User talk:Victar

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Hi ! The j in this word looks very out of place. I think a more appropriate form would be something along the lines of *rīffilōn or better yet *riffilōn, *rifilōn with short i Leasnam (talk) 06:56, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

@Leasnam: And to that I reply Sievers' law? Or am I misinterpreting? --Victar (talk) 18:14, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
While on the subject of Frankish *rīffijlōn, I'm having the darnest time sorting the descendants of *rīffijlōn, from what looks like a merger with the Frankish or OHG word *hraflōn, *hraffijlōn. You wanna have a look? --Victar (talk) 18:21, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Siever's Law wouldn't affect a cluster like jl. That law only applies to the addition of i before j after a long syllable. The Frk word would need to be *rīfilōn, *rifilōn, or perhaps *riffilōn. Same for the PGm term. No jl combination at all. Leasnam (talk) 00:33, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
Roger, moved it to *rīffilōn. Let me know if you have any thoughts on my query. English ruffle probably fits in there somehow as well, perhaps from the MDut. --Victar (talk) 01:46, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

bikkel, *bikkel[edit]

The etymology at bikkel and the (Middle) Dutch descendants at *bikkil are at odds. (The same split is also in the WNT vs. etymological dictionaries.) Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 15:10, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Vocalisation of laryngeals[edit]

The vocalisation of laryngeals is a post-PIE phenomenon and occurred exclusively when the laryngeal was between two obstruents. When there were sonorants in the mix, they were vocalised already in PIE and thus always vocalised first. The explanation of "syllabic" laryngeals next to sonorants is analogy with roots containing only obstruents. If CHC vocalised to CaC in post-PIE, then RHC or CHR might become RaC or CaR by analogy. This is seen in e.g. *bladą, which the PIE rules say must be *buldą instead. —CodeCat 17:17, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

As I said before, the vocalisation of laryngeals is post-PIE, it didn't exist in PIE itself. PIE only had syllabic sonorants, thus they were vocalised before any laryngeals were. A sequence of HRH always becomes ur in Germanic. Any exceptions are post-PIE processes and thus should not be listed as PIE descendants. —CodeCat 20:48, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Source access[edit]

Were you able to get into that book using Google Books? I've purchased it, so I'm not sure if that page is visible for public access. I'm not sure if I"m allowed to post screenshots of it (fair use?) but here's an attempt:, as well as the appendix:

P.S. what is templunk? I can't find anything in the manual so I don't know what I'm removing. Thanks for the info. Djkcel (talk) 15:53, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

@Djkcel: Yeah, if you have a look at your source you shared, it has a completely different reconstructed Celtic root, *broccus (a sharp-pointed object) not *brokkos (badger), so it's not giving an etymology to the Celtic word for badger. The Celtic word from that PIE root is *brodzos (point, tip). Proto-Celtic *brokkos (badger) to Latin brocca (buck-toothed) does make sense though, and that's where you see the Catalan boca they cite of the same meaning likely coming from.
Haha, yeah, not knowing what something does is probably a good reason not to touch it. {{unk.}} adds entries to a unknown etymology category, i.e. Proto-Celtic terms with unknown etymologies. Going through your contributions, I can see you've removed quite a few. I recommend that you go back and restore them. --Victar (talk) 19:36, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Oh, templunk = template unk(nown), figures. I tend to prefer 'uncertain' over 'unknown' because it leaves the discussion open rather than just dismissing the term as an eternal mystery. However, I understand the need to be able to tag words of this category because there's no category for words with 'uncertain' origins. I believe you can still make it say uncertain while tagging it as unknown. I'll figure out how to do that and move forward with it. Djkcel (talk) 03:56, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Avestan script[edit]

