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June 2018

How do I bring in a definition from KANJIDICT?[edit]

KANJIDICT is an online project with a creative commons license which allows copying with attribution. I wish to copy their translations for the (heretofore undefined) kanji From what I can tell from the help pages Wiktionary is fine with direct copying from public domain material and I have no reason to believe there would be a problem with direct importation from this resource either (though it has a creative commons license and is not public domain). For this project I believe a citation in a References section nested under the language would be sufficient. Does this work with the Wiktionary policy too? Bhbuehler (talk) 05:44, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

@Bhbuehler: IANAL, but my understanding is that attribution, ideally with a link, in a References section or even just the edit summary, should suffice for that license. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 11:33, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Thank you Μετάknowledge. You don't need to be a lawyer 😀. Copying something verbatim makes me feel uneasy (even with attribution and the correct license) so I needed a second opinion. Bhbuehler (talk) 05:03, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

In case anyone else needs this information in the future, there is also a KANJIDIC template which automatically puts a reference to the project in the appropriate place. Unfortunately it doesn't have a spot for the Heisig 6th edition number. (Only the old editions.) Bhbuehler (talk) 07:18, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

@suzukaze-c, who edited that template most recently, might be able to help. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 08:33, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I want information about RAAH BABA. Its a puja which is done in Bihar its a very good puja[edit]

Please upload information about RAAH BABA. Its a puja which is done all over BIHAR. I request you to please prove whole story or big information on Raah Baba.

राह बाबा (rāh bābā), पूजा (pūjā)
Wrong place. Please make your request at w:Wikipedia:Requested articles and hi:w:विकिपीडिया:अनुरोधित लेख. —Stephen (Talk) 23:13, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Newbie question: How do I find the code for a template?[edit]

If I go to a template page and click edit, there's no code. I'm trying to find the code for Template:zu-IPA.

Smashhoof2 (talk) 04:41, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

When you see #invoke that means there's a Lua module being used, in this case Module:zu-IPA. DTLHS (talk) 04:43, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Temporary user rights[edit]

Is there such a thing as giving a user special rights for a limited amount of time (like 48 hours)? I think I've seen it on Wikipedia before. (I need to move a bunch of entries to fix an orthography thing, and it would be nice to not leave a ton of redirects the poor admins have to delete). No worries if admin rights are restricted to admins only :-) — Julia • formerly Gormflaith • 00:23, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@Julia: From a technical perspective, it's easy to grant someone a userright briefly. Policy-wise, I also don't think it's a big deal. My concern is that you may be a little off on what your task is in this particular instance: it's okay to have alternate orthographies or spellings (e.g. yogurt and yoghurt or Bahai, Baha'i and Bahá'í). Can you give me an idea of what you have in mind? —Justin (koavf)TCM 00:30, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
@Koavf: Moving all verb that end with "n" in Category:Alemannic German verbs (that don't have another language on the page of course). I've created 100% of them. The "silent n" is not used outside of dictionaries, and is only there to show a historical connection to Middle High German forms. See this discussion on my user page for more details. — Julia • formerly Gormflaith • 00:37, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
@Julia: Oh, well this seems very sensible then. Meine Deutsche nicht ist gut, so I'm not qualified to say anything about whether or not High Alemannic infinitives ended in -n, so if other knowledgeable contributors agree and you made the pages in the first place, it seems reasonable to me. en.wp has a page mover role that we don't have here which allows you to move a page without creating a redirect (i.e. you can delete a page when doing a move), so the only options I see are 1.) having a bot with admin abilities do it or 2.) having a bureaucrat give you admin privileges for 48 hours (which again, is a totally doable thing). —Justin (koavf)TCM 00:42, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
@Koavf: Honestly admin rights would be easier, because as I go through I can check WhatLinksHere, fix those, and I want to add a template as I go through. I probably will be done by like 04:00 UTC tonight or if not 14:00 (tomorrow morning for me), so you or someone else can take it away then. — Julia • formerly Gormflaith • 01:04, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
@Julia I'm an admin but not a bureaucrat. That's a user access level I cannot grant. But changing them comes with the option for them to expire, so no one even needs to deliberately take it away again. —Justin (koavf)TCM 01:49, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
@Koavf I'll ask a bureaucrat tomorrow, then. Thanks for the help. — Julia • formerly Gormflaith • 02:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
@Julia, I've given you temporary admin powers for this purpose. They will expire automatically in one week. —Stephen (Talk) 07:24, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
@Stephen G. Brown Thanks so much. – — Julia • formerly Gormflaith • 11:50, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
@Stephen G. Brown Or maybe should I say thank you so much myself instead, as you gave the rights to me: Special:log/rights/Stephen G. Brown. I let you fix that. Haha :-) — Automatik (talk) 16:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Fixed. Wow, how weird. When I started to add Julia's bit, I decided to check on something and clicked out. Then I clicked back to Julia's page and added the bit without looking at the name. Obviously I clicked too far. Thanks for the headsup. —Stephen (Talk) 21:00, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Estonian inflection table templates[edit]

