Wiktionary:Grease pit

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Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Grease pit

Welcome to the Grease pit!

This is an area to complement the Beer parlour and Tea room. Its purpose is specifically for discussing the future development of the English Wiktionary, both as a dictionary and as a website.

The Grease pit is a place to discuss technical issues such as templates, CSS, JavaScript, the MediaWiki software, extensions to it, the toolserver, etc. It is also a place to think in non-technical ways about how to make the best free and open online dictionary of "all words in all languages".

It is said that while the classic beer parlour is a place for people from all walks of life to talk about politics, news, sports, and picking up chicks, the grease pit is a place for mechanics, engineers, and technicians to talk about nuts and bolts, engine overhauls, fancy paint jobs, lumpy cams, and fat exhausts. That may or may not make things clearer... Others have understood this page to explain the "how" of things, while the Beer parlour addresses the "why".

Permanent notice

  • Tips and tricks about customization or personalization of CSS and JS files are listed at WT:CUSTOM.
  • Other tips and tricks are at WT:TAT.
  • Everyone is encouraged to expand both pages, or to come up with more such stuff. Other known pages with "tips-n-tricks" are to be listed here as well.

Grease pit archives edit


June 2015

specific definition url references[edit]

It should be possible to reference a specific definition via url. So someone could, elsewhere on the web, hyperlink words mid-sentence to the specific definition for clarity, perhaps using some sort of GUID in the case that definitions are added/removed. When visiting the link, it should be an anchor on the definition page. It should also have some sort of highlighting via CSS3 :target or some such

P.S. not only is this great for humans, it's great for machines too. —This unsigned comment was added by Tailspinhead (talkcontribs).

It's possible to create sense-specific anchors using {{anchor}}. I imagine that the reason sense-specific anchors are not created automatically is that Wiktionary, as a work in progress, tends to reorder senses, add senses (sometimes between existing senses), delete senses, and reword senses. Automatic anchors based on sense-number would break whenever the first three of those things happened; anchors based on definition (e.g. if the definition begins "A feeling of sadness and...", the software might come up with #afeelingof as an automatic anchor) would presumably break if someone reworded the sense. (Of course, such anchors would work if used on permalinks...) Bear in mind that it's only recently that someone proposed a fix to the bug that stops linking to a second ===Etymology=== section on a page that has a ===Etymology 2=== section. - -sche (discuss) 03:38, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
The issues you mention is exactly why I say to use a GUID. It should be automatic and no user intervention should be required. EVERY definition should AUTOMATICALLY have these things. It is a technical problem requiring a technical solution. (i.e. I consider it a bug in the software that it doesn't already do this, as it is obvious to a computer scientist that a dictionary should work this way) Tailspinhead (talk) 11:15, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I think that reliably maintaining these IDs automatically would be quite tricky given the unstructured or free-form nature of Wikipedia editing. With each edit, the program would need to match "before" and "after" entries, and figure out which were intended to be the same (but maybe edited), which were new, which were deleted. With simple edits this would not be a problem, but with complex edits that changed a lot of stuff or moved it around, it would be pretty difficult I think. 23:58, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
"given the unstructured or free-form nature of Wikipedia editing" -- bug. Tailspinhead (talk) 12:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
It seems like you should file a feature-request on Phabricator. Automatic addition of sense-specific anchors would be within the control of the devs, not Wiktionarians. (I would file a report for you, but I don't have a Phabricator account.) I imagine the devs will themselves see the hurdles that have been pointed out in this thread (you should link to this thread from your Phabricator post), but you might persuade them that sense-specific anchors would still be useful because they could be employed in combination with permalinks to specific revisions of pages, and in that way would enable reliable links to specific definitions despite ongoing edits to Wiktionary. Mention that they will need to account for our occasional use of sub-senses and even sub-sub-senses, i.e. that most definitions begin with '#' on a new link, but some (nested below a '#') begin with '##' and potentially even '###', etc. - -sche (discuss) 17:49, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


How come this doesn't support "kept", "deleted", "speedy kept" and "speedy deleted" anymore? I tried to make it support those and now it doesn't. It needs to support those if at all possible. Purplebackpack89 20:44, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

It supports "passed", "failed", and "archived", what more do you need? Speedy deletions theoretically don't have discussions, and speedy keeps theoretically don't exist; when either of those is not the case, "archived" is the correct option because whatever happened was technically not a result of the discussion. --WikiTiki89 20:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
As I said above, "kept", "deleted", "speedy kept" and "speedy deleted"; the first and third synonymous with passed and the other two synonymous with failed. It's confusing at the present time for the template to support so few parameters; it would be less confusing if more parameters were supported. As for "why do we need speedy keep and speedy delete?", there are things that are at RfD, and an admin comes alonh, speedy deletes them long before the time limit ends, and closes the discussion. Those discussions would best be characterized as "speedy deleted". Purplebackpack89 20:53, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
As I said, speedies are not a result of the discussion and so "archived" suffices. If something was speedy deleted, it would have been speedy deleted even if there weren't a discussion. --WikiTiki89 20:59, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
But why shouldn't it support "kept" or "deleted" as parameters synonymous with "passed" and "failed"? Discussions are closed that way, why doesn't the template support those? Purplebackpack89 21:04, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Why should it? You need to make a better case here. —CodeCat 21:27, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Because the closers of discussions use the words "kept" and "deleted" rather than "passed" or "failed" to introduce the summary of findings. Because it's confusing to not have it. That's really all the argument I need. Purplebackpack89 21:42, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
  • I'd like to see the ability to close discussions as "RFD kept" rather than "RFD passed". RFD is neither a test or verification, so it cannot "pass". Thus, I ask that Kephir restores the version of the template that supports this. Actually, since RFD is "request for deletion", "passed" even suggests the request will be satisfied and the entry deleted. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:51, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

It's time for a party who hasn't participated in this discussion to close this as add "keep" and "delete" as parameters. There are clearly at least two people in support of adding these, and nobody has provided an argument as to why they shouldn't be included. Purplebackpack89 18:31, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

This is no longer a technical issue, so if you want these parameters to be added, we need a WT:BP discussion to work out the details. I will start one. --WikiTiki89 18:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)


In the entry burrë, an editor wants {{a|Arvanite}} or {{a|Arvanites}} to link to w:Arvanites. I can’t locate the proper place to add this, and I don’t know if it’s even needed. —Stephen (Talk) 22:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

@Stephen G. Brown: It seems to me that you would create {{accent:Arvanite}} (as in {{accent:US}}, {{accent:UK}}, etc.) Why this is not done with nice pretty module that just has a data page is bizarre to me. I may remake this template some time soon. —JohnC5 05:52, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. I started to make {{accent:Arvanite}} based on {{accent:US}}, but there are a couple of terms in it that I do not know what to do with. —Stephen (Talk) 06:53, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
@Stephen G. Brown: voilà: (Arvanite)JohnC5 07:37, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
Oh, thanks! —Stephen (Talk) 11:41, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Declension cases ordering preference[edit]

[I doubt this is the correct place for this, a feature request, but I'm lost.]

Is there a way that a user preference could be set up to control the order in which cases are listed in Latin declensions? (Ditto for other languages too, if there is demand from some users about eg German, Celtic.)

I just find the Latin order displayed currently is bruising my brain.

many thanks for all the outstanding work, CecilWard (talk) 08:01, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

@CecilWard: I totally sympathize with you struggle. I too have found other orderings in other books and on other sites terribly confusing and frustrating. To my knowledge, however, no such change could be implemented easily as many language declension templates are coded very differently from one another and some languages have case systems of such hideous complexity that a user would go mad specifying all of their orders.
I cannot say it won't happen with certainty, but it seems extremely unlikely. Again, sorry for the inconvenience, but we strive to present case tables in the standard ordering according to English language scholarship. I will point out that the German declension templates ({{de-decl-noun}}) do not use the standard order, which should be NOM, ACC, GEN, DAT, but instead is the Latinate order NOM, GEN, DAT, ACC. —JohnC5 08:35, 7 June 2015 (UTC).

For reasons unknown, I was brought up with nom - voc - acc - gen - dat - abl - loc ordering for Latin, and so I continue to suffer. CecilWard (talk) 09:47, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Broken links to discussions[edit]

In Wiktionary there seem to be quite a few broken links to discussion pages, and no easy way to find the original target of those links. For example, at right there is a big banner at the top with a link "Please see the discussion on Requests for cleanup", but the link does not work. Supposing that the relevant content had been archived, I tried typing "right" into the "Search in the archives of Request for cleanup" box, but this produced nothing useful. I wonder if a better mechanism could be found to either prevent these links from breaking in the first place, or at least to make it easier to find the relevant entry in the archive. 20:54, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

That rfc was placed on 20 September 2011. If there was a discussion on WT:RFC, it probably has been moved to an archive by now. —Stephen (Talk) 02:50, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Module Errors at [edit]

This entry spontaneously develops module errors from time to time, and it's easy to see why: Etymology 4 says "Used as ateji in various names. 愛 is a very common element in many, many names.", which is followed by proper noun entries for 50 different names spelled with this character (not compounds- just the one character). If there's anything slowing the system down, all the module-execution time for the page has been used up before it gets to the 50th.

Is there any way to optimize these, given that we know the language and script and we don't need to add the same categories 50 times? I was thinking we could leave the first one alone, and have a bare-bones version for the other 49.

The wikitext of the first one, as an example (The only thing that changes is the hiragana- "あづみ" in this case) :
# {{given name|female|lang=ja|sort=あづみ}}
"Templates used in this section":
Template:given name
Module:script utilities
"Parser profiling data":
CPU time usage 0.232 seconds
Real time usage 0.248 seconds
Preprocessor visited node count 104/1000000
Preprocessor generated node count 0/1500000
Post-expand include size 1420/2097152 bytes
Template argument size 38/2097152 bytes
Highest expansion depth 5/40
Expensive parser function count 0/500
Lua time usage 0.207/10.000 seconds
Lua memory usage 1.45 MB/50 MB
Categories added by the wikitext in the section:
Category:Japanese lemmas
Category:Japanese proper nouns
Category:Japanese terms spelled with fourth grade kanji
Category:Japanese terms written with one Han script character
Category:Japanese terms spelled with 愛
Category:Japanese female given names
Category:Japanese single-kanji terms (hidden)

As far as I can figure out, the only non-redundant things that are being done:

  1. The hiragana is getting the standard Module:links treatment
    1. If the hiragana is a redlink, the link is accelerated for preloaded entry-creation
  2. The hiragana is being used to create a standard (Module:links) link to its romaji (romanization- "Azumi" in this case).

Category:Japanese female given names has a different sort key, but I seem to remember that a given page has only one sort key for a given category- so 49 of the 50 sort keys are ignored.

Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 23:44, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Do we know why only sometimes it produces module errors? Is it related to caching?
Knowing that more diverse and much larger page a only needs 3 seconds I think there's something wrong in the implementation of (probably) ja-pos.
Re for 1.1: if ja-pos really checks for the existence of the hiragana then that might be it.
Why not create a specialized {{ja-proper noun}} ?...--Dixtosa (talk) 13:12, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't remember anyone having explained it, but I've noticed that such problems correlate with the generation of things like Special:WantedCategories. I suspect that competition from a process running in the background is increasing the time it takes for operations to complete, so that anything that's close to the 10-second limit is going to be pushed past it. Chinese-character pages, in general, are very module-intensive because many of the specialized modules have huge tables and do sophisticated things with the data. That gives less room for other operations, though I see from the parser stats that I just added above that this section alone takes more than 1/50 of the 10 seconds: if it weren't for the fact that some of that is shared rather than additive, it would run over every time. As for {{ja-proper noun}}, wouldn't it be doing the same check for the existence of hiragana? I was thinking of just hardcoding the , but there's the matter of script support and of the processing of the hiragana and romaji. I'm a little reluctant to create a specialized template just for one extreme entry, especially since I don't really edit Japanese entries except to fix obvious problems. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:15, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Default continuation mode for action=query will change soon; bots may be affected[edit]

As announced in Tech News, "the default continuation mode for action=query requests to api.php will be changing to be easier for new coders to use correctly" and some bots may need to be updated; the posting I link to suggests several seemingly simple fixes. - -sche (discuss) 01:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Missing space in malm[edit]

The wikitext has a space between the context label and the form of template: {{context|colloquial|lang=de}} {{de-verb form of|malmen|1|s|g}}. But the displayed text in the entry does not: (colloquial)First-person singular present of malmen. But the displayed text does have a space here: (colloquial) First-person singular present of malmen. What's going on? I am using Windows and see the issue in Firefox, Opera and Internet Explorer; I can provide more details if others aren't seeing the same issue. - -sche (discuss) 15:58, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. Apparently categories steal preceding spaces: foo [[Category:Sandbox]]bar = foobar. --WikiTiki89 17:47, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
What an interesting problem. Thanks for fixing it. - -sche (discuss) 18:00, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Adjective short form template sought[edit]

What's the right template or template call for Russian adjective short forms? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:25, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

If there is no {{ru-infl of}} or ({{ru-inflection of}}) then {{inflection of}} is the only other option. (Note: if this is not the case we should change that).
благоро́ден is defined as {{inflection of|благородный||m|short|lang=ru}} which produces: masculine short of благородный ‎(blagorodnyj).
But something like this would be shorter (and better?): {{ru-infl of|благородный|short}}. Gender is guessable. --Dixtosa (talk) 13:30, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. After posting the question I tried to rollback my edit, since I find the template but something happened with the rollback but I didn't notice that it wasn't rolled back. I've used it in интересно - {{inflection of|интере́сный||n|s|short form|lang=ru}}. I prefer the more detailed form, since it adds the gender. Ideally there should also be a category for short adjective forms. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:39, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Can we change the way this fucking page works?[edit]

