User talk:Vorziblix

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OCS in SC etymologies[edit]

I've noticed you added it some entries, e.g. jara and jarost. OCS should be used only for "learned borrowings" (učene posuđenice) from the attested OCS cannon. Some time ago we (well, I..) in fact used OCS as an attestation of Common Slavic, in those cases when etyma were identical/formally compatible with reconstructed Common Slavic forms, but that approach had the drawback of not taking into consideration actual borrowings from OCS, of which there are a few (the only list I know is from PPGHJ §372), as well as being, well, wrong from a genetic perspective. It would be nice to compile an appendix of all such words! --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 07:05, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah, that makes sense. I've mostly been working from old sources (1820s to 1920s) that tend to list OCS forms of words rather than Proto-Slavic ones; probably most of these sources are somewhat outdated by now. I do have Derksen's much more recent Etymological Dictionary of the Slavic Inherited Lexicon, which lists Proto-Slavic reconstructions and their descendants, but unfortunately it usually omits the paths by which the descendants are derived, for which the older sources are more helpful. I'll change the OCS derivations I previously added to 'akin to ...' or 'cognate to...' to be more accurate. Vorziblix (talk) 18:50, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Rhymes[edit]

These are based on the stressed syllable. It's DIDdest, not didDEST, so that doesn't rhyme with vest, nest, etc. Equinox 18:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

@Equinox Surely the "Partial rhymes" section, where I added diddest, does not consist of words stressed on the last syllable? All the other words in that section seem to accord with this; none of them are stressed on est. Vorziblix (talk) 20:28, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Oh, you're right. I'd never seen a "partial rhymes" section before, oddly enough (and don't quite see the usefulness)! Equinox 20:44, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
However, it still seems bad/misleading to include these as generic "rhymes" on the word's entry, since they aren't proper standard rhymes. Equinox 20:45, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Sure, makes sense! Vorziblix (talk) 20:49, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
It does συντάκτης Βικιλεξικό 02:21, 9 February 2015 (UTC) συντάκτης Βικιλεξικό

франьчьскъ[edit]

Huge chunk of words in Slovník jazyka staroslověnského don't belong to the OCS canon. E.g. VencNik = Vita paleoslovenica s. Venceslai recentior seu Nikol'skiana [1], which is non-canonical. Neither is Const = Vita Constantini. Старославянский словарь is much better in that regard. These entries should be formatted as ==Church Slavonic== instead. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 23:56, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. I’ll be more careful in the future. We still have no separate language codes for the two, though, do we? Vorziblix (talk) 08:56, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
No we don't, which means that we should still use ==Old Church Slavonic== as the header, but include a context label such as maybe {{lb|cu|later Church Slavonic}} or even with a specific region. --WikiTiki89 19:37, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Renaming reconstructions[edit]

Please do not rename the pages at the same time as moving them to the new namespace. It's confusing. If they need to be renamed, move them to the new namespace, and then rename them. --WikiTiki89 21:35, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Sure, my apologies. Vorziblix (talk) 21:39, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Gloss[edit]

Just a note... Thanks! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:37, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Ah, thanks! I was just copying what the preexisting entry at propuh had and forgot about this template. Vorziblix (talk) 03:39, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Syntactic gemination[edit]

Hello, I've seen that you started a new discussion on the Beer parlour, so I think you're a quite expert user of the Wikitionary and like to discuss. Would you like to join this discussion? It's about the improper use of asterisks for Italian words with "syntactic gemination", introduced by an Italian user without asking anyone's opinion and without a consensus, but admins say that now a consensus is needed to remove them since nobody noticed them and said anything about them during the last months. So far, the few users who commented agreed that the asterisk symbol shouldn't be used, but I think that we need more users to say that the community reached a consensus... If you want to say your opinion, you're welcome to the talk!

