Wiktionary:Grease pit/2018/March

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discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← February 2018 · March 2018 · April 2018 → · (current)

Tabbed languages + MediaWiki update[edit]

Has anyone else problems with tabbed languages and MediaWiki edit urls? When I save a page ?action=edit is still part of the URL and messes up the tabs. I have to remove the "edit" part and reload the page (just reloading the page will go back into edit mode). I suspect this behaviour was introduced with a recent MW upgrade. – Jberkel 09:10, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Empty arguments to {{suffix}}[edit]

I'd like to be able to give an empty argument (or -) to {{suffix}} together with a corresponding |argN= parameter to produce an effect similar to {{m|und||*term}} in order to discuss hypothetical suffixes. Could someone make this happen? Crom daba (talk) 00:05, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

@Crom daba: I enabled that in the suffix template (though not the other affix templates yet): {{suffix|und|base|alt2=*hypothetical suffix}}base +‎ *-hypothetical suffix. You leave parameter N + 1 empty and put in the corresponding |altN= parameter instead. — Eru·tuon 00:24, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Terms by script[edit]

I noticed we don't have Category:Terms needing native script by script or Category:Cyrillic terms needing native script. Any chance someone might be able to put that together? --Victar (talk) 00:40, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Template:hot word throws error for lang=mul[edit]

Translingual once more gets no respect. See [[Tupanvirus]] for example of module error resulting from use of lang=mul. But it's a more general problem than just one template. DCDuring (talk) 17:52, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

You have to use lang as an explicit named parameter. DTLHS (talk) 18:00, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, there's no secret conspiracy against Translingual. But we should try to switch over this kind of template to using the langcode as the first positional parameter, in line with many other templates. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:50, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
It wouldn't be a shock if "mul" were unintentionally neglected. I thought I had tried lang=. Sorry. DCDuring (talk) 21:51, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Have edit summaries got longer?[edit]

When I add to an entry I'm in the habit of pasting my additions into the edit summary box, to show exactly what I did. The box would cut them off short. Now it's allowing far more characters, and I might be clogging up the Recent Changes a bit. See e.g. [1]. Does anyone know why this changed? Equinox 17:53, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

See here. I think that such copy-pasting is a waste of time, to be honest; if someone cares, they can check the diff very quickly (almost instantaneously if they're a logged-in user who's got the proper gadget). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:53, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Help in installing the gadget[edit]

All are a good day! I'm a sysop of the Belarusian Wiktionary please help me with installation on my wiki this gadget. --OlegCinema (talk) 14:50, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

@OlegCinema: Прывітанне. You mean the Belarusian wiktionary? The translation adder is not meant to be used on Wikipedia (indeed, I don't see how it could). --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:24, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Да, wiktionary. Я перепутал. Не Википедия --
@Per utramque cavernam: Sorry, I confused. Not Wikipedia. --OlegCinema (talk) 09:03, 5 March 2018 (UTC)


This template, which invokes Module:linkbar, is used at WT:WL, where it pings the user whose name is linked to. It seems undesirable, or at best unnecessary, to bring this process to the attention of the person under deliberation. Can we prevent the ping from occurring? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:20, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't remember getting pinged when the suggestion was made, but only when my user rights were changed. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:27, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
I might be mistaken, then! Want to do a quick test? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:34, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Yes, go ahead. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:37, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Well, I did get pinged. I'm gonna check my ping history because I'm curious now. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
I got pinged every time. I must be senile... --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:46, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
A user will be pinged when their username is linked to. If you don't want the pings you need to remove the link. DTLHS (talk) 19:15, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Go ahead. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 08:49, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
@Per utramque cavernam, is this your only ping from me? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:49, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Yes. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:13, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

A more drastic Lua memory solution[edit]

So, we've significantly reduced the number of pages with memory errors now, but do and wind still are overflowing, despite now being in the memory-intensive entry list. I was wondering whether another solution might alleviate our difficulties. It is often the pages that contain many translations that cause a problem and as the project grows, the number of these pages will only increase. For these giant pages, I was thinking that we could move there translations to a subpage and leave the translation box as a redirect. Unfortunately, this feels like a kludge to me.

