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I, for one, would like to thank you for great work you're doing adding the intermediary PIA forms and missing PII reconstructions. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask! --Victar (talk) 16:02, 19 June 2018 (UTC)Reply
The Wiktionary Project is a team effort, so having a way to communicate with contributors is essential. Rigveda is OIA, which includes all the Sanskrit dialects. PIA includes includes both OIA and Mitanni. Although the line between PIA and OIA is rather blurry, as Mitanni is scantily attested (we mostly only know about the retention of diphthongs), at the very least we can include archaisms found in MIA that we don't see in Sanskrit, i.e. no kṣ-merger. --Victar (talk) 18:53, 19 June 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion
If an entry can be reconstructed, please do not null out {{desc}}, as you did here. Best to simply leave it blank if you cannot yourself. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 17:11, 17 June 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Please don't change {{inh|hi|sa}} to {{der|hi|sa}}. For convenience we take Sanskrit to be all Old Indo-Aryan, so Hindi is in our system a direct descendant of Sanskrit (even though in actuality it may be descended from a particular OIA dialect that is not attested). —AryamanA(मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)22:48, 22 June 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments1 person in discussion
Hey Kwékwlos, please don't reference earlier forms when the later form is a predictable outcome, like the loss of laryngeals before *ǵ (Lubotsky's law). We only do that for random outcomes, like a metathesis. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 00:59, 2 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
The accent shift in PIA on i/u-steams is also predictable. Please don't reference earlier forms for that either. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 05:42, 7 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
Was hoping I wouldn't have to bring this up again, but please don't add earlier forms to etymologies when the outcome is predictable. --{{victar|talk}}06:25, 11 January 2020 (UTC)Reply
If you skip morphological steps in a etymology, it's correct to use "ultimately from". Please don't delete those. Thanks! --Victar (talk) 18:45, 7 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Please stop changing language codes on entries. If someone used a particular language code in an etymology or descendants tree, there is probably a reason and you should ask them for going around changing them. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 13:48, 8 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 6 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
The prevailing standard is just "From {{bor|hi|xx}}." Not sure about other languages but that's what I've always done for Hindi. My reasoning is that it automatically categorizes into a borrowing category so the "Borrowing/Borrowed from" is redundant. —AryamanA(मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)01:43, 11 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
@AryamanA, typing in "Borrowed from" is pretty standard for most languages. I much prefer it because it's useful information that is otherwise lost -- most people aren't going to look at the categories to find that out. --Victar (talk) 03:18, 11 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
@Victar, right, it does provide an emphasis for distinguishing borrowed words from derived words instead of just scrolling to the bottom for the category. --Kwékwlos10:12, 11 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
@Victar: And that is what the template used to have automatically before the text was removed. I agree in principle, but I make a lot of Hindi entries and want to save time typing. But I'll use "Borrowed from" from now on if you insist. —AryamanA(मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)14:54, 11 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
@Victar, How do you prove that it applies to PIA and not PII? Ancient Greek already has it. And also, forms like PII *ĵʰuĵʰáwti would yield PIA *źuźʰáwti (Sanskrit जुहोति(juhóti)), which looks strange as PIA *ź occurs only with aspiration or in clusters. So I do see Grassmann's law as necessary in PII. --Kwékwlos16:13, 19 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
It's widely accepted that the Grassmann's law that applies to Greek is separate innovation from the one that is found in Sanskrit. One example of how we know it didn't apply to PII is because we find *x- for *kʰ-Cʰ in PIr. --Victar (talk) 16:26, 19 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
Kwékwlos, please address this entry and the other entries you created. All proto entries should be sourced, otherwise they may be nominated for deletion. --Victar (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
You're making quite a few mistakes with your Proto-Anatolian reconstructions. Please do some more research before continuing. --Victar (talk) 08:51, 29 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 6 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
RUKI was not triggered by laryngeals. Instead, it was an active rule that lasted well into the development of PII languages after the loss of laryngeals. You could argue that "syllabic laryngeals" triggered RUKI as well, but that's not currently how we reconstruct PII as we do not reconstruct syllabic laryngeals. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 17:11, 24 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
Forgive me, but the reflexes show (š/ṣ), so I thought that the reconstruction needed an *š. I do note that Nuristani keeps the *s instead of Indic and Iranian. Sorry if I had to disappoint you; it was my mistake, but please, in the descendants section, use desc instead of cog. Thanks. --Kwékwlos17:16, 24 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
When a reconstruction has a cite attached to it, do not change the reconstruction. I've had to revert you several times for that now. Please stop. --Victar (talk) 13:09, 2 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
Rua, the accentuation is present on the first vowel, because the verbal suffix *-ti/*-tei does not get an accent (at least, in the present third person form). We know that there is one vowel preceding the verbal suffix, and it should be accented like in PIE. I haven't seen a case of *-ti receiving an accent on the *i. The verbal suffix is an example of an accentless marker; it does not receive an accent. --Kwékwlos11:29, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
Oh, so at some stage, Balto-Slavic changed the standard verb ending to *-tei? Are there any cases in which that ending receives an accent? --Kwékwlos12:17, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
Proto-Slavic *berťi has the accent on the ending. This probably reflects a retention from Balto-Slavic, but I wasn't sure so I left the BS form unaccented. The BS infinitive comes from a case form of *-tis, and I believe it was an oblique case form so in theory the ending should always be accented originally. But Balto-Slavic has many accent-movement rules so the PIE situation doesn't generally get preserved in BS. —Rua (mew) 12:21, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
Should have discarded the accent, thanks for that. Though I do believe in an innovation in Slavic if Baltic evidence does not corroborate. --Kwékwlos12:24, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
Balto-Slavic accentology is a huge, messy, muddy topic, so I advise you to stay well away from it. Even modern linguists haven't worked it all out yet. —Rua (mew) 12:26, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Per my earlier petition above, please do not add earlier forms to an etymology unless there is some unpredicted irregular intermediary form. Case in point with the Pre-Germanic forms you are adding. --Victar (talk) 18:15, 22 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Inflection and declension sections serve the same purpose and should not appear side by side in an entry. It's one or the other. If one of these sections already exists, use that one instead of creating another. —Rua (mew) 19:15, 22 November 2018 (UTC)Reply
