Wiktionary:Information desk/Archive 2010/January-June

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January 2010


Is there a grammar equivalent to wiktionary? Tooironic 07:15, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Uh, what? Could you be specific? --Yair rand 07:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps a site that sets out grammar rules and usage, along the lines of Fowler. It would have to be more prescriptive than we are! Equinox 07:30, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
We could possibly have some appendices - if anyone has the time. SemperBlotto 11:34, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
There are a few appendices that cover specific aspects of grammar here, and wikipedia has some articles as well, but neither is anywhere close to being useful. We have, for instance, Appendix:Spanish pronouns and Appendix:Latin cardinal numerals, so as long as you want to use those parts of speech in those languages, you can find help. Wikipedia has many more broad articles, but some of them are missing critically obvious information, like the w:Spanish grammar article, which did not even mention nouns at all until I added a brief section this Christmas [1]. --EncycloPetey 21:52, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
WikiGrammar seems like a hard project, too. I'm not sure that anyone would be happy with starting from a grammar of the vintage that is out of copyright. Even Curme is copyright 1931, renewed 1958. The presentation of English grammar seems radically different between pre-Chomsky and pre-computer days and now. The modern grammars (ComprehensiveGEL (1985), CambridgeGEL (2002), and Biber (1999)) seem quite different from their predecessors. Whatever the weaknesses of Websters 1913, it certainly provided en.wikt with a good starting point. I don't think the older grammar provide a starting point of comparable value. DCDuring TALK * Holiday Greetings! 23:06, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Then we would have to include the grammars of all regions that use the English language. Perhaps we could just include the old Fowler with our own notes on how things have changed since then? Dbfirs 16:15, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
There is also the questions of what exactly we should mean by grammar. Most users, I suspect, mean usage advice (prescription, Fowler, Garner). Most linguists mean descriptive grammar. The most enthusiastic contributors on usage are often the most prescriptive. I appreciate the advice contained in empirically based usage guides such as MWDEU (1989) and Garner's (2009).
But both old prescriptive and old descriptive grammar seems less useful than old dictionary definitions and old etymologies. DCDuring TALK 16:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Right now grammar articles on Wikipedia and Wikibooks are the closest things we have to a "Wikigrammar." I believe a "Wikivocab" would be really nice too (closest thing to that would be Appendix:Swadesh lists). — Stevey7788 06:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
As WP articles often miss our target users' and contributors' needs and interests, we have some appendices and pages in Wiktionary space (eg, Wiktionary:English adjectives) that cover some aspects of grammar. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to pull them together into a lists, probably categories, by language. DCDuring TALK 11:48, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
We already have Category:English grammar appendices, but I doubt that the listing is inclusive, even of all such appendices, let alone pages in other namespaces. DCDuring TALK 11:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)


Could someone please explain what the difference is between a "diminutive", a "pet form", and a "nickname"? We seem to use all of these terms regularly in given name entries... --Yair rand 21:33, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

The way I see it, diminutives are when a suffix is added to a word to denote a smaller form of that word (i.e. spaghetti > spaghettini or faja > fajita); nicknames are familiar names for a person or object that may or may not have anything to do with the real name; and pet forms are familiar names for a person that are derived from their real name. L☺g☺maniac 22:09, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Looking for word that sounds like perdu, can't spell it

I'm looking for a word that sounded like perdu to me. Comes from the French. Means the sentry stationed furthest from friendly lines who is almost certain to be killed in an attack but can get off a warning to the ones closer; means something like 'lost man'. RJFJR 00:12, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

perdu is the French for lost (masculine singular). Perhaps we are missing an English sense. Equinox 00:21, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
See perdu in Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam, 1913. DCDuring TALK * Holiday Greetings! 00:26, 4 January 2010 (UTC)"
Hello, following your definition, you are thinking of the french expression "enfant perdu". For '"enfant trouvé" (a foundling kept by soldiers as a servant & tyro, a former version of child-soldier) , see Clavell's movie The last valley ... T.y. Arapaima 10:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


what is cpu /—This comment was unsigned.

CPU is short for "central processing unit".​—msh210 19:28, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

English to Icelandic Dictionary

Hi everyone, I wanted to begin an english-icelandic dictionary, but didn't know how to go about doing this, as I noticed all of the language dictionaries here seem to be one-way. Can such a double dictionary be included on Wiktionary? Thanks for any help; I've never yet contributed anything here. —This comment was unsigned.

Many of our English entries contain Translations sections with translations into many other languages. Some entries are still missing translations sections, or missing translations into specific languages, and you are welcome to contribute. Read this first, though. —Internoob (Disc.Cont.) 00:55, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Each Icelandic-to-English word will go on a separate page like armbandsúr. The English-to-Icelandic then goes into the translation sections of English words, like wristwatch. —Stephen 15:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Anagrams below definition

I found an anagrams section in one of your entries. Is this consistent with Wiktionary policy? 15:17, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, see Wiktionary:Entry layout explained#Anagrams and other trivia. Anagrams are added automatically by Conrad.Bot. --Yair rand 17:04, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I am surprised. Anagrams seem inappropriate for a dictionary. Thank you for your info. 20:02, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

HTML entity for =

Could someone tell me what the HTML entity for = (the equals sign) is please? Thanks in advance.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 01:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

= = Conrad.Irwin 01:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks very much. You don’t happen to have a list of these HTML entities lying about, do you?  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 03:23, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
61 is just the (decimal) ASCII value of the character. The same thing works for any ASCII value, or, in extension, Unicode value. As well as the numerical character value, you can use predefined special names for a few characters, such as &,   etc. See w:List of XML and HTML character entity references. —This unsigned comment was added by (talk).

Irregular adjectives

Appendix:English_irregular_adjectives gives a, to me, novel definition of "irregular adjective". I always thought these were adjectives with irregular comparative forms, such as "good", "better", "best". 04:33, 12 January 2010 (UTC).

"the" grammar question

My friend recently wrote: "Both sides have argued different points about death penalty." I told him that there must be a "the" before "death penalty" but I can't for the life of me explain why (even after consulting "the" in Wiktionary). Can someone explain to me its function in this sentence? Sometimes I really wish I was taught grammar in school... sigh. Tooironic 07:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Without "the", the noun would have to be abstract or plural (points about death, points about death penalties). A concrete singular noun needs "the" or "a", depending on the meaning intended. —Stephen 08:56, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
But here we are not actually talking about the death penalty in a certain country or a specific penalty - and yet "the" is still needed. That's what confuses me, and I find it hard to explain it in terms that a non-native speaker (or even a native speaker) would understand. Tooironic 10:14, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
This problem also came to fore in this sentence he wrote: "His amazing creativity makes him even more attractive to audience." As native speakers we know "the" must be placed here before "audience". But this "audience" is not a specific audience, nor has it been previously mentioned in the essay. So why "the"? Tooironic 10:22, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Because without "a" or "the", the following noun must be either abstract or (especially) plural. SemperBlotto 10:26, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Hmm, so it's that simple... Except, of course, proper nouns right? Because one can easily say, "His amazing creativity makes him even more attractive to John" or "His amazing creativity makes him even more attractive to Australia". Thanks!! Tooironic 11:35, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
"I went to bed", "Go into town", "Meet you at college", "Not at dinner!"? Are these abstract senses of common nouns, or what? Conrad.Irwin 13:26, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I think these English idioms are treating the nouns as abstract. After all, you aren’t going to the bed (well, you are, but that’s not what you’re saying)...it means you’re going to sleep. Going to town vs. going to the town...abstract vs. concrete. Not at dinner vs. not at the dinner. In some cases, American English is at odds with British English: he’s in hospital (British), or he’s in the hospital (American). —Stephen 14:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
A while ago, after similar discussion, I did add the "uncountable" sense at bed. Remove it if necessary. Equinox 20:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Am I allowed to customize my Wiktionary user talk page a little?

Hi all,

I am a Wikipedia editor of some experience. I am new to Wiktionary, and attempting to create a user and talk page. Specifically, I want to put a brief note and transwiki link on my user talk page to indicate that a quicker response to messages might be received if the communicator uses my/copies messages to my Wikipedia talk page. A more experienced Wiktionary editor, User:SemperBlotto has been repeatedly deleting my user page (while I have been in the process of formatting it), and now in leaving me a message s/he has at the same time reformatted it 'plain', indicating that I must stick to this format. I note that there is a note at the top of SemperBlotto's own user talk page, so I guess this is permitted under some circumstances.

I am aware that although I use a project login for both WKT and WKP, standards may differ between the two. Am I attempting to break some Wiktionary standard? Is there a strict Wiktionary rule on the appearance of user talk pages, and what may appear thereon? I am not trying to add promotional, offensive, or otherwise obviously unsuitable or irrelevant material to my talk page. I might include a greeting and some slight humor.

I asked SemperBlotto directly about this, but his/her reply has not directly addressed my question about whether I can do what I wish, nor has s/he stated any rule that I am definitely breaking, but he has simply deleted my in-process edits, stating on my talk page 'User talk pages are not normally preformatted in any way'. This behaviour seems a little high-handed to me. I have read Help:Talk_pages#User_talk_pages, and have searched the Information Desk archives to see if this issue has been dealt with. SemperBlotto provided me with a sheaf of useful links, but I haven't found anything directly relevant so far. Any advice and guidance would be much appreciated. Our brief exchange is here and here.
Centrepull 12:58, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

There is no rule against formatting your talk page, though I only know of one regular here that has formatted it (brief introductions are much more common). Looking at the deleted edits to your page, I don't understand the point behind them; again it's not an actual problem, just a bit of a waste of time. I think you should read {{welcomepedia}} and WT:USER#User pages (though really only the first bullet point is important, the rest is just clarification), this will give you the basic idea of how things work here. There are few actual "policies" (say for WT:CFI and WT:ELE), we don't need them as long as people keep using their common sense. Conrad.Irwin 13:07, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your input on what I know is rather a minor issue. SemperBlotto appears quite insistent, and must have been aware from edit conflicts that I was in the process of setting up the page. 'Formatting' may in fact be an exaggeration of what I want to do - I intend a brief introductory note and a link to my Wikipedia talk page for convenience as I mentioned above. I will try to avoid the farce of an edit war with SemperBlotto on my talk page.