You ever wrote a ten ton block of text which someone edit conflicted into? Then had to rewrite it again, for the same thing to happen once more? Not cool, innit? Is it technically possible that the page be changed so that the text you wrote is not obliterated when a conflict happens? Korn [kʰʊ̃ːæ̯̃n] (talk) 16:43, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

...? Don't you get a page that shows you both the text someone else wrote and your text, such that you can copy-and-paste your text rather than retyping it? (It should say something to the effect of "only the text in the top window will be saved", and if you scroll down, you'll see the diff between your revision and the other one, and then another edit window with your text in it.) - -sche (discuss) 16:54, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
I'll have to check my browser next time I have that trouble. If I should get that window, I've not noticed it in years of editing. Korn [kʰʊ̃ːæ̯̃n] (talk) 18:38, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
If you don't get such a window, let us know, because that would be quite a bug. (In fact, with a little co-ordination we could engineer some edit conflicts e.g. in the WT:SANDBOX for testing purposes]].) Also note Dixtosa's comment, which hilariously got edit-conflicted, that "Every self-respecting desktop browser saves all texts in all text areas of the previous page. So just going back should work." Edit conflicts are still frustrating, but it should be possible to recover any text you lose to them. - -sche (discuss) 18:49, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Going back a page used to work for me in the past, but not today. Though, while trying to make another post on our German talk earlier today I also had my text booted due to "loss of session data", a first time event for me. Does that mean anything to you? Korn [kʰʊ̃ːæ̯̃n] (talk) 23:25, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
It sometimes happens to me that my edit is not saved due to loss of session data. It usually works to try saving it again. —Stephen (Talk) 23:29, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Script flags totally benign edit as "harmful" and "vandalism"[edit]

I just tried to edit "Talk:euphemism" in the following way:

There was a question reading:

Isn't a euphemism something like a [[meiosis]]? At least in the Netherlands, a euhpemism is often considered a antonym of [[hyperbole]] (even my teacher did it). Is it just bad education or is true? [[User:Mallerd|Mallerd]] 19:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I changed that to:

Isn't a euphemism something like a [[meiosis]]? At least in the Netherlands, a euhpemism is often considered a antonym of [[hyperbole]] (even my teacher did it). Is it just bad education or is true? [[User:Mallerd|Mallerd]] 19:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:It is true in the sense, that a euphemism is a meiosis of 'badness' or 'evilness'. - A special case of meiosis, if you will. --~~~~

in order to answer that question. And I gave the following summary in the summary field:

"meiosis <--> euphemism explained."

The system will not let me save this edit, but instead shows the following warning message:

Warning: This action has been automatically identified as harmful. Unconstructive edits will be quickly reverted, and egregious or repeated unconstructive editing will result in your account or IP address being blocked. If you believe this action to be constructive, you may submit it again to confirm it. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: probably vandalism. If you believe your edit was flagged in error, you may report it on the Wiktionary:Grease pit.

I can not understand how my contribution could be construed to be vandalism. - Please explain, or fix the script so that it doesn't accuse innocent, well-meaning people, who just want to help as vandals. :-( - So I am following the advice the warning message gave, and report it here.

Perhaps I should add, that I wanted to improve the euphemism and dysphemism pages by respectively synchronizing the "Examples" sections, but now am afraid of doing so, because I anticipate, that my effort will be in vain.

Respectfully, but saddened, -- 11:02, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure why your edit was flagged as harmful, but it seems all you had to do was re-submit it. --WikiTiki89 12:38, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I tried that about half a dozen times, initially, suspecting just a 'hickup' somewhere. Then I tried changing punctuation, and triple-checked w/ the "differences" function, whether I had unintentionally deleted any preexisting text. - Then tried again five minutes later. - Then wrote the above message.
Now (meaning 60 seconds ago) I have tried to save the same change again, and it still doesn't work
Nonetheless I have been able to edit other articles. -- 12:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I figured it out. It is picking up on the word "Hello" earlier on the page (which you didn't even add). @Kephir, can you fix this, since this is your filter? Not everybody who says "hello" is a vandal, anyway. --WikiTiki89 13:14, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, WikiTiki89, for figuring this out. :) - You have made a simple wiktionarian very happy. :) -- 13:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
And, for now, I've commented out the offending "Hello", which should be restored once the filter is removed or revised. You should be able to make your contribution without further problem. I'll be that the filter is interested in "Hello" only for edits by anons. If you were to register (a good idea anyway) and login, I suspect you could even say "hello". DCDuring TALK 14:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I think the fact that the "hello" filter is enabled for discussion pages is just an oversight. It was probably intended just for articles, where many vandals do add things like "hi". --WikiTiki89 14:37, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
@DCDuring: Thanks a lot. - However it's still not working. - Perhaps the filter is also allergic to the words "evilness" or "badness"? - And I have to admit that I do have an account. - I just don't have the credentials at hand right now (neither those for my e-mail), and don't want to create a "sockpuppet" or throw-away-account. - I also thought that this issue might be a stumbling block for very infrequent or first-time users also, or that something might be fundamentally broken. - (And besides: I have to admit that I enjoy editing anonymously once in a while, too.) -- 16:37, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
DCDuring seems to have had undone his changes before you tried it again. This time, just try removing the word "hello" together with your edit and if it succeeds, one of us will add it back. --WikiTiki89 16:54, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I got distracted after checking to see whether I triggered the filter. That would not be likely for whitelisted users et al, but I had to check. DCDuring TALK 17:31, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

What is the point of making a filter private if you are just going to loudly talk over every of its conditions here? Fixed. Not saying how. Keφr 17:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Oops, I didn't think about that... but I didn't really reveal much. Thanks for fixing it. Also, see my addition to the filter notes. --WikiTiki89 18:00, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
To be fair, that filter mostly blocks vandalism by people of the sort which do not even bother to look at edit filters. So it probably matters little. Filters 31 and 32 (and 9, 22, and 23) should be rules-1-and-2-compliant, however. (Replied.) Keφr 18:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Ok thanks. --WikiTiki89 18:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

How to deal with untranslatable English terms?[edit]

if even the closest translation is just too far from being close, I think shorter form of this "this has no equivalent in this language" would add value to the translation table. This will be useful in emptying translation requests-type of categories too. We can make the second parameter of {{t}} optional, or make a new temlate. Maybe {{notrans}}?--Dixtosa (talk) 16:43, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

There’s {{not used}} for a subset of these situations.
If we are to create {{notrans}}, how can we make sure it won’t be misused by people who simply weren’t able to find a translation? — Ungoliant (falai) 17:09, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Not even some kind of circumlocution? Schadenfreude, often considered untranslatable, can be glossed into English as "happiness at another's troubles" (or more wordy expression). DCDuring TALK 17:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

no transliteration necessary in headword line[edit]

Sometimes no transliteration is necessary for a headword. E.g., [[ישב#Etymology 3]]. At some point, {{head}} (well, its underlying module) was edited so that it indicates "transliteration needed" if there's no transliteration. Can someone who knows Lua (I do not) please add in the ability to turn off this message with a template parameter (perhaps tr=[empty string] or a new parameter)? (Pinging Ruakh just because of a conversation we once had.)​—msh210 (talk) 05:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

This can already be done. --WikiTiki89 14:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Ah, thanks.​—msh210 (talk) 18:09, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Why is no transliteration necessary? —CodeCat 18:25, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Not only unnecessary but undesirable, and here's why: There are two different forms there, neither of which is a lemma (nor even such that the other can really be said to be a form of it), and which have different transliterations, which are noted on the definition lines in the manner accepted at WT:T:AHE.​—msh210 (talk) 03:41, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Then they should have separate POS sections and headword lines. —CodeCat 21:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Discussion among the Hebrew editors has led to a conclusion opposite of what you've just put forth. (I can't find the bulk of that discussion, but some early parts of it are at [[User talk:Msh210/Archive/niqqud and excessive spellings, redux]], and the conclusion is mentioned at [[Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2011/June#Separate entries for reflexive verbs?]].) If you wish to argue for your conclusion (which you haven't done here), I invite you to do so at WT:T:AHE, but, for now, that's not the way it's being done.​—msh210 (talk) 16:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

class="vsSwitcher vsClass-pronunciations" no longer working?[edit]

<div class="vsSwitcher vsClass-pronunciations"> does not seem to be working any more, affecting templates such as {{grc-IPA}} and {{zh-forms}} which are now always expanded. Was there an edit that affected this function? Wyang (talk) 01:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I wasn't aware that this was even in use at all. —CodeCat 01:51, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I fixed those two templates now. Are there any more? —CodeCat 01:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! The only other module using it is Module:User:ZxxZxxZ/pronunciation, used by User:ZxxZxxZ/sandbox. Wyang (talk) 02:04, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Please make fixes to Module:languages/data3/a and Module:languages/data3/s[edit]

I don't have administrative privileges.

Could someone (@CodeCat, Wikitiki89, Atitarev etc.) please change the entries for the following languages in Module:languages/data3/a and Module:languages/data3/s to read as follows:

For Module:languages/data3/a:

m["abv"] = {
        canonicalName = "Baharna Arabic",
        otherNames = {"Bahrani Arabic"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Arab"},
        family = "sem-arb",
        entry_name = {
                from = {u(0x0671), u(0x064B), u(0x064C), u(0x064D), u(0x064E), u(0x064F), u(0x0650), u(0x0651), u(0x0652), u(0x0670), u(0x0640)},
                to   = {u(0x0627)}},

m["acq"] = {
        canonicalName = "Ta'izzi-Adeni Arabic",
        otherNames = {"Southern Yemeni Arabic"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Arab"},
        family = "sem-arb",
        entry_name = {
                from = {u(0x0671), u(0x064B), u(0x064C), u(0x064D), u(0x064E), u(0x064F), u(0x0650), u(0x0651), u(0x0652), u(0x0670), u(0x0640)},
                to   = {u(0x0627)}},

m["acw"] = {
        canonicalName = "Hijazi Arabic",
        otherNames = {"Hejazi Arabic", "West Arabian Arabic"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Arab"},
        family = "sem-arb",
        entry_name = {
                from = {u(0x0671), u(0x064B), u(0x064C), u(0x064D), u(0x064E), u(0x064F), u(0x0650), u(0x0651), u(0x0652), u(0x0670), u(0x0640)},
                to   = {u(0x0627)}},

m["aec"] = {
        canonicalName = "Saidi Arabic",
        otherNames = {"Sa'idi Arabic", "Upper Egyptian Arabic", "Upper Egypt Arabic"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Arab"},
        family = "sem-arb",
        entry_name = {
                from = {u(0x0671), u(0x064B), u(0x064C), u(0x064D), u(0x064E), u(0x064F), u(0x0650), u(0x0651), u(0x0652), u(0x0670), u(0x0640)},
                to   = {u(0x0627)}},

m["ars"] = {
        canonicalName = "Najdi Arabic",
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Arab"},
        family = "sem-arb",
        entry_name = {
                from = {u(0x0671), u(0x064B), u(0x064C), u(0x064D), u(0x064E), u(0x064F), u(0x0650), u(0x0651), u(0x0652), u(0x0670), u(0x0640)},
                to   = {u(0x0627)}},

m["avl"] = {
        canonicalName = "Eastern Egyptian Bedawi Arabic",
        otherNames = {"Bedawi Arabic", "Levantine Bedawi Arabic"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Arab"},
        family = "sem-arb",
        entry_name = {
                from = {u(0x0671), u(0x064B), u(0x064C), u(0x064D), u(0x064E), u(0x064F), u(0x0650), u(0x0651), u(0x0652), u(0x0670), u(0x0640)},
                to   = {u(0x0627)}},

m["ayh"] = {
        canonicalName = "Hadrami Arabic",
        otherNames = {"Hadhrami Arabic"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Arab"},
        family = "sem-arb",
        entry_name = {
                from = {u(0x0671), u(0x064B), u(0x064C), u(0x064D), u(0x064E), u(0x064F), u(0x0650), u(0x0651), u(0x0652), u(0x0670), u(0x0640)},
                to   = {u(0x0627)}},

m["ayn"] = {
        canonicalName = "Sanaani Arabic",
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Arab"},
        family = "sem-arb",
        entry_name = {
                from = {u(0x0671), u(0x064B), u(0x064C), u(0x064D), u(0x064E), u(0x064F), u(0x0650), u(0x0651), u(0x0652), u(0x0670), u(0x0640)},
                to   = {u(0x0627)}},

For Module:languages/data3/s:

m["sqr"] = {
        canonicalName = "Siculo-Arabic",
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"None"},
        family = "sem-arb",

m["ssh"] = {
        canonicalName = "Shihhi Arabic",
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Arab"},
        family = "sem-arb",
        entry_name = {
                from = {u(0x0671), u(0x064B), u(0x064C), u(0x064D), u(0x064E), u(0x064F), u(0x0650), u(0x0651), u(0x0652), u(0x0670), u(0x0640)},
                to   = {u(0x0627)}},

m["shu"] = {
        canonicalName = "Chadian Arabic",
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Arab"},
        family = "sem-arb",
        entry_name = {
                from = {u(0x0671), u(0x064B), u(0x064C), u(0x064D), u(0x064E), u(0x064F), u(0x0650), u(0x0651), u(0x0652), u(0x0670), u(0x0640)},
                to   = {u(0x0627)}},

This puts these languages in line with other Arabic spoken languages that use the Arabic script, and adds alternative names in line with Wikipedia (and fixes the family for Siculo-Arabic).