Whoops, hi! My sources are from JLect and Nevskiy's Miyakoan dictionary. The problem with Japanese kana is that there is no standard orthography to denote all Ryukyuan sounds, and that the pronunciations can be found in the Wikipedia pages. But making references is hard, it does take too much time. Kwékwlos (talk) 06:59, 30 November 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I added the asterisk to *यन्तुर्(*yantúr) because the nominative form is unattested and it should not be removed. I've also warned you about this several times now, DO NOT change cited forms. Please do not continue to do this. Lastly, *yaćśáti is the correct reconstruction, not **yaśćáti. The development was *sḱ > *sĉ > *ŝĉ > *śś > *ćś > c(c)h. --{{victar|talk}}05:55, 8 December 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hi, I've seen that you've been using {{ja-readings}} in non-Japanese entries. I think there should be new templates made for each of the Japonic lects or a language-neutral template made. The links produced by this template are currently linking to Japanese, which is not right. — justin(r)leung{ (t...) | c=› }06:57, 9 December 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Kwékwlos, though I appreciate you trying to be a completionist, if a compound or suffixed word has blue links to its elements, please don't go in and put the whole etymology in the each word in there. It's redundant and just clutters up entries. --{{victar|talk}}14:41, 14 December 2018 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
I've seen several mistakes in your recent changes even though I'm not super-familiar with Proto-Balto-Slavic and such. For example, you have changed o to a in Proto-Balto-Slavic etymologies even though the convention that appears to be followed here is to reconstruct *o, and in some cases you appear to be mechanically constructing Proto-Balto-Slavic etymologies by carrying the reconstructed PIE form forward. In another case, in Proto-Slavic *ložiti, you put ź which is clearly wrong (it should be g, both based on the PIE form and the Slavic form). One change that looks glaringly suspect is renaming Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/snusós to Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/snuséh₂. @Rua, Victar, JohnC5 Can you review some of his/her recent changes and let me know what you think? Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 02:01, 14 January 2019 (UTC)Reply
At the very least, the rename of that page without any further changes to the sourcing is wrong, because now it says that Ringe reconstructs the new form, which is clearly not true. As for Balto-Slavic, the norm is to reconstruct short *a, since no Balto-Slavic languages show any distinction between *o and *a. Derksen still distinguishes them, but gives no justification. —Rua (mew) 15:32, 14 January 2019 (UTC)Reply
We don't tolerate reconstructions such as *wʔitis, so it's natural to follow orthographic conventions and reconstruct it as *witis. Different authors use different reconstructions, but we can cite their alternative forms while converting them to standard Wiktionary conventions. I know I may be imperfect, but I am still learning! Kwékwlos (talk) 15:39, 14 January 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Thanks for you valuable work in Proto-Japonic entries (as usual), but this reconstruction is confusing. How can the k > f change in Miyako be explained, as k should only become f before original /u/, not an original /o/? mellohi! (僕の乖離) 19:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
Normally, sequences of the type CuCuCV in Japanese (such as kusuri) are realized in Japonic as *CuCoCV (c.f. *kusori). The case in Yaeyama is straightforward: *kï would be expected instead of ku in tsïkuri. Proto-Miyako seems to have innovated via *CuCoCV > *CuCuCV, as in Japanese. For Northern Ryukyuan, Okinawan has the same ku where *chi would be expected if one assumes *tukuru. Therefore, *tukoru should be the reconstructed form as it regularly correlates with *kusori. Kwékwlos (talk) 22:20, 13 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Please do not sweepingly reconstruct these as /wa/, the four-vowel Proto-Japonic theory that leads insinuates that all of these must derive from /wa/ has been obsolete for many years now. Pellard 2013 and 2018, Frellesvig and Whitman 2010, Russell 2006, and Vovin all reconstruct Proto-Japonic /o/. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 19:36, 23 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
You're continuing to add absurd, unsourced etymologies, like at Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/pirə and Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/pitə (both of which I have removed), as well as other content unlikely to meet WT:CFI, like Sanskrit उचिना(ucinā). None of this is acceptable. From now on, if you want to add an etymology for a protolanguage or create a reconstruction page, include a source, and make sure any mainspace entry you create is attested. If you're unsure, you can always ask first. If, however, you persist in the problematic behaviour described above, you will be blocked. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds15:03, 17 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
Well, the notion that initial w goes back to *b is due to Vovin's Proto-Japonic reconstruction which assumes a relationship within the discredited Altaic family. It was made to explain similarities such as *ban[u] (now *wanu) "I" and Turkish ben "id." on the basis of Southern Ryukyuan forms such as Miyako ban. Even Proto-Ryukyuan points to an original *w, which disproves the evidence that *b existed as an initial consonant in Proto-Japonic. Similarly, we don't reconstruct *d for initial *y because back in the 1500s, a group of Korean fishermen recorded the name of Yonaguni with a zy- sound, clearly a transitory phase to d, a fortition common to the language (compare *ki > *tsi > *ti) and in Sino-Japanese words. Kwékwlos (talk) 20:35, 19 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
Granted, Wikipedia is very down on Altaic as a theory. However, in my reading, I haven't gotten the impression that Altaic is wholly discredited. That said, I don't think Altaic is even all that relevant -- there is evidence separately within Korean and within Japanese for /w/ ↔ /p/ variation. For now, I've reworded a bit, and I've removed the mention of /*b/, since that's just confusing without substantially more context, which I don't think would fit very well in this etym section. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig20:17, 28 May 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments4 people in discussion
You stated in your pagemove reason on *eka that Proto-Japonic /i/ would become /n/ in front of /k/ word-initially in the Ryukyuan languages. Any other examples of this? mellohi! (僕の乖離) 07:18, 27 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
Let me see: We know that word-initial *u assimilates in Ryukyuan, such as *uma > mma, but that *omi > umi or un. If it was *e, then we would expect /i/ not assimilating to the second consonant. It seems that a lot of PJ words that have word-initial /i/ reflexes in Japanese begin as */e/. I would personally consider *eka as one. Kwékwlos (talk) 08:24, 27 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
Are there any examples you can provide of *i undergoing those assimilations to /n/ specifically in front of /k/? The assimilations you provide are in front of nasals. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 19:06, 27 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
I have yet to find a case in which Japanese initial /i/ corresponds to Japonic *i. So far, can't think of any. Sorry if my extrapolation was wrong. Kwékwlos (talk) 19:09, 27 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
(chiming in belatedly -- *uma > mma is probably not a great example, since this appears to be derived from Middle Chinese 馬 (MC maeX) in such a way that the initial /m/ was emphasized -- even mainland Japanese may have been realized as mma, and the kana realizations うま and むま were both in use during the Heian period. See also mainland Japanese 梅(ume, “plum”), which likely also came from Middle Chinese and had a similar phonological path with うめ and むめ in free variation.) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig18:07, 15 July 2019 (UTC)Reply
@Eirikr, Kwékwlos, Mellohi!: Okinawa for 膿(umi, “pus”) is ʔnmi (< PR *umi. Clearly not any Chinese word. In addition, Yamatohama /ʔumi/ (id.; source here; also can go from PR *omi; pron also means 'sea'); Nakijin /ʔumi:/; (id.; source here)
I don't think PR *i- assimilates. Any thoughts in 2023 @Kwékwlos?