The pointers for Wikipedians are very useful, by the way. Centrepull 14:46, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

While I haven't checked the history of what happened at in your userspace or your interaction with SB, and so have no idea whether he should have deleted your userpage, you should be aware of the following: He does a lot of recent-changes patrol, checking for bad edits and reverting/deleting them. There are few RC patrolmen and lots of bad edits. Sometimes that means he will revert/delete a good edit accidentally. While of course he should own up to such — and he does — it does mean that one should try to be understanding of his erring so in the first place.​—msh210 16:50, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
(Just passing through.) On that subject, while we all appreciate that mistakes are easily made, regulars here should note how incredibly annoying it is to have one's good-faith edits deleted without any comment or explanation. It's happened to me several times in the past, and it really discourages me from bothering to contribute. 23:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC).

Automatic extraction of translations from the wiktionary

Hi there,

I'm doing research in NLP and I'm looking forward to automatically extract translations from the wiktionary. I did that quite easily for French/English, using French dumps, but now I have to do the same for English/Chinese, starting from English dumps.

Sadly, it appears that, even though the {{t}} template is highly used, there still are many ambiguities. For example, the language code for Chinese/Mandarin is either zh or cmn (same for Cantonese). Moreover, I saw another model, {{zh-zh-p}} (submited for deletion, mostly for giving a hard time to data-miners -- I totally agree). How can I know/find other template of this kind ? How can I ensure to process them all ?

My goal is to have the biggest yet clean bilingual resources possible. For now, my script is a mess, with hardcoded crap in it due to exceptions I have to consider. The good point about wiktionary is that such a resource is redistributable for free, which allows researchers to actually share a common resource for their experiment, which is generally not the case.

Thank you very much ! Emmanuel 09:06, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi! I am also trying to extract translations (and definitions, and semantic relations) from English Wiktionary MySQL dump. See wikokit project. You can download and test wiwordik application which works with data extracted from Russian Wiktionary. -- Andrew Krizhanovsky 10:45, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Will take a look at it, thank you very much (- and finally manage to login)! Manproc 01:38, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Top ten languages with the most amount of nouns

Anyone know where I could find such a list? I need it for my 15,000 Mandarin Nouns Appeal I'm running on my user talk page. So far I've managed to come up with this tentative list:

  • English: 113,345
  • Italian: 36,625
  • Finnish: 29,870
  • German: 12,766
  • French: 12,687
  • Spanish: 12,686
  • Mandarin: 12,147
  • Japanese: 12,057
  • Czech: 10,350
  • Serbo-Croatian: 9,398

But as I'm not using any kind of fancy script I could be missing a couple of languages. Cheers. Tooironic 11:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Manifestly wrong. This only shows the number of such nouns in this dictionary, not the numbers that actually exist. SemperBlotto 11:37, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
What do you mean? Tooironic 19:18, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
SemperBlotto must have misunderstood you. Obviously, these are the counts of Wiktionary nouns.
I would be interested in the number of entries, not just nouns. Also, traditional / simplified difference causes many entries to add to the Chinese count (despite the efforts to create entries in two scripts, they are essentially one noun.), somewhat misleading for the purpose of showing how many Chinese nouns have been added. Are pinyin entries excluded? It applies to Serbo-Croatian as well, of course (if both Cyrillic and Latin entries exist) and Japanese (if variants of spellings are added). Anatoli 23:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Interesting that French beats Spanish by one. Mglovesfun (talk) 23:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Indeed, it would be understandable if this was done by one person/team and a Spanish word had 2 French meanings!
Thanks to Tooironic for the great Chinese contributions in the last months! Anatoli 00:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Google search

Moved here from WT:GP

Whatever happened to the external search engine drop down that we used to have (mentioned April 2008)? Is it possible to restore/fix it? Wikipedia has it as a Gadget. --Bequw¢τ 22:06, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Works for me. MediaWiki:SpecialSearch.js should get included on that page for everyone - what browser/skin are you using? Conrad.Irwin 22:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm on Windows Vista. Logged-out I get the external search options fine (glad to know they're still here). Logged in, however, I don't get them on Chrome, Firefox, or IE (all latest versions) and that's with Vector, Monobook, and Classic skins (even tried blanking my skin.css/js and turning off WT:PREFS). My error console (in FF and Chrome) does report:
Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'addEventListener' of null
when I visit Special:Search and I don't see the external search options. --Bequw¢τ 01:50, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Ah, the external searches doesn't come up when you're in "Advanced" mode (where you can select the individual namespace). I guess that makes sense. That's also what was causing the error I mentioned above. The js was looking for the "search" form when there was only the "powersearch" form (wonder if that's a bug). --Bequwτ 23:51, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
All though this isn't the tact that enwiki takes. If we'd like to always show the external engines (regardless of user's search "mode") see this edit would enable it. --Bequwτ 00:23, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Seems like a good idea to me. The bug in javascript has been fixed in the latest version of MediaWiki, so it should reach us when WikiMedia next updates. Conrad.Irwin 00:31, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Changed. --Bequwτ 02:46, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

February 2010

Data about failed searches

I was wondering, does Wiktionary keep data of failed searches? I think such information might be helpful to find out the kind of words people look up; we might even see some insightful patterns emerge. Tooironic 03:33, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

We have had this Feedback thing going for a long time now and have piles of data which I don't think anyone is looking at. You can see it here: toolserver. It has some missing words as well as feedback on current entries. - TheDaveRoss 03:43, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
I think I've mentioned before that I'd like to see all the feedback data collated for some minor statistical analysis. Specifically, the revision IDs are already in the table, so it would be nice to have a computer program look at each such and list how deep and how long its header structure is (how many languages, etymologies, POSes, etc.), how many images and other boxes ({{wikipedia}}, etc.) there are, how many usexes/quotes per sense, how many usexes/quotes per English sense, whether there's a separate Quotations section (and, if so, does it have quotes of {{seeCites}} or both), etc., etc., and the "grade" the user gave the entry. (I'm not able to write such a program.) A human can then analyze the data.​—msh210 16:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

"Alnor" Velometer

Does anyone know what an "Alnor" Velomoter is? I have one given to me by a friend. Date tested 19/7/1938. I am not sure what it is used for and what to do with it.

Can anyone help?

Regards Tim

Alnor is the company that makes it. A velometer is an instrument that measures air-movement velocity (e.g., in meat-storage facilities). Similar to an anemometer. —Stephen 12:04, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

It's an idiomatic, stupid!

Wikipedia has a small article about w:It's the economy, stupid that quickly documents a whole family of derived idiomatics ("It's the deficit, stupid!", "It's the corporation, stupid!", "It's the math, stupid!", "It's the voters, stupid!", etc.). I expected a link to Wiktionary with a lot more, but there's no page here.

I thought about creating one but I'm not even sure whether that should be at it's the ..., stupid or -, stupid or just at stupid? What should be the canonical article title, and is there another article in the same vein I could use as a model? 01:21, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

We could have it at it's the something, stupid and have some redirects from the more common specific forms or we could have it's the economy, stupid as a "proverb".
We do not have a good way to handle such expressions in general. They are sometimes called snowclones. They aren't really idioms. Whether it is worth having all the forms of them is not at all clear, especially for the those that have two or more slots (eg, "X is the new Y."). The are ways of making new coinages that never seem new: They are instant cliches. DCDuring TALK 01:40, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Thanks you: I have created it's the economy, stupid as the source and it's the something, stupid as the snowclone. I tried to make them good, but please vet them. 18:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
To deal with the identical page name rule of interwikis nicely, can we use "" for snowclones? In French Wiktionary, we use it for a limited number of words, such as à … près. Using something is language specific and doesn't work well interlingually. - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 06:18, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Citation needed

Is there an equivalent of w:Template:Citation needed on Wiktionary? --Anthonzi 03:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

To request verification of a word, use {{rfv}}. See Category:Verification templates for other verification request templates. --Yair rand 04:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
That's not really the same, but I suppose it serves the same purpose.--Anthonzi 06:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Wiktionary is not really the same as Wikipedia, of course, so it needs different procedures. In fact, all of Wiktionary should be original research! We don't rely on other dictionaries for meanings, so citations are examples of use, not evidence that someone else has reported a fact. Please don't use {{rfv}} as w:Template:Citation needed is sometimes (mis-?)used on Wiktionary to mean "I don't agree with this" or "I've never heard of this" when a little basic research will confirm the entry. (I'm sure you wouldn't.) You could also request citations on the Wiktionary feedback page. Ideally, like all big dictionaries, we would like to have citations covering the whole period of a word's usage, and illustrating all senses, but this will involve an enormous amount of work by volunteer editors. Dbfirs 12:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I agree that we need more citations, but the effort needed is indeed great. I had intended to do all the chemical elements, but hydrogen took so much time that I've shelved the idea for now. SemperBlotto 12:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Plus/minus, +/- on watch pages

On my watch list page, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Watchlist, there some signed numbers. -17 and +148 in the sample below. What are these numbers and what do they mean?

12 February 2010

(diff) (hist) . . m Talk:classical‎; 20:56 . . (-17) . . Mortense (Talk | contribs) (Removed dummy content.)

(diff) (hist) . . N Talk:classic‎; 20:49 . . (+148) . . Mortense (Talk | contribs) (Examples)

--Mortense 22:45, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

  • This shows the overall effect of the latest edit, subtracting 17 characters and adding 148 characters. SemperBlotto 22:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Thank you very much for the answer. --Mortense 23:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Possible content donation

I'm the administrator of a wiki whose purpose is to act as a lexicon mapping English words in their conventional spellings into the Shavian alphabet; there are around 15,000 entries. The licence is cc-by. The wiki was originally started because there appeared to be no free pronouncing lexicons which don't exhibit the cot-caught merger, and because British English pronunciations seemed to be missing from many words on Wiktionary.