A more powerful solution might be to make a "Translation" namespace with an associated tab like we have for Citations. With this system, we could remodel MediaWiki:Gadget-TranslationAdder.js to edit this Translation namespace (if that is actually possible. @Dixtosa?). Then you have the translation boxes call a Lua module that checks the size of the Translation page. If it is above a certain threshold, you don't render the contents but instead leave a link. Some details would need to be worked out, like how to represent the data on the Translation page to be parse back to the mainspace, but this would lower the amount of memory, as it would not actually load all the linking and language data if the translation section is deemed too large. Of course, we'd also have to get a new namespace, etc. and the programming changes would not be insubstantial. Unless we do something, however, we're steadily going to run out of memory in all the most semantically or orthographically common entries. @Chuck Entz, Metaknowledge, Erutuon, Jberkel, Rua, -sche, Vriullop, TheDaveRoss, DTLHS. —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 12:21, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Another, less extreme option would be to just have the translations be flat wiki markup instead of calling modules (without much benefit, really). I am not sure why we have to look up a language code for every translation which exists on the site. The transliteration magic is nice, but that only needs to happen once, and after that it could easily by "flattened" by a bot so that it doesn't need to make module calls again afterward.
Re translation namespace, there are a lot of problems which would need to be solved before this would work. Many terms have lots of senses to be translated, so figuring out which portion to transclude, and keeping it in sync, is one major hurdle. We should also test whether the memory usage of a transcluded page is counted against the total for the page, otherwise this may actually increase Lua memory usage. - TheDaveRoss 12:29, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
@TheDaveRoss: I imagine the memory usage of fetching a page's data (local content = mw.title.new("Translations:" .. PAGENAME):getContent()) is comparable to having the bytes in the entry itself. The issue would be parsing through the data to find the appropriate bit to render. For my money, the most effective long-term solution would be to move all the translations to a Translations namespace and then leave redirects in the mainspace. This keeps the memory out of the entry and gives you all of your fancy rendering. The problem would then be having to go to a different page to look at the translations. —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 12:42, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
I missed the portion where you said we would not transclude very large pages, which would certainly reduce resource usage. - TheDaveRoss 13:53, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
There's an easy way to check the basic principle: edit this subpage and look at the memory usage, then edit the main Grease pit page and compare its memory usage. The main Grease pit page uses about three times the memory of this one, so I suspect the entire memory usage of the transcluded page is included in the transcluding page. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:22, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Our biggest translations tables currently include under 3000 languages. We have codes for roughly 8000 languages. Your idea is interesting, and might even have other utility — it reminds me of the proposed Collocations namespace, which would've allowed, as this also theoretically could, collecting translations of common collocations of words that are SOP but that translation dictionaries often include. However, I suspect that, even if in a separate namespace, translations tables will eventually run out of memory. (I suppose this could be tested by generating a translation table with some nonsense string written in each language in each of the scripts that the language has. That last part is important.) I also think that, conceptually, something more like what The Dave Ross proposes might be more desirable. In particular, my (testable/falsifiable) understanding has been that subst:ing in transliterations, and just accepting them and ceasing to compare manual to automatic transliterations, might significantly reduce memory usage; subst:ing in language names would also seem useful. - -sche (discuss) 15:17, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Audio playback cut off too early[edit]

See Talk:Plymouth. I can reproduce the problem in current Google Chrome. Equinox 18:15, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I have the same problems, and in following it upstream it appears that it is not a local problem. My guess is that MW has versions of the file for downloading and versions of the file for playing in browser, and the in-browser versions are somehow broken. The recording is also not very good, maybe someone can replace it. - TheDaveRoss 13:39, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Inputbox (or something similar) passing text input to a module for processing ― possible?[edit]

