Wiktionary:Information desk/2024/March

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Color categories[edit]

Checking before I potentially change a bunch of entries: where a more specific color subcategory exists, we should move entries from Category:Colors into the specific subcategory, yes? E.g. abyssal blue is currently in both CAT:en:Blues and CAT:en:Colors, but shouldn't it just be in CAT:en:Blues? And phthalo green is currently only in CAT:en:Colors, but shouldn't it be moved to CAT:en:Greens? Likewise in other languages, e.g. jadegrün, hellweiß. Separate-ish question: should nonblue, unblue etc start to be put into CAT:en:Colors? - -sche (discuss) 19:14, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Entries should not be in both parent and child categories virtually ever and in this case, definitely no. If you want to see a listing of all colors, see Appendix:Colors; they don't need to all be in the parent category. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:44, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suffix policies[edit]

When I saw that "-poiesis" was RFD'd I got pretty upset since I was looking for that article and it was quite useful to me. I was thinking of joining the debate but I see that they were appealing to the suffix inclusion criteria policies which I don't know. How can I go about finding that, is there a page that summarizes policy and precedent? I found Wiktionary:Policies and guidelines which looks like it's a historical page, but couldn't pick up a trail from there. Cxsmith6174 (talk) 22:12, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know of a specific policy for suffixes. Here are the general Criteria for inclusion. The argument for deletion at Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/English#-poiesis seems to be that this suffix is not really distinct from the independent word poiesis. This seems arguable, but it can be difficult in some cases to draw a clear line between compounds and affixed words.--Urszag (talk) 22:32, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The argument is that this not a suffix. English has the words misdefinition, nondefinition, predefinition, redefinition, subdefinition and undefinition. This does not mean that -definition is a suffix. There are also many words that end on -plasma, such as bioplasma, endoplasma, haemoplasma (or hemoplasma), idioplasma, lymphoplasma, magnetoplasma, microplasma, mycoplasma, nanoplasma, ovoplasma and phytoplasma. This does not make -plasma a suffix. For a morpheme to be considered a linguistic suffix, or more generally an affix, it has to be a bound morpheme.  --Lambiam 10:54, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can say that, but nevertheless we have entries for -ology, -man, -ful and -less despite the existence of ology, man, full and less as free morphemes.--Urszag (talk) 20:30, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ology was derived from the suffix (an unusual case); -ful is not spelled the same as full; and -man is usually a schwa vowel (though we have used it in cases of compounds where, IMO, we should not). Equinox ◑ 22:34, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think most linguists would not consider spelling dispositive evidence regarding morphology; otherwise, we might be forced to consider cancell- in cancellation and cancelling to be a bound morpheme since it's spelled differently from the base verb cancel. And the diachronic origin of the word ology doesn't change the fact that it now exists as a free morpheme, does it? I suspect, as Einstein2 suggested at the RFV, that the use in English of poesis as a noun was itself at least partly influenced by the earlier use of compound words ending in -poesis.--Urszag (talk) 00:09, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Urszag Having a distinct meaning seems like a good criterion for calling something an affix. For example, rage- is semantically restricted in a specific way in which rage is not. Theknightwho (talk) 00:27, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary:Contact us[edit]

This page suggests one can "contact trusted Wiktionary volunteers at info-en@wiktionary.org." Is this a real email address? Who reads it? Ioaxxere (talk) 08:33, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote it soliciting responses. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:26, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It goes to a VRT queue. Emufarmers (talk) 11:59, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding a language to Wiktionary[edit]

I would like to add Eastern Geshiza (code: sit-ges), a Sino-Tibetan language, to Wiktionary, but I don't know how to do so. Would anyone help me to add this language, or inform me how to add it? Thanks in advance! Geshiza (talk) 14:10, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome. Have you seen Help:Adding and removing languages? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:33, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have read this page, but I'm not clear about how to add an entry to Module:languages. Geshiza (talk) 05:50, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You shouldn't do that because you need community consensus. Vininn126 (talk) 07:43, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"This user cannot read or write any languages. Assistance is required."[edit]