It occurs to me that perhaps it might be useful to donate this content to Wiktionary somehow, especially if the Shavian spellings were programatically transformed into IPA. Would anyone be interested? Marnanel 14:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

No one has answered this? I think it would be fine to have as an appendix. bd2412 T 21:33, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Word of the Day

Are there Word of the Days for other languages apart from English? Tooironic 00:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

No. They are supposed to appear when the redesign of the Main Page is over (Word du jour). --Vahagn Petrosyan 01:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd love to make one for Mandarin. I have heaps of ideas for fun words. Could also get a lot of potential Chinese enthusiasts on board. I'd just need someone to program it for me. Tooironic 01:32, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Great! You can add new words at Wiktionary:Word du jour/Nominations. (Despite the name, WDJ is for all non-English languages, not just French.) Lack of interesting nominations for the foreign word of the day is basically the main reason the redesign hasn't been put up yet. --Yair rand 00:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Actually I'd rather create a discrete Mandarin one. I noticed at Word du jour that you require all words to have audio files and Mandarin doesn't enough of them to accomodate this criterion. Is anyone at all interested in helping me with the programming side of things? This could be a great addition to Wiktionary. Tooironic 08:52, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Actually, the issue of whether to include entries without audio in WDJ remains basically undecided, but it's probably going to turn out that we need to include entries without audio or else we won't have enough nominations. (Nominations without audio can be added at WT:WDJ#Nominations without audio.) But if you wanted to make a discrete Mandarin one instead anyways, you could probably just copy the code from Template:WOTD, modify it slightly so that it says something instead of "Word of the Day", and start adding pages using it in the Wiktionary: namespace using the same format as WOTD uses (Wiktionary:Whatever it's going to be called/February 21, etc.). --Yair rand 20:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Chinese Entry Index

Does Wiktionary actually have a Chinese Mandarin index of entries? The ones I found @ Index:Chinese seem to only list hanzi. Tooironic 04:57, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

What do I download for the upside-down "e"

I'm trying to get an upside-down "e" for Microsoft Works word Processor.

I tried coping and pasting, but 'Data Execution Prevention' keeps telling me otherwise, ands closes my document.

My two solutions are: 1. What I'm trying to do, (copy and paste a pronunciation) is illegal. 2. Microsoft didn't include that certain upside-down "e" I so desperately need now.

Thanks guys (and gals), you're the best

That must be a problem with Microsoft Works. I have never used it, but use Microsoft Word instead. I have no problem pasting ə when using Word (or Wordpad or Notepad). I think you should seek out a MSWorks forum for an answer. —Stephen 23:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Is there a command in Works like "Insert > Symbol" or "Edit > Insert Symbol"? That would save you having to paste. (I agree with Stephen, though: there is definitely no good reason why pasting a character should be a data execution problem.) Equinox 23:49, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I've just tried my Microsoft Works (Version 8.5) and I can't find an upside down e in the fonts and symbols available under "Insert", but I had no problem copying and pasting ə from the above example of the character. Which version of Works are you using? Dbfirs 12:11, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


What is the difference of {{etyl|nds}} and {{etyl:gmw-lge}}? They both seem to cover w:Low German (Low Saxon). – Leo Laursen – (talk · contribs) 15:10, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

{{nds}} is for "modern Low German". {{etyl:gmw-lge}} is for that and "Middle Low German" ({{gml}}), and "Old Low German"/"Old Saxon" ({{osx}}). --Bequwτ 20:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

proper noun translation

I would like to start a translation of proper nouns. For an example, see 亜米利加. Objections, suggestions or ideas? —This comment was unsigned.

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean. Do you want to add 亜米利加 to the translations listed at United States of America? —Internoob (Disc.Cont.) 19:57, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
He means this, but I reverted it. It wasn't formatted and it seemed completely meaningless to me... Pharamp 20:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments. Literature uses symbolism, and if we are not translating proper nouns, a lot of the symbolism is lost. For instance, America might be AddProfitRiceRankNext. Could I use Wikitionary as a forum for that?
Well, firstly, try to read some policies and study a bit of format. Look at the help pages on WT:CP or the WT:ELE. Then, you could contact more experienced (active) Japanese members at Category:User_ja, explaining exactly what you want to do. Seen that you are a registered member, you could create User:Mcintireallen and User:Mcintireallen/Japanese Sandbox, and try the templates there. And also, remember to sign all your comments with four ~!! :) Thanks. Pharamp 21:19, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Cheers.Mcintireallen 21:51, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I speak Chinese, not Japanese, but what you're talking about seems to be transliteration not translation in which case the literal meaning of each character is irrelevant as the eqiuvalent term is merely a sound representation of the original word. Again, I can't speak for Japanese, but in Chinese that is the case, and translating character-by-character is meaningless. Tooironic 22:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Right, it’s the same for Japanese as for Chinese. 亜米利加 is a phonetic reading (ateji) for あめりか (A-me-ri-ka). —Stephen 19:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)



what is it called when you make a rhyme to remember how to spell a word easily? i.e because - Big Elephants Can Always Understand Small Elephants

   beautiful - Big Elephants Are Useful To Indians For Unloading Logs
A mnemonic? —Stephen 22:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
... and an acrostic. Dbfirs 21:41, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

March 2010

Why is New Zealand Called NEW Zealand?

I was checking Out the globe when I saw That New Zealand was called NEW Zealand.Why the New?Wasn there a part befor it?There Must Be!

  • see also: New York, New England, New Mexico... --BillyNair 20:48, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Finnish nouns

I noticed Category:Finnish nouns went down from 37,153 to 30,695. What happened? ---> Tooironic 08:25, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Presumably someone went around and removed all the form-ofs. —Internoob (DiscCont) 19:38, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

adding dialogues as citations

Hi, how do you format dialogues for use as citations/example sentences? For example, if I wanted to add the following dialogue to the entry it's what I've always wanted, what's the best way to format?

<Bob> Happy birthday son, here's a pack of socks.
<kid who obviously doesn't want to get socks> Gee, thanks pa, it's what I've always wanted. [moves on to the next present rapidly]

--Rising Sun talk? contributions 11:25, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

A shared well dispute was in court and the Judge ruled in our favor. We were the Plaintiffs in this case.

Now there is another person on the shared well with a different issue taking us to court. Here is the problem.

The Judge in the first case is now a lawyer and he is the Plaintiff's attorney. Now we are the Defendants.

I think this is a conflict of interest and they should get another lawyer. Am I right?

Thank you.

No. A judge may become a lawyer in such a case, but not the other way around. —Stephen 00:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Recent changes by language

I was trying to find a way to display recent changes by language. For example, when I click Recent Changes, all language entries appear...is there a way to filter this? Thanks --达伟 09:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

This website allows you to filter by language. --balloonguy 12:41, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Hm, perhaps there should be a link to that on MediaWiki:Recentchangestext? --Yair rand 21:46, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
My anti-virus detected a trojan horse when I opened that link. ---> Tooironic 23:11, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
It is on autopilot :p. Perhaps it didn't like that one of the links in the header goes to a non-existant site. I have added links to WT:RC and added that page to the side-bar. Conrad.Irwin 00:02, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry about that, my FTP server was hacked and a little piece of the worm proved surprisingly hard to get rid of. Everything should be clean now, FWIW. -- Visviva 05:36, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
BTW, would it be possible to exclude changes that were only to the translations section for English entries? I would expect that the translations would be desirable additions to each language's recent changes, if they are not already. DCDuring TALK 11:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I may have erred (Finnish suffix forms)

Hello. I created a category that may be wrong. In Finnish, there are regular suffixes (like -nen, diminutive) and there are suffixes for declension (like -lta, ablative case). The articles for -lta and -sta were categorized as mere suffixes, so I thought that Category:Suffix forms by language would be the root place for them. Spying a sister category, I created Category:Finnish suffix forms and filed four cases in it. But then I Googled some more and found there is also Category:Finnish case suffixes that looks more like the real thing. So I also added the aforementioned four cases to it too.

So, apparently my Category:Finnish suffix forms may be incorrect or irrelevant and may have to be deleted (apologies). My changes are maybe better described at Special:Contributions/ Thank you if you can vet.

By the by: the Wiktionary:Community Portal page isn't clear where one should discuss categories (I suggest to amend it about that), so I'm posting here by default. Feel free to transfer this post to a more relevant board if needed. 12:53, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

If you create a page that you later wish to have deleted, empty the page and make sure that no other pages link to it, then add {{delete}} to it. Someone will delete it right away. —Stephen 11:33, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

assessing language level

Hi, I've been approached to teach someone English, and would like to know where to start with my student, who wants to be assessed according to some European standard "mark". The essay (modified to protect my client) given to me was entitled "mon autobiographie", which I post below:

My name is Joe Bloggs, I'm studying in Ethiopia, I live in Timbuktu city. I realize a doctoral in language's sciences, I'm in first year. My family live in Nauru, I have two brothers, theirs names are Bob and Bobby. My mother is housewife and my father is dead.

I like my country and Ethiopia. These countries are like my two motherlands. I have many friends of the world. I love simple life. I'm interest in differents things, for exemple: discover news natural sites (parcs, mountains, volcanos, lakes, etc.), speak with different people, riches and poors, young and old man. I like arrive to heart of people, it's said know people deeply. I like too some cultural activities, for exemple practice theater, listen music, go to the cinema, go to the discos, I like be informed of more important news of the world.

I want learning english because, I would discover other countries and communicate with more people in the world.

Greats your Ethiopian friend, XYZ

...so, where do i start with teaching? --Rising Sun talk? contributions 02:09, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

So, it's CEFR - and he looks like an A2 student. --Rising Sun talk? contributions 02:53, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


Could a Japanese editor please change this PoS to Proper noun for me? Cheers. ---> Tooironic 22:55, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

In Japanese, it just means a "universal language". I don’t think it could be considered a proper noun. —Stephen 08:21, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Oh sorry, I was thinking in Mandarin. Thanks. ---> Tooironic 22:41, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

An unborn grand child

What is the name of an unborn grand child, sex unknown, Grandy or Grandchild

It is grandchild or grandbaby. —Stephen 08:26, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


Should we add a sense, or a usage note, to document the common (mis)use of 'myself' to mean simply 'me'?--TyrS 04:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Can the wording "Balance of Probabilities be challanged in a court of law.

