story doesn't have long consonants, but the narrow one does. I think Wiktionary follows the same rule, at least the appendix has the same transcriptions. —CodeCat 19:23, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Makes sense, thank you. I think this issue could be closed.

Literacy[edit]

Why did you revert my edit? Proxima Centauri (talk) 16:29, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Because the information you added, while perhaps appropriate for an encyclopedic article about literacy, did not constitute additional definitions of the term "literate". If you feel that the shades of meaning of "basic" and "functional" literacy are important, I suggest incorporating that information into the Wikipedia article Literacy, or adding a quotation, usage example, or maybe a usage note that illustrates their use. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:43, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

perdo[edit]

I didn't make that up. See the entry of L&S: "As the pass. of perdo, only pereo, perditus, perire appear to be in good use.—The only classical example of a pass. form in the pres. is: “perditur haec inter misero lux non sine votis,” Hor. S. 2, 6, 59". The same holds for vendo - veneo, or facio - fio. facior, facitur would easily be attestable by Google Books as well; that doesn't mean they are correct.

I also read this on a forum: "Well with some of them (based on the reasearches) we really can securely say that for example: perdor, perderis, perditur, perdimur, perdimini, perduntur or "vendor, venderis... etc" seem strange to a classical Roman who would consciously use a synonym in that kind of construction.

So you are right: the passives are not missing (and there are few attested examples for "perditur" (for instance) ), but there was a real existing tendency not to use them in the place where they are semantically expected."

I think that for a language as Latin, which is not anybody's native language, we should really stick with the correct forms, or the attested mistaken forms. The mistakes we, moderns, make, were not necessarily made by Romans. --Fsojic (talk) 22:23, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so here's how I interpret the situation (correct me if I'm wrong): It looks like the passive forms of perdo were not often used by the Romans (although they must have been sometimes, given the quote from Horace). But at some point in history people started using them - medieval Latin, I guess. Because they're attestable, we should have entries for them, but probably with a usage note in the entry for perdo explaining the situation. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:29, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

guión[edit]

Hi. I wanted to ask you about the usage note you added. Are you sure that what you said about the RAE position is accurate? It does not sound right to me. The word guión is only one syllable, which is why the accent is redundant. Previously, guión was accented because (as I understand it) of the last three letters, -ión, which heretofore had always to be accented (acción, avión)...or else because the last two letters, -ón, had always been accented (cajón, rayón). This made the unaccented guion look odd, incomplete. But (as I understand it) it was decided that, in keeping with pure logic, the single-syllable guion did not need an accent because the accent has no effect. I’m not suggesting that you’re mistaken, I’m just check to see if you’re sure, because it does not seem reasonable that guión would ever be pronounced as two syllables. If it were two syllables, it would need to be spelled guiyón. —Stephen (Talk) 11:34, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure, but I think my usage note is accurate. I'm going off of this source, which says:

Como consecuencia de la aplicación de estas convenciones, un grupo limitado de palabras que tradicionalmente se habían escrito con tilde por resultar bisílabas (además de ser agudas terminadas en -n, -s o vocal) en la pronunciación de buena parte de los hispanohablantes —los que articulan con hiato las combinaciones vocálicas que contienen—, pasan a considerarse monosílabas a efectos de acentuación gráfica, conforme a su pronunciación real por otra gran parte de los hispanohablantes —los que articulan esas mismas combinaciones como diptongos o triptongos—, y a escribirse, por ello, sin tilde, ya que los monosílabos no se acentúan gráficamente, salvo los que llevan tilde diacrítica.

Las palabras afectadas por este cambio son formas verbales como crie, crio, criais, crieis y las de voseo crias, cria (de criar); fie, fio, fiais, fieis y las de voseo fias, fia (de fiar); flui, fluis (de fluir); frio, friais (de freír); frui, fruis (de fruir); guie, guio, guiais, guieis y las de voseo guias, guia (de guiar); hui, huis (de huir); lie, lio, liais, lieis y las de voseo lias, lia (de liar); pie, pio, piais, pieis y las de voseo pias, pia (de piar); rio, riais (de reír); sustantivos como guion, ion, muon, pion, prion, ruan y truhan; y ciertos nombres propios, como Ruan y Sion.