Latest comment: 5 years ago7 comments2 people in discussion
It gets a bit complicated with Hirt's law in nominals. Usually, the accent retraction happens and then the word is converted to the fixed accent paradigm. But there are also cases where the retraction appears to have been undone and the mobile paradigm restored, like Lithuanian sūnùs and Proto-Slavic *sy̑nъ, both of which are mobile. In the case of *źírˀna your change appears to be correct, but this is just a heads-up that Hirt's law doesn't always apply the way you expect. —Rua (mew) 09:57, 27 May 2019 (UTC)Reply
In Slavic, at least according to Jasanoff, the accent on the stem is from the accusative form, where the stem accent is a regular inheritance from Balto-Slavic. The same substitution is found in o-stems and i-stems as well. The Lithuanian accent of i- and u-stems thus reflects the original situation, while the stem accent in Lithuanian o-stems is explained as coming from the neuters, which merged into the masculines.
Olander, on the other hand, posits that the accent should have been on the stem in the o-, i- and u-stems in Balto-Slavic. The ending accent of the i- and u-stems in Lithuanian would then be irregular, while the stem accent of Slavic is regular, as is the stem accent of the a-stems in Lithuanian.
So you can see there isn't really a clear picture of the situation. The rules for when a form in the mobile paradigm should be stem-accented or ending-accented aren't clear, so different linguists come up with different explanations, that predict different things, and then come up with different explanations for the forms that don't fit the pattern. I can't say which of these two is right, but I find Jasanoff's explanation a bit more plausible. There is evidence to suggest that the o-stems originally did not have the same ending for the nominative and accusative in Proto-Slavic, because there are some masculine names that end in -o in Slavic, and there is also the Old Novgorodian ending -e (which would result from -o after soft stems). This appears to point to an original nominative ending *-o for early Slavic, which was mostly replaced by the accusative ending but not completely. Olander also cannot explain the final accent of the i- and u-stems; there is no obvious model that this could be taken from, other than the ā-stems. The stem accent of a-stems, on the other hand, is very well explained by the influx of neuter nouns in Jasanoff's position.
Now, as to why the word for "son" is mobile and not fixed, this is explained by Jasanoff with the relative ordering of sound changes. According to him, the split of PIE words into fixed and mobile paradigms, and the subsequent redistribution of stem-accented and end-accented forms, happened before Hirt's law. Thus, when Hirt's law operated, this resulted in more stem-accented forms, but some ending-accented forms remained (i.e. those in which the ending had more than one syllable). Jasanoff then says that such paradigms could either be converted to a fixed accent, or, based on the remaining ending-accented forms, the "proper" mobile paradigm could be restored. It is not entirely clear if this restoration occurred by the late Proto-Balto-Slavic period, but for simplicity we can assume that it did.
This restoration only appears to have happened in nouns. In verbs, mobile paradigms do have the retracted accent on the stem in the infinitive, while unretracted infinitives have ending accent. On the other hand, fixed paradigm verbs have stem accent in the infinitive regardless of Hirt's law, apparently by analogy with the present stem. —Rua (mew) 10:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC)Reply
Yes, Balto-Slavic accentuation is quite complicated, and it only gets worse in Slavic. Things are easy enough when all the Balto-Slavic languages agree, but when there is disagreement, there is no single explanation. "Son" is clearly mobile in all the descendants, and it is more economical to assume that this is the inherited situation in Proto-Balto-Slavic than to say that each of them independently innovated the mobile paradigm. So that part is clear, at least. But then the question of whether the accent is on the ending or the stem in the nominative singular is more tricky. —Rua (mew) 10:41, 27 May 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Please do not make up internal (i.e. claiming that Japanese terms are made off of other Japanese terms) etymologies for terms, such as what happened at oishii, unless you have demonstrated sufficient fieldwork backing them up. Thank you. Your Proto-Japonic comparative reconstructions are fine; they are not the subject of this reminder. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 18:18, 31 May 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago16 comments2 people in discussion
Kwékwlos, you've been changing up a lot of the Nuristani descendants, which often correspond to the source given, but not providing any new sources of those allegedly attested forms. Please do so or I will start reverting those changes. --{{victar|talk}}17:53, 6 June 2019 (UTC)Reply
I base it mostly on Strand's dictionary, and they do not list *ti as being part of the verb in Kamviri such as in *éti. Plus, the PN reconstructions given by Strand mostly lack final vowels, and you tend to add them. There is actually no consensus, because no one has come up with a definite reconstruction of PN. Mind if you can help put Strand's source into the references list? Kwékwlos (talk) 17:57, 6 June 2019 (UTC)Reply
Than please take the time to cite with a link. In regards to the separate issue of Proto-Nuristani reconstructions, I try and use published works for those, not Strand's website, which is not peer reviewed. --{{victar|talk}}18:01, 6 June 2019 (UTC)Reply
Kwékwlos, I know you're not accustomed for sourcing things, but ===References=== is for inline references. If you're not adding inline references, which you really should be at all times, they belong under ====Further reading====. --{{victar|talk}}18:13, 6 June 2019 (UTC)Reply
I reverted your edits to *éti. Strand is probably citing the 1sg.pres., not the 3sg.pres., which is why they have no -ti. If you can provide a link that they're in 3sg., I'm happy to restore them. --{{victar|talk}}18:23, 6 June 2019 (UTC)Reply
That's a good point, and looking at it, I may have been citing the 3pl. so I've restored your cited forms, though the link you provided does not work. Please provide a functioning one when you can. --{{victar|talk}}18:48, 6 June 2019 (UTC)Reply
I recommend you hold off on creating Nuristani reconstructions. There is a lot of research that needs to be done first, and again, I will likely delete unsourced reconstructions on sight. --{{victar|talk}}18:32, 11 June 2019 (UTC)Reply
Pinging you on this again. Please don't create Proto-Nuristani reconstructions before we have an established methodology of doing so. --{{victar|talk}}06:28, 11 January 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago10 comments3 people in discussion
Curious about your recent edit to the Proto-Japonic entry for /na/, where you added hypothetical /namuy/. What is that term meant to represent? The Amami term appears to be a compound, where the initial na- may be a shortening of 名(nā). See also the Amami Dialect Dictionary entries for ナー and for ナミン.