Could someone please advise if a person who has just been convited of an offence by the "Balance of Probabilities" challenge the findings and, contests the actual wording "Balance of Probabilities" to overturn his or her conviction.

Could you give some context, like the country in question? Mglovesfun (talk) 14:37, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Please see w:Wikipedia:Legal disclaimer. The same thing applies here. —RuakhTALK 14:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
"Balance of Probabilities" is a legal term that refers to the burden of proof in the different legal systems, such as criminal trials and civil trials. See w:Legal burden of proof#Standard of proof. There is nothing in the term per se to be challenged. —Stephen 00:54, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
... except that in most legal sytems, a "balance of probabilities" is insufficient for a criminal conviction (where "beyond reasonable doubt" is the norm). Are there any present-day countries that have a legal threshold as low as 51% for conviction of an offence? Yes, I know that, historically, conviction was on the whim of a judge or government in some countries, but those could hardly be called "legal systems" in the modern sense. Dbfirs 08:09, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
... oops! Foot in mouth?. Is it really true that 51% was the standard of proof required in US juvenile courts before 1970? Dbfirs 08:15, 29 March 2010 (UTC)


How might one define a "neocortical event"?

Something that happens in the w:neocortex. For example, planning is a neocortical event. —Stephen 20:03, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

April 2010

/* Raising */

Hello! What does "raising" mean in the following text:


   'Tis this slave;--
   Go whip him, 'fore the people's eyes:--his raising;
   Nothing but his report.

William Shakespeare "Coriolanus" Act IV, Scene 6. Igor Skoglund

Deletion of user page

Please let me know where I should file a request for my user page deletion to be undone. Vapmachado 00:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

For what purpose? When you do not participate in wiktionary, there is no reason to have a user page. Wiktionary is a dictionary, not a web page hosting site. --EncycloPetey 00:28, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
My sincerest apologies. I had no idea there was a requirement of a certain number of edits to be entitled to have a user page in this Wikimedia project. I never heard of such requirement in any other Wikimedia project. If you would be so kind as to direct me to the policy where such requirement was approved by the Wiktionary community, I'll be most obliged and I'll certainly evaluate my meager capabilities vis-a-vis the task of fulfilling it. If and when I meet that requirement where and/or to whom should I apply to have a user page? Do you have a review, censorship board or peer review system for user pages?
I'm a bit surprised by the content and tone of your answer. The administrator that deleted my user page wrote that the reason was "vanity page". I assumed that he personally didn't like the content of my user page. My participation in this project was not questioned. Would there be any other objections from other editors?
All my user pages, pretty much standard fare in all Wikimedia projects in the English language, where created to enable my participation in any project as the occasion arises and to allow others to know me, if the need for some contact occurred.
Warmest regards,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
Vapmachado 01:18, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Wiktionary does not rely on endless written policy, in the way that Wikipedia does. We do have a draft / guideline at Wiktionary:Usernames and user pages, but do delete user pages as "vanity pages" when the editor does not participate, for the reasons previously described. --EncycloPetey 01:23, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Thank you so very much for you kind attention. I reviewed very carefully your guideline at Wiktionary:Usernames and user pages and I am convinced that my user page met squarely all the stated criteria. If you have access to my deleted user page, please be so kind as to enlightening me as to where I have failed. If not, you may access my user page in any other Wikimedia project. They are all similar in content and appearance. You do refer again to "participation". Could you be more specific? Where is participation in Wiktionary defined and/or quantified? Forgive me for my insistence, but how does a user knows when he has "participated" enough to be entitled to have a user page in Wiktionary? I'm very sorry you didn't consider my motives to have a user page in Wiktionary to be worthy of such a privilege. Let me assure you that had I learned that such requirement existed I would had make sure I met it before creating my so called "vanity page" or would have simply passed Wiktionary. It was never my intention to trouble one of the project administrators with the deletion of my page and mostly you with this lengthy exchange about nothing. Let me assure you that I was very pleased and flattered when I saw my user page classified as a "vanity page". That is certainly a compliment that I strongly recommend that you continue to use. It does encourage people to participate in Wiktionary, making them feel right at home and most welcome.
Warmest regards,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
Vapmachado 02:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
The only edits you have made in this project are the creation of your user page and in these requests to have it restored after deletion. That is not "participation". You created your user page in July of 2008, but have made no contributions to Wiktionary content at any time in the nearly two years since then. --EncycloPetey 02:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
So what? What is your point? Did you think I didn't know that? You should give me a bit more credit. Was there any claim on my part that I had made any other kind of edits in Wiktionary? If so, please show me where. Please, point it out to me. Again, and for the third time, does Wiktionary has or not an objective criteria of participation entitling an editor to have a user page? Again, "Let me assure you that had I learned that such requirement existed I would had make sure I met it before creating my so called "vanity page" or would have simply passed Wiktionary." Let me also point out to you that Wiktionary is stirring things up by deleting user pages and calling those users, albeit indirectly, "vain". That is way beyond addressing anybody in a civilized manner. That's certainly not to be expected from persons with a higher education who live in civilized societies. But I digress. Please let me know if Wiktionary has an objective criteria of participation entitling an editor to have a user page or restore my user page. I might even entertain the thought of contributing to Wiktionary.
Warmest regards,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
Vapmachado 04:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Re "I reviewed very carefully your guideline at Wiktionary:Usernames and user pages and I am convinced that my user page met squarely all the stated criteria": No. The first criterion is that user pages "should be constructive toward the goals of Wiktionary". Yours was not. (I can see deleted pages.) While some of the information you give on the page is very relevant on a Wiktionary editor's user page (e.g., the information about what languages you speak) and some of it may be relevant on a Wiktionary editor's user page (e.g., your professional training and profession, which may be relevant to the content of the user's edits), you're no Wiktionary editor. However, you now say "I might even entertain the thought of contributing to Wiktionary". That'd be nice. If you do wind up a Wiktionary editor, let me know (I won't keep an eye out) and I'll personally and with pleasure restore your user page. (Or you can in that case restore it yourself, inasmuch as you claim — I haven't checked — that your user page is similar to that on other projects.) All the best.​—msh210 15:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Fine. Tell me how many edits you want me to do and a deadline.
Warmest regards,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
Vapmachado 04:09, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
It would be a judgment call. We like quality work and enthusiasm. Michael Z. 2010-04-09 05:24 z
I am not able to see what it was in the "vanity page" (can't see deleted pages without restoring, am I missing something?). Some users may prefer to fix their user pages, state some goals or introduce themselves but two years of inactivity and no previous activity is too long, I wouldn't blame the person for deleting it. Some users only create user pages after many edits or are not bothered at all. In my opinion, a user page should state user's language skills, if the only language is English, it should say so. --Anatoli 05:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
His user page is a complete résumé, a curriculum vitae, including telephone numbers, hobbies, education, likes, dislikes, the whole shmear. It is a Wikipedia-style vanity page. We don’t make pages like that here. If he wants to edit Portuguese entries on a regular basis from now on, perhaps 50 edits per month, then a user page that lists language skills and country of origin would be okay. But he wants to list his autobiography and doesn’t want to make any further edits after he gets permission to have the page. —Stephen 08:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
He-he. Wiktionary definitely shouldn't serve as a place to post résumés or something like that. --Anatoli 13:00, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm no longer a bit surprised by the content and tone of your answers, which now cover the following:
1) Derogatory, false, repeated and badly worded comments (His user page is a complete résumé, a curriculum vitae, including telephone numbers, hobbies, education, likes, dislikes, the whole shmear.)
2) A discriminatory remark based on country of origin (If he wants to edit Portuguese entries on a regular basis from now on, perhaps 50 edits per month, then a user page that lists language skills and country of origin would be okay.)
3) False and baseless comments (he wants to list his autobiography and doesn’t want to make any further edits after he gets permission to have the page.)
4) Despicable laughter (He-he.)
You "like quality work and enthusiasm"? So do I. What a shame that you feel entitle to express your opinions about your likes and I'm not allowed to do the same.
Two years are nothing compared to current human life expectancy. "Too long" is a subjective opinion.
You're all so smart. How come you're unable to answer a simple and direct question:
a) What is Wiktionary criteria of participation entitling an editor to have a user page?
(Sorry I'm not asking for anybody's personal opinion.)
Even when I tried to make it easier, so far nobody has given a straight answer:
b) Tell me how many edits you want me to do and a deadline.
(Watch for what you write concerning beginning and continued edits, before someone starts deleting a lot of user pages. Despite your thousands of edits, eventually both you and your user page will both be deleted. I wonder if you will have anybody left to care or be bothered by that.)
Hint: Anybody wants to risk being completely honest and straightforward about what is really going on here? Please feel free to use "E-mail this user."
Warmest regards,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
Vapmachado 02:33, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
None of our admins is naive enough to send a direct e-mail to someone whose only edits are wiki-lawyering. Since you seem to be disruptive only, and not show any actual inclination contributing to Wiktionary (despite the hint that we could bribe you into a small token bit of editing before going completely inactive again), your account will be blocked if you continue to do nothing but argue. The community has more important things to do than respond to pointless arguing, empty whining, and wiki-lawyering. --EncycloPetey 02:41, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Why can't I add translation?

Hello. When I try to add Polish translation to ATM (which is bankomat), I get Could not find translation table for 'pl:bankomat'. Glosses should be unique. Why? Kubek15 write to me 16:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

The translation table was badly formatted. It should now work properly. However, keep in mind that since ATM is an abbreviation, the translations should be abbreviations as well. -- Prince Kassad 16:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Re: "the translations should be abbreviations as well." Why's that? If the usual Polish word for ATM is bankomat, then that's what the user who looks it up will probably want to know. —Internoob (DiscCont) 22:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Abbreviations and nouns are two different parts of speech... -- Prince Kassad 22:22, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I think what he means is that an abbreviation should be used to translate an abbreviation if an abbreviation is actually used. Some languages don’t like abbreviations and ATM may have no usable abbreviation in those languages. In English, we never use the expanded, full form of ATM (automatic teller machine), and we use the abbreviation exclusively. If Polish regularly uses bankomat in the situations where we use ATM, then of course you should put bankomat. After all, bankomat is really a sort of abbreviation itself. —Stephen 22:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

people are using "step foot" instead of "set foot"

I couldn't find the former "step foot" in this resource (Yay!), but people are using it all over the place. My gut and my grandmother would say that this is incorrect usage. But poor usage seems to take the lead in our media today. Recently a Congressman wrote to me asking for a donation to make sure that his opponent never "steps foot onto the floor of Congress," which makes me uncertain about keeping this one. I need a referee.