Aunque la ortografía de 1999, donde se establecieron las citadas convenciones, prescribía ya la escritura sin tilde de estas palabras, admitía que los hablantes que las pronunciasen como bisílabas pudiesen seguir acentuándolas gráficamente. En cambio, a partir de la edición de 2010, se suprime dicha opción, que quiebra el principio de unidad ortográfica, de modo que las palabras que pasan a considerarse monosílabas por contener este tipo de diptongos o triptongos ortográficos deben escribirse ahora obligatoriamente sin tilde.
So unless I'm misunderstanding, which is possible, there are indeed speakers who pronounce guion as two syllables, but the RAE recommends writing it without the accent anyway, to promote "unidad ortográfica". —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 13:11, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it says that some speakers add extra time (mora timing) to the initial vowel so that what is supposed to be monosyllabic (1 mora) takes twice as long, equivalent to two syllables. But these words have always been considered to be one syllable (or if part of a longer word, a single syllable), and pronouncing them longer was improper (except in some cases of poetry or song where the metrics required more time...as in "vaya con Di-os, mi vida"). This only came up as an argument when in 1999 they recommended dropping that accent mark since these were monosyllables. That’s when some people started claiming that they could be bisyllabic for some speakers, and that those speakers should be allowed to continue writing the accent. What they say now is that these were always monosyllables, and pronouncing them longer is wrong (except as noted above), and that dropping the acute is compulsory.
So I think your usage note gives far too much weight to the idea that these syllables were ever considered bisyllabic. They were not, they were always monosyllabic, and some people just mispronounce them. The reason that the accent is now required to be removed is that the syllables are monosyllabic (and it does not indicate a change in pronunciation, since they have always been monosyllabic). —Stephen (Talk) 13:59, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
I see. But the source I linked doesn't say that the two-syllable pronunciation is incorrect—it says, "Esta convención es puramente ortográfica, por lo que no implica, en modo alguno, que los hablantes deban cambiar la manera en que pronuncian naturalmente estas voces, sea con hiato o con diptongo." So it seems reasonable to me to indicate that the RAE currently acknowledges that there are some speakers who pronounce the words with two syllables, no? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:27, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
I think your usage notes gives much too much weight to that idea. A lot of people will give it extra timing, but it is not considered correct and is not taught in schools. In school you will learn that these words are monosyllabic, cannot be divided into more syllables, and you learn the proper spelling. Nobody is taught that you can pronounce longer, but some people, especially foreign students, will take it upon themselves to do it anyway. The usage note should not even mention having two syllables. If there is a note at all, it should only stress that it is a single syllable and cannot be divided. Pronunciation has not changed. The only that that has changed is that, since the word is monosyllabic (as it has always been), the accent is superfluous and now must be removed. —Stephen (Talk) 14:53, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Hmm. I'm uncomfortable completely omitting the mention of the two-syllable pronunciation, considering that the RAE acknowledges that some native speakers use it. How does something like this look to you?
"This spelling is deprecated by the Real Academia Española, whose position as of 2010 is that the proper pronunciation of guion is as one syllable, and even speakers who pronounce the word as two syllables should write it without an accent."
Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:13, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
I think it lends legitimacy to the two-syllable argument, and guión was never considered to be two syllables by anyone. It has always been considered to be one indivisible syllable. The two-syllable argument is something that a small number of people thought up fifteen years ago to try to preserve the old spelling, and even then it was never a serious argument, and the two-syllable faction would not have accepted an official decision to actually consider it two syllables and therefore subject to hyphenation at gui-ón. It was not really considered by anyone to be two syllables; they were only arguing that for some people the IPA would be /gion/ instead of /gjon/. I that it is a big mistake to suggest that it is two syllables and I would not mention the phrase "two syllables" anywhere. I don’t see that it needs a usage note at all, but if you have to have one, then I would only say that some speakers pronounce it /gion/ instead of /gjon/, and that the acute accent is no longer permitted, since it has no effect on the pronunciation. —Stephen (Talk) 12:23, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Okay, I'll trust you on this. I've removed the usage note. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:05, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