Hi, do you know about {{chars}}? If you only have the transliteration for Avestan, you can generate the native script automatically by writing {{subst:chars|desc|ae|θβərəsaiti}} and so forth. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:00, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I am, thanks. I commented on the talk page earlier. I'm hoping that the tool is actually built into {{m}} and {{l}} to automatically generate transliterations from |tr=. Also, on that page I'm working on, I'm using more exacting transliterations for more detailed sound changes, which got overwritten, unfortunately. --Victar (talk) 15:24, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Could you clarify the statement "exacting transliterations for more detailed sound changes"? Do you mean the use of hyphens or something else? —JohnC5 15:42, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Sure. No, I mean like accent marks and vowel quality, ex. 𐬛𐬁𐬎𐬭𐬎 (dā́ᵘru) vs. 𐬛𐬁𐬎𐬭𐬎 (dāuru). --Victar (talk) 16:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
If you want to use that system, it would need to be something like 𐬛𐬁𐬎𐬭𐬎 (dāuru, /dā́ᵘru/), if at all. The actual transcription always takes precedence over the academic phonemic reconstruction. —JohnC5 17:04, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
At this stage, it is just my personal project on my user space, so I don't require your input at this time. Thanks.--Victar (talk) 17:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Oh sorry. I thought we were talking about adding stuff in content entries. I apologize if that came off as overbearing. —JohnC5 17:31, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Ah, OK, I thought you were aware. No problem than. It's for a reflex table. --Victar (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
@Victar: Oh, sorry. Feel free to revert me; it is your user space after all. I was just trying to clear out Category:Avestan terms needing native script. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
No problem. Thanks though. I appreciate you going through that list. --Victar (talk) 16:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
BTW, does Avestan script show accent in any way? Or are you simply assuming the position of accent on the basis of Sanskrit? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:46, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
It doesn't, but can be guessed on the basis of Sanskrit. —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 14:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Correct, "Avestan manuscripts do not have written accent", however we know it existed because "Avestan *r is devoiced yielding -hr- before voiceless stops and after the accent — if the accent was not on the preceding syllable, *r is not devoiced". --Victar (talk) 14:52, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


You've marked the page *skankijō for deletion, and you've linked it to a different PGmc word...what's up ? Leasnam (talk) 04:37, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

*skankijō would be the correct form. Leasnam (talk) 04:39, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, my bad on that one. Was going to move it back when it got deleted. --Victar (talk) 04:48, 21 May 2017 (UTC)


Hi. You show that Old French took heiron from Middle Latin, but I don't believe that's the way it went. Middle Latin is not the ancestor of Old French, Vulgar Latin is. I think Middle Latin borrowed the word from Old French, which took it directly from the Frankish. Do you have a reliable source that shows otherwise ? Leasnam (talk) 04:10, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

In fact, it appears that you are attempting to funnel all Germanic loans in Romance languages through Latin first, but that's not always accurate. Only some of the earlier loans can be treated that way, but many words, and I believe this is one of them, came in through Old French, and were later borrowed by (Mediaeval) Latin and the Romance languages from French. Leasnam (talk) 04:20, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
I can look, but generally I find OF words of Frankish origin being descended from ML in sources, when an attested ML form exists. Want to look for any sources for your argument? --Victar (talk) 04:23, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
Mediaeval Latin was a liturgical language, and was largely a second language (not really anyone's first language). It didn't have native speakers really (save rare cases where people chose to raise their children speaking Latin, but that was extremely rare). Mediaeval Latin was able to borrow from languages such as Old High German, Old Dutch, etc. but Frankish ? Please check on this. Online Etymology states Old French from Frankish for heron, but they say the earliest form was hairo. Leasnam (talk) 04:31, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
Different sources may use "Mediaeval Latin" differently. I hold with the camp that sees Mediaeval Latin beginning where the Romance languages emerge. Others do not, so maybe we need to clarify here what Midiaeval Latin means Leasnam (talk) 04:35, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
Okay, I can see where you are coming from with this. There is a eleventh century attest of hairo in Mediaeval Latin. My bad. This looks good. Good work. :) Leasnam (talk) 04:44, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
Haha, well that was a journey. Yeah, ML is extremely vague. If I have an attestation from 8th century, I still have to call it Medieval Latin. I think I've actually yet to find an word where the OF attestation predates the "ML" one. --Victar (talk) 05:00, 29 May 2017 (UTC)


Hey ! I saw you added some Descendants to *waiþijaną. I am aware that Ingvaeonic languages regularly convert class 3 weak verbs into class 2, but are you sure Old Dutch and Old High German did (*waiþijaną is a weak 1, btw...) ? I would expect these to come from *waiþōną. Leasnam (talk) 22:11, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