Benwing (talk) 08:42, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

@Benwing Yes check.svg Done. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:06, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
@Atitarev Thanks! Benwing (talk) 08:18, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Undo and thank links in the recent changes?[edit]

Can these two options be added for each change in recent changes? It would be a lot less cumbersome than going to the diff all the time. It might make editors more inclined to use undo instead of rollback too, which is something a few people have complained about. —CodeCat 23:24, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes. How do you know if you should thank or undo without going to the diff? Do you use any inline diff tool?--Dixtosa (talk) 20:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
If one uses "Navigation popups" (called such in Prefs; historically called Lupin popups) one can hover over "diff" links to see them without actually clicking on them and leaving the page one is on. - -sche (discuss) 21:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
There should be a "like" button for every page and edit as well. Wyang (talk) 03:32, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Red "D" delete button no longer works in recent changes[edit]

The patrolling gadget's red "D" delete button no longer works; clicking it displays "notoken: The token parameter must be set". The blue "m" mark-as-patrolled button does work. - -sche (discuss) 00:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Can you point me to the gadget? What's its name? --Dixtosa (talk) 20:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
It's in prefs as "Patrolling enhancements – makes it faster and easier to mark edits as patrolled." Ruakh wrote it. - -sche (discuss) 21:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Edit filter to discourage edits to main WT:TR page[edit]

This has happened several times, albeit mostly from the same user under various IPs. Can we craft an edit filter to stop it? Protecting the page won't work because it affects how users can edit sections of the page (per the commentary in the page protection log). - -sche (discuss) 18:42, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The "Edit" button is hidden on this page (WT:Grease pit) using JS I guess. So, do the same for Tea room and Beer parlour too.--Dixtosa (talk) 20:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Hmmm. Not hidden for me. Sometimes I enjoy having admin privilege, if that's what it is. DCDuring TALK 16:17, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
It is hidden in Vector.--Dixtosa (talk) 16:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
I use Vector. I get a warning banner when the edit frame opens. I have not knowingly done anything to make that happen. DCDuring TALK 17:20, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
And un-hidden for sysops. Keφr 09:08, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Added Special:AbuseFilter/43. Keφr 09:08, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

dump request: English nouns[edit]

Can someone please generate for me a list of all pages (or all ns0 pages) in category:English nouns and all its subcategories except English noun forms and English plurals? (That is, don't exclude something just because it's in English noun forms/plurals, if it's also in category:English nouns or a different subcat; but don't include it just because it's in English noun forms/plurals.) It can be from the most recent dump or from the live version.

I know of no tool that does this — CatScan grabs only [[]] categories, not templatized ones, and the API limits the number of results — and directing me to such a tool would be great instead of doing it for me, if one exists.

Thanks very much. I have to mention that this will be for my personal use rather than for the betterment of enwikt.​—msh210 (talk) 19:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

AWB can do that. Yes 238 thousand is too many but still probably the easiest solution. I have queried Category:Spanish lemmas (38,306 entries) it was pretty waitable. --Dixtosa (talk) 20:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice. I downloaded AWB and attempted the task just for category:English nouns. (I don't see that there's a way to include only some subcats, so I figured I'd do them one by one, though of course it's not ideal.) When it told me "List complete!" and stopped working, the list had but 24998 entries on it (and when I saved the list to a file, the file, too, had only 24998 entries), even though the category reports that it has 238412 entries. (Granted, I omitted non-ns0 pages from the AWN list whereas the category includes them, but that obviously doesn't account for all the difference.) It seems AWB conked out after blockmaker (or doesn't like blockmaking). I don't see anything in w:'s AWB manual about curtailed results. Does anyone have advice on how to make AWB work with large categories, or a non-AWB solution for me?​—msh210 (talk) 21:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
I use Python scripts with Pywikibot for this kind of thing. I could show you how, if you would like that. It takes some learning, but the sky is the limit once you get it. —CodeCat 21:34, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I used to use pywikipediabot (as it was called then IIRC) and stopped when the version I had stopped working and the new version I downloaded wouldn't work either (IIRC). I taught it to myself the first time and can do so again, presumably, but thank you for the offer. On the other hand, if it's really easy to run this script and someone's willing to do so for me….  :-) ​—msh210 (talk) 05:03, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Teach a Wiktionarian to fish, and all that... —CodeCat 13:16, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Maybe this AWB plugin, for large categories w:Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/NoLimits plugin? -- Curious (talk) 18:19, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you.​—msh210 (talk) 06:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
You can also request an account on the Tool Labs to have access to a replicate of the current Wiktionary database. From there you can make any kind of request in SQL to get what you want. This requires to know a bit about command-line and SQL queries though. — Dakdada 13:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestion. However, since, as I said, I'll be using it for my own purposes, it doesn't seem right to request an account there.​—msh210 (talk) 14:51, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
You can pay MW back later, by using your honed skills more directly for project benefit. DCDuring TALK 16:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Actually, I realize that the list of categories I specified above isn't precisely what I need, so, on the off chance that someone is actually thinking of doing this for me, don't. (I'm doing it via pywiki.) But thank you.​—msh210 (talk) 17:29, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
I got as far as putting this Python script together, using the API (it's hard to use the dumps for this, because of the template issue). May or may not be useful; I have always found pywiki somewhat enraging to work with. ;-) -- Visviva (talk) 17:40, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. I myself tried category.py listify -from:English_nouns, but kept getting HTTP 5xx and other errors for reasons unknown to me.​—msh210 (talk) 22:59, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Language code for Dothraki[edit]

We now have two entries derived from this constructed language (Dothraki, the name of the language itself, and Khaleesi, a title used as a girl's name). Should it now have its own language code? Two other constructed languages in Category:English terms derived from constructed languages (Black Speech, Klingon) with just two entries have their own language codes. Maybe "dki?" That doesn't seem to be in use. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 02:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

It's never a good idea to hijack unused codes for languages- they tend to eventually get assigned other languages by the ISO. We would need to create a code starting with "art-", as we did with Black Speech ("art-bsp"). If you're wondering why the code for Klingon isn't like that, it's because it was actually assigned by the ISO. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:33, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Are we even sure it is a constructed language rather than merely a fictional one? Does it exist beyond some staple words? Korn [kʰʊ̃ːæ̯̃n] (talk) 09:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
There isn't much of it in the books, but in the TV series (I believe starting with the second season), they have entire conversations in it. According to Wikipedia, "As of September 2011, the language comprised 3,163 words, not all of which have been made public." I'm not sure how sophisticated the grammar is. --WikiTiki89 14:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
It's a fully functional conlang, and many people other than David Peterson, its creator, are perfectly capable of composing poetry and other extended texts in it. We should certainly have a code, something along the lines of art-dth. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:30, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
It makes sense that they've had to develop Dothraki into a functional language when they're scripting entire scenes in it. There's only so far they could have gone with just writing random exotic-sounding gibberish. I think people are often able to discern structure even when they can't discern meaning; that is, they can tell a foreign language they don't understand from gibberish.
Anyway, I support using "art-dth", "art-dki", or something similar as an internal language code for Dothraki. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 20:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I was thinking "art-dtk", in case we don't have enough suggestions... --WikiTiki89 21:01, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I don’t think we accept any new constructed languages, only the older major ones. For one thing, I believe that Dothraki is copyrighted. See discussion at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2014/July#Inclusion_of_Dothraki. —Stephen (Talk) 09:55, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
It can be put into Module:etymology language/data, then. Keφr 10:18, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
The Beer Parlour discussion above led to a removal of Tolkien's languages and I'm not sure if the idea was right. Weren't they not made as integral part of his literature, but the other way round? He initially was mainly a conlanger who made some literature in his languages, to put them to some use, innit? It seems more useful to me if we just keep all the potentially copyrighted languages until somebody actually complains. We might encounter lenience or even benevolence and even if someone tells us to take it down, then we just take it down and that's that. Or am I missing something? Korn [kʰʊ̃ːæ̯̃n] (talk) 10:41, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
@Stephen - The goal here isn't to create a complete lexicon of Dothraki, only to document Dothraki words that have entered into English. It's clearly within fair use. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 17:52, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Correct. Now the question: should the language code go in Module:etymology language/data (if we're only going to have entries on words that have entered English or other languages), or Module:languages/datax (if we anticipate having a very small appendix of other illustrative words under a de minimus claim). I would think Module:etymology language/data, but it seems all of our art- codes are actually in Module:languages/datax. - -sche (discuss) 18:13, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I have added "art-dtk" to Module:languages/datax; it is not a dialect of any other language, so adding it to Module:etymology language/data would have required users to write e.g. {{etyl|art-dtk|en}} {{m|und|foo}}. Users are expected not to add many words in the language, per the previous discussion. - -sche (discuss) 16:33, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Actually, why not fix Template:mention so that mentions of etymology-only languages could be tagged with the proper language? (No link, just tag with the script and language code.) Keφr 17:29, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Lowercase option for {{wikipedia}} template[edit]

In this discussion, User:Brantmeierz pointed out that the {{wikipedia}} template on zdotu'a links to the wrong page on the Lojban Wikipedia. Page titles on the Lojban Wikipedia are case-sensitive, and because {{wikipedia}} automatically capitalizes the first letter of the title, the link goes to w:jbo:Zdotu'a instead of w:jbo:zdotu'a.

After looking at the template documentation, I can't find a way to address this. I would appreciate it if someone familiar with template syntax could edit the template to add an optional parameter that keeps the title lowercase. Thank you. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:05, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Third person plural past forms of Estonian verbs[edit]

I hope this is the correct place to say this. The third person plural past forms of Estonian verbs are conjugated wrong in Wiktionary. The form is always the same as the second person singular past form. The verb 'to speak' is rääkima in Estonian. If you want to say "they spoke", it is nad rääkisid, but the conjugation table says "rääkisivad" instead of the correct "rääkisid".

The present tense ending for the third person is -vad, but the "va" is dropped when forming the past and also the conditional, which is currently conjugated correctly in Wiktionary. The same way, the -b suffix of the third person singular does not appear in past nor conditional, hence although "s/he speaks" is ta räägib (not *ta rääg) in Estonian, if you want to say s/he spoke, it is ta rääkis and not *ta rääkisib.

Could anyone fix this? The -va- in third person plural past forms of Estonian verbs should be dropped, leaving the same form as second person singular. 15:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

I've fixed it now. I've tried to improve our coverage of Estonian in the past, but I'm not an Estonian speaker so I've had to rely on whatever information I'm able to gather. If you know Estonian well, your help in improving things would be much appreciated! —CodeCat 15:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Need help for sortable table[edit]

Hi, I made a sortable table and I needed to uses some html code to be able to have different background & script colour in headers. But now the arrow are invisible, but I can sort the column... What to do to have them back ?

Also I want to know if it possible to have underline for all the links automatically insides the table without adding "ins" "/ins" or "u" "/u" to each words but with a code in table condition ? Because of the colour of the background the blue of the link is not very visible, so I use "font color""/font" but then we can't see that these terms are link... So I want automatic underline for the link in the table, can someone help ? Thank

Mangêzd (talk) 14:38, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

July 2015

Kott (Yeniseian) conjugation table(s)[edit]

Hi, I added a conjugation table to at least two Kott language articles a while ago, and now I'm wondering how to replace my wikitext (a raw table) with one or more conjugation templates for the Kott language. Jackwolfroven (talk) 20:05, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I've created {{zko-conj}} and replaced the raw table on afu-ākŋ with the template. Is this what you meant? DTLHS (talk) 20:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, thanks. If I get more information about the language (for example if I learn of regular conjugation classes), may I edit the template? Jackwolfroven (talk) 20:48, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Of course. DTLHS (talk) 20:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Lua error in {{inflection of}} - "pos" is not used[edit]

The {{inflection of}} template no longer accepts the pos parameter: "Lua error in Module:parameters at line 85: The parameter "pos" is not used by this template." See azokhoz. How can I find all Hungarian entries with this error? I'd like to correct them. Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 17:08, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Just wait for the errors to appear. —CodeCat 17:17, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I have no idea where and when they will appear. Which entries? Could you create a category to track it? All Hungarian words that use the {{inflection of}} template and have the pos= parameter. --Panda10 (talk) 17:23, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, the errors are tracked at Category:Pages with module errors. —CodeCat 17:29, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 17:57, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Adding gmy to override_translit in Module:links?[edit]

Anyone OK with or objecting to adding gmy (Mycenaean Greek) to the list of languages where we override the manual translit? I encountered this issue when writing code to remove unnecessary translits. In particular, {{grc-alt}} when passed the parameter |dial=muk passes the resulting translit parameter to {{head|gmy}} instead of {{head|grc}}. Now, grc is in the override list but gmy isn't, so I have to special-case this template. I don't see why there would be any exceptional transliterations required for Linear B. Benwing (talk) 08:46, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I have added gmy to the list of languages where we override the manual transliteration, but we can wait a little more to see if anyone objects. --Vahag (talk) 10:22, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Add to the ranges of Arabic characters in Module:scripts/data[edit]

In Module:scripts/data, the list of characters for Arabic (characters under m["Arab"]) is this monstrosity:


This is hard to understand but if you paste it into Python you get


This is missing the range 08A0-08FF, which is "Arabic Extended A". So a better string might be


You can paste this into Python and you get


which is correct. Can someone update this entry?