You are wrong, User:Stephen G. Brown. Words such as "guion", "fiar" and others are pronounced in two syllables by most speakers in Spain and regions of Latin America. This is not a mistaken pronunciation, just a dialectal variation. At the same time, "cliente" is pronounced in three syllables, but "diente" in two. "Guion", "fie", "hui", etc. are considered to be composed of only one syllable solely for orthographic purposes. Please see:

http://prosodia.upf.edu/home/arxiu/publicacions/cabre/cabre_exceptional_hiatuses_spanish.pdf --128.148.231.12 23:51, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:eo-head[edit]

I created this template for Esperanto words. It can automatically detect the part of speech based on the ending, and shows the appropriate inflections and categories. —CodeCat 18:57, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Wonderful! —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:22, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

eo-form of[edit]

I removed the attention category from this for now as it doesn't really work with terms containing multiple inflected words. It might be improved using Lua, like {{eo-head}}. —CodeCat 14:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

basket[edit]

Good evening, is there some speakers who pronounce [ˈbæskɛt] ? 138.229.21.208 00:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

It's possible, especially if they were hyperarticulating. I don't think I've ever heard that pronunciation, though. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:41, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
[ˈbæskɛt] is considered as an incorrect pronunciation ? 138.229.21.208 23:46, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm sure it would be understood, but I think it would probably sound unnatural or be indicative of a foreign accent. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 02:08, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

In American English, the word service is often pronounced [ˈsɚvɪs] or [ˈsɚvəs] ? 138.229.20.210 20:12, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

[ˈsɚvəs] sounds slightly more natural to me, but I'm not entirely sure. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:27, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you record the word fête in English please ? 138.229.20.210 21:01, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I'd rather leave that to someone more familiar with the word—I'm not sure I've ever heard someone say fête out loud. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:07, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you record the word tulip please ? Because the pronunciation of this word is absent in Wiktionary. 138.229.20.210 21:10, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Sure. I'll put that on my to-do list and get to it sometime in the next couple of days. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:12, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes check.svg DoneMr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you ! Did you pronounce as [ˈtuːləp] ? 138.229.20.210 12:11, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:32, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
But [ˈtuː.lɪp] is more standard ? 138.229.20.210 13:50, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure. I think I would only pronounce [ˈtuː.lɪp] if I were emphasizing the word, as in "No, I didn't want a rose—I asked for a tulip!" —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs)
But the word gossip can be pronounced either [ˈɡɒsɪp] or [ˈɡɒsəp] ? 138.229.20.210 14:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that sounds right to me. I think the /ɪ/ in tulip behaves similarly to the /ɪ/ in gossip. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:44, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

But I hear [ˈɡɑsɪp] here. 138.229.20.210 15:22, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Probably because I was pronouncing the word in isolation.
Speakers (myself included) are often pretty bad at consciously describing how they pronounce words. I think you'll probably get more useful information by searching for the words "gossip" and "tulip" on Youtube and listening to how people pronounce them in videos there. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:31, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

The word napkin is always pronounced [ˈnæpkɪn], never [ˈnæpkən] ? 138.229.20.210 16:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

[ˈnæpkɪn] sounds more natural to me, but [ˈnæpkən]/[ˈnæpkn̩] isn't jarring. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:29, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

This pronunciation is [træz] or [traɪ̯z] ? 138.229.20.210 23:29, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds closer to [traɪ̯z] to me, although the second consonant isn't a [r], and I think there's a vowel after the [z]. Maybe [tʁaɪ̯zə]? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:18, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
But the [ə] is very short. 138.229.20.210 00:27, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it is. So maybe [tʁaɪ̯zᵊ]. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

This pronunciation is hard to know that it's [sœɡõdæχ] or [sœɡõdɐɛ̯χ]. 138.229.20.210 00:36, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. If I had to guess, I'd guess the latter, but I'm really bad at distinguishing vowels by ear. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:40, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