I hope this is the correct place to ask this question. I have an infobox on my userpage and a template saying I know the Latin alphabet. However, the infobox also says "This user cannot read or write any languages. Assistance is required.". Is there any way to fix this? Swam pl (talk) 22:43, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Vininn126 (talk) 22:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! --Swam pl (talk) 22:50, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"That..." definitions[edit]

What's the deal with all those adjective definitions that start with "That..."? "That which" would have been crystal clear, but why is it just "that"? I checked that and I'm not sure which sense is being used here. Examples:

moving
That moves or move.
segetal
That grows in cornfields.
rent
That has been torn or rent.
partitive
That divides something into parts.

Vuccala (talk) 03:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It means a phrase like "a moving hand" can be glossed as "a hand that moves". In contrast, we can't say *"a hand that which moves". "That which" would suit a noun definition.--Urszag (talk) 04:04, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Our convention that a full definition should start with a capital letter suggests it is a phrase that can stand on its own. It makes this type of definition even more confusing to the unaware user. It would be better to avoid the confusion by rephrasing such definitions. For example, one can define this sense of the adjective moving as “able to move” (compare the definition of sliding). Also, the sense “in the process of making a motion” – which is how I interpret “a hand that moves” – is just the participle. (BTW, moving pictures is IMO not a suitable usex; the term is idiomatic and not SoP.)  --Lambiam 17:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would probably be better if we didn't capitalise English definitions and wrote them as true glosses, but I suspect that ship has sailed... Theknightwho (talk) 20:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re "one can define this sense of the adjective moving as “able to move”": can it, really? A moving vehicle is not merely one which is "able to move" (which someone could go turn on and move), it is one which is in motion. ("Able to move" is moveable or in some contexts maybe motile.) If "moving" can also mean "moveable", a la "sliding doors" being "sliding doors" even when they're not being slid, that seems like a distinct sense. I agree with Urszag that "that which" sounds like a noun definition. Re uncapitalizing all definitions, even in English: it would take a lot of getting used to, but it could solve the issue of people arguing their favourite non-English language (e.g. Hebrew) is special enough to also be formatted like English, and how to format various templates, etc... - -sche (discuss) 21:05, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are, of course, numerous instances where moving vehicle is not about capability but refers exclusively to a vehicle in actual motion:
  • A PC 830 peace officer shall not stop a pedestrian for a violation of this section unless a reasonably careful person would realize there is an immediate danger of a collision with a moving vehicle or other device moving exclusively by human power.[1]
  • While crossing the road when going to or from a school bus, a pedestrian is struck by a moving vehicle, usually a vehicle other than the school bus.[2]
  • For example, when a moving vehicle leaves the roadway it is not predetermined that a rollover will or will not occur.[3]
My point is that in these cases the term moving is not an adjective but a verb form, a present participle, just like approaching in “approaching army” and burning in “burning building” – notwithstanding our present classification of approaching as an adjective, which IMO is incorrect.  --Lambiam 20:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For comparison, here's the OED definition of moving: "That moves or passes from one place, position, or posture to another; capable of moving, able to be moved; not fixed or stationary, in motion." Ioaxxere (talk) 21:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reconstructed proper names, do you capitalize?[edit]

Do you capitalize proper names on reconstructed languages? 2001:4454:510:F500:4DD6:21C:2154:A96C 03:33, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, e.g. Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/Xъrsъ, Reconstruction:Gaulish/Dubnorix, Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/Gaizarīks. --21:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Record audio for entries as a non-native speaker?[edit]

There are numerous readily available voice samples on the online lexicon for Macanese. However, some of these are poorly recorded (e.g. cuts off even before the word is finished), and regardless I don't own any of the audio so I can't just upload it here. In addition, there are only about 50 native speakers left, and most of those are probably very hard to reach since they're mostly elderly people.