Josh Samos
—This unsigned comment was added by (talk) at 23:00, 8 April 2010 (UTC).

Well, we're mostly descriptivist, meaning that we include terms on the basis of whether they're used, rather than on the basis of whether they're quote-unquote "correct". Our policies do allow for the concept of a "misspelling" (with misspellings being excluded unless they're common), and we've informally adopted the same approach for "misconstructions", but I'm not sure step foot would count. I've started an entry for it now; if you can find reliable sources that object to it, that would be worth noting in the entry. Thanks! —RuakhTALK 23:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Fairly long history in US. Hard to simply declare it wrong. DCDuring TALK 01:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


Which bank is issuing money —This comment was unsigned.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about. —Internoob (DiscCont) 23:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Do you mean issuing banknotes, or lending money? In either case, try the help desk at Wikipedia, and specify which country. Dbfirs 16:41, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Entering the name Robol

Dear Sirs:

I have searched Wiki Dictionary and Wikipedia and I would love to include the term Robol as my artistic name.

Robol is the artistic name adopted by musician Mauricio Reyes. Reyes is an electro-acoustic music performer from the Washington, DC area in the United States.

In this case should my name be capitalized as an artist? Do terms for the wiki dictionary must meet guidelines of notability? If anyone searches for the word Robol I would love to mention that it is the name I go by as an alectronic music artist. When a person gets very stuck submitting a term can you offer assistance to submit it correctly? —This comment was unsigned.

  • This is a dictionary - we don't normally include the names of real people. Try your luck at Wikipedia. SemperBlotto 12:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia tends to delete self-publicity. If you are notable, then find some references in the press or other publications to justify an entry. Dbfirs 16:37, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


Why is the aorist passive of βαπτίζω not given in its conjugation? It certainly exists, and I would add it, were it not for my fear of ignorantly messing things up. 16:30, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I have now seen that the page claims that the aorist passive is unknown. You will discover it if you look up any of the following: Mark 1:9; Luke 11:38; Acts 2:41, 9:18, 16:15, 16:33, 19:3, 19:5; Rom 6:3; 1 Cor 1:13, 1:15, 20:2, 12:13; Gal 3:27. 16:38, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any such claim at the page [[βαπτίζω]]: rather, I see a whole slew of aorist passive forms, with no blank spaces in the table. None of them is ἐβαπτίσθησαν (ebaptísthēsan), though (though one of them is ἐβατίσθησαν (ebatísthēsan)).​—msh210 16:45, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
That's because Stephen G. Brown (talkcontribs) fixed it. :-)   —RuakhTALK 20:38, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
No, the fix was after my comment. Rather, it's because I was not thorough: I looked at the inflection table but not the inflection line.  :-) ​—msh210 14:42, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Mandarin bots

Are there any bots out there that could help us with Mandarin entries? Would love some support... ---> Tooironic 12:45, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

'screened out of competition'

Am I the only person who doesn't know what the phrase "screened out of competition" means? (I encounter this phrase for example here and here ) Does it mean [ screened out of (prevented from being entered into) competition (competition) ] OR does it mean [ screened (shown) out of competition (for the purpose of competition) ] Also, is it possible that having an entry for this phrase, say, at screen out of competition would be beneficial for Wiktionary? —This comment was unsigned.

  • It means shown (screened), but not as part of a competition. SemperBlotto 07:17, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

How to express the case of objects at verbs

Hi! I could not find how you express the case of object at articles about verbs. The case is relevant to know for inflection and sometimes it even the meaning of a verb changes depending on which case you use. For example of the German verb vorstellen is described here: It can be used transitive and reflexive with the accusative case and reflexive with the dative case and with different meaning. In order to use the word you must know the case of the object.

The list of meanings for vorstellen should include a template with case indicator. Here I marked the object bold and added the case in braces:

  • jemanden(accusative) vorstellen  : to introduce, to present
  • sich (accusative) vorstellen : to introduce oneself
  • sich (accusative) etwas (dative) vorstellen : to imagine

There are also verbs wich allow multiple objects that may have different cases.

I think the linguistic term for the information that needs to be expressed in articles on verbs is case government - so how can this encoded in a standard way in Wiktionary? -- JakobVoss 20:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure I undersatnd your question. Where is this information to appear? As definitions of vorstellen; as supplementary phrases composed from vorstellen; in translations from English; or in some other location. If I do understand correctly then you could add information as:
  1. (with accusative) to introduce, present
    jemanden vorstellen
    einen Mann vorstellen
That is, you would indicate the necessary grammar at the front of the definition line, and include one or two example sentences underneath, chosen to illustrate the grammar (and you can include translations of these examples as well). If additional information is necessary, you can include it after the definitions in a "Usage notes" section. --EncycloPetey 20:51, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes this would be a simple solution but what if there is already a note at the front (like "reflexive") and what to do with verbal phrases that have multiple slots with multiple cases? At Template_talk:context#Cases someone already suggested to add support of cases but I don't know how to do this. -- JakobVoss 18:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


In wikipedia there is the page English words with uncommon properties were various words with odd orthographic properties are listed. There is a problem of verifability of the article so I wrote a perl script to see if I could help using wiktionary but my preliminary data has several possibly wrong names, like acccessorially etc.. --Squidonius 13:09, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I've rfv'd acccessorially. Feel free to do the same to any other words you think don't actually exist. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 13:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Also be aware of Appendix:Unsupported titles#Unsupported_length's existence, though it currently has only an Ancient Greek word, not any English ones.​—msh210 14:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

what's it means "blow-for-blow" ?

The panoramic view through the broad, steeply raked windscreen jumps towards you in great leaps when you're using all 570bhp, only the Zonda staying in sharp focus because it matches the Lamborghini blow-for-blow and then some. And you're physically working, too - the Lambo demands unwavering commitment and brute force before it reveals all of its mighty potential to the driver.

"match blow-for-blow" means that for every move, action or tactic that the Lambo makes, the Zonda does it, too. Literally, it refers to two fighters, and every time one punches the other, the other punches back equally. —Stephen 15:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

translation please

What language is this, please, and can someone translate it?

vasadia èt drogh vèlar borladoz!! foomalà ralof malokiè soraka mosa`lomoki shalifah!

Thanks—This comment was unsigned.

You might try [[WT:TRREQ]].​—msh210 15:20, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you User Msh210, I have put my request on that page.

May 2010

Looking up Chinese characters

Hi, If I know the appearance of a Chinese character but nothing else about it, how can I look up its meaning?

Try the handwriting look-up function at [3]. ---> Tooironic 23:47, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
If you can figure out the classification character (radical), you can use http:Index:Chinese_radical. Wakablogger 06:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)


Wikt use a very hard layout syntax for a newbie but wikipedian, keyboard runner like me and you have a very poor help. so many questions: As request i'm writing shigella with plural shigella or shigellae and i looked for help:plural to learn plural syntax but...nothing

  1. does some similar help page exist?
  2. if exists, can i create a redirect help:plural > .....
  3. if not, how to markup those plurals?
  4. can anyone write an help page or a votation is needed

thanks --Pierpao 07:18, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

What we encourage newcomers to do is to find a similar page (such as amphorae) and copy its syntax. I don't think that any similar help page exists. Anyone may create one. —Internoob (DiscCont) 17:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Part of the problem is that we have entries in many, many languages, and their plural form pages are not always formatted the same way. Even for English, there is some variability. Creating even a basic guide to plurals and other form-of pages would be very difficult if it were not limited to just one language. --EncycloPetey 20:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

thanks --Pierpao 08:57, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

hyponyms and derived terms

option - I ask:

  1. "American option", "European option", are they hyponyms?
  2. "Stock option" is a derived terms?
  3. Did they give fewer damages to world economy in
    It's "Related terms" a better section or not?-thanks-Pierpao 09:04, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I consider optional to be a related term, and American option to be a derived term. —Stephen 18:49, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
In this case, American, European, and stock options are all both hyponyms of (not necessarily the same) sense of option and also derived terms. All derived terms are related, but we would not duplicate them. "Optional", unlike many ultimately-Latin-derived adjectives ending in "-al", is apparently derived in modern English from "option" (not in Middle English or some vintage of French or Latin). As such, we would probably prefer to put it in Derived terms, which is more exclusive in its membership. Though we care about duplication between Derived and Related terms, we don't mind duplication between those two and the semantic categories, like hyponyms. HTH. DCDuring TALK 20:13, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


My guess would be that this entry is using an out-of-date template and as such does not seem to be linking to the English nouns and English adjectives categories (!), is this right? ---> Tooironic 14:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC) And same with daytime too right? ---> Tooironic 14:38, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

They're not using any templates. We have thousands of entries which have topical or etymological categories, but lack PoS categories. See the history of light green before I proposed it for deletion. Mglovesfun (talk) 14:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


What is the root word of benevolent?