Thanks. Benwing (talk) 13:01, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

(NB, if the display looks weird of the second string, and it seems the chars from the first string have gotten jumbled in some strange way, it's because your browser doesn't recognize Arabic Extended A as R2L characters yet.) Benwing (talk) 13:02, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

There is a mistake in your text. U+E8A0 should probably be U+08A0. I also think we should stop maintaining separate scripts, such as fa-Arab, for other Arabic-script languages. --WikiTiki89 13:10, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
I also realize that mistake originates in the official Unicode chart itself and not from you. The correct text is "؀-ۿݐ-ݿࢠ-ࣿﭐ-﷽ﹰ-ﻼ", which I have just added to the module. --WikiTiki89 13:25, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. Didn't notice that mistake, but it's staring right at me now, d'oh ... Benwing (talk) 14:38, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree about the separate scripts like fa-Arab; I don't see the point of them. Benwing (talk) 14:40, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
There are twelve different sub-varieties of the script code Arab. I understand that not every font that supports Arabic-language Arabic script is optimized for, say, Persian-language Arabic script, but is it really the case that all twelve varieties use such different letters that they need different fonts? (Are there any other issues, like different transliterations?) It would seem like we could combine at least some of the sub-varieties. - -sche (discuss) 00:49, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Transliterations are irrelevant because they are handled by language, not by script. The difference is that each of these subvarieties has its own special characters that may not be supported by fonts designed for a different Arabic-script language. But nowadays most fonts do support all of these languages. The other thing is that some languages prefer to write certain characters in slightly different ways. But we don't worry about this in Cyrillic, for example, where the б in Serbian is sometimes displayed differently from the б in Russian, but we still use the same script tag for them (in fact, some fonts will handle these differences automatically if the language is properly tagged). If you take the Latin script as an example, there are tons of languages that use vastly different sets of special characters with different capitalization rules (such as for the ı in Turkic languages) and other quirks, yet they all use the same script tag (although we do have Latnx and Cyrs for certain dead Latin- and Cyrillic-script languages because they are less likely to be supported by mainstream fonts). --WikiTiki89 15:34, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Can we not just write the CSS in a way that it special-cases on the language as well as the script? In MediaWiki:Common.css there are examples like

:lang(vi).Hani { 


.Latn[lang=zh] {
        font-family: inherit;

Benwing (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

I've been told that this is not portable to IE 6 or IE 7. See Wiktionary:Grease pit/2013/November#Language-specific CSS at MediaWiki:Common.css. --WikiTiki89 17:13, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Mistakes in Ancient Greek templates[edit]

I can't figure out who is responsible for maintaining the Ancient Greek entries, but I found a number of mistakes in the template calls, where Greek text occurs in the transliteration field that I would otherwise remove. In general these are cases that should go into the sort field that follows the obsoleted translit field, although maybe the sort field is also unnecessary.

Page 8956 αἰώνιος: WARNING: Value 3=αἰωνιος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-adj-1&2|αἰώνια|αἰώνιον|tr=aiōnios|αἰωνιος}}
Page 9200 θύννος: WARNING: Value 4=θυννος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|θύννου|m|second|θυννος|tr=thunnos}}
Page 9871 χόδανος: WARNING: Value 4=χοδανοσ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|head=χόδᾰνος|χοδάνου|m|second|χοδανοσ}}
Page 11618 σταφυλή: WARNING: Value 4=σταφυλη has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|σταφυλῆς|f|first|σταφυλη|tr=stafulē|cat1=Fruits}}
Page 254 αἰώνιος: WARNING: Value 3=αἰωνιος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-adj-1&2|αἰώνια|αἰώνιον|tr=aiōnios|αἰωνιος}}
Page 2089 ζεῦγμα: WARNING: Value 4=ζευγμα has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|ζεύγματος|n|third|ζευγμα}}
Page 2360 θύννος: WARNING: Value 4=θυννος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|θύννου|m|second|θυννος|tr=thunnos}}
Page 3494 μέδος: WARNING: Value 4=μεδος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|unknown|m|second|μεδος|cat1=Beverages}}
Page 4277 παρῳδία: WARNING: Value 4=παρωδια has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|παρῳδίας|f|first|παρωδια}}
Page 4688 πτερωτός: WARNING: Value 3=πτερωτος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-adj-1&2|πτερωτή|πτερωτόν|tr=pterōtos|πτερωτος}}
Page 5088 σταφυλή: WARNING: Value 4=σταφυλη has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|σταφυλῆς|f|first|σταφυλη|tr=stafulē|cat1=Fruits}}
Page 5873 χαραδριός: WARNING: Value 4=χαραδριος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|χαραδριοῦ|m|second|χαραδριος|cat1=Birds|tr=kharadrios}}
Page 5906 Χέοψ: WARNING: Value 4=Κheops has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-proper noun|Χέοπος|m|third|Κheops}}
Page 5935 χόδανος: WARNING: Value 4=χοδανοσ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|head=χόδᾰνος|χοδάνου|m|second|χοδανοσ}}

Benwing (talk) 03:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. All but one of them were mine, mostly dating back to when I was still learning how to use the templates. At μέδος ‎(médos), I wish I could get it to say that the genitive is unknown, rather than indeclinable (It looks like it should be a straightforward second-declension noun, though). My workaround must have worked when I did it, but the template has changed completely since then. As for the sort field: it is unnecessary, though there may be an exception or two I don't know about. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:12, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


This junky template still makes use of manual translit rather than auto-transliterating the Greek text. If someone (e.g. CodeCat) wants to fix this up, please be my guest. Benwing (talk) 03:10, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

please make changes to Module:languages/data3/x for Andalusian Arabic[edit]

m["xaa"] = {
        canonicalName = "Andalusian Arabic",
        otherNames = {"Andalusi Arabic", "Moorish Arabic", "Spanish Arabic"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Arab"},
        family = "sem-arb",
        entry_name = {
                from = {u(0x0671), u(0x064B), u(0x064C), u(0x064D), u(0x064E), u(0x064F), u(0x0650), u(0x0651), u(0x0652), u(0x0670), u(0x0640)},
                to   = {u(0x0627)}},

Thanks. Benwing (talk) 10:59, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

@Benwing Yes check.svg Done. Keep up the good work. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:17, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
We should just make Benwing an admin... - -sche (discuss) 00:52, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, totally. Sorry for not getting around to nominate him. He is a great asset to Wiktionary, not just as an editor but as an admin, I'm sure. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:15, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Not that I have any reason to distrust Benwing in particular, but I think this project has enough admins, actually. Keφr 18:16, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't need admin privileges but I'd like to be able to edit certain module pages that are currently locked, without having to bug others to do it. CodeCat in particular has not been very responsive recently to requests I've made. Benwing (talk) 07:52, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

abusefilter-warning-ref-no-references getting triggered incorrectly?[edit]

My bot is getting an error on Thule:

ERROR: editpage: abusefilter-warning-ref-no-references
Hit AbuseFilter: ref no references, 
WARNING: Page [[Thule]] not saved
Page 25 Thule: Error

I tried a manual save and I don't hit the abuse filter. The page does have <ref> without <references/> but instead it has {{reflist}}, which seems to do the same thing. This suggests something is wrong with the filter. Benwing (talk) 23:32, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Some Wikipedian used a Wikipedia template when they should have just used <references/>... - -sche (discuss) 00:54, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I remember deleting that template, back when it did something else. Since it is pointless and causes problems like this, I think it should be speedied and salted. Or replaced with something along the lines of "Just use <references/> directly, you idiot", following {{helpme}}. Keφr 18:18, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

{{head}} doesn't pay attention to override_translit[edit]

Why not? There are a couple of cases, in particular in Ͷ and ͷ where it potentially might make sense to allow overridden translits of Ancient Greek, but in general it seems really hacky to have {{head}} allow overriding langs with override_translit -- it goes against the whole purpose of override_translit and makes it risky to remove manual translits in {{head}}. In these two cases a better idea would be to use |tr=- and manually write the translit afterwards. Benwing (talk) 23:43, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Wouldn't this issue affect not just Ͷ and ͷ, but any words spelled with them? I presume such words are attested. Or do we have a policy of "normalizing" the spelling/encoding of words which contain such allographs the way we normalize words from old books that have long s, superscript-e-umlauts, c-t ligatures and some other things? - -sche (discuss) 00:58, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
But, to follow up on this thought, then any links to such words would be affected as much as the entries' {{head}}s, so the solution would be to turn off the overriding of manual transliteration for Greek (iff we don't have a better way of handling entries with Ͷ and ͷ). {{head}} should override manual transliterations to the same extent as other templates. - -sche (discuss) 15:45, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I strongly agree that {{head}} should override manual translit for languages in override_translit. --Vahag (talk) 09:56, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't think there are any words that have Ͷ or ͷ in them. I'm not sure if it makes sense to turn off override_translit for Ancient Greek just to handle these particular cases. Benwing (talk) 07:58, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Well override_translit is just a workaround to make sure all transliterations are standardized before we remove all the manual ones. Once we remove all the manual transliterations, we can remove override_translit and then be able to use manual transliterations for exceptional cases. --WikiTiki89 17:15, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
I have a bot to remove the translits but haven't finished, partly because there's an issue with long ā ī ū existing in the translit but not in the Ancient Greek itself, when the underlying vowel is long. My partial run already removed many such cases but I'm thinking of putting them back. There is a list of such cases in my user space; see the comments in my talk page under the entry for Ͷ/ͷ. Ideally the Greek should be canonicalized to include the long marks, based on the translit. There are two ways to do this: Either insert the Greek text with macrons as "alternate display" text or (IMO better and will make a lot of things a lot easier) insert it as the normal text and remove the macrons using a filter, just like we do for Latin. What do you think of implementing such a filter? Benwing (talk) 09:01, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
OK, looks like this is already implemented. Benwing (talk) 10:57, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Category:Pages with broken file links[edit]

There are about 200 Chinese character entries in this category. In many cases (e.g. ), the issue seems to be that {{Han etyl}} expects several pictures and not all of them exist. Can someone adapt the template so users can specify that it shouldn't attempt to display certain pictures (because they don't exist)? In other entries, e.g. 血液循環, the issue is that someone has specified ma=y or the like to tell {{zh-pron}} to display an audio file, but no audio file exists. - -sche (discuss) 01:23, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

@Tooironic, "|ma=y" means an audio file, e.g. Zh-xuěyè xúnhuán.ogg exists but it doesn't. :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:53, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
If those {{Han etyl}} images were hosted in Wiktionary {{#ifexist}} could work. But it seems that {{#ifexist}} does not work with Commons files. :( —suzukaze (tc) 02:07, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Just ignore that brain fart. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:59, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
{{#ifexist:}} works with the Media: namespace, by the way. Keφr 08:18, 10 July 2015 (UTC)


When the parameter "decl" is used in the {{Template:sk-noun}}, the template does not close the brackets at the end. See e. g. chlór#Slovak. Could somebody fix it, please? Thanks very much. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 17:55, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

I updated it to use more features of {{head}}, which also fixed the problem. --WikiTiki89 18:28, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! --Jan Kameníček (talk) 18:30, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Indentation width on module pages[edit]

I thought we made module pages display indentations with a width of four spaces. Now, it seems to have switched back to eight. (See any module page for an example, but for convenience, I will link Module:en-headword.) --WikiTiki89 21:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

In case it's just me, I'm using the latest version of Google Chrome (43.0.2357.132) on Windows 7. Also, the tab-size properties in MediaWiki:Common.css are still set to 4. --WikiTiki89 21:24, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
This should be changed, but I think we should also try to make the syntax highlighting match between the view page and the edit page. —CodeCat 21:35, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't see this and I'm using exactly the same version of Chrome on Mac OS X 10.9. Benwing (talk) 05:35, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Either Kephir fixed it here, or it randomly started working again today. --WikiTiki89 17:18, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Keφr 20:02, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Issues with Template:der3[edit]

This unpleasant template has display issues, that I've seen a few times:

1. It does not allow a collapsible box header, but simply plops a duplicate "Derived terms" below the "Derived terms" header that is already present.

2. It incorrectly displays some terms. Look at orange#Derived_terms, where "satsuma" orange displays as "atsuma orange", "sour orange" as "our orange", and "sweet orange" as "weet orange".

