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Welcome to the Information desk of Wiktionary, a place where newcomers can ask questions about words and about Wiktionary, ask for help, or post miscellaneous ideas that don’t fit in any of the other rooms.

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September 2017

'hac' script[edit]

Administrators please change 'hac' script from Arab to ku-Arab. Hawrami and Central Kurdish have same alphabet. The current script (Arab) doesn't display the specific letters well. For example, {{m|hac|شێر|tr=lion}} produces شێر (lion) with disjointed ێ, unlike the desired form of شێر. Thanks.--Calak (talk) 13:02, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Done --Z 07:59, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

I would like to propose the following change to the .Arab font stack MediaWiki:Common.css, following my suggestion from last month: font-family: Iranian Sans, Segoe UI, Tahoma, Microsoft Sans Serif, Traditional Arabic, sans-serif;. (Code2000 is shit too.) —suzukaze (tc) 08:08, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Interested to add words from Odia Language[edit]

I am interested in adding many Odia words to the English Wiktionary. I know how to use bot and I operate bot too. Do I have to request for bot access? If yes then I want to have bot access. Please give your feed back or support if you agree. Do I have to perform any other task before that? Please suggest. Currently I have the word formats like this.

Odia word English meaning or/and translation

--Jnanaranjan sahu (talk) 09:28, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

@Jnanaranjan sahu: ଧନ୍ୟବାଦ୍. You will need to request bot access per the process at Wiktionary:Bots. I would recommend that you take a look at a few of the entries that we already have in Odia first. —Justin (koavf)TCM 15:43, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
@Jnanaranjan sahu: Yes, you'll need to get permission in order to run a bot. Before you even ask, though, I would recommend working on entries without a bot for a while so we can see that you know how to do entries that meet Wiktionary standards (see, for instance our Entry layout page). Chuck Entz (talk) 22:20, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for your insights. I will be soon analyzing and updating words with the proper layout.--Jnanaranjan sahu (talk) 05:31, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Category:Terms with historical senses by language vs. Category:Historical terms by language[edit]

What's the difference between these? And why does the latter mostly consist of empty categories -- should it be kept at all? — Kleio (t · c) 16:13, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

It's part of an effort to split categories between things that apply to entire words, and things that merely apply to one sense of a word. We have a separate {{tlb}} for term-wide labels. It never really got off the ground though. —Rua (mew) 16:44, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Oh, TIL about {{tlb}}, I suppose that distinction does make sense. Not sure how I feel about putting it in the headword line tho, some languages have quite some info in the headword line already and pasting the template there only adds to the clutter. — Kleio (t · c) 17:58, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm personally not a fan of putting lots of inflection on the headword line. English, Danish and Norwegian are big culprits. I'd rather put it in an inflection table unless it's literally just one form like in the case of the English plural. —Rua (mew) 18:19, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
@CodeCat So you mean that we should create a simple template to organize verb forms in those languages? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 02:01, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Lombardic terms[edit]

Are the at Lombardic terms bizzo, furh, panch, pretil, skura, stapho (Category:Lombardic) really properly attested, and not reconstructed from Italian words or the like?
Some remarks:

  • With google books some of these terms can be found in secondary literature without an asterisk as e.g. "logb. "bredil", "predil", "pretil" = sgabello", and with an asterisk as e.g. "*bredil/*predil/*pretil 'sgabello'", while sometimes it's a bit ambigious as e.g. "long *bredel/pretil 'Brett; Schemel'" or "Long. *bredil/predil/pretil 'sgabello'". (Does *A/B mean *A/B [reconstructed A, or (non-reconstructed, properly attested) B] or is it short for *A/*B [reconstructed A or reconstructed B = reconstructed: A or B]?)
    From the google books results I see, I get the impression that at least bredil/predil/pretil is reconstructed and that some people don't use * or a bit sloppy.
  • Carl Meyer (Sprache und Sprachdenkmäler der Langobarden. Quellen, Grammatik, Glossar, Paderborn, 1877) doesn't have these terms. - 08:08, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
    • Since we consider Lombardic a dialect of Old High German, it should be sufficient for these spellings to be attested somewhere in OHG, although if they're not attested in Lombardic they shouldn't be tagged {{lb|goh|Lombardic}}. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:34, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
AWB has bizzo, furh and panch (under banc, and not bank which wiktionary has) but for now it doesn't have pretil, skura, stapho.
  • bizzo: I don't know if any of the references is lombardic, but I would have some doubts. Possibly the label "Lombardic" is too narrow or wrong and should be "also Lombardic" or removed.
  • furh: This doesn't seem to mention wiktionary's lombardic sense.
    What if the general OHG meaning is properly attested, and the lombardic meaning is (re)constructed from italian forra? In other words, what if there is only OHG furh meaning 'furrow' and lombardic *furh meaning 'ravine, gorge'? If that's the case, then there shouldn't be the lombardic sense in furh, but there rather should be two entries OHG furh and lombardic - that is an OHG entry with label lombardic - *furh. The alternative of having only furh with both senses but a label like "Lombardic, reconstruced" doesn't seem to be a good idea.
  • panch: The given references are these: "panch: nom. sg. Gl 3,631,20. 640,9. 659,26. 698,5". Die althochdeutschen Glossen, 3rd vol. from 1895 has it (it's volume which can be omitted, page, number). Sources of the glosses, although I doubt that it is much helpful: "Clm. 14689 f. 47a" (for p. 631 and 698), "Codex Florent. XVI, 5 f. 140b", "Codex Vindobonensis 804 f. 187b". Are the glosses lombardic? I'd rather assume it's general OHG. Thus there could be OHG panch, and lombardic *panch (hence panca). So again the label "Lombardic" might be to narrow or wrong and might be "also Lombardic" or removed.
BTW: As of WT:CFI#Number of citations and WT:About Old High German (not having any "list of materials [...]") the glosses can't attest anything for OHG as they're only mentionings and not usages (which is why Wiktionary talk:About Old High German#Mentionings was created).
- 02:16, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
The "list of materials" may not have been drawn up yet, but there is no doubt that OHG is an LDL and that words attested only in glosses are eligible for inclusion. We certainly have gloss-only entries for Old Irish, and plenty of Ancient Greek words that appear only in Hesychius's glossary. I don't think anyone here wants to exclude any attested term in an ancient language with a limited corpus. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:42, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Malaysian Sign Language[edit]

Hello. I'm actually not sure where to ask about it but nevermind. Well, I've been learning Malaysian Sign Language lately and would like to add Malaysian Sign Language entries here. I see that there's already ASL entries here. How do I add a sign language entry here? I don't really understand much how the ASL entries work. Can anyone that know sign language help me? --Malaysiaboy (talk) 14:46, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

What exactly is your doubt? In the technical sense, you add SL entries the same way you add oral language entries: you create the page and add the sections as required by WT:EL; the main difference is that you use ===Production=== instead of ===Pronunciation===.
By far the greatest issue is knowing how to spell individual sign language words, since they rarely have well-established writing systems. In the case of Brazilian Sign Language, which I know a little, the usual way to write words is using the Portuguese translation in upper case (subject to certain considerations); there is some use of Sign Writing, but not much. In this sense, it seems similar to the use of Kanji.
You just have to find out how textbooks and dictionaries spell Malaysian Sign Language words and cite them. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:04, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
I think you should think very carefully about what technical resources such a language would need, and how entries would be searched for and presented to users. I never got the feeling our ASL entries were at all successful or user friendly, so these are unsolved problems. DTLHS (talk) 01:40, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Like how do I name the entry of the SL. For example, hello in ASL is this B@Sfhead-PalmForward B@FromSfhead-PalmForward. Just like what @DTLHS said I'm not sure if anyone refer Wiktionary to find ASL signs. For me, it's kinda hard to understand to read the ASL entries here. I will consider contributing it when I'm ready. Thanks anyway. --Malaysiaboy (talk) 08:04, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


How do you pronounce that name in English? --2A02:2788:A4:F44:8183:7545:1215:7AAE 22:24, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

In IPA, something like /ˈdʒoʊəl/. You can hear an American pronunciation at the start of this video. — Kleio (t · c) 22:32, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
I'd pronounce it in one syllable, /dʒoʊl/, to rhyme with bowl and coal and dole and foal and goal and hole and mole and pole and sole/soul and toll and vole. And I'd pronounce Noel (as a first name, e.g. Noel Coward) to rhyme with the same set. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:37, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks to you both. I've added the second pronunciation you suggested. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:6DA2:F960:CC8F:16D4 19:10, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

October 2017

you mad bro[edit]

I would like to enquire whether the Wiktionary community would deem the existence of such an entry appropriate. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:CCCC:AFF0:AF12:8F7B 08:51, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't, unless it means something beyond "(Are) [[you]] [[mad]], [[bro]]?" —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:23, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

sic translations error[edit]

This Japanese: ママ (ja) (mama) does not belong here. The link takes you to the Japanese word for momma, as does the associated Wikipedia article. If anyone knows the correct word, please add it. Thank you. 04:39, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

