Wiktionary:Tea room/2018/April

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discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← March 2018 · April 2018 · May 2018 → · (current)

Syllables of whitening[edit]

The word whiten has a syllabic nasal at the end: /ˈwaɪt.n̩/ (“white-n”). Dictionary.com shows the pronunciation of whitening as /ˈwaɪt.n̩.ɪŋ/ (“white-n-ing”) having three syllables with a syllabic nasal in the middle, but that seems to be different from the audio file there. Isn’t it rather /ˈwaɪt.nɪŋ/ (“white-ning”) having two syllables? Similarly, isn’t whitener pronounced /ˈwaɪt.nɚ/ (“white-ner”) rather than /ˈwaɪt.n̩.ɚ/ (“white-n-er”)? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:31, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

The two-syllable pronunciation is much more common in normal (rather than careful) speech. In normal speech there is sometimes a need to distinguish between terms like lightening and lightning. But in the more general case, is that kind of syllable-dropping lexical information rather than a general phenomenon of speech? DCDuring (talk) 15:45, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Well, it can vary from dialect to dialect. For example, I pronounce settler in three syllables with the /t/ realized as a flap: [ˈsɛɾl̩ɚ] and was quite astonished as a teenager when I heard someone from a different part of the States pronounce it in two syllables with the /t/ realized as a glottal stop: [ˈsɛʔlɚ]. This contrasts with butler, which both of us pronounced in two syllables with a glottal stop: [ˈbʌʔlɚ]. So it's not lexical in the sense that it's something specific to the word whitening, but it's still lexicographically relevant as it's not automatically predictable in all accents. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 17:04, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
As another datapoint, I have settler with two syllables but whitening and the like as invariably trisyllabic in my dialect (or at least idiolect (?)). It might be very difficult to pin down which pronunciations are normal in which dialects without finding academic research on the subject. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 21:17, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you guys. There seems no consensus among native speakers… — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 07:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
That is correct, and I can guarantee that in this matter you will find unconscious variability in pronunciation that most speakers and listeners will not notice, quite apart from regional and family-to-family variation. I strongly recommend specifying both pronunciations as valid alternatives. JonRichfield (talk) 03:49, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
I noticed that most American TV anchors pronounce [[meddling]] as three syllables. (I heard quite a few time when there's talk about 2016 election meddling). In Australia, I'm pretty sure, it's two syllables. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:18, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Italicising "especially" in sense lines[edit]

Italicising "especially" in sense lines is a practice that I dislike and sometimes undo. Example: person might be "any living creature, especially a human being". If you remove the italics, the line still makes perfect sense, and looks less prissy. The apparent distinction is that the italicised text should be interpreted on a "meta" level, i.e. X is defined as Y but is especially defined as Z; however, there is almost never any real difference between saying this and saying that X is defined as "Y, especially Z". I can't imagine us italicising thus: "any small dog, but never a poodle"; it also looks sillier the shorter the entry is. (Would you want italics on the "especially" in alevin?) Policy issue? Equinox 02:16, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Bonus argument: putting a word in italics isn't semantically useful either (it's not safe for automated tools to interpret those italics as a gloss etc., because italics inside a sense line could be a genus or anything), so if we are going to do this then we need some kind of template. Equinox 02:23, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox so "if we are going ....", very funny. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:09, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
I don't particularly like the italics, but see the "meta" distinction. Surely it is very common in dictionaries to abbreviate this to "esp.", and this distinctive abbreviation needs no italics to be distinguished from the word "especially" if it occurs in a definition. Why not use "esp." here? Imaginatorium (talk) 09:30, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the input; however, (i) "esp." and "especially" shouldn't be semantically different (even if they have historically been different in dictionaries); (ii) any actual difference is clearly based on the fact that paper dictionaries needed to save space for print purposes; for an Internet dictionary, saving the letters "-ecially" makes no difference (and would force a few users to look up "esp." to see what it means). Equinox 02:34, 5 April 2018 (UTC)


Can we give a direct translation or example, so we can understand something like "Questo utente ha imparato a programmare su uno ZX Spectrum 48k e a distanza di più di trent'anni si ritrova a programmare per lavoro dispositivi che non arrivano a 8kB di ram. Averceli 48kB!"? (Taken from here) Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:09, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

QAnon, The Storm[edit]