If this template were gone, I wouldn't miss it even a little bit. -- · (talk) 04:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

1, yes it does, read the documentation, 2 is fixed. DTLHS (talk) 04:48, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
It is a very useful template. I would miss it a lot if it were gone. @DTLHS, was transliteration disabled at some point? --Vahag (talk) 22:02, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I have added them back. DTLHS (talk) 22:13, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Red links/black links[edit]

How do I make a link appear like normal black text unless it links to a page that exists, then display it normally? Like it is in conjugation boxes? I wanted to do it here. WurdSnatcher (talk) 14:44, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Use class="inflection-table". For example: lolol, kjgkhvyf. — Ungoliant (falai) 14:50, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Awesome, thank you! WurdSnatcher (talk) 14:57, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Although that will make the CSS class name rather non-indicative... what are you trying to do anyway? Keφr 14:59, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
I wanted to make a glossary format like this, which has links to citations pages for all of the words. That way the list can be expanded and new citations added to the citations page, and when there are enough to make a page for it, the link will be there automatically. WurdSnatcher (talk) 15:04, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Broken link in Appendix:Unicode/Basic Latin[edit]

Please someone fix the broken link in Appendix:Unicode/Basic Latin:
"U+002F" (SOLIDUS) should link to / but links to Appendix:Unicode/Basic Latin/.
When you type [[/]]] it links to the current page+slash, so I believe the actual link should be [[&#47;]], but I'm not very good at editing Lua yet to do the change in Module:character list myself. Thanks. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 18:59, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

[[:/]] also works; I used that. Thanks. Keφr 19:07, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Ruby print should be closer to kanji characters, although this is not a problem in mobile view[edit]

Ruby print should be closer to kanji, although this is not a problem in mobile view. This is especially the case with larger fonts and I wish this could be fixed. I would think this would be an easy fix since the spacing between ruby print and kanji is perfect for both large and small font sizes when viewing the mobile version of pages. For a good example of this, please see Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible and then compare it with the mobile version of the page. This does not appear to be a browser related issue. 馬太阿房 (talk) 21:52, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I wonder whether this might be a font-related issue. When I look at the ruby print in Appendix:Gikun Usage in Meiji Version of Japanese Bible, it looks fine to me. —Stephen (Talk) 23:53, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Did you compare with mobile view? 馬太阿房 (talk) 04:48, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
No. I don’t have a mobile device. —Stephen (Talk) 10:30, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
This is what I see on my laptop and iPad - look pretty much the same. Keith the Koala (talk) 11:41, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
That’s how mine looks (laptop). —Stephen (Talk) 11:54, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the screenshots. I see you are using Firefox with “gothic” font on your laptop and similar font on ipad. It does appear to be a font issues after all. I agree that the spacing between Kanji and ruby print doesn't look bad on your laptop. What is the name of the font your Firefox browser is using? I've tried different fonts with my Chrome browser and even the gothic ones have lots of space between Kanji and ruby. IE seems to have the same issue. 馬太阿房 (talk) 07:59, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Keith, your Firefox screenshot convinced me to download Firefox for my personal computer. Happy to say that now the spacing between kanji and ruby print is perfect. Thanks again. By the way, it was definitely an IE and Chrome issue and not a font issue, because I see that with Firefox, even using the exact same fonts as I was using with IE and Chrome, the spacing is perfect.馬太阿房 (talk) 02:51, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Oldest and newest requests to categories[edit]

Can someone please add oldest and newest request (10 each) to {{poscatboiler}}, similar to {{trreqcatboiler}}? I tried but didn't succeed.

Reason: I want to track definitionless entries, e.g. in Category:Korean entries needing definition I want to see the newest and the oldest ones. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:36, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

"plural of" template[edit]

This template has been altered to read "plural of" instead of "plural form of". I have been using it for the plural form of Norwegian adjectives - there is no template for "plural form of" however. So what's the solution - "form of|plural form|-"? Admittedly a roundabout way of doing it, or can a new template be created? Donnanz (talk) 09:50, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Just use {{plural of}}? —CodeCat 18:18, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
No, that won't do - I'm talking about plural forms of adjectives, not the plural of nouns. There's a difference. Donnanz (talk) 20:00, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Why won't it do? I don't see the problem, we use {{plural of}} for adjectives all over the place. —CodeCat 20:03, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Obviously I'm not going to convince you. I'll have to resort to using the roundabout method. Donnanz (talk) 20:19, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Why do you have to be so contrary? Other editors have had this problem with you before; if things don't work your way, you look for all kinds of bad workarounds. —CodeCat 21:05, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Something was accomplished in that thread a year ago. As for being contrary, well, I like accurate descriptions, and the alteration to the template amounts to oversimplification in my opinion. Besides that, I have kept my head below the parapet for some months. I can't be criticised for that, can I? Donnanz (talk) 22:06, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
All that has happened is that {{plural of}} was made to display the same thing as {{inflection of|...||p}}. I can't think of a reason why they should show different things when they mean the same thing. —CodeCat 22:43, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Second opinion, anyone? Donnanz (talk) 23:13, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Even {{plural form of}} is redirected to {{plural of}}, so I can't win. That template is locked, so nobody can change it even if they want to. So "bad workarounds", even though I don't like them, are the only solution I'm afraid. Donnanz (talk) 13:24, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Or you could just use {{plural of}} like everyone else. —CodeCat 13:43, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
@Donnanz: Please explain why you think "plural of" doesn't make sense for adjectives. You can't expect people to take your side if you don't even explain yourself. --WikiTiki89 13:59, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
As I have already tried to explain above, that is what they are, plural forms of adjectives; {{plural of}} is adequate for simple noun plurals, as in English. This template cannot be used for Norwegian nouns, as there are indefinite and definite forms, so I use {{inflection of}} for those. I used to use that template for definite singular noun forms too, but found that {{definite of}} reading "definite singular of" works well for both those and the definite singular of adjectives (so please don't ever change the wording of that template!). Although thinking about it, definite singular forms and plural forms of adjectives could be merged into one template ("definite singular and plural form of") as they are invariably the same in both Norwegian and Danish, instead of putting them on two lines as at present. No problem with {{neuter singular of}} for the neuter form of adjectives. Adjectives which don't change form are easily catered for by simply adding "indeclinable". Donnanz (talk) 16:37, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't understand your point. How is the meaning of "plural form of" different from "plural of"? --WikiTiki89 17:03, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Our definition of "plural", and that of Chambers, do not say "only applies to nouns". To talk of the plural of an adj is fine. Equinox 19:39, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, to talk of the "plural of" an adjective is fine. (And I fail to see how "plural of" could possibly be problematic without the synonymous but longer "plural form of" being equally problematic.) Merriam-Webster agrees that "plural" can refer to more than just nouns (it has usexes of "plural noun" and "plural verb"), as does Dictionary.com (which makes reference to plural pronouns besides plural nouns), and Oxford Dictionaries (which makes reference to plural nouns, pronouns, and verbs). At Ngrams, "plural of the adjective" was more common than "plural form of the adjective" until about 15 years ago, and it's still about half as common. - -sche (discuss) 19:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Well, those stats show that I'm half-right, not completely wrong. Donnanz (talk) 08:30, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
No, they show that you are "completely wrong" about "plural of an adjective" being wrong, because if it were wrong, the ratio could not have possibly come even close to 1/2. --WikiTiki89 12:49, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
A predictable retort. Donnanz (talk) 14:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Svan entries[edit]

Hi. Is it better to include the combining characters such as "combining caron" (U+030C) and "combining dieresis" (U+0308) in the actual title of a Svan entry or should I put such characters only in the {{head}} template? Usage of combining characters are necessary because we do not have unicode Georgian letters with circumflex accents, diaereses or carons. On one hand, putting combining characters in the title of the page causes stuff like this, but on the other — there is no such word as ფაქუ in Svan (i.e., without a circumflex accent on ) and needless to say =/= უ̂. What should I do here? Sorry if this is an extremely nooby question, but I have to ask this. --Simboyd (talk) 18:02, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with using combining characters in page titles if the precomposed characters don't exist in Unicode (yet). The only time to leave diacritics out of page titles but include them in the headword line is if such diacritics aren't normally found in printed texts but are encountered only (or primarily) in pedagogical texts like dictionaries, grammar books, readers for children and language students. If Svan texts always include these diacritics, then they should be part of the page title. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
I completely agree and that is exactly what I tried to do for this word as well, but as you can see combining characters have glitches when applied on Georgian unicode characters. Should I just ignore this then? --Simboyd (talk) 20:58, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
From what I have seen, Svan uses უ, უ̄, უ̈, უ̄̈ ‎(u, ū, ü, ṻ). The problem is not the diacritics, but whether the font was designed to include Svan text. Georgian font designers do not make provisions for these diacritics, since Georgian does not use them, but a font designer can easily adjust the font to display the diacritics correctly over Georgian letters. Therefore, you just need fonts that are intended for Svan, such as TITUS Cyberbit Basic. —Stephen (Talk) 23:24, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

We have the same problem with Armenian dialects. Until today I was stripping diacritics from the links and not including them in the page title, but now I think the diacritics should be included however ugly they look. The only problem is that searching for կյազար does not find կյա̈զա̈ր ‎(kyäzär). Redirects are a solution, when there is no entry with an identical spelling. --Vahag (talk) 08:19, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Can anyone help fix {{ja-pron}}?[edit]

It seems that this template doesn't handle well some combinations of kana such as ウェ or ティ. Eg: サイバネティックス, スウェーデン, ノルウェー. ばかFumikotalk 10:24, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Fixed: [1]. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 11:58, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Enabling page-specific CSS's[edit]

We have lots of nonmainspace pages that would benefit from styling: they can get prettier or even can load faster. For example, here each line could be 18 characters less and thus load faster.

Also, just above our homey needed exactly this – page-specific css. But instead he ended up using his own template.

Inflection table templates would be easier to style and read. One prominent example is Template:la-decl-adj-table-m+f+n that has three dedicated templates Latincolour1, Latincolour2, Latincolour3.

Also, if we allow this change we would be one step closer to the separation of presentation and markup.

So, I suggest that we enable Extension:CSS. --Dixtosa (talk) 12:51, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Weak support. I don't think it matters that much. --WikiTiki89 12:57, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

  1. It would make it possible to copy other wikiproject's templates. Notably, moving Wikipedia's Navbox here was a hard-work and, eventually, resulted in an unmaintainable template.--Dixtosa (talk) 13:22, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  2. We would be going to be able to use pseudo-classes.
  3. We would be able to reduce the size of MediaWiki:Common.css and leave only truly cross-language styles to it.
    concrete example: 20 lines of CSS used by {{zh-hanzi-box}}. Wouldn't it be wiser to put the CSS in the template? Non Chinese entries would load faster
    We also have {{shortcut}}, Russian inflection-table classes, "Tabbed Languages support" (which I haven't enabled) etc.--Dixtosa (talk) 18:04, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
  • {{Navbox}} should be deleted; we have other conventions for navigation templates. Inflection tables should have inline styles replaced by CSS classes common across languages (harmonising their styles in the process). And if you do that, the whole need for this extension should disappear. I think you will have a hard time convincing the WMF to install this extension here anyway. Keφr 18:47, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
    What conventions? I can image this here. But this was what I got when I copied it. Also, I had to go through a lot of trouble when I copied User_scripts from Wikipedia.
    Inflections tables need not be harmonized. Even if they do this does not contradict with the installation of the extension.
    What about pseudo-classes? I actually thought maybe {{character info/new}} could enlarge the character (class "character-sample") on :hover. That would make it possible to see every little stroke of a letter.
    Yeah, thanks to you and Wikitiki now I stand no chance of being taken seriously on Phabricator.
    Anyways, if there's an interest this could be implemented without WMF people. One little addition to Mediawiki:Common.js can make this work. OMG, I can't contain myself - the sexyness of my inflection tables is overwhelming --Dixtosa (talk) 14:06, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
    • See {{list:Gregorian calendar months/en}} for an example. Loading CSS by JavaScript is awful enough when LiquidThreads does it. This should absolutely not be done to entries. —Keφr 14:39, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Errors in Ancient Greek or translit[edit]

My bot produced the following errors when trying to match up ("match-canonicalize") Ancient Greek and Latin, transferring macrons and breves from one to the other and then removing the manual transliteration if it's the same as the automatic one. (Note, these are all entries where the Latin translit has a macron over a, i or u.) Can one of the people working on Ancient Greek fix up these entries? Thanks.

Page 8 Amilcare: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Ἀμίλκας (Hamilkās): Unable to match Greek character Α at index 1, Latin character H at index 0: {{term|Ἀμίλκας|lang=grc|tr=Hamilkās}}
Page 22 Areopagite: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Ἀρεοπαγίtης (areiopagītēs): Unable to match Greek character ο at index 4, Latin character i at index 3: {{term|Ἀρεοπαγίtης|tr=areiopagītēs|lang=grc}}
Page 29 Dioscuri: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Διόσκουροι (Dióskūroi): Unable to match Greek character ο at index 6, Latin character u at index 6: {{term|Διόσκουροι||the youths of [[Zeus]]|tr=Dióskūroi|lang=grc}}
Page 60 Promm: m.2: NOTE: Unable to match-canon προῦμνον (prū́mnon): Unable to match Greek character ο at index 2, Latin character u at index 2: {{m|grc|προῦμνον|tr=prū́mnon}}
Page 87 areopagites: term.2: NOTE: Unable to match-canon ἀρειοπαγῑ́tης (areiopagītēs): Encountered non-Greek (?) character t at index 12: {{term|ἀρειοπαγίtης|ἀρειοπαγῑ́tης|tr=areiopagītēs|lang=grc}}
Page 94 beg the question: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ αἰτεῖσθαι (to en archē aetīsthae): Unable to match Greek character ῃ at index 12, Latin character e at index 10: {{term|τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ αἰτεῖσθαι|tr=to en archē aetīsthae||to assume from the beginning|lang=grc}}
Page 134 filatelie: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon ἀτέλεια (atelīa): Unable to match Greek character ε at index 6, Latin character i at index 4: {{term|ἀτέλεια|lang=grc|tr=atelīa}}
Page 194 petitio principii: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ αἰτεῖσθαι (to en archē aetīsthae): Unable to match Greek character ῃ at index 12, Latin character e at index 10: {{term|τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ αἰτεῖσθαι|tr=to en archē aetīsthae||to assume from the beginning|lang=grc}}
Page 195 philately: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon ἀτέλεια (atelīa): Unable to match Greek character ε at index 6, Latin character i at index 4: {{term|ἀτέλεια|lang=grc|tr=atelīa}}
Page 243 πῶυ: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon पायु (pāyú): Encountered non-Greek (?) character प at index 0: {{term|sc=Deva|पायु|tr=pāyú||guard, protector|lang=grc}}
Page 310 ܡܛܪܐ: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon μήρτα (mḗtrā): Unable to match Greek character ρ at index 3, Latin character t at index 4: {{term|μήρτα|tr=mḗtrā|lang=grc}}
Page 324 Ἀσία: grc-proper noun.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Ἀσία (Asiā/Āsiā): Unable to match trailing Latin character / at index 5: {{grc-proper noun|Ἀσίας|f|first|Asiā/Āsiā}}
Page 411 μάτηρ: grc-noun.head: NOTE: Unable to match-canon μᾱ́τηρ (mātēr): Encountered non-Greek (?) character & at index 3: {{grc-noun|ματρός|f|third|mātēr|head=μᾱ́τηρ}}
Page 590 ἐκπίνω: grc-verb.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon ἐκπίνω (pī́nō): Unable to match Greek character ε at index 1, Latin character p at index 0: {{grc-verb|tr=pī́nō}}
Page 665 Κωκυτός: grc-noun.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Κωκυτός (kōkūtos): Unable to match Greek character Κ at index 0, Latin character k at index 0: {{grc-noun|κωκυτοῦ|m|second|kōkūtos}}
Page 725 δράματα: head.head: NOTE: Unable to match-canon δρᾱ́μᾰτᾰ (''drāmata''): Unable to match Greek character δ at index 0, Latin character ' at index 0: {{head|grc|noun form|head=δρᾱ́μᾰτᾰ|tr=''drāmata''|g=n}}
Page 768 Ἀσιανός: grc-noun.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Ἀσιανός (Asiānos/Āsiānos): Unable to match trailing Latin character / at index 8: {{grc-noun|Ἀσιανοῦ|m|second|Asiānos/Āsiānos}}
Page 809 Βρετανία: grc-proper noun.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Βρετανία (Brettaniā): Unable to match Greek character α at index 4, Latin character t at index 4: {{grc-proper noun|Βρεττανίας|f|first|Brettaniā}}
Page 850 Μαικήνας: grc-proper noun.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Μαικήνας (Malakās): Unable to match Greek character ι at index 2, Latin character l at index 2: {{grc-proper noun|Μαικήνα|m|first|Malakās}}
Page 853 Μεσσάλας: grc-proper noun.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Μεσσάλας (Messalā): Unable to match trailing Greek character ς at index 8: {{grc-proper noun|Μεσσάλα|m|first|Messalā}}