Something similar to mw:Extension:InputBox: could be a string or paragraph box, that passes the text input to a backend module for processing upon button-clicking, and returns a processed output. Is this possible? Any guide on how to write this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Wyang (talk) 10:33, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I did it to test a module: ca:Module:ca-general. The output of a wiki inputbox can only be obtained as a page name, so it edits a subpage of a sandbox showing the result in the editintro. --Vriullop (talk) 17:10, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Hmm, thanks. I think I was expecting more than the MediaWiki preloader, as in whatever is written in the inputboxes (e.g. 'язык') can be passed to a module, to produce an output like 'jazyk'.
I remember @Dixtosa (sorry to disturb your wikibreak!) mentioned that this may be possible (?) at Wiktionary:Grease pit/2016/November#Recent searches for non-existent entries. It would be very useful if it is indeed feasible.
I'd like to learn a bit of coding for this, although not quite sure where to start. Wyang (talk) 22:42, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm curious: would it be something of this kind, or of this one? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:56, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes, something similar. It doesn't have to be limited to transliterations; could also be IPA, script conversion, text segmentation, translation, etc. Wyang (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

@Wyang: Something that I'd find invaluable would be a small search engine for "language name > language code" and the reverse. I suppose it would use Module:languages/code to canonical name and Module:languages/canonical name to code. I think that's a similar tool from a conceptual point of view. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 23:07, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam: The xte gadget does that already. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:20, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
Indeed! Thanks. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 13:30, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
This seems relevant. —suzukaze (tc) 23:09, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks @Suzukaze-c! I will very slowly investigate... Wyang (talk) 23:12, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c: Sorry, I forgot to answer. I'm confused :3 How should I use this? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 23:58, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
This doesn't do anything, right? (did you get my second ping, btw?) --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Ah, I was replying to Wyang's original post. (;・∀・) (I don't know what you mean by "second ping"...) —suzukaze (tc) 00:07, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
The search results are for scripts that seem to have the ability to render wikitext. I don't know what CodeLinks specifically does. —suzukaze (tc) 00:13, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm trying to ping you from the edit summary. That shit doesn't work! --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 00:15, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
#Notification_from_edit_summary says you have to wait a few more hours. —suzukaze (tc) 00:58, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
And templates on edit summary are not expanded, you should use a real link. --Vriullop (talk) 09:02, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c, Vriullop: Oh, ok, thanks and thanks! --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 10:31, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Linking to parts of speech sections with {{l}}[edit]

Would it be possible to have {{l|en|walk|pos=verb}} (for example) link to the verb section of walk rather than to the top of the entry page? — SGconlaw (talk) 23:06, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

And what if there are multiple verb sections (like with different etymologies)? - 23:37, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Good point. Perhaps there should be some way to specify which section (e.g., "verb 2"). — SGconlaw (talk) 04:31, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
@Sgconlaw: Use {{senseid}}. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:39, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
Ah. But that would entail having to create all the sense-ids ... It would be nice to have {{l}} at least link by default to the first appropriate part-of-speech section. — SGconlaw (talk) 06:24, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
The problem is that POS headers are just headers as far as the system is concerned. If you look at the links in the table of contents at the top of any page with lots of headers (wind, for example) you'll see that the system sticks a number at the end of each header name that's a duplicate, but doesn't distinguish between language sections, and also bases it strictly on order. That means your "Noun_2" becomes "Noun_3" if someone adds a new noun section before it. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:12, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

feminine of[edit]

Hey. How easy would it be to categorise, or make a list of, all Spanish nouns that use "feminine of"? Things like comercializadora is what I'm after. Ideally, of course, we would have all of them as lemmas, and make a link to the masculine form. It's all about equality of the genders, obviously. Even though Spanish is inherently sexist. --Otra cuenta105 (talk) 23:13, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Running a search for incategory:Spanish_nouns insource:/\{\{feminine of/ should yield a complete list. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 03:13, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
Personally, I think {{feminine noun of}} is a good compromise. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:18, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Font creation[edit]

Does anyone have any experience creating fonts? I'm having trouble getting the .fina lookups to work using FontForge. --Victar (talk) 13:20, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Albanian, Irish and Old Irish cognates[edit]

Is there any way I can pull out Wiktionary etymologies which contain references to Albanian, Irish and/or Old Irish words?