These proper nouns related to a conspiracy theory are citable under hot word criteria, but I'm not convinced that their inclusion is desirable and would appreciate some opinions on this. (For reference, "QAnon" or "Q" is an anonymous 4chan user and Trump supporter who purports to have Q-clearance and has originated "The Storm". "The Storm" or "Follow(ing) the White Rabbit" is a conspiracy theory among Trump supporters that postulates that the Mueller investigation is a "deep-state" effort to support Trump and round up a satanic paedophile ring supposedly operated by several prominent politicians.) ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:50, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Eastern Armenian: Feminine Ending for Nationalities[edit]

I'm working through Pimsleur's ten only-audio lessons in Eastern Armenian. Pimsleur always teaches you how to say "I am an American." along with how to say the L2 country's nationality. The male form is ամերիկացի - amerikats’i. The female form sounds like "amerikoohee" 1. How is that spelled in the Armenian alphabet? 2. Could that be added to the entry for ամերիկացի? With the corresponding Armenian words հայ, հայուհի (hay, hayuhi) the feminine form is listed under "derived term"

My guess is ամերիկուհի. Google translates from Armenian to English as "American woman" without any "did you mean ..." corrections.

(It can be very difficult to get Google to reveal feminine and formal 2nd-person plural forms where English is ambivalent.)

@Vahagn PetrosyanΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:16, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
What you heard on the audio is ամերիկուհի (amerikuhi). But use ամերիկացի (amerikacʿi) for both genders. The forms in -ուհի (-uhi) are linguistically marked. Using them is similar to using authoress for a female author. --Vahag (talk) 19:43, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

interrogative lemma and IPA[edit]

Are there interrogative lemmata? What is acceptable: to be, or not to be? or, to be, or not to be?
And please, could someone help: what IPA symbol would i use for an interrogative /ˈti ˈðeon ʝeˈnesθe?/ (for τι δέον γενέσθαι) Thank you sarri.greek (talk) 13:00, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek There are several here. The page title doesn’t get a ?, but you can add it to the head= (as in who's 'she', the cat's mother).
IPA has characters for intonation if Greek questions are marked with that, but I have never seen these characters used in Wiktionary. — Ungoliant (falai) 13:30, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you @Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV: sarri.greek (talk) 13:42, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

amoret, bandon, delightous, etc.[edit]

I've been adding some quotes to words in Category:Requests for quotation/The Romaunt of the Rose. The text uses alternate spellings (e.g. baundon, delitous); I added them under alternative forms. Should these forms found in The Romaunt of the Rose be Middle English rather than English? Chaucer was certainly writing in Middle English. – Gormflaith (talk) 13:38, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes please. Webster 1913 did not clearly distinguish ME (or OE) from ModE; I should have entered them as ME in most cases. Equinox 13:39, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Alright, will do. Thanks. – Gormflaith (talk) 13:51, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

social pattern[edit]

This may or may not be a legitimate entry but the definition seems barely meaningful: "The systems of control mechanisms to dominate these entities of the organization to achieve a defined goal." Equinox 17:00, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

cubalibre etymology[edit]

It mentions a battle cry (i.e. "free Cuba!") but Rum and Coke says that the libre is an adjective, not a verb. Who's right? Equinox 18:01, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

"free Cuba" = "a Cuba that is free", it is not an imperative. DTLHS (talk) 18:03, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Spanish has a word order that's the reverse of English's for adjectival modifiers, but not for verbs. If libre were a verb, the only way to say this as two words would be "Libre Cuba!". There's nothing wrong with a battle cry being a bare noun phrase- it's actually quite rare for them to be complete sentences. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:33, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
In fact, libre is an imperative verb form, corresponding to the subject usted, so ¡Libre Cuba! does mean "Free Cuba!" as an imperative, speaking formally to one person. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 05:47, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
But it's not "libre Cuba", it's "Cuba libre". DTLHS (talk) 05:59, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I know; I was responding to Chuck's sentence "If libre were a verb, the only way to say this as two words would be 'Libre Cuba!'"; I was pointing out that that sentence needn't be a hypothetical. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 06:58, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

pirog, pierogi[edit]

Should we merge these two pages into a singe main entry? DTLHS (talk) 05:43, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