@95.154.3.22 Hello! Unfortunately, while I do a lot of work with Slavic languages, I know practically nothing about Romance languages, so I’m not sure I could really have an informed opinion in that discussion. However, it looks like your proposal is going to pass in any case, so I’m probably not needed anyway. Thanks for the invitation nonetheless! Vorziblix (talk) 18:50, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

You're welcome, and thanks anyway!

egy[edit]

Could you check if all words are correct titles at thwikt? [2] I don't see same page on enwikt here. --Octahedron80 (talk) 06:24, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

@Octahedron80 If thwiki has the same transliteration system as enwiki, the titles should be changed as follows:
  • i → .j
  • ink → jnk
  • qAt → qꜣt
  • rmT → rmṯ
mt would not be changed. —Vorziblix (talk) 06:31, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello there[edit]

I recently fell upon your hard work on Egyptian lemmas and I passed by to congratulate you for that. I wish to extensively keep up the wonderful contribution you offer and I will be extremely glab if you strongly focus on the Old Kingdom Egyptian Language (OKEL) as a whole. I hope you the best. One day I am heading to learn Old Egyptian and be fluent with its scientifically reconstructed pronunciation. Best wished and good continuation. Hanno the Navigator (talk) 15:38, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

@Hanno the Navigator Thanks, it’s good to know someone is making use of my contributions. I’ll keep working on Egyptian entries for the foreseeable future. Best wishes to you, too, in your learning! —Vorziblix (talk) 05:21, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Egyptian translations[edit]

I've been trying to clean up the formatting of translation tables and the existing Egyptian translations are problematic. What do you think of creating a new template {{t-egy}}, to be used as follows: {{t-egy|egy|zꜣw|h=V17-w-A3}}, where the "h" parameter stood for hieroglyphics? It would take all of the other parameters that {{t}} could normally take such as gender. It would display as something like this:

(hopefully with the hieroglyphics in a smaller font size so they fit inline). Putting the hieroglyphics on the same line means there can be multiple translations. Do you like this idea, or have any suggestions? DTLHS (talk) 22:11, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

@DTLHS That looks good to me. Perhaps the order should be switched, as transliterations usually follow native script, and it makes the parentheses less incongruous — something like this:
On the other hand, Egyptian is sort of a special case, since we lemmatize at the transliteration, so whichever order you think is best should be fine.
A note: template parameters seem to have trouble inside <hiero> tags, so that all the templates I’ve made so far have had to take the tags as part of the parameter, like {{t-egy|egy|zꜣw|h=<hiero>V17-w-A3</hiero>}}. Maybe this could be circumvented somehow (Lua?).
Regarding smaller hierogylphic fonts, I don’t know of any way to do that with WikiHiero; it’s pretty outdated technology. It would be nice to switch to something like RES eventually, but right now we may be stuck with large glyphs. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 02:43, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
I gave up trying to make the images smaller. You can see the template in use on magician. DTLHS (talk) 23:48, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Nice to finally have a standardized way of doing these. Thanks! — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 13:57, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Coptic[edit]

Thanks for your work on Coptic entries, especially that on previously absent dialects. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:26, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Glad to be of use. Thank you yourself for making so many of these entries in the first place. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 16:12, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

mryt[edit]

Hey Vorziblix! I've really appreciated your work recently on Egyptian, and I was wondering whether you could create the entry for mryt as mentioned in Μᾰ́ρειᾰ (Máreia). I only ask because I'm confused about the relationship of Μᾰ́ρειᾰ (Máreia) and Μᾰρεῶτῐς (Mareôtis) to mryt (why is there no τ (t) in Μᾰ́ρειᾰ (Máreia)?). Thanks. —JohnC5 16:44, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

@JohnC5 Thanks! and done. Regarding τ (t), the Egyptian feminine suffix -t was pronounced in Old Egyptian, but by Late Egyptian it had largely become silent (compare Coptic, where it’s no longer written at all). Perhaps we’re looking at borrowings from two different times, or from two different dialects, one more conservative than the other? — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 21:17, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
Ah, thanks for the explanation and writing the page. I thinks your theory sounds very plausible, if difficult to confirm. —JohnC5 04:24, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Hello again! Since you did such a great job with my last request, I was wondering whether you could take a look at Μοῖρῐς (Moîris). The Wikipedia page seems to imply that the source would be mr-wr, though in this case mr (canal) + wr (great). Can you confirm this, and do you know what the hieroglyphs would look like? Thanks! —JohnC5 07:48, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