Benwing (talk) 09:03, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg DoneAɴɢʀ (talk) 20:03, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! Benwing (talk) 05:11, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

More Ancient Greek bot issues[edit]

Warnings about missing smooth-breathing signs. I've tried to remove all the ones that were bogus.

Page 11 Appendix:Proto-Germanic/anhulǭ: term.1: WARNING: Text αγκύλᾱ may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 19 Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/stéh₂-: l.2: WARNING: Text έστᾱ may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 78 Wiktionary:Requested entries (Ancient Greek): term.1: WARNING: Text Άρβανον may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 78 Wiktionary:Requested entries (Ancient Greek): l.2: WARNING: Text Όσροηνῆ may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 248 Ἠλί: lang.2: WARNING: Text Ηλι may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 249 Ἡλί: lang.2: WARNING: Text Ηλι may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 534 Τίρυνς: lang.2: WARNING: Text Ᾰ Ε Ῐ Ο Ῠ may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 534 Τίρυνς: lang.2: WARNING: Text Ᾱ ΕΙ Ῑ ΟΥ Ῡ may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 669 Λαέρτης: term.1: WARNING: Text ειρειν may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 1188 ἐπιχαιρεκακία: lang.2: WARNING: Text [[w:Aristotle|Αριστοτέλης]], ''[[w:Nicomachean Ethics|Ηθικά Νικομάχεια]]'' may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 1188 ἐπιχαιρεκακία: lang.2: WARNING: Text [[w:Aristotle|Αριστοτέλης]], ''[[w:Nicomachean Ethics|Ηθικά Νικομάχεια]]'' may be missing a smooth-breathing sign

Benwing (talk) 09:16, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done except for the ones at Τίρυνς ‎(Tíruns), which I consider a false positive. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
@Benwing: I agree with Aɴɢʀ about the issue with Τίρυνς ‎(Tíruns); surely WingerBot should only flag the need for a psile or dasia in tranclusions of {{m}} or {{l}}, not {{lang}}, right? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:36, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Well, it currently flags every Greek word it processes, regardless of template; that's why I didn't automatically fix up the words. Benwing (talk) 04:17, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with it looking inside {{lang}} too; the issue at Τίρυνς ‎(Tíruns) is simply that the vowels are being used to refer to their sounds in any position in a word; they're not being used as words. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:06, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Greek editors, please check the 09:38 Jul 15 changes for User:WingerBot[edit]

@Chuck Entz, I'm so meta even this acronym, ObsequiousNewt, JohnC5, Saltmarsh I ran about 10 entries for my bot to transfer macrons from Latin to Greek. They are dated 09:38, July 15 2015, currently the latest entries. I'm pretty sure they are done correctly but I'd like some of you to give them a once-over just to make sure before I fix all the rest. Thanks. Benwing (talk) 09:47, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

They look right. It could be nice to also modify the genitive for {{grc-noun}} and {{grc-proper noun}} but I can understand that being difficult to code in. —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 16:21, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
@Benwing: Yes, all eleven of those look spot-on. Well done. :-)  — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:26, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! @ObsequiousNewt I looked at fixing up the genitive but concluded it's too much work to do automatically. I assume there are third-declension nouns where the vowel length actually changes between nom and gen (maybe σῦς?), and even in just the first and second declensions there are bunches of special cases because of the way the accent can move or change its nature between nom and gen, and the inflection templates need to be done as well, etc. What I'm going to do is make a page containing all the nouns fixed up, and maybe eventually someone can go through them manually. Benwing (talk) 04:22, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
OK, I put the list of pages needing to be done here: User:Benwing/grc-need-long-vowels. There are 885 templates listed, although not all need to be done. Benwing (talk) 05:05, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Wiktionary:About Spanish/Todo/Spanish nouns without inflection templates[edit]

Would someone be able to regenerate this Spanish cleanup list? --A230rjfowe (talk) 22:46, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Changes needed for grc for Module:languages/data3/g[edit]

Can someone please make the following change to Module:languages/data3/g? The entry should properly read

m["grc"] = {
        canonicalName = "Ancient Greek",
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"polytonic", "Cprt"},
        family = "grk",
        ancestors = {"grk-pro"},
        translit_module = "grc-translit",
        sort_key = {  -- Keep this synchronized with el, cpg, pnt
                from = {"[ᾳάᾴὰᾲᾶᾷἀᾀἄᾄἂᾂἆᾆἁᾁἅᾅἃᾃἇᾇᾱ]", "[έὲἐἔἒἑἕἓ]", "[ῃήῄὴῂῆῇἠᾐἤᾔἢᾒἦᾖἡᾑἥᾕἣᾓἧᾗ]", "[ίὶῖἰἴἲἶἱἵἳἷϊΐῒῗῑ]", "[όὸὀὄὂὁὅὃ]", "[ύὺῦὐὔὒὖὑὕὓὗϋΰῢῧῡ]", "[ῳώῴὼῲῶῷὠᾠὤᾤὢᾢὦᾦὡᾡὥᾥὣᾣὧᾧ]", "ῥ", "ς"},
                to   = {"α"                                           , "ε"          , "η"                                                , "ι"                         , "ο"          , "υ"                                , "ω"                                         , "ρ", "σ"}},
        entry_name = {
                from = {"[ᾸᾹ]", "[ᾰᾱ]", "[ῘῙ]", "[ῐῑ]", "[ῨῩ]", "[ῠῡ]", "[" .. MACRON .. BREVE .. "]"},
                to   = {"Α", "α", "Ι", "ι", "Υ", "υ", ""}} ,

Basically, the entry-name conversion needs to have raw macrons and breves in it. The main reason is that there are cases like Ᾱ̆̓σῐ́ᾱ (which should link to Ἀσία but doesn't currently) which can have both macrons and breves on the same letter, indicating that the vowel can be long or short. Because of the NFC transformation, the macron over the alpha gets converted to a single-char Ᾱ, but the breve above it remains as a combining character. (A secondary reason is that sometimes people incorrectly write things like Ἀ̄̆σῐ́ᾱ with the macron and breve above the smooth-breathing mark instead of below it, where again the macrons and breves remain as distinct combining chars.)

Similar changes need to be made for pnt, cpg, el:

In Module:languages/data3/p:

m["pnt"] = {
        canonicalName = "Pontic Greek",
        otherNames = {"Pontic"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"polytonic", "Latn", "Cyrl"},
        family = "grk",
        translit_module = "grc-translit",
        sort_key = {  -- Keep this synchronized with el, grc, cpg
                from = {"[ᾳάᾴὰᾲᾶᾷἀᾀἄᾄἂᾂἆᾆἁᾁἅᾅἃᾃἇᾇᾱ]", "[έὲἐἔἒἑἕἓ]", "[ῃήῄὴῂῆῇἠᾐἤᾔἢᾒἦᾖἡᾑἥᾕἣᾓἧᾗ]", "[ίὶῖἰἴἲἶἱἵἳἷϊΐῒῗῑ]", "[όὸὀὄὂὁὅὃ]", "[ύὺῦὐὔὒὖὑὕὓὗϋΰῢῧῡ]", "[ῳώῴὼῲῶῷὠᾠὤᾤὢᾢὦᾦὡᾡὥᾥὣᾣὧᾧ]", "ῥ", "ς"},
                to   = {"α"                                           , "ε"          , "η"                                                , "ι"                         , "ο"          , "υ"                                , "ω"                                         , "ρ", "σ"}} ,
        entry_name = {
                from = {"[ᾸᾹ]", "[ᾰᾱ]", "[ῘῙ]", "[ῐῑ]", "[ῨῩ]", "[ῠῡ]", "[" .. MACRON .. BREVE .. "]"},
                to   = {"Α", "α", "Ι", "ι", "Υ", "υ", ""}} ,

In Module:languages/data3/c:

m["cpg"] = {
        canonicalName = "Cappadocian Greek",
        otherNames = {"Cappadocian"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"polytonic"},
        family = "grk",
        translit_module = "grc-translit",
        sort_key = {  -- Keep this synchronized with el, grc, pnt
                from = {"[ᾳάᾴὰᾲᾶᾷἀᾀἄᾄἂᾂἆᾆἁᾁἅᾅἃᾃἇᾇᾱ]", "[έὲἐἔἒἑἕἓ]", "[ῃήῄὴῂῆῇἠᾐἤᾔἢᾒἦᾖἡᾑἥᾕἣᾓἧᾗ]", "[ίὶῖἰἴἲἶἱἵἳἷϊΐῒῗῑ]", "[όὸὀὄὂὁὅὃ]", "[ύὺῦὐὔὒὖὑὕὓὗϋΰῢῧῡ]", "[ῳώῴὼῲῶῷὠᾠὤᾤὢᾢὦᾦὡᾡὥᾥὣᾣὧᾧ]", "ῥ", "ς"},
                to   = {"α"                                           , "ε"          , "η"                                                , "ι"                         , "ο"          , "υ"                                , "ω"                                         , "ρ", "σ"}} ,
        entry_name = {
                from = {"[ᾸᾹ]", "[ᾰᾱ]", "[ῘῙ]", "[ῐῑ]", "[ῨῩ]", "[ῠῡ]", "[" .. MACRON .. BREVE .. "]"},
                to   = {"Α", "α", "Ι", "ι", "Υ", "υ", ""}} ,

(NOTE: Updated from previous request; turns out the sort key doesn't need modifications)

Benwing (talk) 18:02, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Wait, hang on, why does the alpha in Ἀσία need a macron/breve? LSJ has it as being short (although long in Ἀσίς, for reasons that are beyond me.) And why does/should Modern Greek have polytonic characters and length marks? —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 22:48, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Well in the pronunciation section of Ἀσία is says "the first vowel is short in prose and long in verse". But my change is for macron/breve combinations in general, irrespective of what's done with this particular entry. As for Modern Greek, I'm not sure why it has the sort key for polytonic characters; I assume it may be to support katharevousa words written in polytonic characters, which Wikipedia says was done until 1981. I assume though that macrons and breves are never needed since Modern Greek doesn't have vowel length, so I've removed my suggested changes for that language. @Atitarev, CodeCat, I'm so meta even this acronym can one of you make the remaining changes? Thanks ... Benwing (talk) 09:48, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
@Benwing: Sorry, but I'm not nearly confident enough with Lua to understand or to make these changes. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 17:02, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Template:JAruby (please remove the space between kanji and okurigana)[edit]

I'm hoping somebody can fix Template:JAruby to remove the small half-space between kanji and okurigana. Would that be possible to do? Maybe a better option would be to allow the user to specify if a half-space is desired. For example, I think some people might like to use a half-space to separate words, but I can't think of any good reason to have a half-space between kanji and okurigana since both together form one word. For example, take 咽喉 (のど) (かわ) . Notice the half-space between 乾 and く as well as between が and 咽喉. The only thing that makes it not look so bad is the fact that the ruby on 乾 forces a little more space between it and が. However, notice how there is significantly more space between 喉 and が and 乾 and く than there is between が and 乾. If it wasn't for the space created between kanji and okurigana, I wouldn't have so much of a problem with the spacing automatically created, were it not for instances like  (すべて)草蔬 (くさ) (an example from a quotation where ruby must be used since it is like that in the original text) where the extra space following the kanji looks even bigger due to more ruby kana above the kanji. It looks even worse when in the context of the complete quoted sentence where spacing appears to be erratic:  (かみ)  (いひ) たまひけるは () (われ) 全地 (ぜんち) (おもて) にある實蓏 (たね) のなる (すべて)草蔬 (くさ) (たね) ある木果 (このみ) () (すべて) () とを汝等 (なんぢら) (あた) ふこれは (なんぢ) らの (かて) となるべし. I also have found that it makes no difference to the spacing whether you put the okurigana into the template or enter it outside of the template.  馬太阿房 (talk) 02:30, 18 July 2015 (UTC)