My first answer is no. The etymologies are similar but not the same and they are different types of dishes, which is a confusion not only in the recipient languages but in the source languages as well, to some extent. Basically, these are mostly pies vs dumplings. Less confusion in Polish dumplings and Russian pies, more confusion in Ukrainian pies and dumplings. Care should be taken in English about which dish they are talking about and whose cuisine. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:52, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
If you think about it, the main difference between a Russian пиро́г (piróg) and a Polish pieróg is the type of dough. --WikiTiki89 17:16, 9 April 2018 (UTC)


There seems to be something called a 'tailgut cyst', so there must be another meaning of 'tailgut' which I didn't put when I started the entry, but I can't find its meaning on its own. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 18:01, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

(It seems to be mentioned in Daniel John Cunningham's Text-book of Anatomy. —Suzukaze-c 00:17, 9 April 2018 (UTC))
I see plenty of uses in a medical sense and also in a music sense. Alternative spellings tail gut and tail-gut seem attestable, possibly in both senses. DCDuring (talk) 02:40, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c: Thank you, for some reason that is not accessible in my location. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 00:05, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
@DCDuring: Thanks, the music sense is the only one I knew. I can't add the other sense of 'tailgut', though. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 00:05, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for adding that sense. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 19:45, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Definition of burn missing sense of nuclear fusion[edit]

The definition of "burn" does mention the sense in which the term os used here, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-burning_process

"The oxygen-burning process is a set of nuclear fusion reactions that take place in massive stars that have used up the lighter elements in their cores. Oxygen-burning is preceded by the neon-burning process and succeeded by the silicon-burning process.”

There are also hydrogen burning, helium burning and carbon burning processes.

罣礙/挂碍 (guà'ài/ke(i)ge/ga-ae)[edit]

Term found in the Heart Sutra, appears to be translation of Sanskrit आवरण (āvaraṇa, covering, or other meanings in this link). Is there a modern term for this in any of the three major East Asian languages? You can check the usage examples at 菩提薩埵.

Also, can this be allowed to be added by CFI? Likely archaic/obsolete term in my view. ~ POKéTalker (ŦC) 04:24, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

@Poketalker: This term is still used in modern Chinese, but it's now more often written as 掛礙挂碍 (guà'ài). Even if it were archaic, I don't see why it would not be allowed by CFI, unless you're talking about a specific Buddhist sense different from the ones listed in the entry. From the translation at 菩提薩埵, it seems to translate to "obstruction", which is easily attestable in Chinese. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:23, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Justinrleung:, thanks. Thought was an obsolete variant for /. Still, in traditional and non-Chinese texts, the sutra uses 罣. Interesting... ~ POKéTalker (ŦC) 04:02, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
@Poketalker: No, 罣 is not obsolete, just rare in simplified Chinese and a bit uncommon in traditional Chinese. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 04:06, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

taruf, tarruf, teruf, terf[edit]

See Citations:terf: taruf, tarruf, teruf and terf seem to be one or more lexemes for a unit of land in India. Are any of them citable in English? What is the etymon and specific meaning? (Pinging @AryamanA, Mahagaja as users who might know or know how to look it up in Sanskrit or Hindi dictionaries.) - -sche (discuss) 17:26, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Sanskrit doesn't have an /f/ sound; if this word exists in Hindi it's probably a borrowing from Persian and/or Arabic. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 19:00, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@-sche: It's तरफ़ (taraf, side, face; direction) judging by the first quote, but I haven't heard of any relation to units of land for it. (I'm also not a farmer though) I'll check my dictionaries and see if anything can be cited. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 01:17, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
I found Bengali তরফ (tôrôph, revenue-collection area) (source). It is cognate to the Hindi word, and judging by this Hindi dictionary's "Mughal glossary" it meant the same thing in Hindi-Urdu during Mughal rule. I'll add the definitions to the Hindi entry. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 01:22, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. I've created an entry for taraf. It's not common, but I think that's just because tarafs are not often mentioned (rather than that taraf is a rare word for a concept often referred to using another word), so I haven't labelled it "rare" or "uncommon". - -sche (discuss) 15:51, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Term shoefie / quotations[edit]

How to add / correct quotations? Just came across your definition of this term and noticed the earliest dated quotations are from 2015. However, I have invented this term back in 2014 for our Photoresk art expo in Brussels when I introduced the first automatic shoefie machine. Here is still the web-site of the expo https://disclosure.photoresk.com/shoefies/ How can I have this information amended? Thank you. Claus Siebeneicher claus@photoresk.com

I expect that this dialog will appear on the entry's talk page. Generally we only show citations from "durably archived" sources, which excludes sites only archived on archival sites that may themselves not be durable. DCDuring (talk) 14:24, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Just curiosity[edit]

Is it "As continue conveys the sense of progression, it is pleonastic to follow it with on" equals to the following?