In many of the Wiktionary entries for Estonian I find “(genitive [please provide], partitive [please provide]) and “This adjective, noun, numeral etc needs an inflection-table template”. These are obviously requests that people have made for the stated forms but for some strange reason nobody ever provides them. I have provided the requested forms but my contributions have been ignored. What is the point of requesting something and ignoring it when it is provided? Here are the forms for teine (second, other, another) and a few other Estonian nouns. Will someone please enter them in Wiktionary instead of ignoring them?

Genitive singular: teise
Partitive singular: teist
Remaining forms:-
Illative singular: teisesse, teise
Inessive singular: teises
Elative singular: teisest
Allative singular: teisele
Adessive singular: teisel
Ablative singular: teiselt
Translative singular: teiseks
Terminative singular: teiseni
Essive singular: teisena
Abessive singular: teiseta
Comitative singular: teisega
Nominative plural: teised
Genitive plural: teiste
Partitive plural: teisi
Illative plural: teistesse
Inessive plural: teistes
Elative plural: teistest
Allative plural: teistele
Adessive plural: teistel
Ablative plural: teistelt
Translative plural: teisteks
Terminative plural: teisteni
Essive plural: teistena
Abessive plural: teisteta
Comitative plural: teistega
kapp (cupboard, wardrobe)
Genitive singular: kapi
Partitive singular: kappi
Remaining forms:-
Illative singular: kapisse, kappi
Inessive singular: kapis
Elative singular: kapist
Allative singular: kapile
Adessive singular: kapil
Ablative singular: kapilt
Translative singular: kapiks
Terminative singular: kapini
Essive singular: kapina
Abessive singular: kapita
Comitative singular: kapiga
Nominative plural: kapid
Genitive plural: kappide
Partitive plural: kappe, kappisid
Illative plural: kappidesse
Inessive plural: kappides
Elative plural: kappidest
Allative plural: kappidele
Adessive plural: kappidel
Ablative plural: kappidelt
Translative plural: kappideks
Terminative plural: kappideni
Essive plural: kappidena
Abessive plural: kappideta
Comitative plural: kappidega
kael (neck)
Genitive singular: kaela
Partitive singular: kaela
Remaining forms:-
Illative singular: kaelasse, kaela
Inessive singular: kaelas
Elative singular: kaelast
Allative singular: kaelale
Adessive singular: kaelal
Ablative singular: kaelalt
Translative singular: kaelaks
Terminative singular: kaelani
Essive singular: kaelana
Abessive singular: kaelata
Comitative singular: kaelaga
Nominative plural: kaelad
Genitive plural: kaelade, kaelte
Partitive plural: kaelu
Illative plural: kaeladesse
Inessive plural: kaelades
Elative plural: kaeladest
Allative plural: kaeladele
Adessive plural: kaeladel
Ablative plural: kaeladelt
Translative plural: kaeladeks
Terminative plural: kaeladeni
Essive plural: kaeladena
Abessive plural: kaeladeta
Comitative plural: kaeladega

Does nael (nail, pound) follow the same pattern as kael? Please check whether naelte occurs as one of the forms of the genitive plural or whether there is only the one form, naelade.