A wild Ancient Greek borrowing from Egyptian appears. JohnC5 uses "request help from Vorziblix" against Νίτωκρις (Nítōkris). —JohnC5 01:18, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
It’s super effective! Hm, this one seems to have some recent debate surrounding it (as far as the name of the pharaoh goes), but the immediate derivation, at least, seems clear and well-accepted. I’ll go through and add what I can. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 08:15, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
@JohnC5 There you go, all done! — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 20:35, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks so much! —JohnC5 22:34, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Howdy! Might I interest you in the Ancient Greek term Σάϊς (Sáïs)? —JohnC5 02:51, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Coptic dialect labels[edit]

With my changes to Coptic alternative forms sections, labels can now be placed in Module:cop:Dialects, to automatically link dialect names for instance. I'll fill in a bunch from Module:labels/data/subvarieties. — Eru·tuon 23:04, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

@Erutuon: Thanks, I hadn’t known about {{alter}} at all before. I might make some additions to alias a few more dialect names, even if they don’t (yet) have a Wikipedia section to link to. Do you think sigla (as at WT:About Coptic etc.) should be usable as aliases? — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 04:58, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, I never responded. Well, you can use whatever you like for a label or an alias. (Ancient Greek has its weird three-letter codes for dialects, like att for Attic.) The only thing is to look out for the likelihood of ambiguity or misuse of the labels or aliases you add. But that should be pretty easy, as Coptic entries aren't all that numerous. — Eru·tuon 03:53, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

šbot[edit]

Hi. I am looking for the Coptic spelling of this word for ճիպոտ (čipot). Can you help? --Vahag (talk) 20:29, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan: Sure! The Coptic is ϣⲃⲱⲧ (šbōt), and the Egyptian is
SA A b d
xt
, which in our transliteration scheme would give šꜣbd, although other variant writings exist. Both Černý and Hoch call the Egyptian word a borrowing from Semitic. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 02:57, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. If Coptic is borrowed from Semitic, then the Armenian too is probably from some Semitic form. I can't imagine a word jumping from Egypt into Armenia. --Vahag (talk) 09:20, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Meroitic[edit]

The etyma at apov and pelmoz could use a check. Everyone who works on Meroitic is an Egyptologist, so I should trust them, but it deserves a once-over. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:11, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: Both are correct, although the mr in mr-mšꜥ is just an abbreviated form of jmj-r, so I’ll have the link go to jmj-r-mšꜥ. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 07:23, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Coptic verb conj.[edit]

Btw. I recently make an experimental template for conjugation of Coptic verbs. I need to make a few tweaks and check the spelling, but I wanted to ask others who work on Coptic words and entries for thoughts. Template: cop-conj. (you don't need to say anything if you don't care ;-) ) - Algentem (talk) 08:40, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@Algentem: Looks like a good start! Linking all the inflections in the table would be a good idea. Including the traditional terminology (Future I, Future II, Future III, and so forth) alongside the newer names could also be helpful, although it might clutter up the table. Otherwise, there are a few alternative inflected forms missing here and there, but all in all it looks good. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 18:16, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Hey, thanks for the feedback! Adding the classical designations did indeed clutter the table, but I added them as tooltips (good enough?). I also linked the first row, but I found the text to be too large. Is there anything in particular missing? This is how it looks like now: ⲙⲟⲟϣⲉ. - Algentem (talk) 11:42, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
@Algentem: You can link them with {{cop-table entry}}, letting the transliteration show up on a separate line, and you can also edit that template to change the text size as needed. The tooltips are a nice touch! As for missing material, for example, the second-person feminine singular present can also have ⲧⲉⲣ (ter) or ⲧⲣ (tr) instead of ⲧⲉ (te), etc., but one can always go through and add those later. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 12:49, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Admin[edit]

