Wiktionary:Grease pit/2018/April

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discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← March 2018 · April 2018 · May 2018 → · (current)

MediaWiki:Gadget-TranslationAdder-Data.js, Teochew and Taishanese[edit]

zhx-teo and zhx-tai need to be added to MediaWiki:Gadget-TranslationAdder-Data.js so that translations will be nested. It seems like it should go under lzh: c, in the form of "zhx-teo": c, and "zhx-tai": c,. —suzukaze (tc) 07:59, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes check.svg DoneSuzukaze-c 03:06, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Awhile ago, someone broke {{affix|...|lang1=LANG}} by adding "Borrowed from ..." and I'd like to revert it[edit]

@Rua, Daniel Carrero, Erutuon Sometime in the last year or so, someone (probably one of the three people just pinged, since they're the ones who've been hacking on this code the most) changed the behavior of {{affix|...|lang1=LANG}} to add the text "Borrowing from ..." at the beginning. This didn't use to be the case, and I suspect it was an accident; in any case it has caused some seriously ugly results in probably hundreds of pages that I created from before that time. See дистальный for one of many examples, where the text now reads

Perhaps from Borrowing from German distal +‎ -ный (-nyj).

where it used to read

Perhaps from German distal +‎ -ный (-nyj).

I sort of noticed this yesterday and tried to fix things by adding the notext= parameter to {{affix}}, {{confix}}, etc., but this isn't the right solution, as it would require adding |notext=1 to hundreds of pages. I think we should simply revert the changed behavior and not include the "Borrowing from" text, because:

  1. This is compatible with the way that {{bor}} now works.
  2. Hundreds of pages are broken with the text present.
  3. The current code is completely broken if you try to use lang2=, lang3=, etc.: {{affix|ru|distal|-ный|-ation|lang1=de|lang3=en}}German distal +‎ -ный (-nyj) +‎ English -ation.
  4. If there are pages that depend on the new behavior, they won't be horribly broken, because the "Borrowing from" text will necessarily occur at the beginning of a sentence, and the line will still be coherent without it.

If no one complains, I'll go ahead and fix this tomorrow. (It might be possible to clean this up with a bot, by (a) making the proposed change, and (b) having a bot go through and add the text "Borrowed from " to all occurrences of *fix that have lang1= in them, occur at the beginning of a line, and have a period at the end of the line.) Benwing2 (talk) 22:40, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@Rua, Daniel Carrero, Erutuon Pinging again ... sorry, I don't know if multi-paragraph pings work properly ... :( Benwing2 (talk) 22:41, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
There was a conversation about this a while back, which I can't find at the moment, but I seem to recall that Rua also wanted this to be fixed in the way you describe, but left the project before it could be implemented. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 12:56, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Mahagaja, Benwing2: Wiktionary:Grease pit/2018/January § Affix with lang1 --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 13:16, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
@Mahagaja, Per utramque cavernam It looks like there was some module editing with unintended consequences. The Jan 2018 discussion just mentioned referred to a May 30 2016 edit by Rua that supposedly added the "learned borrowing" text, but at the time, the flag in question to format_borrowed() had the meaning of "notext", and the change by Rua was correct. It looks like someone (not sure who yet) later changed the calling sequence of format_borrowed(), removing (I think) the nocap param, without properly fixing up the callers, causing the call to format_borrowed() to accidentally instead specify the "learned borrowing" flag and not specify the "notext" flag. Someone else tried to fix this by disabling the "learned borrowing" flag, which left the normal borrowing text in its place. I will fix this up properly.
BTW I was gone for about 6-7 months, and in the meantime, Rua seems to have (a) adopted a new name, and (b) left the project. Anyone know what happened to her? Benwing2 (talk) 17:49, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Benwing2: This was the last discussion Rua participated in. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 17:52, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Aryamanorora: Thanks. Benwing2 (talk) 17:56, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@AryamanA: Oops. Benwing2 (talk) 17:57, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Benwing2: Yes, that and Wiktionary:Votes/sy-2017-11/Desysopping CodeCat aka Rua (which is mentioned in the discussion). --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:15, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@per utramque cavernam: Thanks. IMO this is too bad. Rua definitely caused friction by her behavior but did a lot of good work on the project. Benwing2 (talk) 18:19, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
BTW I made the change to remove the "Borrowing from" text from {{affix|...|langN=...}}, and reverted the previous additions I made of a |notext= flag. Benwing2 (talk) 18:20, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Benwing2: Yes, I'm saddened by her departure too. And thanks for fixing {{affix}} (by the way, I'm not ignoring your Russian pings, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to contribute). --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:14, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Per Utramque cavernam: No need to respond to the pings, I'm just including you in case you are interested; if you'd rather I not include you, just let me know. Benwing2 (talk) 20:25, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Per utramque cavernam: Damn I need to be more careful spelling usernames. Benwing2 (talk) 20:26, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Benwing2: Copy+paste? --WikiTiki89 14:40, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
@WikiTiki89: It doesn't always work. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 17:01, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
@Per utramque cavernam: You have to copy and paste directly from the link in the wikitext of the user's signature. Work's 100% of the time. --WikiTiki89 18:03, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Hidden categories[edit]