nael (nail, pound)
Genitive singular: naela
Partitive singular: naela
Remaining forms:-
Illative singular: naelasse, naela
Inessive singular: naelas
Elative singular: naelast
Allative singular: naelale
Adessive singular: naelal
Ablative singular: naelalt
Translative singular: naelaks
Terminative singular: naelani
Essive singular: naelana
Abessive singular: naelata
Comitative singular: naelaga
Nominative plural: naelad
Genitive plural: naelade, naelte
Partitive plural: naelu
Illative plural: naeladesse
Inessive plural: naelades
Elative plural: naeladest
Allative plural: naeladele
Adessive plural: naeladel
Ablative plural: naeladelt
Translative plural: naeladeks
Terminative plural: naeladeni
Essive plural: naeladena
Abessive plural: naeladeta
Comitative plural: naeladega
kuld (gold)
Genitive singular: kulla
Partitive singular: kulda
Remaining forms:-
Illative singular: kullasse, kulda
Inessive singular: kullas
Elative singular: kullast
Allative singular: kullale
Adessive singular: kullal
Ablative singular: kullalt
Translative singular: kullaks
Terminative singular: kullani
Essive singular: kullana
Abessive singular: kullata
Comitative singular: kullaga

One would have thought that this is a mass noun and as such has only singular forms. However, apparently plural forms occur. If desired, they are as follows:

Nominative plural: kullad
Genitive plural: kuldade
Partitive plural: kuldasid, kuldi
Illative plural: kuldadesse
Inessive plural: kuldades
Elative plural: kuldadest
Allative plural: kuldadele
Adessive plural: kuldadel
Ablative plural: kuldadelt
Translative plural: kuldadeks
Terminative plural: kuldadeni
Essive plural: kuldadena
Abessive plural: kuldadeta
Comitative plural: kuldadega

—This unsigned comment was added by Johnling60 (talkcontribs).

Sorry if it seems like we're ignoring you. Someone who knows Estonian needs to work on these. @Strombones is one of our Estonian editors. To add these forms, we have to use Estonian templates, such as one found here: Category:Estonian declension-table templates. Maybe User:Strombones could show you how to use the Estonian templates, and then you could add these forms yourself. —Stephen (Talk) 05:20, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Yep, noun inflection is all covered by templates. Verb templates have a few holes (like pidama, which has an irregular passive; there's no verb template for irregular verbs as far as I know). To see a noun's type, consult the ÕS - here's the page for "teine" - as you can see, it is type "oluline", and we have a template for it. It's just not been added to that specific page. For nouns with 2 declension types I usually just add 2 declension tables. For "nael", it is both type "hein" and type "leib". (in this case this is because it has 3 different partitive plurals - "naelu", "naeli", and "naelasid") Nouns also have an irregular template, as seen in lühida, which doesn't have a singular nominative. Strombones (talk) 09:12, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Estonian verb conjugation[edit]

keetma (to boil, to cook) - transitive

Presumably the conjugation of this verb will follow that of saatma (to accompany, to escort, to send), therefore the forms are as follows:

Present indicative active:

Singular: 1st person: keedan 2nd person: keedad 3rd person: keedab Plural: 1st person: keedame 2nd person: keedate 3rd person: keedavad Negative: ei keeda Passive positive: keedetakse Passive negative: ei keedeta

Past indicative active:

Singular: 1st person: keetsin 2nd person: keetsid 3rd person: keetis Plural: 1st person: keetsime 2nd person: keetsite 3rd person: keetsid Negative: ei keetnud Passive positive: keedeti Passive negative: ei keedetud

Perfect indicative active:

Singular: 1st person: olen keetnud 2nd person: oled keetnud 3rd person: on keetnud Plural: 1st person: oleme keetnud 2nd person: olete keetnud 3rd person: on keetnud Negative: ei ole keetnud, pole keetnud Passive positive: on keedetud Passive negative: ei ole keedetud, pole keedetud

Pluperfect indicative:

Singular: 1st person: olin keetnud 2nd person: olid keetnud 3rd person: oli keetnud Plural: 1st person: olime keetnud 2nd person: olite keetnud 3rd person: olid keetnud Negative: ei olnud keetnud, polnud keetnud Passive positive: oli keedetud Passive negative: ei olnud keedetud, polnud keedetud

Conditional present active:

Singular: 1st person: keedaksin 2nd person: keedaksid 3rd person: keedaks Plural: 1st person: keedaksime 2nd person: keedaksite 3rd person: keedaksid Negative: ei keedaks Passive positive: keedetaks Passive negative: ei keedetaks

Conditional perfect active:

Singular: 1st person: oleksin keetnud 2nd person: oleksid keetnud 3rd person: oleks keetnud Plural: 1st person: oleksime keetnud 2nd person: oleksite keetnud 3rd person: oleksid keetnud Negative: ei oleks saatnud, poleks keetnud Passive positive: oleks keedetud Passive negative: ei oleks keedetud, poleks keedetud

Imperative present positive:

Singular: 2nd person: keeda 3rd person: keetku Plural: 1st person: keetkem 2nd person: keetke 3rd person: keetku Passive: keedetagu

Imperative present negative:

Singular: 2nd person: ära keeda 3rd person: ärgu keetku Plural: 1st person: ärgem keetkem 2nd person: ärge keetke 3rd person: ärgu keetku Passive: ärgu keedetagu

Imperative perfect positive:

Singular: 3rd person: olgu keetnud Plural: 3rd person: olgu keetnud Passive: olgu keedetud

Imperative perfect negative:

Singular: 3rd person: ärgu olgu keetnud Plural: 3rd person: ärgu olgu keetnud Passive: ärgu olgu keedetud

Quotative present:

Active positive: keetvat Passive positive: keedetavat Active negative: ei keetvat Passive negative: ei keedetavat

Quotative perfect:

Active positive: olevat keetnud Passive positive: olevat keedetud Active negative: ei olevat keetnud, polevat keetnud Passive negative: ei olevat keedetud, polevat keedetud

Nominal forms:

ma-infinitive active: Nominative: keetma Inessive: keetmas Elative: keetmast Translative: keetmaks Abessive: keetmata ma-infinitive passive: keedetama da-infinitive: da-form: keeta des-form: keetes

Participles:

Present active: keetev Present passive: keedetav Past active: keetnud Past passive: keedetud

Please check that all the above forms are correct then create an inflection table template with the complete conjugation of this verb. Johnling60 (talk) 00:09, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Estonian noun declension[edit]

külmkapp (refrigerator)

Genitive singular: külmkapi
Partitive singular: külmkappi
Remaining forms:-
Illative singular: külmkapisse, külmkappi
Inessive singular: külmkapis
Elative singular: külmkapist
Allative singular: külmkapile
Adessive singular: külmkapil
Ablative singular: külmkapilt
Translative singular: külmkapiks
Terminative singular: külmkapini
Essive singular: külmkapina
Abessive singular: külmkapita
Comitative singular: külmkapiga
Nominative plural: külmkapid
Genitive plural: külmkappide
Partitive plural: külmkappe, külmkappisid
Illative plural: külmkappidesse
Inessive plural: külmkappides
Elative plural: külmkappidest
Allative plural: külmkappidele
Adessive plural: külmkappidel
Ablative plural: külmkappidelt
Translative plural: külmkappideks
Terminative plural: külmkappideni
Essive plural: külmkappidena
Abessive plural: külmkappideta
Comitative plural: külmkappidega

Johnling60 (talk) 00:23, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Estonian noun declension - kael[edit]

Please create an inflection table template for kael (neck) and complete with the declension already given. Johnling60 (talk) 00:33, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Clarification to Wiktionary:Entry layout[edit]

I felt that some of the text in the section List of headings was particularly unclear, in the sense that a reader would not get the intended meaning unless they already knew it. So I devised a replacement text. I cannot apply it myself; the page is locked to prevent editing. "View source" calls up a text that suggests recommending any additions or changes to the page on its talkpage. Which I duly did, here: Wiktionary talk:Entry layout#Indentation?. That was three-and-a-half months ago, but nothing happened.  --Lambiam 16:31, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