The roots are Latin bene (well) + volō (I wish) —Stephen 01:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi I am new to Wiktionary

I have been on Wikipedia for about a month and am autoconfirmed there, but when I created a universal account for all of the wiki projects I am only autconfirmed on wikipedia. Do the same rules still apply to get autoconfired here, 10 edits and 4 days. --Alpha Quadrant 22:17, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I suspect that the autoconfirmed criteria for Wiktionary are the same here as on Wikipedia, though I'm not positive. Not really sure where to look that up. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:51, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Since when is there an edit restriction? -- Prince Kassad 22:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Again, not sure on this, but as I recall non-auto-confirmed users have certain restrictions, like they can't move or create pages, or something like that. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:53, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
See Special:ListGroupRights for different levels of user and what they may do. —Stephen 23:00, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Ok. Thank You. --Alpha Quadrant 20:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

WT Documentation

It seems that WT has much less documentation on its processes and procedures than WP. For example, the WT Signatures page is much shorter than the corresponding WP Signatures page. Is this a matter of WT just not having written this info, either because there's not that much need or because WT's population is much less, or is it that we are more of a subproject of WP rather than a separate Wikimedia Foundations project and thus we use WP's documentation? --Waiwai933 00:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary is a project of Wikimedia, and officially of the same standing of Wikipedia, but certainly of less prominence. The lack of documentation is largely a result of our lower population and narrower audience. Since we have rather fewer contributors, it often ends up being more practical to communicate through word of mouth. Also, I suspect that our policies are rather more dynamic than Wikipedia's, perhaps as a result of our smaller population. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί
WT definitely has a more dynamic structure than WP does. It's a lot easier to ask one of the more experienced editors and/or administrators if you need assistance. See WT:A for a list of current admins if you are serious about contributing in the long term. JamesjiaoTC 00:05, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

template instructions page: new hypotesis

why don't we use a "manual" subpage, for template instructions (included with <noinclude></noinclude> in the template page), like many wikies, instead of the talpakge (see template:babel)?--Pierpao 10:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually we now do. However, it will take a while until all templates are switched to use the manual subpage. -- Prince Kassad 10:22, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Fine. If you show me a completed manual, I can do it for template:babel--Pierpao 10:44, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Look at {{t}}, for example, to see how it's done. -- Prince Kassad 10:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks--Pierpao 11:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


How do I get rid of voles or field mice? 04:41, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but as that question doesn't have to do with Wiktionary, everyone here will probably either not know the answer or ignore the question. I would suggest that you ask somewhere else. —Internoob (DiscCont) 22:10, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

as it stands

Why does this entry have a Cleanup tag? I can't seem to be able to remove it either... ---> Tooironic 06:03, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

It came from {{en-phrase}}. I have changed it. --Harald Khan Ճ 07:15, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


Where must have I to ask to unprotect a page I wish to edit? thanks--Pierpao 08:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

If it's an entry, you can ask at WT:TR; if it's a policy page, WT:BP; if it's a template, WT:GP. Or, in all cases, if the page was protected recently, you can ask the protecting admin. in all events, you'll more likely get an helpful response if you specify the edit you want to make.​—msh210 18:17, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Done. Thanks.--Pierpao 05:08, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Differences between kanji and Chinese

Hi. Some entries render the Japanese kanji character differently from the Chinese. This is an example:


On my PC, the middle element of this kanji character is a horizontal bar (which I believe is the norm), whereas in the Chinese (Han) character it shows as a shorter diagonal tick. As far as I can tell, the character code is exactly the same, so I assume it must be a font difference. Can anyone tell me if this is right, and, if so, the exact font specification that's used for the two renderings? I'd be so grateful if someone could explain this! 14:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC).

It depends on the font. Some fonts have multiple glyphs for same character depending on the language. Which is the answer to your question: these are glyph differences, not character differences. For fuller details, please refer to the Unicode standard and CJKV Information Processing. Depending on your needs, Fonts & Encodings may be useful as well. 15:16, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. I was hoping to just crib what Wiktionary does for my own purposes rather than reading hundreds of pages of documentation without really knowing what I was looking for. However, thanks to your pointer about languages, and looking at "view source", I've figured out that I can just use lang="ja" and then I get the kanji-style version of the character on my page. (This is for use outside Wiktionary, you understand.) Thanks again ... you really helped me out. 17:10, 16 May 2010 (UTC).

if someone said

If someone said "I will stomp on your head and slice your throat" does that sound like a verbal threat?

After telling the police this, they said nothing was done, so they could not do anything, or document that it happened.

What to do??

This is the wrong place for that question, we are not lawyers or civil authorities. However, usually when people say things like that, they don’t mean it. If you really are afraid, you can ask for a Restraining order. —Stephen 13:51, 17 May 2010 (UTC)


Well, this is a very controversal theme. Ans ad we have standarized languages like Croatian and Serbian this whole Wiktionary should be deleted. Why? Let me show you a sample: I ju dount hef a stanart in jua lanuetch, efribadi kan warit how and wot hi wonts. Da dis majk a sens??? Autsaid of di cantries noubadi lerns this leguisz. Ounli in sam ather cantris.

I hope everyboy understand now this controverse... No standardization.

We have a policy called WT:CFI, which provides minimum requirements for inclusion of a term. Standardization is not necessary for a language to function, nor is it necessary for a dictionary like ours. Dictionaries are not about telling people which words or spellings they must use; that is the function of style guides, usage books, and governmental agencies in some countries. What we try to do is to describe the language that is being used, rather than prescribe to people how they should use it.
In any case, it's not entirely clear what it is you're trying to say. You open by talking about Serbo-Croatian, then move on to standardization, and then type some English sentences phonetically. Whatever your point was, it's not clear, but if it pertained to a need for standardization to make a dictionary possible, then that's not true. --EncycloPetey 03:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Word present in the OED?

Is it acceptable to post an entry for a word in the OED that consists of nothing except my own rewritten version of the OED definition? I'd like to create an entry for quidrathe. Nyttend 00:47, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Find a quotation that backs up the meaning, and reference the OED. It'd be nice to find approximate dates of usage, is it still current? Conrad.Irwin 00:51, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I seriously doubt that it's current; the first time that I encountered it was when I went to find a word in the "Q" section of the OED that I'd never heard of before. The 1971 printing of the OED marks it with a dagger; I can't remember if this indicates "archaic" or "obsolete". The entry's two quotations are from 1570 and 1592. Nyttend 01:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, the one quotation on the almighty google [4] also quoted by the OED would seem to support the definition being a tax, though the rest of their definition seems to be backformed from their etymology (unless they have more evidence that isn't shown in the online version). It's probably {{obsolete|rare}}. Conrad.Irwin 01:11, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Please review

Could a experienced editor please review some of my recent edits? Special:Contributions/Immunize 23:10, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

multiple usage tags

If I want to put multiple usage tags on a definition (e.g. "US" and "informal" on hump day, yielding "(US, informal)"), I think there's a template for that, but I can't figure out what it is. —scs 00:06, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

{{US|informal}} Conrad.Irwin 00:07, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
That was quick! Thanks. —scs 00:08, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


How come there's only 217 in total here? ---> Tooironic 05:55, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Ideally there should be none there. Those there only lack the verb type. See the (ill-named) sub-categories, which contain many more. (By the way, everything in Category:Japanese verb forms should be deleted...) Bendono 06:53, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
How do we get a count of all Japanese verbs on Wiktionary then? ---> Tooironic 21:39, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
The page shows the amount of entries in each of the subcategories (i.e. "Japanese Type 1 Verbs (0 c, 683 e)" means there are 683 entries of Japanese Type 1 verbs), so you can just add them up. --Yair rand (talk) 21:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Noun of avail?

avail can apparently be used as a noun as well, but now usually only in negative constructions, such as in to no avail. availing seems to be a more flexible noun form, but does anybody know a better noun form of avail? Mikael Häggström 07:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

availment does not appear in either the BNC or COCA. It seems rare in modern times in the US or UK. It does seem to appear in Indian English (business and law) and in international law. So perhaps it rises llke Lazarus in the East. DCDuring TALK 01:27, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


am reading a book and in that book is a quotation " what cant be cured MAUN be endured" , i have searched many dictionary sites for the meaning of this word, but all come up with -it is a tourism place in Africa. can someone help me please.

It’s Scots. Maun means must in Scots. —Stephen 22:24, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
... and also Northern English, though it is usually spelled and pronounced mun here. Dbfirs 20:43, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

found in the wild

I heard on the local (St. Louis, Mo.) news tonight that someone had hurt his neck so was "loaded on to a /ˈgʊɹij/" and into an ambulance. is this a pronunciation of gurney, or some other word (and what word)?—msh210℠ on a public computer 03:11, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I don’t think it’s a pronunciation of a word. He probably said gurney. Maybe there was a blip in the broadcast signal, or perhaps he suffered a spasm, or it could be that he was reading from a text that had a typo and thought it was a new word that he didn’t know. —Stephen 04:07, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps so. If it's one of those three possibilities, then I think it would have to be the last, as it definitely sounded like a /ʊ.ɹ/ rather than a /ɹ̩/. Thanks, SGB.—msh210℠ on a public computer 00:42, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

June 2010


Do we categorise entries by onomatopoeia? ---> Tooironic 04:57, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

That classification is a byproduct of properly using {{onomatopoeia}} with a lang= parameter. DCDuring TALK 11:39, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
{{onomatopoeia}} is a context tag and has parentheses that are not satisfactory for use in an etymology, which is usually where it would belong, rather than on each sense line. See achoo. DCDuring TALK 11:46, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Ablution or ablutions

Is the definition mean to go to toilet (or use the rest room) just a UK definition? 06:48, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying that this can refer to urination/defecation rather than to washing? It would not be too surprising as a humorous euphemism. I am trying to imagine how to find quotations that clearly demonstrate that usage. DCDuring TALK 10:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Language blends