The Japanese translation is correct. The problem is that the sic meaning has not yet been added to ママ. Here is an example of the Japanese word for sic showing how it is used:
...his April 1992 interview with the Dolly Llama 〔ママ〕... (implying that "Dally Llama" was so written) —Stephen (Talk) 22:06, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Where to report missing words?[edit]

I just noticed that the word "catchplate" (and "catch plate" too) are missing in the wiktionary. Is there a place to report such words in order to request starting a new entry for them? Fructibus (talk) 16:18, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

@Fructibus: Welcome. The best place would be Wiktionary:Wanted entries. --Barytonesis (talk) 16:24, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

New Dictionary for Stoney Nakoda Language[edit]


I'm working with some communities in the Canadian prairies to create an open-source dictionary for the Stoney Nakoda language. This First Nations language is spoken in a handful of communities and we would like to create a user-friendly dictionary where community members can add words and insert recordings from their phones of native speakers saying these words. We'd also like to tag the recordings by location, as there are differences in pronunciation between the different Stoney-speaking communities.

The dictionary would be more for translation purposes, with words in Stoney/English. Ultimately, we would like to develop something that can be used on mobile devices easily.

Would a wiktionary be the right way to go? If so, how do we create a new dictionary in this language?

Thanks for your help and consideration.

jason —This unsigned comment was added by Mtset (talkcontribs).

What development resources do you have? We definitely don't have easy mobile recording of words right now, but something like that could be developed. DTLHS (talk) 18:40, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
To be more specific: are you looking for an existing platform that has all these features, or if not, would you be able to contribute to developing these features? We have the backend to store the information but the mobile interface and editor need a lot of work. DTLHS (talk) 18:56, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
The English Wiktionary (this very website) is for "language x"→English definitions and is licensed under CC BY-SA 3.0, so that part is good. The plain-text-based editing interface might be intimidating though.
Recordings are uploaded to commons.wikimedia.org first (which is mildly tedious), then can be used on any website in the Wikimedia network (including the English Wiktionary). Note that there is a group of French Wiktionarians working on streamlining that part by creating an intermediate website where entire wordlists are recorded in succession. Marking both recordings and definitions is easily done here (see garage for an example).
There are certainly Wiktionary-based apps out there but I don't know much about those. —suzukaze (tc) 19:07, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
  • "CC BY-SA 3.0" - That's probably only semi-good, especially if they would want to 'port' that Nakoda dictionary, like for example print it. List of authors of Das Wikipedia Lexikon is very long, somewhat messy and some author names are vulgar (e.g. "**sperma**", "Arsch123, Arsch2004, ArschMitOhren, Arschgeige3, Arschimedes, Arschmich"). Yet even this long list of authors probably wouldn't be enough for CC BY-SA 3.0.
  • "where community members can add words" - That sounds like it could violate WT:CFI#Number of citations.
- 20:38, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Any person who supports Template:senseid removals?[edit]

WTF is going on with admins at this wiki. Constantly...


Can @Rua explain their removal? d1g (talk) 05:53, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

If I had been the one to remove it, it would have been because "Q5" is not an appropriate senseid. The ID should be something easy to remember, like {{senseid|ru|guy}}. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:23, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
"guy" has 6 meanings. d1g (talk) 12:32, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
But тип corresponds to only one of them. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:41, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Which guy? 6 options.
"guy-1" ... "guy-6" isn't better than Q5. d1g (talk) 16:55, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Are all the terms that you added the senseid to synonyms of each other? —Rua (mew) 17:28, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
They refer to person, so Q5 is appropriate. d1g (talk) 18:13, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
teacher also refers to a person, that doesn't make it a candidate for Q5. —Rua (mew) 18:33, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I support the removal of all senseids and the deletion of the template. DTLHS (talk) 17:37, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, I would appreciate more broad discussion or voting event then. d1g (talk) 18:19, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
It is not clear to me whether any Wikidata entities are allowed to be included in that template, the local policy requires approval for any use of Wikidata content beyond testing and tracking and I don't see the approval for this usage. This is also a WT:BP discussion not an WT:ID discussion. - TheDaveRoss 19:01, 13 October 2017 (UTC)


"Sportscape is a term commonly used in sports marketing to refer to the physical surroundings of a sporting stadium that affect spectators' desire to both attend and to return to that stadium to watch sport (Shank 2002)". [1], [2], [3]. See also landscape, servicescape. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:8546:17EC:C869:4D16 21:51, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Where are interwiki links stored?[edit]


I can't find the code given here in the example entry.