And what happened to the Icelandic and Faroese descendants on the page ? Leasnam (talk) 22:11, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, forgot to note that on the entry. I accidently created a duplicate of your entry, and forgot to re-integrate those. Happens when two people are simultaneously working on the same family of entries. =P --Victar (talk) 22:21, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Really, I'm not sure how supported a Proto-Germanic reconstruction is. Weak class 2 was very productive, so every class 2 weak verb can potentially be formed in each language individually and this doesn't present any evidence for a PG reconstruction. I don't know how the productivity of weak class 1 developed, but it wasn't entirely unproductive in Proto-Germanic times. So really, the different formations represent two independent formations, not a common inheritance. —CodeCat 22:48, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
That's sort of my point. Old English wǣþan and Old Norse veiða point to a weak class 1 verb. The weak 2 could have been formed from the noun later, and they shifted in meaning too to "feed; graze". Leasnam (talk) 00:28, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
I don't think the meanings shifted, as you find this dual meaning in pretty much all forms, centered around "to acquire food". --Victar (talk) 00:58, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

On another note, I'm not quite sure what the PIE root would be for all theses entries. Is the verb denominal? Is the noun root *woyh₁-t-ós, *woyh₁-tis, *woyh₁-teh₂? --Victar (talk) 00:15, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Um, the root would be *weyh₁- of course. —CodeCat 16:42, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Obviously (I created that entry), but where is the -t- originating from, a root extention, or a suffix, like -tis, or both? --Victar (talk) 17:00, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Regional adjectives[edit]

Hey there, you seem to be mistaken about German terminology. "Hamburger" and "ravensberger" are solely adjectives and don't double as names for languages (so unlike e.g. 'Scottish' and 'Chinese', which can do both in English). However, I'm wondering why you are using German terms instead of English ones in the first place. The normal English ending for names ending in -berg seems to be -ish, not 100% sure about names ending in -land, but as a native speaker you'll know this better than me. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 09:53, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, @Korn. It's pretty common to use native dialect names in English, well, because we otherwise don't have names for them, cf. French dialects. So in English, you could use Hamburgisch or Hamburger interchangeably, but you wouldn't try and nativize them, i.e. "Hamburgian". That all said, if you think Hamburgisch and Ravensbergisch are better than Hamburger and Ravensberger, from a German perspective, I have no problem changing them. Incidentally, my mother speaks a dialect close to Ravensberger/Ravensbergisch, thus my personal interest. --Victar (talk) 10:24, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Ah, the region around Ravensberg (northern East-Westfalia) is an interesting region with colourful variations, nice. You make a good point for using native terms, but if you're talking about Low German, High German terms aren't native. E.g. German "Münsterländisch" would natively be "Mönsterlannsk" in the respective dialect and something else in other Low German. As for the difference between "Ravensberger" and "Ravensbergisch": Ravensbergich is a nominalised adjective meaning "pertaining to or alike to Ravensberg", and functions as a language name when used a noun. But the noun Ravensberger (as opposed to the declined adjective ravensberger) designates an inhabitant, as in English (cf. Londoner, New Yorker, Dubliner etc.). Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 11:14, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
@Korn: True. I should have been more clear. By "native", I meant native to the county, i.e. German. As with French dialects, we use the French names for the dialects, and not specifically the dialect's own name for itself, i.e. Champenois, not Champaignat.
I understand the meaning difference between -isch and -er, but In German, you can also say "Hamburger Platt", which English can is happy to absorb as "Hamburger dialect", as testified in the Wiki article. Anyway, I'm happy to change them to "Hamburgisch".
Westphalia has a lot of underappreciated regional culture. My uncle still plays Schaopskopp every week with his buddies, drinking beer and speaking Plattdüütsk. And when I visit, it would be all the Spargel and Schinken I could eat. =) --Victar (talk) 19:09, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
You say hamburger Platt but you don't just say hamburger. Thinking of a way to express the problem in English with its lacking inflection of adjectives, I'd put it like this: You can say California's dialect in English, but it'd be unnatural and confusing to tag a word with California's instead of Californian. Of course 'California's English' isn't the usual way to say it, but I think this construction serves to exemplify the point. Other than that: Hooray for game nights. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 21:11, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
@Korn: Well, Hamburger really equals Californian, not California's, and regardless, we're talking about English absorbing a German name and English doesn't really care about German syntax. =) Nonetheless, I've fixed up all the entries I could find. --Victar (talk) 21:26, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

On another note, I've been using these documents as guides. Are they up to par in your opinion?