  • ..., it is pleonastic following it with on
  • ..., following it with on is pleonastic

Is one of the ways more formal or diachronically/diatopically marked? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 13:09, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

"it is pleonastic to follow it with on" and "following it with on is pleonastic" are both fine (I'm not sure if there is a difference in formality). But "it is pleonastic following it with on" is wrong, although if you insert a comma "it is pleonastic, following it with on" then it sounds very colloquial or as though the clarification is an afterthought, meaning you meant to just say "it is pleonastic" and then realized you need to add "following it with on". --WikiTiki89 15:41, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
The former it is not fine because it contains "it" twice with different meaning in it. Rhyminreason (talk) 20:48, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
That's not the reason. --WikiTiki89 20:51, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

wazoo, up the wazoo, out the wazoo[edit]

Are these in fact vulgar, as currently labelled? I thought they were euphemistic/bowdlerized words, somewhat like hoo-ha. - -sche (discuss) 16:19, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

These are euphemistic and about as mild as hoo-ha, like you say. Also, it might be worth mentioning that "wazoo" doesn't really exist outside of these two phrases. Ultimateria (talk) 18:15, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
By vulgar we mean "Language considered distasteful or obscene." per Appendix:Glossary. I wouldn't call these obscene and don't think most others would either. If they were truly distasteful E*Trade wouldn't have used "out the wazoo" in their award-winning ad. I suppose they are just informal. DCDuring (talk) 18:23, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks; I relabelled them as "colloquial". - -sche (discuss) 16:40, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

heraldry term?[edit]

I can't find a translation of the Catalan adjective caironat, but I can translate the definition as "In heraldry, that rests on one of its angles, applied to square coats of arms". What is the English term? Ultimateria (talk) 18:13, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't know, but maybe you can find it if you browse http://www.apl385.com/gilling/herldref.htm. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 18:30, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Es diu cantoned. Bona nit! 猛犸象牙 (talk) 22:04, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
er no. — If I needed such a term I'd probably say lozengewise or bendwise. —Tamfang (talk) 05:55, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, a couple years ago I spent ages trying to find a translation for caironat too. Never got one. --Cien pies 6 (talk) 12:44, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Well, I've at least added the definition given above (confirmed by Wikimedia Common's category of "Caironat shields"). Probably "(of a square) lozengewise" or "...diamondwise" would cover it. - -sche (discuss) 16:39, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


I made a change in the page Pornocracy, translating Sæculum as Century. It was translated as age and someone undone my translation just because in the Wikipedia page is translated as age but in Latin, Sæculum means century, not age, epoch or whatever. Latin for age is aetate. Someone can help me?

That's a different sense of age. Here is the entry in the dictionary nearest to my hand (Smith & Lockwood):
saeculum (poet. saeclum), ī, n. I. the period of one generation (i.e. 33⅓ years), a generation. 1. Lit. a. Prop.: Cic., Verg., Liv., etc. b. More vaguely: aureum, Cic.; Pyrrhae, Hor. 2. Transf. a. the people living at a particular time, a generation : Pl., Lucr., Cic., Verg., etc. b. In pl.  : successive generations, races : Lucr. c. the spirit of the age, the times : nec corrumpere et corrumpi saeculum vocatur. Tac. II. the full period of a man's life, a period of a hundred years, a century. a. Prop.: Varr., Cic., Hor. b. More vaguely : an age : Cic. [It secolo ; Fr. siècle.]
Tamfang (talk) 06:08, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

righteous among the nations[edit]

