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November 2025

On IPA transcription of rhotic vowels in GA vs RP

I noticed that on the page for vicarious, both the Received Pronunciation & the General American pronunciations use /ɛəɹ/. if I am not mistaken, this is only true in RP, as in GA it is pronounced /ɝ/. if that is true, then why isn't the GA and RP pronunciations split in words that use /ɛəɹ/? Also, in GA, should /ɛr/ or /ɝ/ be used?

Thank you for your time. Quavix621 (talk) 03:09, 2 November 2025 (UTC)

This general issue has been discussed before (Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2024/July#Transcriptions of the nurse vowel, Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2024/February#Changes from /ə(ɹ)/ or /əɹ/ to /ɚ/, etc) and we have so far eluded coming to a clear decision on whether to prefer V+diacritic or V+ɹ. Each option (/ɜɹ/ vs /ɝ/) has arguments for it, including that we almost never notate /ɑ˞/ or /ɔ˞/ (it's always V+ɹ) so /ɜɹ/ and /əɹ/ would be consistent with that, and would also require positing fewer phonemes / using fewer symbols. - -sche (discuss) 03:24, 2 November 2025 (UTC)

appoint and disappoint

My German friend asked me (very indirectly) why isn't "disappoint" the opposite of "appoint"? I could only say "IT MEANS POINT LIKE IN PUNKT AND PUNCTUATION", and make a guess that "appoint" is putting somebody in a POINT which is a place or role! So I obviously went to désappointer and thence appointer: there is no French sense that convinces me "this is the opposite of disappointment". Somebody convince me. How is "appoint" really like "disappoint"? 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:780C:E197:3C9:DD44 22:51, 3 November 2025 (UTC)

Apparently in Middle English it meant to dispossess someone from an office, which is sort of the opposite of appoint. I'm not sure how that ended up with the current meaning. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:26, 4 November 2025 (UTC)

Wo (falconer's call)

Hi, not sure how else to mark that this meaning doesn't appear to come up anywhere. For wo (English meaning), it states "A falconer's call to a hawk." I can't seem to find this anywhere online. Page at wo#English. Thanks! 2A02:C7E:5F26:A100:9137:C35C:8842:C86F 22:25, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

The proper procedure would be to add {{rfv-sense}} to the line in question, and post it to Requests for verification/English. This was added 19 years ago when our Criteria for inclusion were different. It looks like it came from the Oxford English Dictionary. Here is the entry in an out-of-copyright edition]. You'll note that it's part of longer utterances like "wo ho"- these can be found here and there in older books and in poetry (Sa ho-sa ho-wo ha, Sa ho-sa ho-wo ha (quoted cries not in Shakespeare), wo ho ho Wo ho ho. I could be wrong, but I don't think that would be enough for the single word. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:42, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

Perms for my new account

Hi, I started a new account, going by Dijacz. Can I get the same perms on there as I have on this account? For all intents and purposes, it's just a username change. Same person, same domain of specialization. And I'm getting tired of having to do captchas every other edit because I'm adding a dictionary reference to an entry or something. Also page moving perms as well. Thanks. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 05:07, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

Are compass directions comparable?

Adverbs north / south / west / east are all currently set to (not comparable).
But shouldn't they use {{en-adv|+further}}?
As in "Latvia lies north of Lithuania, but Estonia lies further north than Latvia." -Vuccala (talk) 12:42, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

Yes. "Furthest north" is used as well. Theknightwho (talk) 22:57, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

@Theknightwho okay thanks, and for adding it as well. I asked because, seeing as no one added it in 15 years – felt more likely to be my error than everyone else's oversight. Vuccala (talk) 17:56, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, there is a comic strip called "Sherman's Lagoon" (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22sheman%27s+lagoon%22) that played on this years ago, using the comparative for humorous effect -- talking about geese migrating "souther" (relative to the speaking character's current position). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:13, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

@Vuccala I added it to the corner directions too, but it feels weirder to say things like "furthest north-west", so it says "usually not comparable" for those ones. Theknightwho (talk) 18:14, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