--Victar (talk) 21:26, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

In what regard? If it's about names to be used, I see no issue, though there's some dialects in the first list which I'd split or merge. For example I don't think there's much point in splitting up East Westfalian into more than general 'East Westfalian' and 'Lippish'. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 22:09, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
@Korn: Most importantly the split of (West) Low Saxon and East Low Saxon, and the split of (West) Low Saxon into 4 distinct branches, as shown in the first link. --Victar (talk) 22:37, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Oh god, no, most certainly not, no. This bizarre notion of making a west-east split along the Elbe is completely void of any reasonable foundation and I haven't got any idea who came up with it and why. Brandenburg and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern very well have dialects which are mostly or even completely identical with those in the "west". Sure, Brandenburg tends to use monophthongs, but really, if you're gonna draw a dialectal line between [ɛɪ̯] and [eː], you might just as well give up the notion of dialectal areas and only separate them village by village. As for the west: Northern Low German is usually differentiable from the southern forms. Bit more difficult to draw a sharp line between East- and Westfalian, but you certainly can delineate two such dialect groups in some form or another. Naming the ones west of the Ems river extra is nothing I agree with, which is especially irksome because in a less-thinking moment I caused them to be separated here on Wiktionary. The "Dutch" dialects usually are similar enough to some dialect or other in Germany that the criterion of separation is somewhat arbitrary, though that's probably true for almost every neighbouring Low German dialects you compare. You could argue to split off some dialect groups from both Westfalian and Northern, but these would then still occur on both sides of the border (e.g. East-Frisian, and the dialect of the German county of Bentheim seems to be a form of what the Dutch call Twents). Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 12:26, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
I'm currently struggling with understanding why -sche removed the Westfalian language code wep from English Wiktionary. The divide between Northern Low Saxon and Westfalian seems pretty clear in every source I've read, and to call them all "German Low German" seems grossly simplified. May as well throw Plautdietsch in there, for all its inaccuracy. Also, to divide of Northern Low German into "German" and "Dutch" strikes me as dividing dialects by orthography, which, as you say, is close to arbitrary. We need to create a Low Saxon dialect tree on Wiktionary and deliberate on what names to use, which language codes to add and remove, and their positions on the tree. --Victar (talk) 13:14, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
I've expressed that I would move Plautdietsch into general Low German before. While the differences between Westfalian and non-Westfalian are clear, I don't think the difference between any two Low German dialects is big enough to benefit from putting them into different language codes. And on the flipside, 'Westfalian' is a term covering dialects more dissimilar than the entirety of Low German lects between Wilhelmshaven and Pasewalk. And yes, placing the Dutch variants extra is the result of nds.Wikipedia bickering about orthography and breaking up over it. We shouldn't have tainted our system with their internal problems. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 22:19, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Just BTW: The correct term would be Hamburger Platt (with capital H) as spellings like hamburger Platt are proscribed since ca. 1900. And Hamburger does rather equal California's instead of Californian (adjective), though Californians' (from the noun Californian) could be even more fitting. Instead of "Platt" several other terms could be used: Mundart, Dialekt (proscribed since ca. 1900: Dialect), Plattdeutsch (Niederdeutsch). And a wording like (die) Hamburger Mundart shows that it's not an adjective *hamburg together with -er (strong and mixed masc. nom. sg. ending or fem. dat. sg. ending) but a non-inflecting term Hamburger (or hamburger). - 10:39, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
I disagree Mr. Unsigned Commenter from Paderborn. Hamburger is not possessive and thus not equal to California's. Californian, the noun, is a more apt equivalent. --Victar (talk) 15:13, 12 November 2017 (UTC)


Hi Victar ! I've undone your edit, since styriġa is already shown as an alternative form Leasnam (talk) 16:43, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

@Leasnam: Than remove the duplicate alternative form instead of undoing everything. You also undid the descendants tree I added. --Victar (talk) 16:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Oh sorry about that, I didn't see anything else in that edit Leasnam (talk) 18:09, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Category:Proto-Iranian words suffixed with *-akas[edit]

Hi Victar. I noticed that you marked this category for deletion. Please empty it out first, then I will be glad to delete it. Thanks. —Internoob 22:50, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

@Internoob: Done. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 03:39, 1 January 2018 (UTC)


Hello. Do you want to be an admin? I think it could help you in your work; you do a lot of page moves. --Rerum scriptor (talk) 16:27, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