Is this really plural only? And are there alternative capitalisations? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 12:37, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Really the English phrase is an adjective. The Hebrew phrase is plural (but perhaps it can be used in the singular as well). On a separate note, this is the name of an award, is it really dictionary-worthy? --WikiTiki89 16:32, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
There's some singular use: "[name] was honored as a Righteous Among the Nations in [year]" (with a it's singular and a noun). But is there enough for attestation? The adjectival use, e.g. "the Righteous among the Nations award", could also be a noun in an English spaced semi-compound, but in this case it's no title. As a title, if that exists, it could be a noun too like Lord is a title and a noun. - 10:12, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
The ordinary use is adjectival "he was recognized as Righteous Among the Nations". Without the "a", it's adjectival. I didn't say that a title can't be a noun. Not all titles are the same. --WikiTiki89 14:15, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
Recently, there was an interesting discussion about (the) use of (the) articles at Wiktionary:Information_desk#that's_the_wrong_direction. Grammar is complicated and apparently arbitrary. Rhyminreason (talk) 21:06, 12 April 2018 (UTC)


These definitions are...pretty bad. Is this the page to find volunteers for rewriting definitions? I'm terrible at lexicography and I don't know where to ask. Ultimateria (talk) 00:45, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Can you point out what you are dinding badly written? The ety is complicated, the definitions seem straight forward.
No, this is not the page for a request like that. At least you need to be more specific. Rhyminreason (talk) 08:04, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
The definitions are incredibly vague. "Covered" how? How does "caused" apply to a prefix? At the very least, each sense needs an example. Ultimateria (talk) 22:31, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Ultimateria: Just ignore him. You're right, this entry needs work. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:34, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


Found at Category:English entries that don't exist

  1. pathological fear of hearing a specific word or name.
    A classic case of onomatophobia is the actors' superstition for the word “Macbeth”‎; they never utter it, but use euphemisms instead: “The Scottish Play”‎, “MacBee”‎.

sarri.greek (talk) 19:49, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

It had two citations already; I've managed to find at least one more. Ten years after Conrad's comment that it'd be nice if someone could find a third citation, it's finally citable! So I've resurrected the entry. :)
A miracle! Two...! How nice of you @-sche:. Your citations, always inspiring, especially for us, non-anglophones. Thanks sarri.greek (talk) 21:19, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Kakistocracy etymology appears to be wrong -- please help[edit]


I don't the time right now learn how to contribute (but I would like to do so).

Problem: The word "kakistocracy" is topical in the current political environment re Trump, but the entry in Wiktionary has an apparently wrong attribution in its Etymology.

Specifically, the current Etymology states that "The word was coined by the English author Thomas Love Peacock (1785–1866) in his 1829 novella The Misfortunes of Elphin as the opposite of aristocracy (see the quotation)."

However, there is a credible citation to a much earlier (1829-1644=185) use of the word:

1644, Paul Gosnold, "A SERMON preached at the PUBLIQUE FAST the ninth day of Aug. 1644 at St. Maries, OXFORD, BEFORE the honorable Members of the two Houses of PARLIAMENT, There assembled. By PAUL GOSNOLD Master of Arts. And published by authority.", OXFORD, Printed Henry Hall. Cover+30 pages. Early English Books Online-Text Creation Partnership (EEBO-TCP Phase 1) Ann Arbor, MI (USA); Oxford (UK), 2008-09 URL: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/a41582.0001.001/21:A41582.0001.001?page=root;size=125;vid=94937;view=text

"Therefore we need not make any scruple of praying against such: [...] against those tempests of the State, those restlesse spirits who can no longer live, then be stickling and medling; who are stung with a perpetuall itch of changing and innovating, transforming our old Hierarchy into a new Presbytery, and this againe into a newer Independency; and our well-temperd Monarchy into a mad kinde of Kakistocracy." (pages 17-18)

So, someone, please check this out and perhaps edit the entry accordingly.


  • Seems legit. I've amended the entry accordingly. Thanks. Ƿidsiþ 13:55, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

How'd Chell survive sleeping without waking up for anything, for 5 million years?[edit]

Also, what's the word for the definition "1 million years"? Please answer both questions. - I is American English.

mega-annum or megayear. The Chell question isn't relevant to a dictionary; try asking at Wikipedia. Equinox 00:00, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

It's a Portal 2 question. It's about a game. Let someone from Game Theory answer that one. Also, I thought I was on Wikipedia. - I is American English.