As the top of the page says, any change requires discussion, and any major change requires a vote. The forum designated for policy discussion is the Beer parlour; you can try posting your suggested changes there. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 11:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done: posted at the Beer parlour.  --Lambiam 21:06, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Estonian noun declension - raha[edit]

raha (money, currency) Genitive singular: raha Partitive singular: raha Remaining forms:- Illative singular: rahasse, rahha Inessive singular: rahas Elative singular: rahast Allative singular: rahale Adessive singular: rahal Ablative singular: rahalt Translative singular: rahaks Terminative singular: rahani Essive singular: rahana Abessive singular: rahata Comitative singular: rahaga Nominative plural: rahad Genitive plural: rahade Partitive plural: rahasid Illative plural: rahadesse Inessive plural: rahades Elative plural: rahadest Allative plural: rahadele Adessive plural: rahadel Ablative plural: rahadelt Translative plural: rahadeks Terminative plural: rahadeni Essive plural: rahadena Abessive plural: rahadeta Comitative plural: rahadega Johnling60 (talk) 17:18, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Estonian noun declension - kael[edit]

Why has nobody created an inflection table template for this word despite the fact that the full declension is available on the information desk? Johnling60 (talk) 17:21, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

There's only a few nouns with this exact type (both hein and leib), so there's really no point imo in making a special template for just this case. Strombones (talk) 17:29, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Faulty conjugation needs correcting.[edit]

The past participle of einchecken is eingecheckt, not eincheckt. According to duden.de --79.138.78.24 09:42, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done  --Lambiam 11:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

category for mental illness[edit]

Do we have a category for mental illness terms like insanity, madness, delusion, etc.? ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:48, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

There is Category:Psychiatry. Wyang (talk) 06:45, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Frank. That's helpful. ---> Tooironic (talk) 08:48, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

English words prefixed with self-[edit]

self-entitlement

Not “eye dialect”, but rather...[edit]

The entry for the word prolly currently states that it is an “Eye dialect spelling of probably.” That is wrong, because the definition of eye dialect (even its etymology) includes the notion of standard pronunciation, whereas none of the documented possible pronunciations of probably omit the second “b”.

I would correct it but I don't know what to put instead.

Does anyone know what is the proper designation of the phenomenon in question? Is prolly simply a corruption of probably? I find that the definition of corruption (in the linguistics context) is not an ideal match for this need. —This unsigned comment was added by 96.22.66.24 (talk) at 16:06, 23 June 2018 (UTC).

Maybe the correct category for this would be English pronunciation spellings. There were discussions about the fact that words are categorized eye dialect are often actually pronunciation spellings at Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2016/March § Eye dialect and Wiktionary:Tea room/2016/October § eye dialect. — Eru·tuon 23:23, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
In this case, I wouldn't even say it's a pronunciation (re)spelling, I would say it's a clipping of sorts, basically a new word, like tarp is not a respelling but a derived synonym of tarpaulin. - -sche (discuss) 01:37, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
I don't agree. I believe the pronunciation /ˈpɹɒ.li/ instead of /ˈpɹɑbli/ is the result of poor or lazy articulation, as when a speaker is very tired or drunk.
One may distinguish four possibilities (other than typos):
  1. pronunciation standard, spelling standard;
  2. pronunciation standard, spelling non-standard but "phonetic": pronunciation respelling and eye dialect;
  3. pronunciation non-standard, spelling standard: spelling pronunciation;
  4. pronunciation non-standard, spelling non-standard but "phonetic": pronunciation spelling.
An example of case 3 is /ˈɔftən/ for often. I would put prolly squarely in case 4. Another example of case 4 is nucular.  --Lambiam 01:50, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

participles are...[edit]

At Category:XXXX participles (e.g. at Cat:GreekPRTP) I read: ... verbs not fully conjugated, usually to be used in compound conjugations. I cannot understand this. Could it be rephrased? for less learned readers? Like:

  • at wiktionary participle: A form of a verb that may function as an adjective or noun [noun? he means when substantivized?]
  • at wikipedia w:participle: A form of a verb that /is used in a sentence to modify a noun, noun phrase, verb, or verb phrase, and/ plays a role similar to an adjective or adverb
  • at SIL: a lexical item, derived from a verb, that has some of the characteristics and functions of both verbs and adjectives.