@Rdurkan User:DTLHS/Irish-Albanian DTLHS (talk) 02:54, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Please test pings in edit summary[edit]

1. Read this:

"You can notify users in edit summaries. They will get a ping just as if they had been mentioned on a wiki page. phab:T32750"-- meta:Tech/News/2018/10

2. Sign up at https://en.wiktionary.beta.wmflabs.org/ using a different user name and password (not the one you use here). You may create multiple accounts if you like, just put a note on their user pages.

3. Edit a page and put a username link in edit summary. Confirm that you are receiving the notification correctly.

4. Test at different pages and in different ways.

5. Report bugs to Phabricator.

6. Share this comment with other people on other wikis, in different languages.

--Gryllida (talk) 23:54, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Sound laws app[edit]

Hello. I've just had this idea I wanted to put out there: a sound law application. It would apply all known sound laws leading from one language to another (say Proto-Germanic to Swedish) to any given word, in an algorithmic fashion.

The first step would be to list all the relevant sound laws (chronologically whenever possible). These would have to be confirmed by an appropriate set of words.

Implementing the reverse functions as well would be nice:

  • 1) inputting the etymon and the descendant and seeing if they're a match or not.
  • 2) inputting the descendant and outputting the etymon (or the different possible etyma, if there's been a sound merger at some point).

It would help tremendously in seeing how strong and prevalent analogy can be.

Does something of the sort already exist? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 17:00, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam Here's something: [2]. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 17:18, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
@Per utramque cavernam Here’s a more general sound change application, if you want to input your own set of sound laws and words and see what comes out. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 17:55, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Request: categorize names when both 'male' and 'female' are set[edit]

{{given name|male|or=female}} and {{given name|female|or=male}}, i.e. any use of the "or=" parameter, should categorize into "Category:(language) unisex given names". (This would resolve some of the entries which are categorized as both male and female given names, but not as unisex). Probably the template should even display "unisex" rather than "male or female" in such cases, although it's fine if only the categorization request can be fulfilled. (I also wonder whether "gender-neutral" might be better than "unisex"; Ngram results are inconclusive.) Reposting from January because unisex given names came up again at RFDO. - -sche (discuss) 17:42, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Converting Wiktionary dumps to a Kindle dictionary file[edit]

Hello all,

Here is a project of mine that will download and parse a Wiktionary dump, and then generate a MOBI dictionary file that Kindles can use for in-book word look-up. My work has been mostly to "glue" different already existing softwares together: JWTKL to parse the Wiktionary dump, tab2opf to convert text files to OPF and HTML ones, and KindleGen to create the MOBI file.

It is far from perfect as JWKTL does not handle templates (I implemented some code that does, but only a few of them are supported). Inflected word forms are also not supported, etc. Entries are also very basic, only definitions and examples will make it to the dictionary file.

This is more of a proof of concept than anything else, but as I could not find any Greek-English dictionary from Amazon or elsewhere I wanted to see what could be done with Wiktionary. The project is on GitHub and you'll find download links for three dictionaries I just generated (EN-EN, FR-EN, EL-EN). Please feel free to comment and suggest. — nyg gh (talk) 23:07, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

@Nyg gh: Nice! I worked on something similar a while back, also using JWKTL. We'll soon have dumps in HTML format, I think those are better suited for parsing than XML (or maybe a combination of both). – Jberkel 23:22, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
@Jberkel: Thanks :). I've looked at the dumps mailing lists but have seen no mention of these HTML dumps. Do you have more info? — nyg gh (talk) 18:56, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
@Nyg gh: related phabricator tickets: T133547, T182351Jberkel 19:02, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Cascading protection of User:DerekWinters[edit]

Cascading protection of the user page User:DerekWinters is preventing me from editing Module:parameters. What on earth??? It's so bizarre it's hilarious, but I'd appreciate it if an admin could fix this, so I can look into a bug in Module:headword/templates that may reside in Module:parameters. @AryamanA, it looks like you added the protection; was it meant to be cascading? — Eru·tuon 04:41, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Removed the cascading protection. DTLHS (talk) 04:45, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
@Erutuon: That's really weird, sorry for the trouble. I meant to protect his subpages. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 10:10, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Notification from edit summary[edit]