Surely preferences used to have a switch to enable hidden categories to be listed at the bottom of a page. Has it gone or is my memory going. — Saltmarsh. 14:15, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

It must still be there, because I still have this feature enabled. --WikiTiki89 14:18, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
It's in the appearance tab under advanced options. DTLHS (talk) 15:28, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you so much I thought I had searched everywhere - but probably spent most time looking through the long lists. I'm now thoughly humbled :) — Saltmarsh. 15:33, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Help with abuse filter[edit]

New Special:AbuseFilter/79 does not work. Should catch e.g. this deleted entry اختباراختبار (my test), and in general anything that contains "==English==" but has an Arabic title (a common form of disruptive edit recently). Can anyone help me debug? Perhaps using Arabic right-to-left chars in a regex is not properly supported? Equinox 23:08, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

@Equinox: Looking at the documentation, the filter is matching ==English== against the page title (article_text) and the Arabic letters against the added_lines. It should be the other way around. (I wonder if like tries to match the whole string or just find a matching substring.) — Eru·tuon 01:32, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
I also wonder if like doesn't recognize multi-byte characters (the Arabic) in a character set (i.e., treats them as '[\xD8\xBA\xD8\xB8...]', not as codepoints U+63A, U+638, ...). If so, the continuation bytes could match non-Arabic characters. Might be safer to use rlike. And you could expand the regex to the whole Arabic block ('[؀-ۿ]'), or copy the pattern from Module:scripts/data. — Eru·tuon 02:12, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
It works now, thanks to Eru magic. Thanks! I have also set it to block the edits because we get a lot of these and they are worthless. Equinox 02:59, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

banned off the IRC[edit]

If you are expected a classic drunk Equinox story, unfortunately there isn't one. I can't join the wikt IRC even after resetting the router, which suggests somebody has applied a huge sweeping IP ban that covers the entirety of British Telecom or something (I was never actually banned; I assume this is someone else's ban). Fixy fixy? Equinox 02:58, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

I had the same problem, apparently my IP was banned on the Japanese wiktionary (?), it went away at some point. Crom daba (talk) 04:37, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Hmmm, if only we had an equivalent to IRC, but something where your IP couldn't be banned by mistake, and with lots more features... —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:25, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
As I stated before, proprietary systems are tacky and often shut down without warning. Enjoy your sandbox until the adults take it away. Then we'll welcome you on IRC -- along with the past victims of MSN Messenger, AOL AIM, Google Buzz, Google Wave, Orkut, Flock browser -- I could go on. Equinox 05:48, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm confused, is this now the classic drunk Equinox story? It seems to have all the nonsensical makings of one. --Victar (talk) 14:47, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Does the web interface work? And does it prevent you from joining the channel or any freenode server? - TheDaveRoss 12:56, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
(For what it is worth, none of the channel bans seem like they would impact you, so it must be a network ban.) - TheDaveRoss 13:03, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Two points:
  • This is likely bleed-over from a long-term abuser on en.WP who often uses BT. I am working on finding and alleviating.
  • I will happily host an instance of Rocket.Chat, which is a flossy pseudo-clone of Slack, but Equinox is correct - such multi-channel communications systems have not proven to last, unlike IRC.
- Amgine/ t·e 15:09, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Advice from irc://chat.freenode.net/wikimedia-ops is to try again. When they have done BT range blocks they are for as short a time as possible, usually a few minutes. - Amgine/ t·e 15:14, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Tech feature: intersection and disjunction[edit]

Is there a tool or way of finding the intersection (and moreover, the disjunct group) of two categories? For example, category:English adjectives and category:English words suffixed with -ly (which in fact would go to category:English words suffixed with -ly (adjectival)!). Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:23, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

See https://petscan.wmflabs.org/ explained at m:PetScan. It returns 526 pages in Category:English adjectives and Category:English words suffixed with -ly, not in Category:English words suffixed with -ly (adjectival). --Vriullop (talk) 10:01, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Ordinary Cirrus search supports category intersections. DCDuring (talk) 12:00, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Cirrus search is at least 0.6% better than petscan because 'incategory:"English words suffixed with -ly" incategory:"English adjectives"' generated 529 hits. DCDuring (talk) 12:05, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Adding in search '-incategory:"English words suffixed with -ly (adjectival)"' it returns 526 pages. There are 3 pages in both "-ly" and "-ly (adjectival)" categories. --Vriullop (talk) 12:35, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Haitian Creole ancestors[edit]

Could someone who's able to edit Module:languages/data2 please add French as an ancestor of Haitian Creole? It's a French-based creole, but right now its ancestors are listed as unknown. —Globins 22:13, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