At Category:XXX participle forms (e.g. at Cat:Gr.PRTCPforms) I read ...participles that are inflected to display grammatical relations other than the main form.

  • maybe: Xxxx inflectional forms of participles? (or something like that?)

Thank you sarri.greek (talk) 17:03, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Even though the verb of which a participle is a form may, semantically speaking, have a subject, in most languages the subject does not affect the verb form, also in many languages that otherwise indicate the person of the subject in verb conjugations. So while you say, "I am happy and he is happy too", in "my being happy and his being happy are not the same" the form does not change. I suspect that that may be the intention behind "not fully conjugated". I do not understand the intended meaning of the phrase "used in compound conjugations" – or, for that matter, the meaning of "compound conjugation". So a bit of rephrasing may be indicated. The confusion about whether a participle may function as a noun (Wiktionary) or not (other sources) may be due to the particular role of the English gerund. It is a verb form classified (by modern, "linguistically informed" grammarians) as a participle, while it functions, grammatically, rather as a noun. For example, "Even at the Kurdish wedding feasts, I had not seen such merry dancing in circles." Here, dancing, classified as a noun on our Wiktionary, is actually a gerund, and thus (if you believe these informed grammarians) a participle.
So it would seem that a participle is a verb form that may function, grammatically, as an adjective, adverb, or noun. However, which of such verb forms in a given language are actually considered participles depends on the tradition in the grammatical studies of the language in question. A boilerplate text for all languages is presumably not helpful. In German, an infinitive like Essen can serve as a noun, but I don't think German grammarians would call it a participle – presumably because they aimed to apply the traditional concepts of Latin grammar to German, and the Latin grammarians did not call the infinitive a participle. I guess.  --Lambiam 01:09, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
"Compound conjugation" refers, I think, to "am going", "are going", "will be going", "was going", where going is only part of verb. I think "not fully conjugated" is the more confusing part of the label, and would just drop it as unhelpful/unnecessary. Frankly, perhaps the whole thing should be dropped and replaced with "[langname] participles", letting our entry explain what participles are. - -sche (discuss) 01:41, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree. Participles are so many things in so many languages that it would require an essay to fit every language that has them. I still have trouble wrapping my head around some of the uses of Ancient Greek participles, for instance. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
I believe the concept of compound conjugation as explained above is very much not language-agnostic. Turkish has a rich set of participles, but nothing comparable to such "compound" conjugations.
Assuming there is decent text at "[[LANGNAME participle]]", referring there would be an improvement in clarity, but these entries might be hit by SOP objections. And as far as I see, we have exactly zero such entries: no Latin participles, no Greek participles, no English participles. So why not put the appropriate texts that would have to be created anyway directly on the category pages?  --Lambiam 02:06, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
"English participle" would certainly be SOP: the definition should be at participle. Why put definitions on category pages and not in the appropriate entry? Any information which is not definitional to "participle" but rather language-specific could go on the language's About page. The category boilerplate text is, as far as I know, boilerplate applied to all participles. - -sche (discuss) 02:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Who's to say we should house a language-agnostic comprehensive explanation in mainspace? Either make an appendix and link to it, or link to Wikipedia. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:06, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Adding a part of speech[edit]

The L3 header 'Ideophone' was approved and added to WT:EL, but Category:Chichewa ideophones still throws an error. Where am I supposed to add this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:09, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I would assume you would add it into one of the poscatboiler data modules (Module:category_tree/poscatboiler/data). SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 21:13, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks! Apparently it belongs at Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lemmas. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:42, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

July 2018

'kloogy'[edit]

What does 'kloogy' mean?--J. Wiwat (talk) 01:09, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