The only script I can think of that mentions a user page is the rollback one, and the rolled-back user will already get a ping by dint of having been reverted. I guess this means they'll get a double ping? If so, we should edit the script to prevent that. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:45, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Add curly braces around ISBNs in QQ[edit]

Can someone find a way to safely make this edit work? ISBNs should be templatized (like this) so as not to end up in Category:Pages using ISBN magic links (magic links will be removed at some point). - -sche (discuss) 05:06, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Austronesian etymology[edit]

Can anyone tell me how I can pull out all entries with references in their etymology sections to Proto-Austronesian, Proto-Polynesian, Proto-Nuclear Polynesian and/or Proto-Malayo-Polynesian, please? —This unsigned comment was added by Rdurkan (talkcontribs).

Ugh why do they ruin everything?[edit]

Some change has messed up a keyboard shortcut that's important to me. Go to delete a page and the "reason" box is focused. I usually hit Shift+Tab to focus back to the preceding list of reasons, then e.g. "V" to choose "vandalism", then tab back and type the sub-reason. Now the list can't be tabbed into, because it's apparently become some IDIOTIC custom element, not a real HTML list, that won't respond to input properly. Where can I complain? I really don't want yet another login/signup so if anyone can help/post on my behalf that would be wonderful. Equinox 17:18, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Poking around in the Delete interface in Chrome, it appears that the main deletion reason dropdown is still selectable using Shift-Tab, when starting from the "Other/additional reason" textbox -- if you hit Shift-Tab 54 times. If you hit just Tab to cycle forward, you have to hit it 13 times.
It appears that someone screwed up the z-index value somehow. Both are shown in the CSS inspector with the default value of auto, FWIW. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:45, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for investigating. Is anyone able to report this bug? I am really unwilling to create an extra account. (Also ask them to let registered wiki users write bug reports. w00t!) Equinox 15:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
For that matter, where does one report bugs? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:54, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
On Phabricator. I've had the pleasure of using it once before. -Stelio (talk) 17:18, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Display of current votes in watchlist[edit]

I remember the Template:votes appearing in my watchlist, but it's been missing now for a small handful of months. I'm guessing I've changed a preference that has removed it, but I don't see which setting it is. Any thoughts on how I can add it back in to my watchlist? Thanks, Stelio (talk) 11:05, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

That's strange, it still appears in mine, as it always has. --WikiTiki89 15:46, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
It was removed from some people's watchlist as a test, following this conversation. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 16:07, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Without telling them? DonnanZ (talk) 16:25, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
This is a bad change and should have been voted on. --Victar (talk) 17:01, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Who did this, @TheDaveRoss? I agree that it is very inappropriate to take action, especially selective action, after a discussion like that. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:24, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Wait no, I'm definitely confusing this with something else. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 17:25, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

@Stelio What happens if you restore the default settings? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 17:28, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Fascinating. Restoring to the default preferences does indeed put the votes back on my watchlist. I then tried editing settings one at a time and checking the watchlist. First thing I did was change language from "en - English" to "en-GB British English". Bam! No votes on my watchlist. So there's the culprit identified.
This also explains why a change to a special message didn't actually work for me (it was changed for en but not en-GB).
So in the short term I'll revert to using "en". Longer term, I'll look at a way to synchronise the various en* language pages for special messages. -Stelio (talk) 20:17, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

eq= in {{given name}}[edit]

Can someone link this parameter to English sections? That's its sole purpose, and it creates a bunch of black links on pages where the form is the same as the English name. See Teresa. Ultimateria (talk) 21:27, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Polish m-pr declension template[edit]

I get an error message when using {{pl-decl-noun-m-pr}} for proper nouns with certain endings (-ła, -la, -ka, -sa, -wa, -za, -zia, -cia, -nia, -na). For example, see https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Bary%C5%82a&oldid=49175834

Am I the only person who can't get the template to work for these endings? I can type out the declension manually but this does take more time. Hergilei (talk) 20:49, 17 March 2018 (UTC)