I would like to ask for adding parameters ma for masculine animate and mi for masculine inanimate gender into the {{Template:cs-noun}}, which is locked. See the discussion. Thanks very much! --Jan Kameníček (talk) 11:41, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I've added m-an and m-in to the list of allowed genders. —CodeCat 13:40, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks very much! I have just noticed that when the parameter "m" is replaced by e.g. "m-in", it stops adding the entry into the Category:Czech masculine nouns. Could this be fixed too? (Or maybe it could add the entry into Category:Czech masculine inanimate nouns instead). --Jan Kameníček (talk) 15:41, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Oops, I forgot that part. It's fixed now. —CodeCat 17:04, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
That's horrible, obviously, since animacy is not gender. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:16, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
"gender" is often used in WT for noun classes, number, etc. So perhaps "gender" is a misnomer and something like "noun property" would be better, but this is the way it is and I don't think it's so horrible. Arabic templates have "genders" like "m-p", for example. Benwing (talk) 07:52, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
It's not just in Wiktionary — in linguistics, animacy and inanimacy are classes of gender (see Grammatical gender); they're the only classes some languages have. (Proto-Indo-European, for example, is thought to have only had 'animate' and 'inanimate' classes until 'animate' split to 'masculine' and 'feminine' and left 'inanimate' as 'neuter'.) Other languages, such as Russian, have 'animate' and 'inanimate' classes as well as, overlapping them, 'masculine' and 'feminine' classes. Of course, linguists (and non-linguists) also at other times refer to just the second of those (the division of words into 'masculine'/'feminine'/'neuter'/'common') as "gender" — polysemy strikes again. One could make a case that it would be better to have separate gender and animacy parameters, but it's not incorrect to combine them.
If {{cs-noun}} were expanded to accept the plural as a parameter (is that a goal?), it'd arguably easier to combine them: {{cs-noun|m-an|whatever-the-plural-is}} would be easier to type than {{cs-noun|m|whatever-the-plural-is|an=an}} or, with the need to remember to insert an empty parameter or filler ? when the animacy is unknown to the person adding the entry, {{cs-noun|m|whatever-the-plural-is}} (which would be parsed, as in {{ru-noun}}, as indicating unknown animacy) would be easier than {{cs-noun|m||whatever-the-plural-is}}. But as it is, {{cs-noun}} is so basic that the biggest argument I see in favour of combining them is simply that it's good for the same information to be input in the same way across similar languages, and m-an etc is how other Slavic languages, like Russian and Slovene and Ukrainian, input such information. - -sche (discuss) 16:51, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
It's also how language-agnostic templates like {{l}} and {{head}} do it, because it's all handled by the same Module:gender and number. Having Czech templates work differently would just be confusing. If it should be changed, it should be changed globally. —CodeCat 17:00, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
@-sche Re: "animacy and inanimacy are classes of gender": Please point me to a specific sentence in the Wikipedia article (W:Grammatical gender) making that claim. I do not find any such sentence there. Ideally, please present me with a source other than Wikipedia making that claim: if the Wikipedia claim is sourced, it should be easy to point to that source. As far as I know, animacy and gender are two distinct grammatical properties, not one being a subproperty of the other. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:12, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Here are a large number of articles at Google Scholar that discuss animate/inanimate as a form of gender. Rand Valentine, a professor of linguistics at the University of Wisconsin, has a website for the grammar of Ojibwe, where animate and inanimate are described as genders. As for the Wikipedia article on Grammatical gender, it says, "Common gender divisions include masculine and feminine; masculine, feminine and neuter; or animate and inanimate". It also says, "Some authors use the term 'grammatical gender' as a synonym of 'noun class'", but some authors do prefer to use the term "noun class" rather than "grammatical gender" for categories unrelated to sex. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:55, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for that. Some of the hits in your search indeed use such phrases as "animate and inanimate gender", some not so. The search google books:gender and animacy finds many occurrences that suggest agreement with my understanding of gender and animacy as being two distinct features; e.g. "Like gender, animacy is lexically encoded and thus inherent in the noun stem", "Person, Gender, and Animacy", "Consider the basic, inherently lexical qualities of animacy and gender", "including gender, number and animacy", "The specific articles distinguish gender, animacy and number, but in a curiously skewed way.", "There are no gender or animacy distinctions in the third person", and "in addition to agreement properties derived from pronouns, such as person, number, gender, animacy, definiteness and so on.". --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:04, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
From information design standpoint, to label the m-f-n distinstion and the an-in distinction using one term "gender" is most unfortunate, since these are two attributes that combine. Obviously, there is not single attribute with the domain {m, f, n, an, in}. There is no question that we are dealing with two attributes here. To encode two attributes using one template parameter seems unfortunate. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:11, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Not unfortunate enough for anyone else to have complained about it before. —CodeCat 19:54, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
@CodeCat: That is not what I recognize as a substantive argument. Am I correct in my impression from the editing history of {{ru-noun}} and Template:ru-noun/documentation that the present use of combined values like m-an or m-in is your making? That is, is it correct that is was your design to create the combinations m-an, m-in, f-an, f-in, m-an, m-in, f, m-an-p, m-in-p, f-an-p, f-in-p, n-p? --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:15, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Before that, we had no way of indicating animacy at all. And plural was indicated as a separate gender, so for example g=m|g2=p for masculine plural. There was no way to say "masculine plural and/or feminine plural". Surely you remember this too. —CodeCat 20:18, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Ok, great. Now can you please fill in the X in "These combinations are better design than a separate attribute for animacy because X"? --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:36, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Because there's no practical reason to separate them, the current setup works well for editors and nobody has expressed a desire to change it. Having separate parameters for gender, number, animacy, noun class etc would just make a mess nobody is asking for. —CodeCat 21:04, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
So there is and was no design reason. Above, there is just a list of things free from substance, like "design is good because nobody has expressed a desire to change it". Impressive. --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:09, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
So what you're really saying that if everyone is happy with it and thinks your proposal is just a solution looking for a problem, then they're just wrong? Maybe you should actually poll people about this. —CodeCat 21:21, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── My personal opinion is that there's nothing wrong with including gender, noun class, animacy, number, etc. overloaded in the "gender" slot, given that Module:gender and number already supports it, that most languages (e.g. Arabic, Russian, various other Slavic languages, etc.) do it this way, and that it's easier to have one parameter rather than multiple, esp. as we need multiple gender parameters to support words that can have multiple genders and/or animacies. I also think overloading gender and number (e.g. "m-p") in the gender slot has been around awhile and it's not CodeCat's doing (although I'm not sure about this), and given that we do this, it seems natural to include animacy as well in the mix. I'd rather not have some languages like Czech have the parameters split while other languages (esp. other Slavic languages) have them combined into the "gender" field. Dan, I think if you really object you should open a discussion of splitting gender, number and animacy into different fields on a general basis; whatever we end up doing it should ideally be consistent across languages. Benwing (talk) 09:57, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

What's my doing is introducing "m-p" as a single gender string. Before it, when genders were still done with templates, there were separate templates for masculine and plural, so to combine them you had to specify them with two separate gender parameters. Like {{head|...|...|g=m|g2=p}}. The gender templates themselves had special code to avoid putting a comma between them. There were no templates for animacy at all, so languages with animacy distinctions were just out of luck. —CodeCat 18:10, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Inflected form variants with Lua[edit]

Is there a way to display form variants separated with a slash, such as variant1/variant2 in a single inflection table generated by Lua? Currently, I have to add two inflection tables to show them. Sometimes it is only a single variant in the accusative case, other times all plural forms are variants. See kapható. --Panda10 (talk) 15:54, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

This is how I did it for Georgian. --Dixtosa (talk) 15:57, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
We do it often for Italian verbs (but with a coma not a slash). See fare for an example. SemperBlotto (talk) 15:59, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I think commas are the usual separator. - -sche (discuss) 16:53, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
It depends. Some tables put extra forms on a new line. The Finnish ones are a notable example. —CodeCat 16:57, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
@CodeCat Would it make sense to include this functionality in module hu-nominals? I'm not sure how flexible the table structure is to include double forms either next to each other or underneath each other. It might not look as nice as now. I noticed that for long words the table size stays the same on opening and a horizontal scroll bar appears on the bottom to allow viewing the plural column. --Panda10 (talk) 17:24, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
The module is already "ready" to handle multiple forms. On line 462 multiple forms are joined together with <br/>, a line break. So all that would need to be done is adding additional forms to the list of forms for a particular form (that sentence is confusing, but how else would I say it?). —CodeCat 17:29, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
It is not clear how this translates to providing new parameters to {{hu-infl-nom}} to make the multiple forms appear. --Panda10 (talk) 21:53, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
That would be the next step. At least the underlying code in the module supports multiple forms, so that's a start. I would need to know which parameters are needed though. —CodeCat 22:04, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
I added the information to the talk page of the template to keep the requests together: Template_talk:hu-infl-nom#New_parameters_to_display_variant_forms. There is also a module error for words ending in -y and incorrect forms for words ending in -ee. Both are described on the talk page. It would be great if you could take a look at them, as well. Thank you! --Panda10 (talk) 13:58, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Redundant/etc. manual translits in talk/user pages?[edit]

I've eliminated pretty much all the manual translits from Greek, Ancient Greek, Armenian, Old Armenian and Georgian because these are "override_translit" languages. But I purposely skipped talk pages, user pages, archive pages, etc. because I wasn't sure it was reasonable to modify these pages. The thing is, now categories like Category:Terms with redundant transliterations/grc and Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones/grc are full of these pages. Is there a way to hide such pages, like is done in Category:Pages with module errors? Or alternatively should I go ahead and remove the manual translits from those pages? Benwing (talk) 10:36, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

I have shamelessly edited others' talkpages to clean hy and xcl. --Vahag (talk) 19:48, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
I think there is no need to edit pages in any namespace other than the main namespace when there is no difference in the output (one may say there aren't many of those so lets get rid of them once and for all, but we will deal with many similar cases in future, we shouldn't constantly seek to fix irrelevant cases). Regarding the categories, we can restrict the categorization to the main namespace only. Also we can keep these categories as they are and create new categories for terms in the main namespace. We can easily detect the namespace in modules, and add the corresponding category. --Z 16:43, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

A user script to easily manage translations to be checked[edit]

I remember there was one once. Where is it? Was that a real thing or just a fantasy?--Dixtosa (talk) 17:05, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Did you mean the Category:Translations to be checked? --Panda10 (talk) 17:22, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
Was it User:Kephir/gadgets/xte? - -sche (discuss) 16:33, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
xte, does not ease moving or even removing a translation. --Dixtosa (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

"Oldest" list in Category:Russian nouns[edit]

The list of oldest articles in Category:Russian nouns is somewhat broken. I edited ГУЛАГ and it should be in the "Newest" section. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 08:16, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

They must be oldest creations, not updated terms. If it's not the case, then it's the database lag. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:17, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
I see. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 10:23, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
It's how long they have been in the category. --WikiTiki89 13:28, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
I changed the list as to display the "oldest" and "newest" entries in the order they were edited (ordermethod=lastedit according to mw:Extension:DynamicPageList (Wikimedia)); which I believe is better. This way, the "oldest" list contains entries more likely to be in need of being updated in some way. A list of "oldest" in the order they were added to the category would be almost always eternally stationary by definition and thus it wouldn't remain very useful after the first time the list is seen. I edited this parameter a few minutes ago, and apparently the oldest/newest are being updated by the system since the entries look random and automatically changing quickly at the moment. I'm going to see if it stabilizes later. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 15:03, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Is there any way to exclude the categories in them? --KoreanQuoter (talk) 15:17, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
I think for "newest", it would be more useful to have the newest additions to the category than the most recently edited. --WikiTiki89 15:38, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Agreed. It allows editors to check the lemma category of a language for any new entries. —CodeCat 15:46, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
That's OK for me. I edited the list accordingly. Only one problem: Category:Russian nouns and other POS categories look fine but Category:Portuguese citations is broken because the list would have to show citations, not entries (i.e., NS 114, not 0). I tried to fix that with a #switch but it is not working. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 16:09, 22 July 2015 (UTC)


It should be noted, that lastedit really sorts by the last time the page was touched. In some cases this is not equivalent to the last edit (for example, this includes permission changes, creation or deletion of linked pages, and alteration of contained templates).

lastedit is not what you think. In fact, it is quite useless. But, I ve found some interesting attributes like

  • offset which enables us to do some paging, but it will be impossible to implement this without js though.
  • created which is way more attractive than caegoryadd from a statistical standpoint. With categoryadd, all the lemmas' categories start from 2012 (this is when lemma categories were invented). --Dixtosa (talk) 20:22, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Adding gloss and gender parameters to Module:Alternative forms[edit]

I am requesting that the functionality of gloss= and g= parameters be added to this module, just like in {{l}} and {{m}}. --Vahag (talk) 16:20, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