I've never seen that word, and I cannot find any uses online, even with Google. Out of context, I would guess it's a misspelling of kludgy, but it would be an odd misspelling unless based on a mispronunciation as well. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:33, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
I've always heard kludge as rhyming with stooge, not fudge, and I've been hearing and using it for decades. When I first saw it in writing, I wondered why it was spelled that way. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:41, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, Metaknowledge and Chuck Entz, I appreciate your information. However, I came across a sentence with 'kloogy translations', what sort of translation is that? Presumably, I think it suggests a negative meaning.--J. Wiwat (talk) 09:04, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
"Kludgy translations" seems to fit (saying that the translations are only kludges). - -sche (discuss) 22:42, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, --sche.--J. Wiwat (talk) 00:12, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Turkish pronunciation inconsistencies[edit]

These four entries transcribe doğu- four different ways:

Is each one really pronounced differently, or should they be standardized in some way? Should we have some kind of policy at Wiktionary:About Turkish on how to transcribe /ğ/? Pinging User:Djkcel as the most recently-active editor in Category:User tr-N. - -sche (discuss) 00:32, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

The soft g of Turkish is an issue to be sure. There seems to be some confusion between broad and narrow transcriptions; the allophone that is present in this word is Ø, I believe, but the phoneme should still be represented in broad IPA. @Anylai, Atitarev, Mahagaja, Allahverdi Verdizade, LambiamΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
The most accurate broad transcription in this case is /do.u.../, the narrow transcription would be /doɰu.../. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:10, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia's article Voiced velar fricative, the letter ⟨ğ⟩ may have this phoneme as a non-standard realization in some Turkish dialects. The example given is ağa → [aɣa]. This was once the standard realization before the sound change that made it silent in standard Turkish pronunciation, except for lengthening the preceding vowel in some circumstances. The Wikipedia article Ğ also states this sound change is not yet complete in some Turkish dialects. I have personally never actually observed anyone using this. Turkey is large and my exposure to dialects has been limited, but you will not hear this on the radio or TV. Should we also cater for such rare, non-standard pronunciations? I don't see us doing that for other languages. The Wikipedia article Ğ further mentions that between different rounded vowels (o, u, ö, ü) it is mostly silent, but may be a bilabial glide, like doğu → [dowʊ]. If there is a glide, I think it simply represents speakers' inability to realize the hiatus in a pure, discontinuous way. Personally I don't hear it in doğu, but I do hear it in doğan → [dowan]. I also hear it in fuar (fair, exposition) → [fuwar], so I think it is just a matter of articulation that has no phonetic relationship with the unrealized ⟨ğ⟩.
What about transcribing it as /ɰ/, the voiced velar approximant? The Wikipedia article Ğ states that the ⟨ğ⟩ is “sometimes represented with /ɰ/ for convenience”. I find this a cryptic message; how is this convenient? No source that I know of states that this is an appropriate phonemic realization of the ⟨ğ⟩, even in dialects. Intervocalic, like in doğu, there is also no lengthening.
As to the ⟨o⟩ in doğu, I think it is obviously the IPA phoneme /o/. The /ɔ/ does not occur in standard Turkish. Finally, ⟨u⟩ is normally /u/, but word-final, in an open syllable, it is usually realized with the allophone /ʊ/. In conclusion, I think that in all cases doğu should be transcribed as /do.u/ (for simplicity) or [do.ʊ] (for precision). The use of /ɔ/ and lengthening are wrong, and /ɰ/ serves no useful purpose that I'm aware of (and is not accurate for the standard pronunciation).  --Lambiam 16:43, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
I wish I could give a more helpful answer in technical terms, but in the dialect I've always used (Istanbul) the ğ is almost always silent, as in değmek (to touch). It's usually in front of a vowel to make it sound longer. In Turkish dialects from the east I've heard it pronounced as "gh" like in Arabic. Djkcel (talk) 13:45, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Question 1: Do you feel Wiktionary should list the eastern dialectal pronunciation? We could do something like "(Standard) IPA(key): [doˈʊ] / (Eastern dialects) IPA(key): [doɣˈʊ]". I do hear a nonstandard voiceless velar fricative (also used in Arabic) quite often, also in Istanbul, but only word final, as in çok → [tʃox].
Question 2: "In front of a vowel" – did you mean "in front of a consonant" (as in değmek? I assume you hear the difference between demek and değmek. What do you hear, /dejˈmec/ (which is the pronunciation now given at değmek, and which is how deymek would sound if it was a word) or /deːˈmec/, with an /e/ that is merely lengthened?  --Lambiam 21:49, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
1 - yes, I do think that would be helpful. the Eastern dialects (in a place like Iğdır, for example), are pretty much interchangeable with Azeri.
2 - haha yes, that would probably be the lack of technical knowledge I was talking about, sorry - following a vowel. First syllable of demek to me sounds short like deh while değmek sounds like "day" with a longer vowel. Djkcel (talk) 13:31, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Alternative forms and alternative spellings[edit]