This one is it clear ? "Tate" or "tight" ? 138.229.20.210 00:46, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like [taɪt] to me. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:48, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you record the word tête-à-tête [ˌteɪɾəˈteɪt] please ? 162.222.81.116 16:00, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but as with fête, I'd rather leave that to someone more familiar with the word. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you record the word cabin please ? Please pronounce [ˈkʰæbɪn]. 162.222.81.116 16:13, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to take requests if you're going to tell me how to pronounce words. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:25, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Because you want to pronounce it with your accent ? 162.222.81.116 16:30, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you record the word sung please ? Because it's absent in Wiktionary. 162.222.81.116 17:10, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. You know there's a template {{rfap}} for this kind of thing, right? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 17:44, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

But this recording is not clear. 162.222.81.116 17:56, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean that the audio quality is poor, or that it's difficult to tell what sounds I'm articulating? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:07, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
The audio quality is poor. 162.222.81.116
Sorry. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 19:22, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

This pronunciation is it really [ˈdaɪɛt] ? 162.222.81.116 18:23, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds more like [ˈdajɪt] to me, but I don't know. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 19:22, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely not [ˈdajɪt], but [ˈdaɪɛt] or [ˈdaɪe̞t] are possible. 162.222.81.116 19:37, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

The first syllable is clearly [tã], but the second syllable is [peɪ̯t] or [pæɪ̯t] ? 162.222.81.116 00:48, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's [peɪ̯t]. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:37, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Maybe [pɐɪ̯t] ? 162.222.81.116 01:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Maybe. (Like I said, I'm not very good at distinguishing vowels by ear.) —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 02:28, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Can the word welcome be pronounced [ˈwɛlkɐm] ? 162.222.81.116 12:52, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

The standard pronunciation is /ˈwɛlkəm/, but /ˈwɛlkʌm/ is wrong ? 162.222.81.116 20:27, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

As far as I know, there is no difference between /ˈwɛlkəm/ and /ˈwɛlkʌm/ in standard American English. My understanding is that there is no /ə/ phoneme (at least in American English): [ə] is just a realization of phonemes such as /ʌ/ in unstressed syllables. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:27, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
  • [sɐm] :
  • [ˈheə̯nsəm] :

Do you hear a difference ? 162.222.81.116 22:40, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
So, /ʌ/ and /ə/ are different. 162.222.81.116 00:08, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
No. The /ʌ/ in handsome is unstressed, whereas the /ʌ/ in some is stressed—as a result, they are articulated differently. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:12, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

The word visit is generally pronounced [ˈvɪzɪt] or [ˈvɪzət] ? 162.222.81.116 00:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

[ˈvɪzət] sounds slightly more natural to me, but [ˈvɪzɪt] is not jarring. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:32, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Is there some Americans who pronounce the name Fung as [fʊŋ] ? 138.229.16.216 00:17, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't know. Off the top of my head, though, I can't think of any English words with the sequence /ʊŋ/, so I wonder if it might be phonotactically prohibited. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:24, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Can the word careful be pronounced [ˈkɛɹfʊl] ? 138.229.16.216 00:26, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I pronounce the word [ˈkeəɹfl̩], with a syllabic [l]. For some reason, my computer is displaying the diacritic under the f instead, but it's supposed to be under the l. My dialect has the Marry-merry-Mary merger, so I don't know how speakers of other dialects pronounce the first syllable. And I'm not really sure what other speakers do with the second syllable. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

The word dictionary is pronounced [ˈdɪkʃənɛɹi] or [ˈdɪkʃəneəɹi] ? 138.229.16.216 00:51, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

For me, [ˈdɪkʃəneəɹi]. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:05, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

The word tight is pronounced [taɪ̯t] or [tɐɪ̯t] ? 138.229.16.216 13:21, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Depends on the speaker, although [taɪ̯t] is more common in the United States. I think I say [tɐɪ̯t], or something like it, but like I said, I'm bad at distinguishing vowels by ear. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 13:27, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
  • [taɪ̯t] :
  • [tɐɪ̯t] :

Can you hear a difference ? 138.229.16.216 14:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes. I'm not sure which one is closer to my pronunciation. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:05, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
The word tête is pronounced [tɛt] in French of France, but [taɪ̯t] in Quebec French. 138.229.16.216 16:10, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

You hear [ˈfɔɹəst] or [ˈfɔɹɛst] ? 138.229.16.216 16:42, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