What would be the shift from Proto muy to Amami min? Proto Lua error in Module:links at line 217: The specified language Proto-Japonic is unattested, while the given term does not begin with '*' to indicate that it is reconstructed. correlates to Amami mi, for instance, not min.
I think -n is a later addition, probably meaning "also" (< Proto-Ryukyuan *mu, compare Japanese mo) What about Japanese words such as ta ~ tame and ka ~ kami? Also, I noticed that PJ *tay is often cited to have an earlier form *tana, just as *kə < *ko̱no̱r according to Vovin. Kwékwlos (talk) 18:29, 8 July 2019 (UTC)Reply
Interesting about the possible abbreviation of a particle. Would that consistently produce a noun? The semantics are odd...
I'm not sure which Japanese terms you're referring to.
I'm only aware of two possible terms for tame, 為(tame, “sake, reason”) and 溜(tame, “a buildup of concentration or energy; a place where one stores things, particularly dung or other fertilizer; a specific kind of rhythmic affect in certain music”). Neither term has any ta form.
There are more possible matches for kami, as 上(kami, “upper, superior”), 神(kami, “deity, spirit, god”), 紙(kami, “paper”), 髪(kami, “head hair”, as opposed to body hair). However, again, none of these has any ka form.
Regarding Proto-Japonic*tay, there are a few old compounding forms that include tana, such as 掌(tanaura, “palm of the hand”, archaic), 掌(tanagokoro, “palm of the hand”), 手末(tanasue, “tip of the hand, tip of the fingers”, archaic), but in all of these, the na is an apophonic form of possessive particle の(no). There is a separate term 棚(tana, “shelf”), but that appears to be a wholly separate etymon unrelated to Japanese手(te) or Proto-Japonic*tay.
Very interesting, thank you. Digging around in various page histories, I found the relevant edit to the 為 page. @Poketalker, other than MYS 808, are you aware of any other clear instances of this ta? I note too that tame was ⟨tame2⟩, suggesting that ta ("sake, reason") + 目(me₂, “notable aspect of something”) might be a possible derivation. I don't suppose you've run into anything further about that? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig20:23, 8 July 2019 (UTC)Reply
@POKéTalker, thank you! You say, "Never thought tame was a compound in my opinion." What's your take then on the relationship between these synonyms た and ため? Is た a shortening of ため? Is ため derived somehow from た? Or are they unrelated etyma that just happen to have the same first mora and same meaning?
Looking further just at ため, I begin to think this might be a nominalization of the stem of verb たむ, a 下二段活用動詞, of which all the senses have an underlying meaning of "working towards a specific purpose" -- not far from the "reason" sense of ため. See the KDJ entry at Kotobank.
If this derivation holds, we might have た as the ancient root, with む as the common verb-forming suffix that's counterpart to ぶ → modern びる and likely cognate with 目 and 見る, "to seem like, to be like; to make something be like something else". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig16:13, 9 July 2019 (UTC)Reply
@Eirikr: it's up to you if you want to edit the た/ため entries with the possibilities you have. In my opinion, either ta is indeed a shortening of tame or is part of tame. ~ POKéTalker(═◉═) 11:05, 12 July 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion
For terms with multiple etymologies, all headers under the etymology should be at level 4 or higher. Do not change these to level 3 (the same as the ===Etymology XXX=== header), as you did in your recent edit at 強い.
Also, any alternative forms for Japanese are (usually) dependent on reading, which is specific to the etymology. So please do not move alternative forms to the top of the entry, as you did in this other edit to that same entry.
It was easier to revert your structural goofs in various places in the entry, and then re-add your etymology (plus some more details I'd found) in just the one place. Have another look. :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig17:46, 22 July 2019 (UTC)Reply
Ya, frankly, I've never been a big fan of our structural conventions -- POS header levels are conditional rather than consistent, which is ... I dunno, it seems like poor practice. But it is what it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig18:19, 22 July 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Please take caution to ensure that your edits to etymology templates do not create nonsensical language. "Pre-Greek, perhaps Pre-Greek", from here, is not the kind of phrasing one wants in any running text. If you simply wanted to categorise it as a descendant from Pre-Greek, this does the trick. ←₰-→Lingo BingoDingo (talk) 07:35, 2 August 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
1. NO SOURCES! 2. we generally don't create entries proto with one descendent -- this would have been best left on the PIE entry. --{{victar|talk}}16:58, 20 August 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I'd written the etym there based on my findings in JA sources. Gogen Allguide's entry for 葉, for instance, explicitly calls out a likely relationship between 葉 and 生ゆ. Internal to our entry, it's also a bit odd to say that 葉 is not related to 生ゆ ("to sprout"), and then say that it is related to 歯 and 羽 because all three sprout. What was your basis for this edit, where you changed the "probably cognate" to "probably distinct"? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig17:45, 14 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
Proto-Japonic /tantasi/: may not have existed at Proto stage
I'm not sure the word is old enough for that. 正し(tadasi) first appears in Japanese in 858, and is clearly just 直(tada) + adjective-forming suffix し(si), modern しい(shii). This term appeared almost exclusively in 漢文訓読(kanbun kundoku) contexts to start with, suggesting that this was not an everyday term. In addition, a lot of the ~しい adjectives arise around this period as new coinages.
I'm curious, are you aware of any definite reflexes in other Japonic branches? If so, can those be identified as true cognates, rather than either borrowings or convergent constructions?
Ah, yes. That's not a cognate with Japanese adjective 正しい(tadashii), but rather with verb 正す(tadasu), derived from the same root 直(tada) + transitive / causative verb-forming suffix す(su), the root of modern する(suru) and reflected in Okinawan as スン. That relationship of Okinawanタダスン to Japanese正す is indicated there at the bottom of the タダスン entry, with the line:
Here's the breakdown, as I currently understand it.
RYU tadasun is cognate with JA tadasu, but not with JA tadashii. Both RYU tadasun and JA tadasu are likely inherited from a common ancestor, i.e. Proto-Japonic.
RYU tadasun is apparently derived from tada + sun. RYU tada is cognate with JA tada, and RYU -sun is cognate with JA -su.
JA tadashii is a coinage within JA. While the tada portion is cognate with RYU tada, the -shii portion is not, and there does not appear to be a RYU word that corresponds wholly with JA tadashii.