User:Eirikr oh yeah, I remember reading that one in the Sunday newspaper color comics! User:Theknightwho affirmative!  Done Vuccala (talk) 20:31, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

I would say it's comparable, but differently in different senses: further north really means "at a greater distance from the equator in a northerly direction", while other wording would be used to say that the direction from some point is closer to true north- it's the difference between distance and direction. For instance, someone who traveled twice as far from a certain point toward the northwest is further north than someone who went due north, even if the second person's direction of travel is 45° more north than the first person's. The directional sense doesn't seem as natural as the distance sense, so I doubt it's used much. I would use "more northerly" or "more to the north" instead, for the most part. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:33, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

"Lua error: too many expensive function calls" on some words

It's my first time seeing this error and I cannot seem to find a fix for this, for example in 日 - Wiktionary, the free dictionary KlahrinzWBC (talk) 19:04, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

I noticed that today on that same character. I looked through the Grease Pit for mentions of the error message, and found CAT:E, where it and several other common Han characters are listed. A link there then led me to WT:Lua_memory_errors. From all of this I concluded it's a known and permanent problem. Hiztegilari (talk) 13:58, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

As WT:Lua memory errors says, that page is somewhat historical, because the main problem it was/is documenting was resolved — entries exceeding the Lua memory limit. "Too many expensive function calls" is a different problem; one possible cause of and solution to at least some cases is discussed at Wiktionary:Grease pit/2025/October#lots of links to nonexistent files in 王. - -sche (discuss) 21:23, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

Not strictly true. See WT:Grease pit/2025/October#lots of links to nonexistent files in 王. @Wpi changed the code to check if every image in a module actually exists, instead of the shortcut way used before. Each of those checks involves an expensive parser function call, and these entries were already close to the limit on those. @Benwing2 suggested a possible fix, but Wpi never responded- presumably because they didn't have the time or expertise to figure out an implementation. Pinging @Theknightwho to see if they have any ideas.

By the way, the Lua memory problem itself was solved for us by an increase in the memory limit, but there are other ways that these huge single-character entries push the limits, so a is pretty much permanently in CAT:E (mostly due to using too much script-execution time), and there have been others briefly ending up there (again, due to execution time). Pages in the Appendix namespace have gone over the expensive-parser-function limit from time to time, but those can be fixed by splitting them into smaller pages. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:48, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

Actually, I've tried changing the module to using the batch lookup function, but it turns out that each page still counts as one expensive parse function call because they are an NS_MEDIA which calls .file.exists for each page instead of .exists. – wpi (talk) 02:43, 12 November 2025 (UTC)

Would it be possible, at least for the small number of specific characters which are having Lua problems, to create a "lite" version of {{Han etyl}} (or at least of the first part of it, that shows images of the historical forms of the character), where editors could manually specify what images to show, and the template wouldn't need to use Lua at all, thus avoiding running into Lua problems? - -sche (discuss) 23:21, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

From my memory, in the entries exceeding the limit, the majority of the images are actually nonexistent. It should be feasible to manually check which images are required and and only list the real ones in Module:zh/data/glyph-data/王 etc. – wpi (talk) 05:29, 14 November 2025 (UTC)

Malay & Indonesian: Help needed regarding the automated recognition of affixed terms

Hi @GinormousBuildings, @Sponge2490, @Rentangan, @TNMPChannel, @Xbypass.

Can you help Mickaël with his question?

How to apply affixes to plural? I would guess it should be applied to the very first term:

"buku-buku" -> "PREFIXbukuSUFFIX-buku"

"terung-terung ungu" -> "PREFIXterungSUFFIX-terung ungu" Renek78 (talk) 05:34, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

Affixes on reduplicated words like is just treat the base as a single word like "menakut-nakutkan", but if it is SOP like "terung ungu" it is as stated TNMPChannel (talk) 05:49, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

Hi! Can someone help me?