Hi. Fancy becoming a Wiktionary admin? --Rerum scriptor (talk) 21:48, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@Rerum scriptor: Hello! Hmm, after considering a while, I think it’d be helpful, particularly to expedite getting rid of spam and cleaning up redirects from moved pages, as well as to have a dedicated admin involved with Egyptian/Coptic, so I’ll say yes. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 00:35, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm glad to hear it. You've been around for quite some time, and seem knowledgeable, linguistically informed and –perhaps even more importantly– level-headed, so it should go fine. Calling in @JohnC5, Meta knowledge, Vahagn Petrosyan, as the administrators having contributed most recently to this talkpage, for a second opinion. --Rerum scriptor (talk) 23:17, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I've had only positive interactions with Vorziblix, and I like their work a lot. That said, they have not been this active for very long (I hardly remember seeing them around before recently), and I suspect other members of the community will not even recognise their name. Especially given the fact that there are people who oppose any WF nom on principle, I really don't know if a bid for adminship would be successful. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:28, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

It might be best to let this rest for now, then. Thanks in any case for the input (and thanks to @Rerum scriptor for your confidence). — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 05:31, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I would have voted in support without question. --Vahag (talk) 10:00, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! Maybe sometime down the line. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 01:38, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Same here, I'd vote for you. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:40, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
You should at least be a rollbacker - then you can undo multiple vandalisms with one key. SemperBlotto (talk) 21:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Sure, that’d be useful. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 22:15, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Made you a rollbacker now. Wyang (talk) 08:29, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Bohairic Coptic Conjugator[edit]

Hello Vorziblix, I hope everything finds you well,

Inspiration from @Algentem's conjugator has caused me to effect my own conjugator for the Bohairic Dialect @Bohairic Coptic conjugator template. It is complete sans verb forms(if they can even be added to the table) i.e. Absolute, Construct, Pronominal, and Qualitative; from my knowledge every verb form set is different for every verb. Here is a sample of a verb: Bohairic Coptic conjugator:ϫⲓⲙⲓ.

--Aearthrise
E23
(Ⲁⲉⲁⲣⲑⲣⲓⲥⲉ) 21:07, 6 October 2017‎(UTC)
@Aearthrise: Hello! Hope things are well for you too, and thanks for the work on making this. I’m not all that versed in Bohairic morphology, so I defer to your knowledge there, but you could always include the missing forms as parameters passed to the template. Just a few things regarding the structure of the table:
  1. It’s good to have each inflected form linked (including the prefix, not just the stem). Ideally, this will later facilitate the creation of entries for each form. I’d recommend using {{cop-table entry}} as with the Sahidic table above.
  2. It seems like there’s some (accidentally created?) superfluous empty cells among the headings at the top of the table, right under the person and gender headings; it’d be good to get rid of these. Including the pronouns there might also be more clutter than helpful (we should have a separate table for all the pronouns, to be included at each pronoun entry).
  3. A consistent color scheme between the Bohairic and Sahidic templates would probably be preferable to having different colors for different dialect tables. From an aesthetic standpoint I prefer the all-grey scheme, but if you and @Algentem decide on something more colorful, that’d be fine too. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 18:32, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@Vorziblix:Thank you for the feedback.
1.I have edited the table to include the prefixes and removed the superfluous empty cells; I don't know how to use the coptic table template.
2.I prefer to have the pronouns than to not; A separate table for all pronouns at each pronoun entry is a good idea.
3.Algentem and I have agreed to use colors, but much more muted than what I had: here is a palette swap.
A quick question: for some of the third person nominative conjugations, as in 'ⲁⲣⲉ ⲡⲓⲣⲱⲙⲓ ϫⲓⲙⲓ', I put '-', 'ⲁⲣⲉ - ϫⲓⲙⲓ'. Is there a way I can indicate that the '-' should be a noun?
--Aearthrise
E23
(Ⲁⲉⲁⲣⲑⲣⲓⲥⲉ) 15:28, 7 October 2017‎(UTC)
@Aearthrise: Looks good, and I see you got the template figured out. I don’t know that there’s any good/standard way to indicate that there should be a noun, but you could perhaps add a footnote to the column header stating as much. It might be worthwhile to ask in the Beer Parlour and see if anyone’s dealt with a similar situation and come up with a better solution. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 06:47, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Copto-Greek verbs and light verbs in Coptic[edit]

I'd appreciate your thoughts on a few matters concerning how Greek verbs and light verbs should be treated. It seems to me that treating the 'prefixed' imperatives or infinitives of Greek verbs as lemmas would at the very least suggest a lenient inclusion of light verbs, as these are all a nominal state of ⲉⲓⲣⲉ (eire)/ⲓⲣⲓ (iri) with the Greek verb and that doesn't differ all that much from most light verbs. It seems inconsistent to me to treat ⲉⲣ-/ⲉⲗ- + Greek verb root and ⲉⲣ-/ⲉⲗ- + Egyptian noun as very different things after all. I don't mind a liberal inclusion of light verbs, but I think it may prove controversial with some. Either way, a decision has to be made eventually.