If there is such a RYU word as a full cognate with JA tadashii, it is not tadasun. The list of adjectives at that site clearly demonstrates that JA ~い adjectives are reflected by RYU ~さん adjectives, such as RYU akasan ↔ JA akai, RYU asasan ↔ JA asai, RYU shirusan ↔ JA shiroi, etc. The 形容詞 section in the JA WP article on 琉球語 explains that Okinawan adjectives are derived from ~さ + ある, where sa aru becomes san through a collapse of the long vowel, and by the JA ending -ru reflecting as RYU -n (as we also see with JA suru ↔ RYU sun). Given other apparent RYU cognates for JA ~しい adjectives, such as RYU utunasan ↔ JA otonashii, or RYU wukasan ↔ JA okashii, we would expect to see something like tadasan as the RYU cognate of JA tadashii, but there is no such RYU term listed.
Latest comment: 4 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
It's currently unclear what the ending of PBS neuter o-stems was. The ones we had so far all had -a, but Gnosandes has been creating them with -an instead, disrupting the pattern. I advise caution before moving them. —Rua (mew) 13:23, 20 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Just so you know, the old placement of alternative forms at *éźera is also allowed, it's not an error. I prefer that format because it treats alternative forms like other synonyms and such. —Rua (mew) 11:08, 30 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
I don't think that it's very likely that this term was formed within Proto-West Germanic. That implies that a Proto-Germanic ancestor must have existed, it just left descendants in only one branch. Only when it's likely that terms were formed separately within PWG, by a derivational process that was productive in PWG, should such pages be moved. —Rua (mew) 16:08, 9 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
The one who created this page listed it under the regional term West Proto-Germanic (= Proto-West Germanic), and it is only attested in the WGmc. languages. For example, *kwalm, which clearly has a PG and PIE antecedent. Kwékwlos (talk) 16:13, 9 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
In the μέταλλον etymology, where it said "From Lua error in Module:parameters at line 290: Parameter 2 should be a valid language, etymology language or family code; the value "pregrc" is not valid. See WT:LOL, WT:LOL/E and WT:LOF.," you added the word "pulled." It isn't an etymological term I've ever seen. Did you mean derived? "Pulled from" could also mean 'removed from', implying that it's no longer thought to be of Pre-Greek origin. I think the meaning was clearer before you added "pulled" and it should be reverted. Johanna-Hypatia (talk) 18:41, 22 February 2020 (UTC)Reply
Proto-Japonic terms derived from Indo-European languages
Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
I got very excited when I saw this category, but then got disappointed when I saw that it was empty. Did it used to have members? Is it a placeholder for future additions? カモイ (talk) 23:19, 2 March 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Victor you are quite stupid,
one term, who is linked by a sense, in other language,
don't mean that all Albanian cognate with Hebrew,
but anyway lot of Arabic term and others in Albanian derive from Hebrew. But you don't have any knowledge of it.
Also you don't speak Hebrew or Albanian according to you're Babel level so just shut up arrogant ignorant.
I don't talk to you first…
Removing some info without any detail in edit (comment),
hidden like this, is just wandalism,
but anyway, Allah / Êlohim see you where & when you don't see him.
I pray him to judge you for this to go in Héll Kwélkos, like your name suggest it. Z.
Please, don't post pseudolingustic ideas by claiming that all words derive from Hebrew. We all know that Hebrew is not Indo-European (it is Semitic) and therefore not related to Albanian, and the semantics are quite off (poison = trauma?) Cognates don't need to be similar in form, just look at English two = Armenian erku. P.S. Insulting others will get you banned. Kwékwlos (talk) 12:02, 26 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Kwékwlos, I recently pinged you on my talk page regarding a debate between me and another Wiktionarian on accents in Albanian entries. Just checking - did you see it? I would appreciate some help/insight, as I am admittedly not experienced with the wider Wiktionary world of proposals and etc. Thank you in advance! ArbDardh (talk) 14:57, 17 August 2020 (UTC)ArbDardhReply
Well, if your topic is on accents in Albanian, you should check professional sources beforehand. I don't have any knowledge of Albanian accent placement, let alone its proto-form. But we do know about Indo-European accents, which appear to have changed alot in the transition to Proto-Albanian, though I can't find any source on that. Kwékwlos (talk) 16:05, 17 August 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Stop trying to reconstruct Proto-Italic on your own and putting it in Latin entries. You have no way of knowing whether those formations were internal to Latin or not unless you have other Italic evidence. Just don't add any that aren't in the scholarly literature. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds21:35, 4 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
Yay! Now creating Proto-Japonic entries (at least finding the Ryukyuan descendants) should be easier (as I use Martin (1987) JLTT for Proto-Japonic entries) Chuterix (talk) 21:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply
I’m not sure if whoever reconstructed the words is aware of nasalization and -u- in some instances from -o-. For instance he reconstructed mugi (wheat) as PJ *mugi. Meanwhile you reconstructed mugi as PJ *monki. I know Proto-Japonic is not attested but I’m just wondering. Chuterix (talk) 21:57, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply
PJ *mu syncopates in Ryukyuan, while PJ *mo never does (the reflex of both is mu in Japanese when not word-final). Also PJ technically had nasal + voiceless clusters which became prenasalized voiced early on. Kwékwlos (talk) 22:16, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply
1st answer: thus, is it safe to move *monki to *munki/*mugi?
*monki seems to be the most widely accepted reconstruction. It wouldn't be a wise idea to redirect the page to *munki/*mugi. For *i remaining as *i in Ryukyuan, there are cases where the vowel triggers palatalization, which *e never does. For Japanese iku, there is an Okinawan cognate ichun which must point to an earlier *iku on account of the palatalized -ch- sound. For *petunsi "sheep", it is straightforward in Japanese, but Ryukyuan is much more complicated. There's a good few tweets by @cppig1995 that explains the development, but he posits mostly borrowings starting from Shuri Okinawan. Kwékwlos (talk) 07:11, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply
(chiming in...) @Chuterix, the *mugi ↔ *monki confusion that you noticed in the linked Excel list looks like general sloppiness, unfortunately. Notice that "barley" is given as *mugi in Proto-Japonic but then is given as Ɂuhumuzi in Old Shuri -- this is clearly a reflex of modern JA 大麦(ōmugi, “barley”), OJP opomugi (from opo “big” + mugi “dry-field cereal grain”), not of just plain mugi. So not only is the reconstruction suspect, but it's also a reconstruction of the wrong word.
Considering that this "barley" sense is morphologically derived as "a specific kind of mugi", we must be careful to view the different Ryukyuan forms with a sharp eye. For instance, Hatoma padaka-muŋ looks like it's probably a reflex of modern JA 裸(hadaka, “naked”) + 麦(mugi, “dry-field cereal grain”), and thus irrelevant to any direct comparison with OJP opomugi ("barley"). Similarly, the Yoron / Mugiya-shima term siimugi appears to include some other element sii-, derivationally separate from OJP opo ("big").