@Rerum scriptor: Nah, I'm fine without it. Thanks though. --Victar (talk) 16:35, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Would you like template editor access so you can edit MOD:languages and its data submodules? —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 00:20, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
@AryamanA: Hmmm, I think I'll be OK for the time being. Thanks, though. Now, if there was a role specifically for moving articles without a redirect, but alas. --Victar (talk) 05:29, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Being an admin does not mean you have to use all the tools given to you. Moving pages without leaving a redirect means less work for the admins that would otherwise have to delete the residuals.__Gamren (talk) 11:46, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
@AryamanA, yeah, I think I could use template editor access. Not being able to fix bugs is annoying. --Victar (talk) 19:56, 16 March 2018 (UTC)


Why did you make Iranian root *sék-s-o-s

   Indo-Iranian: *sakšas
       Iranian: *saxšah  

8 August 2017‎ and then delete without any explanation? (Irman (talk) 16:51, 24 February 2018 (UTC))

Transliteration parameter and Middle Chinese[edit]

Since you are cleaning up the entries, could I ask you to reformat Middle Chinese like this when you come across them? —suzukaze (tc) 06:18, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: Sure. --Victar (talk) 07:54, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c, did you want to go trough these, Category:links likely containing transcriptions in tr? --Victar (talk) 04:03, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
I will look at them later. —suzukaze (tc) 22:19, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Typing in difficult scripts[edit]

Do you use some kind of typing aid to generate the original script from a transliteration, e.g. in case of Manichaean, or do you simply copy and paste the letters one by one? Automatic reverse transliteration would work well for scripts with a ts= parameter. --Vahag (talk) 12:21, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan: {{chars|xmn|<word to transliterate here>}} or {{chars|xpr|<word to transliterate here>|sc=Mani}}. The documentation says more. —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 13:08, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
@JohnC5: thanks! Inscriptional Parthian and Pahlavi too could use an automatic transliteration module and a typing aid. --Vahag (talk) 13:23, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

delete template in transcluded pages[edit]

When you add the {{delete}} template to a page, it's transcluded to every page that transcludes the page. I don't appreciate having to look through an entire Beer Parlour subpage to find the template that's marking it and the main Beer parlour page for speedy deletion. Please look at "whatlinkshere" and get rid of the transclusions before you mark a template or module for speedy deletion. Thanks Chuck Entz (talk) 00:53, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Ah, I forgot I shared a test in the Beer Parlour. --Victar (talk) 00:57, 11 March 2018 (UTC)


Hi Victar. Do you know anything about Sanskrit: पत्रम् (patram) etymology?! Thanks.--Calak (talk) 21:14, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@Calak:, it's supposedly from *péth₂r̥ (feather), with the meaning of leaf from the plumage of a tree. --Victar (talk) 01:21, 13 March 2018 (UTC)


What is intended to be shown in that entry is the noun stem, not the verbal root. For the latter purpose, I believe {{PIE root}} does just as good a job. So the page is telling you that the noun is in fact *dʰrúǰʰ & the nom. sg. is *dʰrúkš, which is reflected in the lemma-form of both the descendants. Since *dʰrúǰʰ is a noun, it should have an accent. I added the stem because it differs substantially from the nom. sg form (and isn't required in a more regular noun, like, say *ĉasás). Surely if you derive drúh & druj from *dʰrúkš without mentioning the stem it will confuse the readers. -- माधवपंडित (talk) 14:46, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

@माधवपंडित: 1) we no longer create stem entries, so linking to one is bad form. 2) we now create category pages for PII and PIR entries roots. {{PIE root}} is great for PIE derived words, but does not work for non-PIE words. It also allows us to do things like auto-generated related words lists. So please, do not use the depreciated |stem= parameter. I hope that clears it up. @AryamanA can also expound on this change if you have any further questions. --Victar (talk) 14:54, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
It still leads to loss of information. Somewhere, *dʰrúǰʰ needs to be mentioned as a stem. As I said before, this root noun is unlike a plain a-stem noun and its inflected form differs very much from its stem. I understand the formatting issues of using a depreciated parameter but providing an extra bit of information cannot hurt. -- माधवपंडित (talk) 15:06, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
@माधवपंडित: In this case, I think mentioning the stem somewhere in the entry is necessary because this noun has a very unconventional inflection. I think perhaps {{iir-noun}} could benefit from keeping the |stem= parameter for athematic nouns. The information should at the very least be somewhere in the entry. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 15:42, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
@AryamanA, माधवपंडित: I think the proper place would be in the declension table, as done in other PIE languages. I haven't created one for this type of stem yet, but I can put it together. Perhaps for now, it can simply be placed in the etymology, if you feel the root category does not suffice. --Victar (talk) 15:58, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Very well. Thanks for implementing the changes! -- माधवपंडित (talk) 16:30, 13 April 2018 (UTC)