I'm trying to make a number menu as seen in for example English entry eight or German entry acht, but for numbers in Ket (since we don't have that yet.) Can someone help me? Chrysanthemum1319 (talk) 13:41, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

You have to create Module:number list/data/ket. Here is an example of a simple module in which every number is specified separately. With further Lua knowledge, you can e.g. automatically create twenty-one from twenty + one. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 14:12, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, but how can I specify whether or not a term is animate-class or inanimate-class in the code? Plus, can I show counting forms of numbers? Chrysanthemum1319 (talk) 14:13, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

It's going to need a more complex design, not really sure off the top of my head. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 15:23, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

I've made it like this: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Module:number_list/data/ket, but it doesn't show multiplicative and counting forms. How can we fix this? Chrysanthemum1319 (talk) 16:15, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

One probably has to use additional_number_types, something like this right under local numbers = export.numbers:

export.additional_number_types = {
	{key = "counting_form", after = "cardinal"},
	{key = "multiplicative", after = "distributive"},
}

— SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 17:43, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

What am I doing wrong?

Why does the below not produce a proper quotation?

1. • Template:quote—book

JulieKahan (talk) 14:06, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

You're using the wrong dash. {{quote-book}}. Vininn126 (talk) 14:08, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! JulieKahan (talk) 15:26, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

How can I rename a page?

A month or so ago, I've created this page кавет, but now I realize I've made a mistake, it should be кагавет instead. кавет itself is not a word/verb, so I cannot rewrite the page. Can I rename this page? Chrysanthemum1319 (talk) 16:36, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

@Chrysanthemum1319: you rename pages by moving them. This preserves the revision history, which is necessary for the attribution required in our Creative Commons license. Only admins can move without leaving a redirect at the old name, but if you don't want a redirect you can tag the redirect for deletion using {{d}}, since deleting such redirects is non-controversial. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:50, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

Done! Thank you. Chrysanthemum1319 (talk) 18:13, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

Request for discussion on the GenAm pronounciation of "-ing" rimes

I have a Midland accent and live in an area with many Southern and GenAm speakers. From all evidence I have in this area, none of them pronounce the vowel in "thing" or "sing" as /ɪ/, as Wiktionary reads, but rather /i/. This difference is demonstrated by the minimal pairs "sin" /sɪn/ & "scene" /sin/, and "scene" (not "sin") & "sing" /siŋ/. Soweli Rin (talk) 22:32, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

@Soweli Rin: it gets tricky when the final nasal becomes at least partly syllabic. In such circumstances I would expect the vowel before it to become reduced- which I would think means it would become more lax, like [ɪ] or [ɘ]. I'm not sure whether the difference is enough to shift it from phonemic /i/ to /ɪ/, though. At any rate, I don't perceive "sin" and "sing" to have the same vowel at all. I'm from the Los Angeles area, though my mom was from Iowa. Pinging @Mahagaja for a reality check. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:19, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

Since the contrast between /i/ and /ɪ/ is neutralized before /ŋ/, speakers are free to move around a lot in that vowel space. In my own speech, I'd say the vowel of sing is about halfway between the vowel of sin and the vowel of scene. w:California English § Urban coastal California English reports a tense /i/ before /ŋ/ in that accent at least, and I'm sure it's found in other accents as well. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:08, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

critiques of edits

please review the critiques of my recent contributions to the Latin wiktionary by the new reviewer, S. Have made many edits in the past without these types of responses. Am open to constructive criticism of course but the personal flavoring of this reviewer: You can be read for yourself... My intent on contributing to the Latin wiktionary is to expand upon the limitations of the current book sources so as to fit with modern translations of Latin prior to 1600. Admittedly my mother tongue is not Latin but whose is? With this type of response, you will start to lose contributors: Threatened with banning for trying to be forthright in referencing the actual sources in the editing process. Stating the obvious gaps in the printed sources that has led to my editing attempts, admittedly beginner grade. But all to what I perceive as the overarching goal of Wikimedia, to capture knowledge in its most complete form without self-aggrandizement. Trolling does not seem to be an appropriate response to well-meaning attempts. Perhaps S. has too much on his plate which can be read between the lines. Please let me know if this is now the acceptable means of critique so that I can stop contributing and relieve S. of any further expense of his/her valuable time. wl Wilhelmlux (talk) 03:16, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

I think you misinterpreted his tone when reading. Some people here are direct, but not maliciously. He did not make threats, but informed that you are likely susceptible to being banned (temporarily) for not complying with Wiktionary's formatting guidelines (that is, by someone else who notices similar patterns and also notices that you have been informed previously). When he said 'your mother tongue', he's referring to your English, not Latin. Specifically, he pointed out that you placed henceforth (an adverb) in a definition line under a term that is an adjective. So, he recommends that you contribute on a Wiktionary of your native language.