Having listened to several full plays and videos in Macanese, I feel like I can reliably pronounce Macanese words representative of the actual Macanese pronunciation. Question is, am I allowed to do that? Can I, as a non-native speaker (or really learner) of Macanese, record and upload audio pronouncing words for Wiktionary? We all know that native speakers self-recording and uploading to Wikimedia and Wiktionary isn't really a problem - see Afrikaans, Belarusian and German - but can I, a non-native speaker, do that as well? Or is it just a matter of before a native speaker catches me doing it? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 22:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I expect the latter, unless you can fool native speakers. Almost without exception, American actors playing a British character sound off to British audiences, even after extensive training with voice coaches. You may not hear differences native speakers hear. Have you listened at recordings of your own voice? In some languages in which I'm fluent I do not hear an accent while I’m speaking, but can hear it when listening to a recording.  --Lambiam 22:50, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't do it. PUC – 09:48, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't. A while I had {{rfap}} specifically request that only record if you are a native. We are here to record how natives thought about and used their language. Vininn126 (talk) 09:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably cant say this here but[edit]

I've been blocked as a sockpuppet on the english wiki and it's really not fair. Ive been branded a sockpuppet for some hackaton-type network or whatever. I'm not. Also very sad thing is, I've been looking at these block-logs and stuff. I've found that, not only I was blocked, but lots of other innocent people were as well. If you read their answers, its, to me, pretty obvious they don't even know what happened. It's been a couple a' weeks now, and no answers. I'm from uruguay, mother tongue spanish. I have an account on the spanish wikipedia. And they think im a part of a german net with arab interests. All because of a supposed result on the Checkuser tool. Check your tools, guys. Anyways. It makes me think of how many users over the years have maybe fallen victim of these types of admin made mistakes. - Joaquin89uy (talk) 10:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

English Wiktionary cannot do anything about whats happening over at English Wikipedia. 115.188.147.27 11:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikt link[edit]

I wrote an article at WP, which has numerous links to Wikt. Such as: wikt:in lieu of|in lieu of ... wikt:back and forth|back and forth. [I purposely omitted the opening and closing double brackets.] I wanted to shorten them by using the pipe trick. Hence, changed them to: wikt:in lieu of| ... wikt:back and forth|. It worked, but then I noticed that it does not work on mobile devices, just desktops. So, I switched it back to the original, more wordy way. Is my thinking correct? JimPercy (talk) 14:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template for collation weights[edit]

Is there a template that will return the collation 'weights' for a string, or, failing that, a letter. My immediate aim is to amend {{lt-categoryTOC}} so that clicking on 'Y' in the index in cat:Lithuanian lemmas will take me to the first lemma starting with 'y', of which there are currently 11 or 16. Clicking on 'Y' currently takes me to a pair of lemmas starting with 'y', whose sort keys I presume have been miscalculated (or else are simply out of date). If the template were 'coll', in the template I would replace "from=Y" by "from={{coll|Y}}". At present, the replacement "from=I" achieves the desired effect, but this relies on the current somewhat arbitrary contents of m.lt.sort_key.to in Module:languages/data/2. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:25, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The weird pair seems to be due to a bug in {{lt-adv}}, which uses ""[[Category:Lithuanian lemmas]]" etc. to add adverbs to the appropriate categories. This fails to get the lemmas sorted in 'Lithuanian order'. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now fixed. --RichardW57m (talk) 13:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It looks as though there was once a template with this function by the name of "key", so I propose to use this name if I have to create the name myself. --RichardW57m (talk) 08:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Finally found it. The template is undocumented template {{sortkey}}, which is used in Template:vi-categoryTOC for exactly the purpose I have in mind. --RichardW57m (talk) 08:32, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate that this particular functionality would not be achievable if Lithuanian were sorted correctly, for the distinction between 'i' and 'y' is 'secondary' and has no more weight than accents in English and French. (I know @Theknightwho has given some thought to implementing correct sorting, but it's not a trivial project.) --RichardW57m (talk) 12:25, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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