Hi Victar. Can you create this Sanskrit word and its etymology? Thanks.--Calak (talk) 10:42, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

@Calak, not really my bag, so kicking this request to @AryamanA. --Victar (talk) 14:55, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
@AryamanA, Victar Thanks. It has also Iranian cognates Kurdish xwē, xwā and Balochi wād "salt".--Calak (talk) 14:59, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
@Calak: I made the entry finally. I feel that this word was not inherited from PIE, but was a later formation within Classical Sanskrit. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 00:57, 5 June 2018 (UTC)


This Rigvedic word is, apparently, a counterexample to the kṣ-rule of PIE thorn cluster reflexes. The expected form would be *jákṣati, and it derives from PIA *ȷ́ágẓʰati which contains a voiced cluster. Does it mean that the PIE thorn cluster reflexes were not yet simplified to -kṣ- in Rigvedic? --Kwékwlos 20:50, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos: {{R:iir:Lipp:2009|253}} goes into this word specifically, but essentially, it's simply a surviving archaism, nothing we see with any consistency. The Rigveda for the most part definitely exhibits the kṣ-merger. Also, just to point out, several MIA lects, like Pali and Gandhari, are not descended from any attested dialects of OIA, so there were non-kṣ-merger dialects out there at the same time of the Rigveda. --Victar (talk) 03:59, 20 June 2018 (UTC)


The Old Frisian verb Hakkia is attested and is found hereː Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 04:40, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

@Leornendeealdenglisc: Not the most reliable source. Best I can tell, only tohakkia is actually attested. @Leasnam? --Victar (talk) 16:44, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Incidentally, I added {{R:ofs:AfW}} for you, if you're going to start adding Old Frisian entries. --Victar (talk) 20:38, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
If it wasn't attested, there would have been an asterisk symbol. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 23:27, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
@Leornendeealdenglisc: That would be sound logic, but as I said, Köbler is not always reliable, and as it isn't a peer reviewed work, shouldn't really be used as a source anyhow. I recommend you use the {{R:ofs:OFED}}, {{R:ofs:AfW}}, and {{R:ofs:Bremmer:2009}}. --Victar (talk) 01:51, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
So what if it isn't peer reviewed. It doesn't contradict other sources and goes along with them. As well, I check with my grammar of Old Frisian by Adley H. Cummins. Further, I would argue that Koebler is reliable because he cites his references hereː Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 05:19, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
@Leornendeealdenglisc: Haha, clearly you're new here or would know how anal we are about sources. Köbler is what we call "original research", and as such, generally shouldn't be used as a source, certainly not as a primary source. Please, take the advice of someone who has been at it a long time, and use published works as sources. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 06:07, 22 June 2018 (UTC)


Buddy, Jeva is attested. It's in Adley H. Cummins' grammar of Old Frisian, page 117.Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 05:53, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

@Leornendeealdenglisc: See sources on page. j is generally academic embellishment, not the actual contemporary orthography used, and many papers actually prefer i for Old Frisian. I don't really have a horse it in either way, but you're welcome to pose the question in the Beer Parlour. --Victar (talk) 06:15, 22 June 2018 (UTC)


Apparently bypasses Grassmann's law, as both components are aspirated. Though it involves earlier *-tH- in PIIr. so I don't know if it really applies in Rigvedic. --Kwékwlos 13:32, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos, such cases are usually either secondary or from leveling. --Victar (talk) 15:01, 24 June 2018 (UTC)


I get the impression that you do a lot of things related to Iranian languages; do you have any insight here? —Suzukaze-c 04:49, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

psu code[edit]

You've defined this as both a family and a language. DTLHS (talk) 22:35, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Can that not be done? I recall @-sche saying that it's not a big deal. If it is, I defer to @AryamanA in naming it. --Victar (talk) 22:40, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Maybe it's not a problem. Module:data consistency check complains about it. @Erutuon DTLHS (talk) 22:41, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
I believe our previous discussion was about languages and families having the same name, which I had thought was a problem (and which WT:LANG had advised against, at the time), but which turned out to be alright. Having the same code is another matter; how is {{der}} etc to know whether the language or the family is meant? - -sche (discuss) 23:24, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Ah, gotcha. Should I go ahead and rename it to inc-psu? FYI, it was created so we could place the language family inc-pah below it, instead of it floating at the root. --Victar (talk) 00:25, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
If the family code is to be kept, then yes, it should be differentiated. Is anything else going to be categorized as a Sauraseni Prakrit-family language, though, besides Category:Pahari languages? I don't see a problem with just putting that category directly into Category:Old Indo-Aryan languages. - -sche (discuss) 05:38, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
That would not work for {{#invoke:family tree|show|inc-pro}}. --Victar (talk) 13:44, 4 August 2018 (UTC)