Additionally, he's not saying that you cannot add sources, but they should be ones that have a template (or properly formatted per WT:References#Layout). Personally, I recommend not using Globse as it contains wikidata for definitions/translations (and so it is a tertiary source, instead of a secondary source).

I admit that criticism can be difficult to process neutrally at first glance, but it's important to know that generally people here want to help others; they are not trying to attack you. WT:Assume good faith has really good information about this topic. TranqyPoo (talk) 00:30, 25 November 2025 (UTC)

Correction - These are more appropriate guidelines: WT:Entry_layout#Further_reading & Help:Interacting_with_other_users TranqyPoo (talk) 01:34, 25 November 2025 (UTC)

The editor offering criticism of your edits acknowledged your good intentions while pointing out the less felicitous aspects of these edits. They tried to be helpful by suggesting specific and concrete ways of improvement. The somewhat sharp tone can be ascribed to frustration by the additional cleaning-up work left in the wake of your edits.  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:03, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

Day Zero article missing

About droughts ~2025-36737-82 (talk) 04:30, 27 November 2025 (UTC)

This has been used as a proper noun in connection with the Cape Town water crisis of the previous decade, as seen used here. Does it have a sense that applies to drought measures in general? Otherwise, it should not be considered a lexical term.  ​‑‑Lambiam 18:52, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

On etymologies and sourcing them

I'm currently interested in expanding English Wiktionary's coverage of Estonian terms (my native language), which currently consists of adding any words I can think of that don't have an article already. So far, this has been relatively smooth-sailing (with a lot of cross-referencing), but etymologies are something that I still don't quite know how to find. As a random example, the etymology for põrand claims that it derives from Reconstruction:Proto-Finnic/përmanto. Looking at the references in that article, it does indeed claim that põrand is a descendant of this reconstructed term, but why isn't this referenced in the article for the actual word? Furthermore, some articles include information in their etymologies that I cannot find in Sõnaveeb nor Eesti Etümoloogia Sõnaraamat (in the case of põrand, Sõnaveeb has no etymology, and EES only contains cognates and a vague source with no actual etymon). I can only assume that such information comes from a less-accessible source (i.e. an actual book). In that case, it would at least be nice to know what that source is. I am not a linguist, so I'd just like to know if it's even worth it to try to look for etymologies if they're not extremely obvious (compounds, derivations, loanwords, etc), or if I should just slap an {{rfe|et}} on it and hope someone more qualified can figure it out. Zomg15 (talk) 18:25, 28 November 2025 (UTC)

December 2025

Apple Gifting Day

Never heard of it. Is this a US thing? Perhaps mention which countries have it. ~2025-38083-82 (talk) 09:05, 4 December 2025 (UTC)

Rouchefoucauldian

Why would this be spelled Rouche- when the name it derives from is spelled Roche- ? ~2025-38881-30 (talk) 15:25, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

Variant spelling, like how Shakespeare was spelled many ways. ~2025-38624-76 (talk) 15:27, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

Gracious Professionalism

Does Gracious Professionalism (a registered trademark, official definition here) meet WT:CFI? The Wiktionary doesn't have any guidelines on the inclusion of terms that are trademarked other than brand names (WT:BRAND) or company names (WT:COMPANY). A quick Google search identifies that this term is used by sources that are unaffiliated with the FIRST community ([1],[2],[3]), where it originated, but I'm unsure whether or not it should be added because of the term's trademark status and the aforementioned lack of clarification on the addition of such words. 𝕷𝖚𝖓𝖆𝖗𝖑𝖚𝖕𝖎𝖞𝖊☾𝕿☽⚸ 18:05, 7 December 2025 (UTC)