[ˈfɔɹɛst] —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
[ˈfɔɹɛst] is existent ? 138.229.16.216 16:55, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Apparently so. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 17:01, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Goodness can be also pronounced [ˈɡʊdnɛs] ? 138.229.16.216 17:05, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I've heard [ˈɡʊdnɪs] and [ˈɡʊdnəs], but not [ˈɡʊdnɛs]. 138.229.16.216 15:12, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

The word chicken is generally pronounced [ˈtʃɪkɪn] or [ˈtʃɪkən] ? 138.229.16.216 17:49, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I think both pronunciations are common. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:08, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

arbitrary section break[edit]

Message [ˈmɛseɪdʒ] is surely wrong ? 138.229.16.216 21:15, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes. I've never heard that pronunciation, and it's very jarring to me. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:57, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

The word on is often pronounced [ɑn] or [ɒn] ? 138.229.16.216 22:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I think [ɑn] is rare. 138.229.16.216 22:42, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I think it varies by speaker. But why are you asking me all these questions? I know the IPA and I'm a native speaker, but I'm no phonologist. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:47, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Because I just want to know how to pronounce it in American English, but I live in Montreal. 138.229.16.216 22:51, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I know the IPA by heart ? How to pronounce [ɹ] and [ɻ] ? I don't hear the difference between [ɹ] and [ɻ]. 138.229.16.216 23:35, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Fortunately, [ɹ] and [ɻ] are completely interchangeable in American English, with many speakers pronouncing something in between the two. The best advice I can give you is that [ɻ] is pronounced with the tip of your tongue pointed nearly straight up, whereas [ɹ] is pronounced with the tip of your tongue pointed at or below your alveolar ridge. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:39, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

This one is [ɹɛd] or [ɻɛd] ? 138.229.16.216 23:42, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

My best guess is [ɻɛd], but I don't really know. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:55, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
My younger brother has effaced your sentence. 138.229.16.216 15:35, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Mmk, no worries. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:47, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

It's [ivaɪ̯χ] ? 138.229.16.216 16:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like it to me. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Not [ivæχ]? 138.229.16.216 16:10, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't know. It could be. Like I said, I'm not very good at distinguishing vowels by ear. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:11, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Have you already heard someone pronounce the word lung as [lɔŋ] ? 138.229.16.216 20:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Not that I can think of. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 21:00, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

So, this pronunciation is [ɫʌŋ], [ɫɐŋ] or [ɫɔŋ] ? 138.229.16.216 21:06, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

It's [ɡɔt̚] ? 138.229.16.216 21:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Either that or [ɡʌt̚], I think. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:40, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Generally, the phoneme /ʌ/ realizes to [ɐ] ? 138.229.16.216 23:13, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I was taught to transcribe the sound of a stressed /ʌ/ as [ʌ] and an unstressed /ʌ/ as [ə] in American English. The exact quality varies by dialect. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:16, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

But I hear [kʰɐt] with the sound [ɐ] here. 138.229.16.216 01:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Could be. Like I said, the exact quality of the vowel varies by dialect. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:08, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
It's pronounced [ɐ] in your accent ? 138.229.16.216 01:12, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I think it's closer to [ʌ], but I don't really know. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:15, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Do you know the difference of [ʌ] and [ɐ] ? [ʌ] is close to [ɜ], and [ɐ] is close to [a]. 138.229.16.216 13:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I know the difference. I'm just not very good at identifying vowels by ear, including in my own speech. One of these days I should record myself saying a stressed /ʌ/ and look at the spectrogram to see what it is. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • French accent :
  • Canadian accent :

The difference is obvious ? 162.246.52.108 15:08, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:10, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
  • French accent :
  • Canadian accent :

This difference is obvious too ? 162.246.52.108 15:15, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, although less conspicuous than for guêpe. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:18, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

key[edit]

Do you hear a difference ? 162.246.52.108 15:31, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Huh? These look like music videos. What am I supposed to be distinguishing between? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