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Please find Ryukyuan sightings/lemmas for PR *naga (see here), and add them onto that entry. I've only gotten Okinawan, Kunigami, and Yaeyama, from the sources you've answered to other users in this talk page (JLect and Nevisky). But you've literally got (almost) every Ryukyuan descendant in (almost) every Proto-Ryukyuan adjective you've created/modified. So where do you get all of those other descendants besides Okinawan and the like if I can't find any real sightings of that? Any source you didn't mention for finding these sightings? Chuterix (talk) 22:28, 1 December 2022 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
@Kwékwlos Where did you find the word citings for kanasi descendants (see here)? I can't find them anywhere in Thorpe (1983) (at least the vocabulary section). At least the page of RLH, or some other Ryukyuan source? Chuterix (talk) 23:03, 3 December 2022 (UTC)Reply
Please update descendants section if you can. I can only find an Okinawan lemma pronounced either kucisaN or kurisjaN (assuming my analysis gives us kurisan), from the 沖縄語辞典 データ集, found by searching JLect. Therefore I just put that into descendants. Chuterix (talk) 03:06, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply
It's not on Thorpe (1983), so I can't really provide much. The only one I can find is Nikolay's Miyako form guri (with irregular voicing). Kwékwlos (talk) 13:58, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply
Update: JLTT 833 cites Shodon gurusyi- (probably a Japanese loanword, but voicing is unexpected), Nakijin kuCisen, Shuri alternate form and Yonaguni kuçisan (Yonaguni may have borrowed it from Shuri on account of the -san suffix, the usual adjectival termination in Yonaguni ends in -n). For the forms without -r-, the irregular second consonant indicates it is not probably cognate with the forms with -r-, so I have not included them. Kwékwlos (talk) 14:16, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply
Thorpe cites PR *sudasi "cool" (base *suda-), probably a cognate of OJp. suzusi except the correspondence d (< *nt) - z (< *ns) is irregular. Descendants of the PR form include: Kikai sudasai, Kunigami shidāsen, Northern Amami (Naze) shidasan, Okinawan shidasan, Tokunoshima (Inō) sïdaha, Miyako sïdāsï, Yaeyama sïdassan (< *sudasi + -san), and Yonaguni ndasan. Kwékwlos (talk) 15:50, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Kwékwlos I know about that word. But I was not planning to put it because I mainly want to put in a full set of Japonic terms (including Japanese), and the entry there lists that it's unclear how the OJ cognates work. So now I will put that along with PJ *suntusi, but call it an irregular sound shift.
You haven't answered my question about where you found *kanasi. As it's a full set of Ryukyuan terms, I must assume you got it from Thorpe (1983). But I can't find the page in the book linking to *kanasi/*kana (dear). So what page can I find *kanasi at in Thorpe Ryukyuan history book? Chuterix (talk) 16:04, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply
As for *kana/*kanasi, these were guessed via regular sound change. But feel free to remove the unsourced ones. For *sudasi, you can create it. But please notice it is only found in Ryukyuan, and not in Proto-Japonic since the connection with the Jp. term is tenuous at best. Kwékwlos (talk) 19:30, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply
Also, to quickly reference/source a Proto-Ryukyuan entry whose descendants are included in Thorpe (1983), you can use the Template:R:jpx-ryu:Thorpe 1983 ("R:jpx-ryu:Thorpe 1983") template. You can put "page=x"/"pages=x-x" to indicate the page of the Proto-Ryukyuan reconstruction/descendants.
This is to ensure that the descendants/PR source is verified (unless you/I reconstruct on own), and users can find where all of the descendants are (I had to consult you to even find where every single existant Ryukyuan descendant of nouns/adjectives are). I've already included this template in the *moye reconstruction published here.
Why were the IPA prons (sections) for Proto-Japonic entries removed, but Proto-Ryukyuan still uses the IPA pron section? If the language is reconstructed why not get rid of all IPA pronunciation sections in the PR entries? Chuterix (talk) 23:20, 22 December 2022 (UTC)Reply
Thanks; this also provides Haytong Cheykwukki info (I didn't ask for that originally to you because I looked that up and found some books about Ryukyuan or something mentioning this).
Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Please consider Old Japanese (and it's dialects) < Proto-Japonic when using the comparative method (as in, change the reconstruction of PJ based on using the comparative method on OJP and PR). You've changed Proto-Ryukyuan *nau(“what”) to *nawo(“what”) and *ema(“now”) to *enama(“now”), but without changing the ancestor PJ word via the comparative method of OJP and PR on both of them, and @Eirikr asked on both reconstructed entries how the sound changes occur, saying either that it makes no sense or it's unlikely. See the talk pages of these reconstructions for what @Eirikr had said. Chuterix (talk) 00:08, 7 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
The PR reconstruction is heavily debated, but @cppig1995 points out that this word was *ema-ema and that it was loaned from Northern Ryukyuan to Southern Ryukyuan. But I fail to see how a basic word would be borrowed. Kwékwlos (talk) 08:45, 7 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Kwékwlos,
Thank you for your edits (and interest) in the reconstructed Latin area.
There are many mistakes with the autogenerated inflexion charts for Proto-Italo-Western Romance, etc. A by-no-means-exhaustive list would be:
Claim of nasal vowels
Claim of distinction between unstressed /ɛ, ɔ/ and /e, o/
Lack of Proto-Italo-Western distinction between /-u/ and /-o/
Presumption of a genitive distinct from the dative
Bug producing -ẹi (for cases like ienuarius) for what should be -i
The verb inflexion charts are particularly problematic in their claiming, for instance, several types of inflexions for Proto-Balkan-Romance that are not supported by any of the descendants.
Fixing the noun declension charts may be simple, and I'll take a crack at it. On the other hand, the verb charts are the stuff of nightmares. Nicodene (talk) 11:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion
I messed up the reconstruction of PJ *mə (new fixed title) (OJP is actually mo2 > mo, not mo1, so I erroneously reconstructed PJ *mo), so is the reconstruction of PR *mu still correct? Or does it have to be changed? Chuterix (talk) 22:01, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
While most Ryukyuan varieties reflect *mu, there are a few (Amami and Okinoerabu) that reflect *mo. I believe the two coexisted in PR. Kwékwlos (talk) 22:03, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago8 comments2 people in discussion
Hi,
The hyphen thing in Proto-Italo-Western-Romance and Proto-Balkan-Romance is meant for consistency with Proto-Gallo-Romance, Proto-Ibero-Romance, and Proto-Romance.
Language labels, such as these have just now been converted to, are generally put in the head or definitions of entries, not the pronunciation section, so that's why I've now been moving them.