Are words that are used in language blends, like Spanglish or Siculish, allowed on Wiktionary? I'd imagine that they'd be words of the foreign language they're primarily used in, with labels like (Siculish). I've written an example here. --Andrew C talk (afc0703) 02:23, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, such words are welcome here, though they can be tricky to format. Reading the article on Siculish, though, I wonder if marchetta might actually be English. What would be helpful in determining this would be some quotes, if you can find them. In any case, the borders of languages can be murky waters, but we encourage the attempt at navigating them. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:46, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Well, such words are welcome, but as members of the English, Spanish, or Sicilian language. There are some creoles/pidgins that we do count as separate languages, though, such as Haitian Creole. I don't know what our criteria are for what counts as a language, though it helps if the language has an ISO code. See also [[WT:LANGTREAT]].​—msh210 15:15, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the replies. I agree that the words belong under the existing languages and not a "new" one. As for whether the words are English or Sicilian: words like marchetta tend to be used in sentences that are primarily Sicilian with the idea being that the words are borrowed from English. I'll see if I can find any quotes, but it'll probably be difficult. It's hard enough finding quotes for Sicilian! Also, I'd like to categorize any of these words I might add. Would Category:Siculish suffice, or should they be associated with the language, like Category:scn:Siculish, or something entirely different? --Andrew C talk (afc0703) 21:20, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
We'd definitely want to associate the category with the language, so perhaps something like Category:Siculish Sicilian (kind of a mouthful, but I think in line with our naming conventions). One thing about the quotes to keep in mind. One of our primary conditions for existence on Wiktionary is attestation, which gives us a standard to prevent all sorts of nonsense from creeping in. We haven't yet gotten to the point where we've collected the requisite cites for every word on here (not even close, actually), but the requirement is often called for in the case of dubious or odd cases, just to make sure that the word is actually in use. If the required cites are not produced, an editor is well within their rights to simply delete the entry (see the opening text to WT:RFV). Consequently, if you can't find cites for these words, you enter them at the risk of all your work going up in smoke. There are a few editors who have made an art out of finding cites for words, and I strongly suspect that they'd be more than happy to share tips if you were to ask for them at the talk page of WT:RFV (or perhaps they'll see the topic here and do so). -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:19, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Just a couple of things off the top of my head (as I aspire to be one of the editors who makes an art of finding hard-to-find citations): Try Google's Book or News Archive or Scholar search. If searching in a specific language, look for a common word that's unique to that language appearing on the same page, like the. (Put a plus sign before it in the search to force the search for it.) If searching for a specific part of speech, try it with collocations: for example, if searching for a noun sense of an English word that is common as an adjective, try it in plural or in "[word] of". Others will have more (and better) tips.​—msh210 18:52, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

urban mobility

What is urban mobility?. --Nudecline 12:25, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

From a Web search, it seems to mean the mobility of people within a city.​—msh210 15:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

example sentences

What is the agreed format for giving example sentences for a word? For example with affixes that don't exist as words on their own I would need to provide an example sentence in order to show how it would be used in a broader context. Jakeybean 11:40, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

P.S. sorry if this information is already given somewhere on the site. —This comment was unsigned.
See WT:ELE. DCDuring TALK 12:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
It is difficult to find this information in ELE, but see WT:ELE#Example sentences. —Stephen 09:48, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

English Spelling Must Be Reformed

English spelling must be reformed. Our language is a monster, reportedly set down by jobsworths paid by the letter, with a vested interest in prolonging written words, adding silent k’s or b’s. The Americans have begun the job, cutting ‘honour’ down to ‘honor’ and so on; but what a task remains! The old Linguistics Department cartoon of a man with a dead fish uttering the word ‘Ghoti’ above the caption ‘Enough – Women – Nation’ was meant to show how those three peculiar spellings could give him reasons to spell ‘Fish’ as he did. What a mess. The student of Spanish has a far easier time than the English Language pupil. The spelling of Spanish was tidied up some years ago so that (for the moment at least) it matches the sounds they make. I say this because languages move on and need occasional adjustment: trends and new words have to be added to dictionaries, and so on. The question is: how can we get to the position where our spoken language is accurately reflected in our spelt words? 16:02, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah English is a f---ing nightmare. Following some example, the spelling reforms in French, German, Portuguese and Dutch have never got anywhere, seen as quango trying to force their opinions on other people. So basically, we're stuck with it. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
See, e.g., the article on SoundSpel on Wikipedia. However, the current spelling tends to be etymology-preserving: the downside of a phonetic English spelling reform is that it could easily destroy much of the (1) etymology and/or (2) similarity to cognate terms or borrowed terms from other languages. However, a phonetic spelling reform would make it easier for dyslexics to learn to read/write English. —AugPi (t) 16:40, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
However, from my own experience learning English, I never got the impression that learning to read/write English was hard. Some spellings, though, really are confusing, for example: the word "colonel", as it is written (i.e. literally, letter-per-letter), is unpronounceable in English (it's a real tongue-blocker), though it would be pronounceable in Spanish or Italian: in English it is de facto pronounced like "coronel" or "kernel". —AugPi (t) 19:35, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, a page of English text is rather pleasant to look at, especially since it is unmarred by profuse use of diacritics or extraneous characters. —AugPi (t) 19:38, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
However, the "especially" clause just above would also be true of SoundSpel. —AugPi (t) 19:40, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
But the main clause might not: looking at a sample of SoundSpel text, it doesn't seem as "pretty" as the current English... Would that, however, be because I'm just not used to it? —AugPi (t) 19:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
See also:
  • The greatest thing about English is that it's not governed by any particular institution or government, so any efforts on "reforming" it are doomed to fail. --Ivan Štambuk 19:26, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I agree, to make a reform, there must be an authority to do that and the chance of resistance is very high too. The language reform is easier done with a language, which is used by one country - like it was with Russian in the Soviet Russia. The (simplification) reform in China is still heavily opposed by Han Chinese outside China. There are so many English spelling reform movements - they have some support too but far from enough to make a difference. Too many people rely on spell-checkers for English, which are easily available too, even as browser plug-ins if you type on the web. English is best learned with shadowing - listen and read simultaneously, and repeat after the speaker - like Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Persian, Hebrew and other non-phonetic and semi-phonetic languages - to memorise the pronunciation and the spelling together. --Anatoli 05:04, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Thaïs/Thais: extra space caused by template

Would someone please fix this problem and explain the cause and solution? Sorry for asking for action as well as information, but due to chronic illness I'm sort of a random reader/editor on a good day and can't rely on myself to manage ongoing projects, even small ones. Thanks for the extra help in advance.

The problem: In the entry Thaïs, there's a space after the word "name" and before the comma. I tried to remove it, but that space is generated by a template. The same problem occurs in Thais, except the space is before a period.

The text in Thaïs:

  1. A female given name , cognate to English Thais.

The template in Thaïs:

  1. A female given name, cognate to English Thais.

Thanks again, Geekdiva 20:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Fixed, though it may take time for all the entries which incorporate this template to be updated. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:59, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Antillean Creole

Does anyone know how mutually intelligible the French creoles spoken in the Lesser Antilles are (e.g. Guadeloupean, Dominican, Saint Lucian Creoles)? —Internoob (DiscCont) 20:21, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

From [5], "Dominica dialect is virtually the same as Saint Lucia (97%–99% intelligibility)." The same source says that the Creole of Grenada is "[t]he same as, or similar to, that spoken in Saint Lucia". Also, "Comprehension [between] Saint Lucia Creole [and Guadeloupe/Martinique Creole] is 89%." [6] Is 89% enough for them to be treated as dialects? What about Haitian Creole (it's less intelligible, I'm pretty sure)? —Internoob (DiscCont) 20:37, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
We also the language codes acf for Saint Lucian Creole French and gcf which the ISO gives the name Guadeloupean Creole French, but which we use for Antillean Creole. My question is should we treat these as one language? —Internoob (DiscCont) 17:47, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
User talk:Prince Kassad#Antillean Creole.

Other names:

  • Nishtafun,نشتيفان,Nashtīqan,Nashtiqan,Nīshāfūn,Nishafun,Nashtīfān,Nīshtāfūn

Nearby Cities and Towns West North East South Baghcheh (3.5 nm) Harashi (4.0 nm) Kalateh-ye Zia'olmolk (2.9 nm) Mehrabad (3.2 nm) Baghcheh (3.6 nm) Asadabad (4.0 nm) Gajeneh (4.1 nm) Kojnah (4.4 nm) Tizab-e Qadim (4.7 nm) Tizab-e Jadid (4.7 nm) Dasht (4.5 nm) Dasht (4.8 nm) Barabad (3.1 nm) Berenjak (3.8 nm) Bagh-e Mazar (4.1 nm) Kalateh-ye Amir Ahmad (1.6 nm) Kalateh-ye `Ali (1.7 nm) Zeynabad (2.4 nm) Kalateh-ye Sheykh (3.4 nm) —This unsigned comment was added by (talk).

New editor

Hello all I'm a new editor to Wiktionary, I was just wondering if there was a handy tutorial for creating a wiktionary entry, I tried my first one ULRR but of course it is not very good! Best regards, Captain-n00dle (en.wiki) 09:53, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

See WT:ELE. —Stephen 09:57, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Thank you, Kind regards Captain-n00dle (en.wiki) 09:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

why some of the student are weak in listening?


Is there any thesaurus function here, other than Wiktionary:Wikisaurus? I thought that I'd seen one before, but I'm so rarely here at Wiktionary that I could easily remember wrongly. Nyttend 03:05, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

You can look at the List of words with many semantic relations... So thesaurus relations could be presented in the Wiktionary entry. It's a kind of the Wiktionary embedded thesaurus :) -- Andrew Krizhanovsky 10:16, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Why the word "Coaster"?

The thing we use to protect tables from condensation from glasses or mugs - called a "beer mat" in England - from where did the word "coaster" come?

Brendan Sharkey 13:42, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

A coaster used to be a silver tray for a decanter, bottle, or vase, popular in Victorian times. It would “coast” around the table as the bottle was passed. Michael Z. 2010-06-12 15:07 z


A good question: What does it mean when there are two ˥s in a row? —Internoob (DiscCont) 04:12, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Point to an example, please. —Stephen 05:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Argh! I saw the question posted last night that this comes from. It's on a talk page, which isn't indexed by Google and isn't coming up in a local Search. The only help I can offer is that I saw this question posted more than 24 hours ago on a talk page. It's a question about a pronunciation given on a CJKV entry. I'd guess that it means tone1 but held longer rather than shorter. --EncycloPetey 05:35, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Aha! I found the page the question was asked about: 潮州. --EncycloPetey 05:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, tʂou˥˥ means high and level = zhōu. It doesn’t mean longer, but that it begins high and ends high. —Stephen 06:11, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


Clicking on the "Discussion" tab when there is no talk page for the particular article puts up one of two pages.

Not sure what causes the distinction but one of them is something like "Wiktionary does not yet have a talk page for ..."

The other is "You are looking at an inexistent [sic] page ..."