The pitch of the music is difference ? 162.247.120.215 20:21, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Why are you asking me this? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:26, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Because I just want to know if you know the musical keys. The first version is in F-sharp major, and the second version is in F major. 162.247.120.215 20:30, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I see. Well, I can't identify keys by ear. I don't have much musical training.
I've been answering a lot of questions from you, and I'm not really interested in doing so anymore. If you have requests for pronunciation information or audio recordings to be added to articles, feel free to ask me (or better yet, use {{rfp}} and {{rfap}}), but otherwise I won't be responding anymore. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 20:36, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I will put {{rfp}} where ? 162.247.120.215 20:42, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Please see mayonnaise. 138.229.20.165 12:32, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

The US recording of mayonnaise is not there. 138.229.20.165 13:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the recording ! 138.229.20.165 13:31, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

recording[edit]

Hello, I hear a "boom" at the end" in the file, can you remove it please ? 162.247.120.9 21:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Wilson[edit]

Hello, can you record the name Wilson please ? 138.229.17.197 23:15, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you ! 138.229.17.197 00:28, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Can you record the words kite, thank you, Halloween and tempest please ? 199.59.78.19 16:23, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you can be pronounced as [ˈt̪ɛ̃ŋkjuː] in informal speech ? 199.59.78.19 01:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

[ˈt̪æŋkjuː] is incorrect ? 138.229.17.174 00:03, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

recording[edit]

Hi, can you record the word author, smoothie, dentist and call please ? Because I would like to know Californian accent. Thank you in advance. 138.229.26.26 21:40, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Coast Miwok[edit]

Hello, I saw you created ʔúlki in Coast Miwok. You added as reference the Bodega Miwok Dictionary by Callaghan, Catherine A. Do you still have this dictionary with you. I would be interested to know the translation of "water" in this language? If it is possible to get this information, could you also provide me the exact reference for this translation (the page where the translation is given)? Thank you in advance. Pamputt (talk) 12:07, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't have the dictionary with me, but I'll write myself a note to look up the word for water next time I go to the library (probably in a week or two). —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:39, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Thank you very much. I ask you that because I started to find the translation of the word "water" in all the languages (and the translation in Coast Miwok is missing). I know you already have a such list but the difference with "mine" is I try to find a reference for each translation. To do that, I create the article in that language and I add a reference for it. I di not count precisely bu I think I got around 3000 translations of "water" :D. I will have one more with your help ;D Pamputt (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
@Pamputt: The Coast Miwok word for "water" is líwa, found on page 45 of the Bodega Miwok Dictionary by Catherine A. Callaghan. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:59, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you very much. I added it also on the French Wiktionary. That said, it is a bit surprising because this word also exists in Lake Miwok and means "to be deep" (speaking about water). Moreover, I already found the translation in the languages of the same language family and the word for water is a bit different compared to that one (Plains Miwok: kiˑk, Bay Miwok: kiko, Southern Sierra Miwok: kikˑy-, Central Sierra Miwok: kíkˑy-, Northern Sierra Miwok: kikˑy-) Pamputt (talk) 19:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
That seems suspicious, but assuming you used the dictionary correctly, I don't think we can corroborate it. Just about all of the books I have at my disposal on Miwok lects are by Catherine Callaghan, and I suspect it's the same for you, so I think we're forced to trust her. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:24, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
It is a bit weird. Callaghan gives the following etymology: "From PMiw [Proto-Miwok] *líwa 'deep, water.'" She also lists a number of Coast Miwok compound words that include líwa, such as ʔómu líwa ("whiskey", literally "bad water") and ʔúpuh líwa ("bath water"), which suggest that it's probably not a typo or similar error. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

aletophyte[edit]

How did you find those great citations? I'm in the process of adding -phyte words, and was unable to find good citations for the following:

actophyte
aigiaphyte
aiphyllophyte
aithalophyte
aletophyte
alsophyte
amathophyte
ammochthophyte
ancophyte
axonophyte
bathyphyte
benthopheustophyte
coryphophyte

I would love to know the methods by which you found those citations. See here for discussion. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 01:46, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi JohnC5. Here's how I found them: I searched for "aletophyte" and for "aletophytes" (in quotation marks) on Google Books, Google Scholar, and Google Groups. (Google Groups isn't usually very helpful for academic terms like these, but you never know.) I tried this method for a couple of the words in that list, though, and I couldn't find anything—they really look unattestable. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:53, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Very cool. Google books I use all the time, but I had not thought of Google Scholar or Groups for trying to find attestations. I'll start using these in the future. Thanks! —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 02:12, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks.[edit]