Thanks. Apokrif (talk) 15:59, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Interwiki links for entries are automatic, nothing needs to be done (or indeed, can be done) to add/remove them. —Rua (mew) 16:03, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Perhaps the help page linked to above should be updated accordingly? Apokrif (talk) 16:19, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
It shows 25 interwikis. I think it's working okay. —Stephen (Talk) 20:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I believe @Apokrif is talking about the Help:Interwiki_linking#Entries page, which is now obsolete. Also, doesn't Wikidata have something to do with it? --Barytonesis (talk) 20:21, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, Wikidata deals with it. I updated the Help page. --P5Nd2 (talk) 20:38, 16 October 2017 (UTC)


Is "ΦΙΛΗΜΑΤΟΛΟΓΙΑΣ" (or transcribed and lower-cased philematologias) as found in a title really a Latin word and a Latin inflected form?

  • The usual Latin first declension genitive, even of loans from Greek, is -ae (cp. theologia, Aeneas, cometes). -as could be a younger (like Medieval or New Latin) and rarer genitive form, but is it?
  • Doesn't the Greek script show that it's rather Greek than Latin, like code-switching, citation, mentioning?
  • Assuming it's Latin. As it's written in Greek letters, wouldn't it be Latin ΦΙΛΗΜΑΤΟΛΟΓΙΑΣ or lower-cased φιληματολογίας or φιληματολογιας? And shouldn't there be a cat like Category:Latin terms written in Greek script similar to Category:Chinese terms written in foreign scripts?

- 22:02, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

What do you call the "door" in a pub's bar?[edit]

The bar in many pubs has a section that can be temporarily "flipped" open to allow the staff to move between the bar and the main pub. Is there a name for that? Equinox 22:45, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

"Flip-up counter" / "flip top counter" gets some results. I haven't found anything that looks like a set phrase. DTLHS (talk) 21:56, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

CJK Strokes block[edit]

On Chrome, the characters after U+31CF ㇏ are not displayed. Any solution? Thanx --Backinstadiums (talk) 19:31, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

It's a font issue. I use Chrome too, and they display for me. I would recommend downloading the font Noto Serif CJK SC (or TC). Not sure if you would need a CSS rule to make sure the font is used. — Eru·tuon 21:50, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon: They still aren't displayed; could you please offer step-by-step guidelines to include a CSS rule? --Backinstadiums (talk) 07:39, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Backinstadiums: Open your common.css page, edit it, add the code .Hani { font-family: Noto Serif CJK SC; }, and save. (Change the font name if you downloaded a different font.) I think that should make the characters show up in Appendix:Unicode/CJK_Strokes and other places where they have the CSS class Hani. Let me know if that works. — Eru·tuon 07:49, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon: It hasn't worked. Can you checked my common.css? --Backinstadiums (talk) 08:01, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Backinstadiums: Your CSS code looks correct, if that is the font you have installed. You might try closing Chrome and reopening it to make sure the font has been loaded by Chrome (though closing and reopening the tab usually works for me). If not that doesn't work, I have no idea what the problem might be. I may have been completely wrong. But you could try right-clicking on the character that isn't displaying, pressing "inspect element" in the menu, and then using the Developer Tools to find out what font is being used. See here for a picture. — Eru·tuon 09:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Backinstadiums: The ones that do show up are PMingLiU—Local, while the rest are Arial—Local, so perhaps it's just the squares which are Arial. --Backinstadiums (talk) 13:57, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Backinstadiums: Well, now I really don't know what is going on. Maybe there is another place where you can ask for help. — Eru·tuon 21:29, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Greek dialects and accents[edit]

Old editions of Anacreon (1789, Berlin & Libau; 1807, Wien) don't have accents and for example have Ηρακλεους (cp. Ἡρακλῆς) and δε (cp. δέ). What is it?

  • An old error? Maybe due to typographic limitations?
  • An obsolete form, and a defective one? Maybe because Anacreon's (or more general Ionic) accent wasn't known back then?
  • An alternative form, though a defective one? Maybe because Anacreon's accent still isn't fully known or is not properly attested by very old manuscripts?

Other forms by the way are: Ηρακλέους (1634, Paris; 1782, Lipsia -- with accents, but capital letters without spiritus), Ἡρακλέους (1826, Gotha & Erfordia; 1840, Amstelodamum - 'standard'). - 20:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

It's probably just an editorial decision; they probably thought it was easier to read without the diacritics. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:00, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Category:Latin terms spelled with Ǐ[edit]

All inflected forms of a not yet entered lemma. Should it be created, or should these forms be deleted? DTLHS (talk) 00:41, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

The diacritic should be nuked. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 02:17, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Deleted as bot errors.
Quite an odd error: caron instead of breve. — Eru·tuon 02:47, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I've deleted all the forms and the category. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:58, 18 October 2017 (UTC)