What does the module do? —CodeCat 16:22, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
See Template:alter. It is used to show the alternative dialectal forms for languages with numerous dialects (e.g. in նապաստակ ‎(napastak)). The gloss parameter at the moment is needed in բալախ ‎(balax). --Vahag (talk) 16:37, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
What does {{alter}} do that {{l}} doesn't? I see it adds the dialect name, but that can be done in a separate template. --WikiTiki89 17:06, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
{{alter}} eats unstandardized dialect names and spits out standardized ones, linked to Wikipedia. Just that. If that can be done in a separate template, I will be happy to use it together with regular {{l}}. --Vahag (talk) 17:18, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
For now, you can do this: {{l|hy|մուկ}}, {{l|hy|մուկը}} {{alter|hy||տփ}} and add whatever parameters you want. --WikiTiki89 17:35, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll do. That is a simple solution. --Vahag (talk) 17:51, 22 July 2015 (UTC)


Reference lists are by default numbered lists. But by using the liststyle= parameter in {{reflist}} one can control how the list is rendered. See w:Template:Reflist#List_styles. Why doesn't {{reflist|liststyle=square}} work in բալախ ‎(balax)? --Vahag (talk) 18:46, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Because Wiki's reflist does not work too. I don't think it is too important. --Dixtosa (talk) 19:44, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
It does work in Wikipedia. We have probably failed to import some bits of the infrastructure. --Vahag (talk) 10:31, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
They do it with an awful CSS override. Why do that anyway? It destroys the association between superscripts and items in the list. Not everyone can rely on hyperlinks being there. —Keφr 11:15, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Ok. Is there a way to make the reference list in բալախ ‎(balax) less ugly? Now the list is a mix of numbered and non-numbered items. We should probably allow a ===Notes=== section in addition to ===References===, and gather the numbered references there. This is what Wikipedia does. --Vahag (talk) 12:03, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Links in changelog summaries aren't having diacritics removed[edit]

Something I noticed, e.g. in the recent WingerBot changelog summary for 99 percent -- links to foreign words in the summaries don't have diacritics removed, like they normally do. Presumably this can't be fixed without changes in the MediaWiki software? Benwing (talk) 22:47, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't think so. You could, however, hide the edit summaries, but that is usually done for vandalism and the like. --WikiTiki89 13:51, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Are two line emoticons supported?[edit]

I have seen some emoticon combos that take two lines. May such a thing as that be possible in a title, here? Pandeist (talk) 00:33, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

No, but they could probably go in Appendix:Unsupported titles if attested. DTLHS (talk) 03:45, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, and IIRC we do know how to force a two-line display, because we did it for 〳〵 until we just redirected that entry. So, actually, the answer to Pandeist's question is "yes". - -sche (discuss) 15:01, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
All we did for that was head=〳<br/>〵, which doesn't come out looking too good anyway. --WikiTiki89 15:42, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

remove junk from Special:WantedPages[edit]

Module:IPA should be updated so that it links to Appendix:Proto-Germanic pronunciation‏‎ if and only if that page exists. Likewise, whatever is responsible for the links to Wiktionary:Korean transliteration et al should only link if those pages eist. Ditto whatever is responsible for Template:nl-categoryTOC‏‎. That would clear out a lot of junk from Special:WantedPages, so that it would be possible to see what pages are actually wanted. An alternative which I have entertained is to mass-create Appendix:Proto-Germanic pronunciation‏‎- and Wiktionary:Korean transliteration-type pages with null content. - -sche (discuss) 20:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

You're really asking for the impossible. The check that looks if a page exists or not, #ifexist in Template code or the equivalent in Lua, already creates a link by itself. So it's not possible to simultaneously check for existence while not creating a link. —CodeCat 20:25, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
There's always the option of putting the information in the data modules so such expensive checks don't have to be made every time a page is loaded. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Ok, I've made changes to Module:IPA so that it only includes links to pronunciation pages for languages from a predefined list. That list is defined in the data submodule, Module:IPA/data. It's now up to other editors to fill that list as pages are created. —CodeCat 21:32, 24 July 2015 (UTC)


Discussion moved to WT:BP.

{{IPA}} and {{fr-asph}} don't like each other[edit]

This text line creates illegal wiki code in hongre, hanche and others:


It shows roughly as this:
IPA(key): (aspirated h)/ɔ̃ɡʁ/[[Category:IPA pronunciations with invalid IPA characters|<>A:G#</>Cg:F//]]
The IPA template or module checks if the template argument contains illegal IPA delimiters (other than // or []) and does not expect other templates. No idea if it should. --MaEr (talk) 15:58, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

@MaEr: I believe the correct usage is {{fr-asph}} {{IPA|lang=fr|/ɔ̃ɡʁ/}}(aspirated h) IPA(key): /ɔ̃ɡʁ/. —JohnC5 17:02, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
@JohnC5: Oh thanks! And I thought it should indicate the position of an H phoneme... --MaEr (talk) 17:09, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Accelerated links not working?[edit]

I no longer get any preload links. Did something change recently? DTLHS (talk) 23:47, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Pls try again after a hard refresh. It must be me (my attempts to add more links). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:01, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes that must have been it. DTLHS (talk) 00:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)


Hey all. Annoyingly, entries using Template:es-adv by default class adverbs as being comparable. I'd prefer to have them by default not showing comparability, because at the moment there are plenty of errors. Can someone either unprotect the Template so I can fiddle with it? Or better still, to remove this default themselves? --A230rjfowe (talk) 20:24, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js transliteration field[edit]

I edited User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js so that it would not add the unnecessary sc=Hebr to Hebrew and Yiddish translations. However, this had the side-effect of disabling the transliteration field by default. Is there any way to make the transliteration field enabled by default but not add the unnecessary script code? --WikiTiki89 14:48, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

The script determined if transliteration was necessary by first guessing its script. If it was guessable and different from Latn it displayed the transliteration box.
On 1428th line
toggle(guess && guess != 'Latn', controls.transliteration);
guess is false for Hebrew so it does not show it.
Possible solution
toggle(!guess or (guess && guess != 'Latn'), controls.transliteration);
Also, I believe 1435th line should be
toggle(langmetadata.getScripts(lang).length > 1, controls.script);
instead of
toggle(langmetadata.getScripts(lang).length != 1, controls.script);
For obvious reasons.
Also, isn't Editor.js an annoying name for something that deals with translation tables?--Dixtosa (talk) 19:05, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
No I was wrong, we need a new attribute in metadata for specifying if the transliteration can be automated for each language, or revert all script-related edits and let peace be upon them... .--Dixtosa (talk) 19:15, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, let's add a new attribute. --WikiTiki89 17:10, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

{{IPA}} and pronunciation appendices[edit]

Why does {{IPA|...|lang=sga}} no longer link to Appendix:Old Irish pronunciation? It's taking me to Wikipedia instead, as if the pronunciation appendix didn't exist. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:56, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

See the section #remove junk from Special:WantedPages above. —CodeCat 12:57, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Oh, okay. I've added a bunch more languages to the module. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:20, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Edit filters regarding pagemoves[edit]

Special:Contributions/Glory of Space has highlighted that we should probably block users from moving pages to titles with multiple consecutive punctuation characters. If possible, a filter preventing un-auto-confirmed users from making more than e.g. 6 moves in an hour would also seem useful, as would a filter preventing un-auto-confirmed users from moving pages to titles longer than e.g. 30 characters. - -sche (discuss) 20:21, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:47, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Per a request, I've copied en.wp's edit filter 68 "Pagemove throttle for new users" to Wiktionary's filter 44. It is currently set to tag only as I have not copied over the (warning message) and want to leave the design of that and filter settings choices to active admins here. Note that to limit users to 6 moves, the abuse filter limit needs to be 12 actions as moving a page and it's associated talk page count as 2 move actions. Thryduulf (talk) 22:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Can we please reject the new changes to the Watchlist UI?[edit]

The gigantic buttons take up the whole screen. --WikiTiki89 20:02, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. I have to scroll through a screen and a third of other mess before I reach my actual watchlist. The buttons should be made normal-size, step 1. Step 2, perhaps the entire section could be trimmed and/or collapsed. Step 3, if we could remove the line "Pages that have been changed since you last visited them are shown in bold." for people like me who have suppressed the bolding, that'd be nice, too. I would suggest shortening MediaWiki:Rcnote and MediaWiki:Rclinks so that they could fit onto one line, if there were a way to put them on the same line rather than on separate lines one after the other. - -sche (discuss) 02:51, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
The "shown in bold" bit is apparently generated by MediaWiki:Wlheader-showupdated, or rather by the mediawiki default content of that page, which we could override by creating the page(?); compare Wikipedia's w:MediaWiki:Wlheader-showupdated and its talk page. - -sche (discuss) 02:57, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
All the top content has some value when one is learning the system, but it is just screen-space-devouring meaninglessness thereafter. Perhaps it could all be collapsed by an active selection in preferences. DCDuring TALK 03:53, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
The buttons seem to have disappeared. Good. - -sche (discuss) 22:31, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Disabling transliteration in User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js[edit]

If the only script specified in Module:languages is Latn can the transliteration field be disabled? People apparently like to use it for all kinds of crap that isn't transliteration- see User:DTLHS/cleanup/bad_translit (partial- generating a full report now). Further, could the translation templates generate a cleanup cat in these cases? DTLHS (talk) 23:48, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I doubt that most of those were entered through the editor. After all, the transliteration field clearly says what it is. The tr= parameter, on the other hand, has a very ambiguous and misleading name. I pointed this out before, and proposed renaming it to xlit=. —CodeCat 23:54, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Fine. I still think adding a category would be a good idea, since it would also let us find languages that need more scripts specified. DTLHS (talk) 00:31, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

inweave and en-verb[edit]

The simple past and past participle differ (inwove, inwoven); I now need to add inweaved as alternatives for both of these. I don't see how Template:en-verb can support this. Any tips? Equinox 02:23, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't seem that difficult. I've added it in now. —CodeCat 02:26, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Extra blank line after {{suffixsee}}[edit]

An extra blank line shows up under {{suffixsee}} in entries. Can someone please remove it from the template? See -szerű. Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 21:11, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


Hi Greasies. Is it possible to make a todo list of all Spanish nouns using head|es|noun? TO find and correct things like this --A230rjfowe (talk) 22:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

[2]? —suzukaze (tc) 22:11, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
@A230rjfowe: User:DTLHS/head es noun DTLHS (talk) 22:31, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
@DTLHS: Thanks man, I love you! --A230rjfowe (talk) 22:33, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
I've been working tnrough the list, and came to the conclusion that correcting the entries is a bit boring. I'm sure a cleanup bot could do these kind of edits at 1000 times the speed. --A230rjfowe (talk) 16:12, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Need L2R code in translit for {{l}} and {{m}} and {{t}}[edit]

Things get wonky with Arabic followed by translit in some cases, e.g.

The first case is fixable with an appropriately placed L2R code (U+200E) directly before the left paren. The second case has the translit listed next to the wrong word and is also fixable with an L2R code:

Can CodeCat (talkcontribs) or someone fix the module code to inert these L2R codes?


Benwing (talk) 22:08, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I've fixed it with a single edit to Module:links, as these three templates all share the same linking code (yay!). Does Module:headword need any changes? —CodeCat 22:26, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks very much!
You might want to go ahead and fix it for Module:headword; I don't know of any examples where it occurs but if you write
  • ٩ ‎(9)
you still get the same problem.
Also, if you want to fix the second example above, you'd need to insert the L2R code in Module:links even when there's no gloss. Benwing (talk) 23:12, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
You mean, append a LRM to the very end of the output? Or am I placing it in the wrong place to begin with? —CodeCat 23:41, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
It's in the right place, but what I'd like is an LRM at the end of the output if there's no transliteration (i.e. directly after the linked word); that will fix the second example above. Benwing (talk) 03:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Would putting a LRM at the end of the output in all cases, and none anywhere else, work as well? —CodeCat 22:40, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
I think this should work. If it fixes the above examples, then it should be fine. Benwing (talk) 05:21, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

August 2015

Category problems[edit]

This category and this one need to be updated. Thanks Codeofdusk (talk) 00:42, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Categories update automatically, but sometimes it takes a while for the updates to show up. Purging the cache of a page or making a null edit will often update the category, too. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 05:46, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Eastern Mari code problem[edit]

Here at Witkionary, the Eastern Mari language has the code "chm". At Wikipedia, however, its code is "mhr" (see, e.g., http://mhr.wikipedia.org). This creates an unsolvable problem: when I try to use templates like {{wikipedia}} or {{slim-wikipedia}} to link entries to the corresponding Eastern Mari Wikipedia articles, I get a Lua error message if I use the parameter lang=mhr, whereas, if I use lang=chm, I don't get an error message but the link is not to the Eastern Mari wikipedia (rather, it is to a non-existant namespace "Chm:" in the English Wikipedia). Given this situation, what's a well-intentioned average Wiktionarian to do?--Pereru (talk) 04:54, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Module:wikimedia languages/data (I think I did that right- someone should check). DTLHS (talk) 04:57, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
I've just checked-- it still has the same problems. Maybe someone could check if that was the right change? --Pereru (talk) 01:09, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
It's only half of the change. By adding it to Module:wikimedia languages/data, you've specified that there's a Wikimedia code that should be turned into chm on Wiktionary. But there's also the reverse process, which is done in Module:languages/data3/c, to specify that the corresponding Wikimedia code for chm is mhr. —CodeCat 01:11, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
The template {{slim-wikipedia|lang=mhr}} gives an error while {{wikipedia|lang=mhr}} does not- why is this? DTLHS (talk) 01:13, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
Fixed. —CodeCat 01:21, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Thai transliterations with tones[edit]

Discussion moved to Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2015/August#Thai transliterations with tones.