The way that I worded that wasn't meant to be condescending, but nevertheless I prefer your wording better. Thanks much! Tharthan (talk) 23:08, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Admin[edit]

Hey. Fancy becoming an admin once this vandal's gone away? --Type56op9 (talk) 12:27, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Sure! It would certainly be useful next time something like this happens. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:35, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Accept here please --Type56op9 (talk) 12:40, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Your vote has passed, you are an Admin. Please add your name to WT:Admin. Also, see Help:Sysop tools. —Stephen (Talk) 23:56, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

pocketpussy[edit]

I have reverted your change at pocketpussy because I don't think it's proper to simply declare a tradename genericized. The term "fleshlight" is not that common and I wouldn't even say generally known. If someone were to ask "what's a 'pocketpussy?" would it make sense to reply "Oh, you know, a 'fleshlight'" ? I think not. This isn't like saying a flying disc is a "Frisbee". Personnally, I could probably figure out what a the term being defined is but I wouldn't know what a 'fleshlight' was if I hadn't run across an ad, nor would it give me any clues by it's name. 'Artificial vagina' is, however, quite clear, even if you've never encountered one for human use and only knew of those used for livestock or none at all.--BewareofDoug(talk contribs) 20:34, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:55, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Edit of -ism[edit]

"there's no need to go into so much detail about which parts of the definition apply to which derived words"

How about a short note indicating there is no doctrine, ideology, or principle associated with atheism?

Maybe remove the term?

The definition perpetuates false beliefs and reinforces the stigma plaguing atheists. JohnAndrewMorrison (talk) 06:07, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to remove it—atheism is a good example of the usage of the suffix -ism. Moreover, atheism (at least sense 1) is associated with an ideology: the belief that there is no god. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 11:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Your identification of atheism being an ideology is exactly why the notation needs to be made. From Wiktionary: ideology - Doctrine, philosophy, body of beliefs or principles belonging to an individual or group. Not a single belief, or nonbelief as the case is, but a body of beliefs or a codified belief system. Saying atheism is an ideology implies things can be done in the name of atheism, but they can't. It allows blame for past acts of people (Hitler, Marx, Pol Pot) to be assigned to atheism when the fact is these people just happened to be atheist; they were driven to acts of violence by other ideologies (e.g. communism, socialism, naziism) or personal shortcomings, not because they were atheist. This is the negative stigma I refer to. —This unsigned comment was added by JohnAndrewMorrison (talkcontribs).

I disagree with several of the statements you've just made, and in particular with the idea that stating that the word atheism is sometimes used to refer to an ideology implies that Hitler was evil because he was an atheist. To reiterate my point, atheism (in the narrowest sense) refers to "a doctrine, ideology or principle" (per the relevant definition of -ism). If you disagree with this, I encourage you to bring it up in the WT:Tea room, where we can get the opinions of other editors. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:37, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Did you look at the definition of atheism here on Wiktionary? The only mention of doctrine is in the "loose" definition and says a lack of belief in a doctrine. "To reiterate my point, atheism (in the narrowest sense) refers to "a doctrine, ideology or principle" (per the relevant definition of -ism). " Is a circular argument, it is fallacious. You are saying he definition of atheism given in -ism is accurate because that is the way it is defined in -ism. You have completely made my point. If you compare the Wiktionary definition of atheism with the definition it is given in the -ism entry you have to conclude the -ism definition is wrong. I never said it was asserted that Hitler was evil because he was atheist. What is asserted is there are claims that the atrocities he committed were in the name of atheism. You can disagree with my claim that atheism is used to assert the atrocities of Hitler, Pol Pot, Marx, etc., were done in the name of atheism, it is just an opinion. I have personal experience, more than a dozen people arguing this point with me, and demonstrable truth it is. Here is Aslan Reza, a recognized expert in religion wordwide, saying exactly this. It at 14:30 of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGBsmvRbpck. I will post this discussion in the Tea room as suggested.

Moving attestion for RfV failed items to Citation space[edit]

I moved the squish citations to Citations:squish. They might be useful someday. DCDuring TALK 02:36, 13 April 2015 (UTC)