We have thus far chosen to consider the main lexifiers of a creole as distinct from its ancestors, where any exist. Were French to evolve naturally, it would not produce a creole, so Haitian Creole is not a descendant language despite most of its lexicon being descended from French lexical items. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:37, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
If this is the policy for all creoles, then I don't think it makes sense for English to be listed as an ancestor of Tok Pisin. —Globins 00:04, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
I agree. It's not policy, though, just our (imperfectly applied) standard so far. More input would definitely be good; I seem to remember @Mahagaja having discussed this in the past. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:19, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
Not in any informed way, I haven't. I think at some point I said that {{der}} was the only appropriate template for creoles and pidgins because their words are neither really inherited nor really borrowed from their lexifier languages, but other people disagreed with me. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 07:08, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
Whatever we do, I think we should standardize it. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? —Globins 13:47, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
I think we should call English a creole of French as well. I jest, but I agree, I think Haitian Creole should really be descended from French. The alternative is to say all the French vocabulary is borrowed, which seems the worst of the two options. --Victar (talk) 17:44, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
Or we could do what Mahagaja supports and what we've been doing up to this point, namely use {{der}}. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:02, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) No, the alternative is to not say whether it's borrowed or inherited, just where it comes from. There are no decisive arguments one way or the other, and even if there were, it's likely they wouldn't apply uniformly in all instances. I don't believe that we really understand what happens when a pidgin is created and when it becomes a creole- there are elements of inheritance and borrowing and influence that are really hard to separate. It's best not commit to any interpretation, at least for now. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:10, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge, Chuck Entz, I don't think making French the ancestor and the use of {{der}} or {{inh}} to be mutually exclusive. --Victar (talk) 20:41, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Victar As long as there's a good chance that whatever we decide could be wrong, I'd rather not decide. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:54, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Auto Cat and Topical Categories That Begin With Language Names[edit]

@Erutuon What do you think about something along the lines of a |nopos= parameter so people don't have to learn how to use {{topic cat}}. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:25, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Edit tags: -th[edit]

What does the tag "-th" mean? There's no explanation at Special:Tags. Thanks. – Gormflaith (talk) 00:43, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

It's referring to the IP range characteristic of a certain Thai editor who often adds incorrect information. @Chuck Entz created it, I think. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:44, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I noticed he was really the only one doing anything about it. – Gormflaith (talk) 00:53, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Special:AbuseFilter/75. Equinox 00:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox: you forget that some of us are the mere "public" :-) ("You may not view details of this filter, because it is hidden from public view.") – Gormflaith (talk) 00:53, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
I think people do that to stop the bad editor from studying the filter and coming up with workarounds. BTW, it would be nice for Special:Tags to indicate which numbered filters apply a given tag. Equinox 01:10, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Yep. The main problem isn't bad information (though they do that, too), but adding labels and templates where they don't belong. They seem to be so mesmerized by our template technology that they add them everywhere, even in languages they know nothing about, even where the templates produce garbage unless you know the right parameters (which this editor certainly doesn't). I've seen them add a dozen or more conjugation templates to Spanish entries that already had working ones.
There's no way for a non-Thai to tell them apart from competent IPs when they're working with Thai, but Thai IPs working in other languages are few and far between, so I have the abuse filters tag the IP range editing entries with no Thai content. In my experience their edits are maybe 50% unnecessary clutter and 30-40% varying degrees of wrong- so definitely worth checking- but they seem quite normal if you're just skimming Recent Changes. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:08, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


I have a list of about 1,700 dinosaur names from Wikipedia at User:BD2412/dinosaurs. Is there some technical shortcut we can use to extract information from Wikipedia to create entries for these? bd2412 T 18:03, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

I think that would be undesirable. Plus, the most interesting part is often the etymology, which Wikipedia has usually messed up to some degree. If you ping me in about three weeks, I can spend some hours creating a few hundred or so. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:10, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
I have put a reminder in my phone. I tried to say "Metaknowledge" and it came out "meadow knowledge", but close enough. bd2412 T 18:13, 22 April 2018 (UTC)


Does somebody know why this doesn't work? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 10:31, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that the label "terms derived from English" belongs to a different submodule (Module:category tree/derivcatboiler) and Module:category tree/poscatboiler assumes that you are specifying a label that belongs to it. I guess you have to give the name of the submodule and the language code for English instead, but I can't get it to work. — Eru·tuon 16:58, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Revert edit summary[edit]

This is probably a stupid question, but why do edit summaries for reverts look like this? Is there a way to fix it besides manually deleting the tags? And is it just my browser? – Gormflaith (talk) 17:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Not a stupid question. I've been meaning to ask that myself. It didn't used to do this. I can see three possibilities:
  1. The gadget has been changed to use a bad tag that it didn't use before
  2. The system has changed so that a formerly acceptable (or at least functional) tag is no longer allowed.
  3. Either the system or the gadget has changed so that the output of the gadget is no longer being treated as html.
The last option is suggested to me by the fact that I see unconverted markup in the Recent Changes splash screen that I get when I revert or delete. I suppose it might be due to some kind of interaction with another gadget or appearance preference, but I thought I went through and unclicked everything that might do that, with no effect. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:30, 20 April 2018 (UTC)