Another thing is the etymology of prefixed Greek verbs. Not many of them have etymologies yet, but ⲉⲣⲯⲁⲗⲓⲛ (erpsalin) and ⲉⲣⲫⲟⲣⲓⲛ (erphorin) are some that have. I think the Coptic editors should eventually decide on whether to include forms like ⲯⲁⲗⲓⲛ (psalin) and ⲫⲟⲣⲓⲛ (phorin) (which probably aren't attested and aren't very useful to have either, so I would oppose) or to directly link to the Greek in etymology sections. Of course, the other option is to treat the bare Greek roots as the lemmas, but I think that's rather useless if the form never appears by itself. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:39, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo: I’d be in favor of including all attested light verb constructions as lemmas. After all, these are derived, not inflected, forms, and we don’t have the space restrictions of a paper dictionary; anyway, we already include light verb constructions in other languages, so there seems to be consensus that they fall within WT:CFI.
I’d also agree with you in opposing the inclusion of unattested Greek bare infinitives in Coptic; in Egedi 2016, Remarks on loan verb integration into Coptic, the author surveys cross-dialectal verb borrowing and notes that “the hypothetical fourth pattern ‘∅ infinitive’ does not arise at all”, so we don’t have to worry about these forms surfacing in other dialects. Linking directly to Greek in etymology sections would then make more sense (the light verb being added in the process of borrowing, rather than after borrowing). — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 21:16, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. I should probably create a BP discussion for this soon so we can have a uniform standard. The following issues also need to be settled, as there seem to be different practices:
  1. Whether to treat nominal states and pronominal states as prefixes or as specific parts of speech (e.g. nouns, verbs, prepositions, etc.) in headers and head lines.
  2. How to include nominal states and pronominal states in the dictionary (e.g. with or without hyphens or equal signs) and how to display them in head lines. Adding construct states with hyphens for both seems better to me, but I'd like to display pronominal states in heads with equal signs according to the convention.
  3. Whether to label Greek borrowings with dialect tags. I previously didn't do this, but it seems like a very good idea to do so even when a word is present in all dialects.
I've added a few different possible implementations of 1 & 2 at ⲛ- (n-) by way of example, though other options are also possible. Also pinging @Aearthrise, Algentem, DerekWinters to let them know of this thread. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:22, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
@Lingo Bingo Dingo: Yeah, it’s definitely a good idea to settle on standards as soon as we can; right now, WT:About Coptic mostly just specifies information about dialects, but whatever we settle on should be added there. For the specific points:
  1. I don’t have a strong preference here but lean toward using specific parts of speech wherever it’s possible to specify them.
  2. I would support using hyphens with nominal states, but for pronominal states I’d suggest the oblique double hyphen ⸗. Templates often handle the equals sign poorly, and in any case the use of the equals sign only began as a typographical kludge when the oblique double hyphen was unavailable; Crum, Černý, Lambdin, etc. consistently use ⸗. (It’s also already supported by the Coptic sorting module; not sure if that module would choke on equals signs.)
  3. Greek verbs definitely need this since different dialects borrow them in different forms; I’d support it for other parts of speech as well. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 15:50, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't have much to add other than that for borrowing Greek verbs, we can have the etymology section similarly to how Telugu does it for verbs borrowed from Sanskrit: వర్ణించు (varṇiṃcu). DerekWinters (talk) 19:02, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Sounds good to me! All that’s left is to see what other editors think. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 04:50, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Okay, I have replaced the equal sign with the double hyphen and added an example modelled on the Telugu entry to the section on Greek verbs. The BP topic is here. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:24, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

EWDC[edit]

Hi! Here are your 10 random missing English words for this month. Let me know if you'd prefer a secret alert by e-mail next time.

Equinox 00:53, 5 November 2017 (UTC)