I've created a few entries here now but I'm still confused about when to write "alternative form of" vs "alternative spelling of" vs just repeating a definition. For example, I have done the first in duodecane, the second in chicklit and in foro conscientiæ, and the latter in spermaticide; however I am not confident I have made the best choices. Could someone please explain this to me? BethNaught (talk) 08:46, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

An alternative spelling is a specific type of alternative form that differs only orthographically from the main form. When in doubt, use alternative form. As for the third option, that should be avoided, if possible. Wikis can be edited by anyone at any time, so the definition you repeat may later be completely changed, giving the impression that the entries have different meanings. Worse, one form may preserve an error that was corrected in the other, or an error may be introduced in one form and go unnoticed by those who are watching the other. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:15, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikipédia[edit]

I really feel like I should know this...but I don't, and it's always left me wondering. So, it's finally time to ask it.

Why is the French Wikipedia called natively Wikipédia? It doesn't make sense to me, because I would think a French speaker would name it "Wikipédie." I understand it's a borrowing that uses the accent (probably should be mentioned at the etymology section of that entry but it isn't), but...why did consensus come to that name over "Wikipédie"? Especially when the French Wiktionary is called Wiktionnaire... PseudoSkull (talk) 05:27, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

The French-speaking Wikipedians use the name "Wikipédia" for the whole project, including the original English Wikipedia, and not specifically for the Francophone version. That is why they have separate articles for Wikipédia, corresponding to the article Wikipedia on the English-language site, and for Wikipédia en français, corresponding to the article French Wikipedia on the English Wikipedia. When the main page of the French Wikipedia was created in 2002, it used the name "Wikipedia" just like the English one (as in Bienvenue sur Wikipedia, une encyclopédie libre, gratuite, et écrite coopérativement), but soon this edit (by an anonymous IP, originating from INRIA), changed it to "Wikipédia". I don't know if this was the original move that resulted in the name becoming spelled like it is still now. In May 2014 there was an attempt to Frenchify the name of the French article Wikipédia en français by moving it to Wikipédie en français, but the move was undone 35 minutes later. The French page Wikipédia:Wikipédiste, which is not meant to be taken seriously, (re)defines wikipédien as an inhabitant of the country named Wikipédie.  --Lambiam 22:58, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
If an anon IP was indeed responsible for the addition of the accent, that would make quite a story. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 23:18, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Can this font be installed on Western Windows without any BSoD?[edit]

I want to install the Japanese font "Osaka", which is a TTC file. I have the font file, but I'm afraid from installing it 'cuz a font (Osaka–等幅) has kanji on it. Can this font be safely installed? I have the Chinese, Japanese and Korean versions of Microsoft Office IME 2010. --186.88.113.201 01:08, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

You will be fine. —Suzukaze-c 23:23, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
The fonts included in that TTC are Osaka, Osaka–等幅 and Osaka-UI.

Пенсильва́нія (Pensylʹvánija) (the American state) Pennsylvania[edit]

Could we please add the Ukrainian word "Пенсильванія?"

Is it also possible to add the Belarusian word "Пенсільванія" for Pennsylvania, in English Wiktionary?

It's a wiki! If you know those languages, you can add it yourself. If not, you can add to WT:RE:be and WT:RE:uk respectively. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:22, 12 July 2018 (UTC)