I've been changing the lemmas to accusative forms for even Gallo-Romance because there are cases such as *fetonem, where the descendants do not actually attest a nominative *feto. Also it allows consistency with Proto-Ibero- and Balkan-Romance (and upcoming Proto-Italo-Romance), which are without a case system. Also consistent with our Old Occitan and Old French entries, which lemmatize by the accusative (oblique) form, even though a nominative still exists. In the future we can add inflexions to Proto-Gallo-Romance entries that will show the relevant forms.
You should account for these unique survivals in the attested languages (productive nominative, etc.), and not by generalizing things based on other proto-languages Kwékwlos (talk) 22:52, 15 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
The generalization is based on two other considerations as well, perhaps most notably the identical treatment of Old French and Occitan (not only by Wiktionary, but generally by dictionaries of those languages as well).
Please keep them on the pronunciation section, because readers would not know what stage of Romance the pronunciation belongs. With the addition of a Gallo-Romance declension table, similar declension tables must be made for other Romance proto-languages (not the old one) with Latinate spellings and local IPA pronunciations. Kwékwlos (talk) 00:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
By that reasoning, readers seeing a label on the pronunciation would not now what stage of Romance the actual word belongs to.
I don't think readers would be so prone to confusion either way. Still, there may be merit in one day breaking free of Reconstruction:Latin entirely and creating normal proto-languages.
It seems one person decided to make common Western proper names for a random Austronesian language that would seem out-of-place. For example, what if one decided to mass-create the same list of names in a language like Tolai (another Austronesian language)? Kwékwlos (talk) 10:37, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
You shouldn't delete other people's entries without sending them to verification. Please undo those changes and use the {{rfv}} template and send them through the proper process. Chances are they will be deleted but it creates prescedent as to why they were deleted. Vininn126 (talk) 10:39, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Quite unlikely to be borrowed, considering that it is not at all a general word for 'think' in literary Latin, that it diphthongizes in Spanish (yo pienso < ego pĕnso), and that it's attested from the earliest Romance texts. It survives in a similar sense in Romanian as păsa, where early borrowing from Latin is out of the question for historical reasons. The /ns/ forms could perhaps be described as 'semi-learned', but even that is unnecessary, considering that /ns/ survival occurs in for example the (very clearly inherited) descendants of *mansus < mansuetus. It could simply be that the variation between /s/ and /ns/ (when the reduction process was in effect) was exploited to differentiate what would later become pesar(“weigh”) from pensar(“think”), creating two verbs from one. Nicodene (talk) 21:48, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
I see. Given that they undergo all popular sound changes, I think they were borrowed during the Proto-Romance period and then passed on as "almost-inherited" descendants. Kwékwlos (talk) 21:51, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
At that stage it wouldn't count as a borrowing from Latin, since Proto-Romance is itself Latin. It would have to be a posh fashion passed down to the general population, but then we would expect that posh fashion to be reflected in the texts of that time.
I think it'd be fair enough to say this about the /ns/ forms:
Latest comment: 1 year ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Please use {{auto cat}}. Otherwise, they don't get subcategorised properly and no-one will ever find them - making it worse than useless, because it's also harder for bots to find them as they don't register as uncreated. Theknightwho (talk) 19:58, 26 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi,
Could we please not do multiple reconstructed pronunciations, reflecting different stages of Romance, on one page? It exponentially multiplies the (already overwhelming) work of double-checking. For instance, the Catalan descendant of *longitanus retains the second vowel.
If you want we can move these "extras" to a sandbox page and play around with them there, as a sort of exercise, but I'd really rather not do this on the actual entries, because then I'd have to rigorously check each and every new pronunciation. There is already a ton of work to do to fix up Late and reconstructed Latin here (finding all the proper dates of attestation, for example, very time-consuming), and this would greatly complicate things.
Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion
You should use {{tlb}} in the head rather than {{lb}} (I see Nicodene already mentioned this a few weeks ago). I have to say though I don't particularly like the practice of moving labels for single-sense terms to the head line, by moving them to a much less prominent position at the end of a line it makes them harder for users to spot without providing any functional benefit. What's the rationale? —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 23:28, 9 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments3 people in discussion
Hello, Kwékwlos. I believe that you added Etymology 2, “(Japan) Abbreviation of channel” to ch. I don't know what that gloss means, though. I'm guessing maybe it's something related to 2channel or the like, but that is a total guess. Could you take a look at the entry and see if maybe a usage example or other addition might clarify? Thanks, Cnilep (talk) 08:11, 27 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
In Japanese, ch refers to channel in general. So when the Japanese type English, they will transfer this to English as well. Kwékwlos (talk) 09:29, 27 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the reply. So you are saying that when native Japanese users write in English, they use ch as an abbreviation for channel – have I got that right? If so, I'm not sure that the practice is limited to Japanese speakers. With a full-stop ch. is a common abbreviation in English, and a web search shows things like “12ch speaker selector” (that is, channel in a different sense of the word). I'm not sure whether the label adds useful information, or is simply confusing. Happy editing, Cnilep (talk) 01:21, 28 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
GW "golden week", HP "home page", and recycle shop are some English words with predominantly Japanese usage. They can appear both in a Japanese-language text, (in speeches) code-switching, or in full English. Kwékwlos (talk) 21:34, 28 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
In other words, to clarify, Wiktionary is supposed to reflect what is more or less the consensus of modern linguists. Regardless of how plausible your deductions are, which as a layperson I may not judge, if unsourced, they do not belong in the project. Although we do not prohibit original research per se, this applies to matters of small weight, while claming that Japonic is a subbranch of Indo-European is quite the heavy claim. There will surely be better places to note down your finds, especially since adding them here, as evidenced, will just get you reverted and blocked. Please reconsider mentioning these kinds of connections on-site. Catonif (talk) 19:08, 20 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
The history of Proto-Japonic on Wiktionary started on January 5 2019 when you first added PJ *mentu(“water”) onto Wiktionary, introducing lemmatized PJ to Wiktionary.
Next was PJ *pitə(“person”, later you created gloss "one"), etc.
January 11 2019 was when @Mellohi! began reconstructing Proto-Japonic, mostly basic vocabulary that even was listed in Thorpe (1983). E.g. *kəy(“tree”), *poy(“fire”), etc. Mostly basing off Pellard's reconstructions. The descendants are based off the former Ryukyu-go Onsei Database (Audio Database of Ryukyuan Lagnuages), which included Kunigami (Yonamine, Nakijin), Northern Amami-Oshima (Yamatohama), Okinawan (Shuri-Naha), and Miyako (unknown). Some descendants from Nevisky were added, along with other descendants from unknown sources.