Strangely there is no entry in Wiktionary for "inexistent"! Phil Last 07:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Some technical work has been performed by folks who are not native English speakers. We have no procedure for requiring proofreading of pages. Although inexistent is a legitimate word, it is academic in its usage, a poor choice for such a page. DCDuring TALK 11:51, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I would have assumed that it was incomparable, but I see that people like jake-weird (whoever he is) use "more inexistent" in blogs. Dbfirs 07:58, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


name two bacteria whose cell wall is made up of cellulose

A dictionary site is not the best place to pose quiz questions. This information is better suited to an encyclopedia. --EncycloPetey 14:58, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


I saw a gravestone that had only what looked like "POCZTAЯ". (Perhaps the other side had more.) is there a language that uses a letter that looks liek 'Z' and one that looks like 'Я'?​—msh210 19:11, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

You sure it wasn't Latin POCZTAR, which could be a Slavic name? Michael Z. 2010-06-16 04:44 z
I'm sure the 'R' was 'backward'. I suppose it could have been a typo/engravo (though whoever paid for the stone, if living (or if dead, I suppose), wouldn't be too happy about that).​—msh210 20:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
It may have been pseudo-Cyrillic. Maybe if the relative has Slavic roots and they wanted to make him an appropriate gravestone, who knows. -- Prince Kassad 20:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
Could be. Thanks, gentlemen.​—msh210 20:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

how to import word lists?

If I compiled a table of Mandarin words with their English definitions, is there a way to get it automatically imported into Wiktionary? I think it would be a great addition. It would be all my own work and released into the public domain. ---> Tooironic 12:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Your best bet for something like that would probably be a python bot. We've got a few python coders who could probably whip up such a thing in a jiffy. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
Great - any takers? ---> Tooironic 02:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

chele definition is incorrect

Chele as used in Nicaragua is "leche" or milk spelled backward and means "whitey" not blonde.

Katheryne 02:49, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, fixed. —Stephen 17:45, 17 June 2010 (UTC)


Wiktionary says the definition for hyperliterate is "exceptionally literate", but from what I can find it seems to mean literate in hypertext. This site even defines the word hyperliterature in those terms. The only other use seems to be to describe the rock band The Decemberists. What it means there I can't make out. Shouldn't the current definition be changed? 23:36, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems to have two different meanings. I've added your sense to the entry. Dbfirs 07:53, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. Are you sure, though, that it's ever used to mean exceptionally literate? And does that mean able to read in a large number of languages or able to read things that are illegible to most? 14:17, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, there seem to be usages both for literate in hypertext and for exceptionally literate in a native language. I don't know which is more common. I haven't seen usage referring to many languages. Dbfirs 15:46, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


This is my first English given name entry - could someone please check to see if I formatted it correctly? Thanks. ---> Tooironic 02:48, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

User page deleted??

My user page was deleted by User:SemperBlotto claiming that I wasn't the creator of the page. Could and admin please restore this for me. I asked him on his talk page but he hasn't responded. Thanks PopMusicBuff talk 19:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I've restored the userpage. You weren't logged in when you made the userpage, so it wasn't possible to tell whether it was actually you or not. --Yair rand (talk) 20:09, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Actually, SB did, in fact, respond to the query, almost immediately. The answer was simply no. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:34, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Apologies. On EN-Wiki, I am used to the user either responding on my talk page, or leaving a notice on my talk page telling me that they responded. I failed to check back on their talk page. PopMusicBuff talk 21:47, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


The word of the day was flyblown (adj): 1. Contaminated with flyblows. I believe that this should have been maggots, not flyblows 2. Tainted <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flyblown> Having spent many hours in my youth crutching sheep (removing wool from around the crutch between shearing's to stop urine and faeces building up and creating an environment conducive to flys laying maggots in the wool) to ensure the sheep would not become flyblown, which left untreated would eventually kill the sheep. 02:27, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

A flyblow is a maggot (larval fly), although the definition may not make that entirely clear. --EncycloPetey 02:49, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

How to "find" the problems in order to solve them: {attention|de}

I am browsing the http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:German_words_needing_attention but I cannot see how to improve articles like Osten when there's just the template "{attention|de}" in it, but no closer description of any problem. Where to pay my attention there? horrible English Thanks for instructing me, --WissensDürster 11:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I don’t know either. Mglovesfun added the attention template in January, but I do not know why. You might ask him. —Stephen 11:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
It should use {{de-noun}}. That's it. Yes, I should have put an edit summary. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Oh, and East Germany is a proper noun, not a common noun. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:36, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Anyway, it was just an example. Most of the articles in this category have no specification of a problem... I'm not eager to search the history for each person who added the template ... Seems like I just cannot improve those articles. Maybe I find some with detailed problem description. Thanks, --WissensDürster 12:01, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
I tagged some while adding {{etyl}} templates. They just need {{de-noun}} (adj, adv, etc.) So if you're experienced with German but not Wiktionary templates, you can't help. IMO don't detag them though as someone else might want to add a template (FYI see [[Category:German words needing attention]]). Mglovesfun (talk) 12:30, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Wow. People who speak certain languages but not the 'language of wiki' fit for nothing o.O that seems to me like a waste of manpower. But I will follow your advice not to rush in removing those templates ... I'll try to figure out how en.wiktionary works... so mote it be. --WissensDürster 15:20, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Your knowledge of German is very valuable to Wiktionary! I'm sure that what Mglovesfun meant to say was that this problem is not one that a knowledge of German alone can solve, and that you will need to familiarise yourself with the templates to make the required improvement to the format of the entry. Dbfirs 07:41, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks :) I assume good faith, --WissensDürster 08:47, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Griefer synonyms

Just wondering if people agree that these are synonymous (or synonymous enough):

grief#Verb transitivity

Is it intransitive, or transitive, or both? (Does one grief an online community? or one's fellow players?)


--Person12 15:05, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

It is transitive. Usually you grief your opponents, but you could grief fellow players or even the communitiy. —Stephen 22:03, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. Is it also used intransitively, though? And if so, do we not put any transitivity-related tag(s) on it? — Person12 01:10, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I cannot think of an example where it would be used intransitively. As for transivity tags, I am involved in translation, not writing English definitions, so I can’t help with that. —Stephen 01:37, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Categories: Leet and Internet slang

Is it a categorizing redundancy to have a term (I'm thinking of leet in particular at the moment) in both Category:Leet and Category:Internet slang?

Also, is there any policy against having a word (e.g. troll) in all of the following categories: Internet, Slang and Internet slang?

Thanks --Person12 15:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking that since leet is a form of Internet slang, adding [[Category:Internet slang]] isn't all that helpful. Re: the next question, it's not impossible but I'd expect the three differet categories to come from three different definitions. So an Internet term that's not slang, a slang term not primarily used on the Internet, and an Internet slang one. Mglovesfun (talk) 15:16, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
It isn’t a matter of disambiguation, where two or more categories might be redundant, but how people look for information. If someone is looking in the category of Internet slang, should he be able to find leet listed there? And if someone else is looking in the category of Leet, would and should he expect to find the word leet itself, if indeed leet is leet slang?
There is no policy that says a word may only be place into one category, it is entirely dependent on how different people might mine for information. If a word fits in ten categories, it should be listed in ten categories. —Stephen 20:32, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Ah, ok. Thanks. (Sorry about that. I got confused after seeing the "no:Slang" and "no:Internet" Categories at noob, which I assumed meant 'no' to the individual categories 'Slang' and 'Internet', but just now, actually going and reading those categories' pages, the 'no' obviously means Norwegian. Ah ha!) --Person12 01:24, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I think perhaps the key word in what I've said is I - that is "there is no policy". Mglovesfun (talk) 01:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Entomology of "Volume" in the acoustic sense

When/Where/Why/How did "volume" become a synonym for "loudness"? Humanist Geek 05:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

The usage was first recorded (though with a rather wider meaning) in Busby's Dictionary of Music in 1801 "Volume, a word applied to the compass of a voice from grave to acute; also to its tone, or power: as when we say, ‘such a performer possesses an extensive or rich volume of voice’. By the late 1800s the word was being used chiefly to mean the power (decibel) output of a voice. It was then a simple step to transfer the meaning to acoustics, with "volume control" being first used in 1927. The original etymology I don't think insects use the term! of the size sense dates back to 1530, though it meant the size of a book originally, and Wycliffe used the words "gret volyms of newe lawes" (great volumes of new laws) around 1380, though he meant books of course. Dbfirs 12:37, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Homophony "iron" and "ion"?

The section on pronunciation of ion says that the homophony with iron exists only in certain "accents", but the IPA spelling of ion and iron (UK) are identical. How may I pronounce iron to make a difference? Can I say /ˈaɪrən/? -- 18:36, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I say ˈɑjɹ̩n for iron and ˈɑjɑn for ion.​—msh210 (talk) 19:12, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I would pronounce then as homophones unless I wanted to distinguish, then I would use ˈɑɪɹ̩n (as normally used by msh210 above). The OED has the two words as homophones for standard British pronunciation (ˈɑjən or ˈɑɪən - sounds more Welsh with the j), but there is considerable regional variation. In Scottish pronunciation, the "r" is much more prominent for iron, so you might sound Scottish if you say /ˈaɪrən/. Dbfirs 07:19, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
The problem is that we lack the US IPA on ion. It is most certainly not a homophone for iron in American English. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:24, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
As a non-rhotic British English speaker, when I want to distinguish "iron" and "ion" I use /aɪ.ɜːn/ and /aɪ.ɒn/ respectively. Thryduulf (talk) 10:10, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

what if I don't know the meaning of a word

I found the word chinker - I think it is a hard hit in baseball, coming from the chink sound made from the baseball hitting the metal bat. All of the quotes I've found for this indicate it is a good hit, i.e. one that might get a run, but I'm not sure what exactly it is. What can I do with this entry if I know a word exists, but I don't know how to define it? --Mat200 14:14, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

You could put it in WT:REE requested entries English with some clues (eg, "baseball") or you could create and add citations to Citations:clinker or both. DCDuring TALK 15:23, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. These are useful pages. I assume you mean Citations:chinker, though. --Mat200 18:33, 1 July 2010 (UTC)