The edits I made on *fehu were based off the information on feudum, which says it was borrowed from Old French/Old Occitan. Not saying my edits were good; just trying to maybe clear up why I made them. Anyways, thanks for correcting all my mistakes. I appreciate it. — Julia • formerly Gormflaith • 00:09, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, key is just try not to delete valid data when converting to {{desctree}}, especially sources. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 02:23, 13 August 2018 (UTC)


Hi, I'm new to wiktionary. You've been correcting some of my formatting errors my Proto-Slavic contributions. I have some questions if you can answer them:

- In one entry you used the labels {{top3}} and {{bottom}} to mark the top and bottom of it's descendants list. I've seen others used {{top2}}. What does the "3" mean and why doesn't the bottom marker have a number?

- You've also made changes like for example: * Russian: {{l|ru|блеснуть}} to * {{desc|ru|блеснуть}}. How do I do this for Sorbian which is divided into upper and lower? I don't think that Sorbian has a languages identifier so I can only do:

- How should I distinguish between Old Church Slavonic, Church Slavonic, and Russian/Serbian/etc. Church Slavonic? Greenismean2016 (talk) 05:04, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Greenismean2016, thanks for writing to me. 1. The numbers in {{top2}} and {{top3}} signify the column count, so because Slavic has 3 branches, {{top3}} is the best choice. 2. Sorbian unfortunately doesn't currently have a language code, so for now, you just need to write it out. 3. We consider Old Church Slavonic, Church Slavonic, Old Bulgarian, etc, all one language under the single code cu. I hope that answered your questions. Please let me know if you have any others. --Victar (talk) 07:20, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
While I really appreciate Greenismean's work with Proto-Slavic, there are many copypastos from Vasmer, some formatting inconsistencies ({{desc}} vs. {{l}}, {{qual}} vs. plain brackets with italics), {{rfdef}} is often omitted, several entries lack references, and some etymologies are morphologically impossible (diff, diff). It's also unfortunate that he doesn't always complete or amend the descendant entries when he's created a proto-entry (*bordavъka > diff; *ęčьmy > diff). Lots of good work, but more rigour would be in order. Per utramque cavernam 12:16, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for your feedback. I will try to go back and fix these entries. Just to make sure I understand:
There are some entries, for example *merti, which are listed with more than one Proto-Balto-Slavic form. In these cases I use: from {inh|sla-pro|ine-bsl-pro|*reconstruction 1}, {m|ine-bsl-pro|*reconstruction 2}. Is this correct?
Should I use {{qual}} or plain italics when labeling a word as archaic, dialectal, obsolete?
When copying and pasting from Vasmer, is it only the characters (a, c, e, i, j, o, p, x, y) that are identical in both Latin and Cyrillic that I need to worry about?
In the future, I will update the etymologies of descendant entries when I create a Proto-entry. --Greenismean2016
- About using {{inh}}, then {{m}}: yes, I think that's correct.
- I'd use {{qual}}.
- I'm chiefly concerned about Latin <i> vs. Cyrillic <і>; <a> vs. <а> and <o> vs. <о> are also a problem sometimes, but less often I'd say. I don't remember encountering problems with the other letters you mentioned, but it's good to keep an eye out. Also, Polish/West Slavic <ł> [U+0142 – LATIN SMALL LETTER L WITH STROKE] is incorrectly rendered as <ɫ> [U+026B – LATIN SMALL LETTER L WITH MIDDLE TILDE]. In general, I would be very cautious with copy pasting heavily diacriticised West Slavic forms (Slovincian words, for example).
- Thank you!
Again, I think you're doing good work, and I hope you'll stay with us. By the way, we have several requests at Wiktionary:Requested entries (Proto-Slavic), and many red links at. If you're interested in taking care of them, be my guest. Per utramque cavernam 09:14, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Per utramque cavernam's replies. --Victar (talk) 16:19, 21 October 2018 (UTC)