Then, you @Kwékwlos started added descendants from Thorpe (1983), and blah blah blah.
Then there weren't anymore Proto-Japonic reconstructions since at least late 2021. I joined on Wiktionary to learn Japanese, then wanted to know etymologies for words. Some were from PJ (like ある(aru, “to exist”) < PJ *ari, or 胸(mune, muna, “chest”) < PJ *munay). I first wanted to know etymology of 何(nani, “what”), presumably from PJ *n-anu- (or *n-anV?). Now here is my reconstruction history, initially using reconstructions from Martin (1987), but soon start to take on my own reconstructions from analysis. Starting with PJ *asonpu(“to play”) and *nanka(“long”). I also forgot to mention that my initial days were troubled by there existing only Okinawan descendants. I soon began to make progress.
P.S.(-ish) I forgot to mention other users try to create reconstruction pages but they were badly configured (as I said in mukantay, had to clean up PJ *Enəti(“life”) and *məmə(“peach”)). The pages in parentheses were amply attested throughout all of the Ryukyuan languages. On momo however the unknown IP sound guessed every decendant based off okinawan mumu, so I had to fix it.
Anyways, the former Proto-Japonic members were @Kwékwlos, Mellohi!. Mellohi seems to no longer been creating new PJ entries, Kwekwlos seems to be fixing the problems in the PJ entries and updating some stuff. Some 2022-2023 created entries are all from Thorpe (1983) (e.g. PJ *mmanka(“grandchild”)).
Now I seem to be taking over PJ reconstruction (thanks to one unknown IP I created PJ *paka(“grave”) which is luckily amply attested all around the Ryukyus), but IDK. What wil be the future of reconstructing PJ here?
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Some stuff was implemented on the site, probably a few months ago, such that now the horizontal divider lines previously generated by typing ---- are now generated automatically so there is no need to try to add these dividers to entries yourself anymore. Acolyte of Ice (talk) 10:54, 22 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
/k?/ = /kC/ = either k or kh. I know Martin (1987) puts K and T for k~kh and t~th.
The term cited is Kumin, cognate to JA 組む(kumu, “to link across”); the PJ form is *kumu based off the Southern Ryukyuan evidence: Irav & Sa. fum; Yaeyama fumun (< PR *kumi). Unlike PJ *kəmu(“to enclose”) where Hirara kumīz and Yaeyama kumin/kumi-ru(?) (< PR *kome). SR cognates from Jarosz (2015). Chuterix (talk) 13:19, 3 July 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago8 comments2 people in discussion
When using Thorpe (1983) what dialects are you preferring for some entries like adjectives and verbs (e.g. *taka(“high”) and *ide(“to go out”))? I see that TKN entries there reflects Kametsu dialect.
Indeed. @Chuterix, as I told you almost a month ago at User_talk:Eirikr#馬, please slow down, and please respect that this is a volunteer project. Other editors have exactly zero obligation to respond to you, let alone to drop everything else and make your pings their top priority.
Please do not engage in further mass pings.
Please also do not repeatedly ping users so frequently, as you have done here to Kwékwlos, and earlier to Mellohi and myself.
We don't know how these terms were pronounced. Therefore, adding pronunciation sections is misleading at best, flatly incorrect at worst.
The pitch accent information you were adding is confusing and unsourced. What are the accent classes? Who decided what accent class each word belongs to? None of this is explained or linked, which is unacceptably bad usability.
Better to have nothing than to have wrong information, or information that is so obscure as to be opaquely not-understandable.
As I noted on Kwékwlos's Talk page, you need to coordinate and achieve consensus first. Just announcing that you're going to rework entry structure and launching into that is insufficient and subject to reversion -- even more so when the content you're adding is problematic (as above). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:39, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
PS: Various Proto-Austronesian terms lack pronunciation sections, such as *baŋbaŋ₂, *laCəŋ, *lahud, *kurap.
Also, you quote Aramaki-san, but fail to cite: where do they say that? Context is important.
Latest comment: 3 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi. I came across an etymology of yours from Dec 2020 claiming to derive Latin sentimentum from Proto-Italic *sentimentom. This has persisted for over 3 years but it's wrong, and ludicrously so, as this term is first attested around 1500 AD. This shows how important it is not to add plausible-sounding garbage to Wiktionary. Benwing2 (talk) 21:32, 12 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Benwing2: Hi, I am chiming in a bit late here, but I want to point out that in late 2020, the user in question took it upon himself, like a hobby induced game, to add ridiculous Proto-Italic reconstructions en masse to Latin terms that were obviously later formations. I managed to remove most of them but it appears that I also missed some. Please delete these on sight. Thanks. -- 𝘗𝘶𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘪𝘺𝘪(𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘬)08:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Howdy! I'm just curious, do you remember where you got the Sakha/Yakut etymology for this word? You wrote that this word came through Russian from Yakutюкагир(yukagir), but this word doesn't looks like a normal Sakha word at all. It is listed in the Sakha online dictionary, but it looks like a borrowing from Russian. All the sources I can find, derive the word from Evenki.
Latest comment: 5 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
hi Kwékwlos,
I just discovered the entries you created, about 2 years ago, for Teanu. Cool!
Simply, I noticed that all the references are wrong, because you simply cut-and-pasted the same link (usually the one to moe). I've corrected a couple entries (like here) but I cannot do all of them. Would you be able to check and correct the links? Ideally you'd double check that each link lands on the right entry.
Latest comment: 5 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I believe the word final <-z> as transcribed by Nevsky for the Miyako language is actually supposed to represent a word final fricative vowel: イ゚(ɿ). Chuterix (talk) 15:11, 12 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 27 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion
@Kwékwlos I don't know if you should really put Old Okinawan forms (Liuqiu Guan Yiyu, Haytong Ceykwukki, Omoro Soshi, etc.) into Northern Ryukyuan descendant list in proto-ryukyuan entries (in spite that the Omoro Soshi apparently has different dialectal variety, but that might just be the okinawan forms that vary), because someone who is not acquainted with Japonic linguists would think that the Old Okinawan form that you masquerade as a Northern Ryukyuan form is the ancestor of all Northern Ryukyuan langauges (including Amami). Do you mind if I change the Northern Ryukyuan forms so they could look like a better ancestry?
Sure. Though the exact subgrouping of Northern Ryukyuan is still uncertain, shared innovations are very useful, especially if they cannot be proven areally. One example is the apparent subgrouping of Yuwan Amami within Yoron, first made by Thorpe. Kwékwlos (talk) 22:42, 27 July 2024 (UTC)Reply