Anyone have an idea where the name of the wolf-like dog in Lessing's fable has it's name from, what it means? These are closely modeled after Aesop's fables. "Hylax" looks foreign enough to be from Greek, as the less mysterious Lykodes from the same story, while the well known Meister Lampe seems to be a pun on french lapin (rabbit) and Lampe (lamp). Is it related to hyena (which has a surprising etymology)? Also a play on words? Here's the reference at Deutsches Textarchiv. --Rhyminreason (talk) 02:42, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

See LSJ for some Greek words that seem to have the same root. The stem seems to be a verb meaning "bark, howl". L&S has an entry for Hylax, the proper name of some dog, glossed as Barker. DCDuring (talk) 03:33, 15 April 2018 (UTC)



Is there any particular reason there are two sections « Letter » for this entry—perhaps could they be merged? — Automatik (talk) 10:53, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done (formatting of the first letter section was obvy not correct: definition about head, missing definition in the definition section). - 23:56, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Please advise how to add the word "citadel" as a reference to a Salvation Army place of worship[edit]

I would like add the word "citadel" (a Salvation Army place of worship but there doesn't seem to be a "wizard" tool to assist people in adding content to wiktionary. A google search for:

"citadel definition Salvation Army"

turned up the following results:

www.thefreedictionary.com www.thefreedictionary.com%2FSalvation%2BArmy&usg=AOvVaw1zQvNFW1XtNBCNHZgR8s9K

en.oxforddictionaries.com en.oxforddictionaries.com%2Fdefinition%2Fcitadel&usg=AOvVaw3qdipkGXdyPgQ6qEbbuW0t

www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk%2Fnorfolk%2Fcontent%2Farticles%2F2007%2F08%2F20%2Ffaith_salvation_army_20070820_feature.shtml&usg=AOvVaw2Csd_-zhJkE-QWGQ4oYgjm

www.sheffieldcitadel.co.uk www.sheffieldcitadel.co.uk%2Falpha%2F&usg=AOvVaw1dfWbnaFedZAif43tfUCJq

Please help. Adrian816 (talk) 14:14, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

spin alley, spin row[edit]

WP gives these as synonyms of spin room. Is that correct? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 15:19, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


As in "single-issue politics", "single-issue party". Is this lexicalised? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 15:24, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

treasure chest[edit]

"The chest that held the royal treasury." What royal treasury does this refer to specifically? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:35, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

“Sugar beet” in Persian[edit]

In “Lauferica” (1987, Orient), Eiichi Imoto writes:

On the streets of Iran boiled sugar beets sell well. The sugar beet (Beta vulgaris) is called labū or lapū in Persian. Pers. labū or lapū is derived from Pahl. *lapūy, *lapūg or *lapūk. Pahl. *lapūk is derived from O Pers. *lā̆pūka-.

Can these Persian words be confirmed, and what are their native-script forms? @ZxxZxxZ Could you help? Hayyim has:

لبو (laboo) Noun Boiled beet.

And Steingass:

لبلبو lablabū, Beet boiled and eaten with whey and garlic.

Asking because these words bear an interesting resemblance to Chinese 蘿蔔 (and variants, < Old Chinese *rabuk ?).

Also, could the Persian be borrowed from Akkadian 𒇻𒊬 (laptu, liptu, turnip) (~ Hebrew לֶפֶת (lefet, turnip), Classical Syriac ܠܰܦܬܳܐ (laftā, turnip), Arabic لِفْت (lift, turnip)), like proposed in TURNIP in Encyclopædia Iranica? Is the -ūka an explainable element?

Thanks in advance! Wyang (talk) 13:26, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

There are lots of interesting resemblances when it comes to words for turnips: there are cognates or borrowings to the Akkadian word in Arabic and Hebrew, Latin has rāpum and nāpus, and Greek has νᾶπῠ (nâpu) (said to be a possible borrowing from Egytian). My impression is that there's a very old word for turnip and related plants (see Ancient Greek σῐ́νᾱπῐ (sínāpi), for instance) that's been wandering around the Middle East and elsewhere for thousands of years, perhaps as long as there have been domesticated turnips. Sugar beets, on the other hand, are only a couple of centuries old. New things tend to receive variations of existing names for similar things, so this is what one would expect. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:06, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
Don't forget Ancient Greek ῥάπυς (rhápus), which corresponds to the Iranic cognate most closely. Crom daba (talk) 00:33, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
The sense "boiled beet" is correct for لبو (labu) and لبلبو (lablabu), but regarding لبلبو (lablabu) in particular, it is less common in Iran, and I can't confirm that particular sense based on dictionaries other than Steingass. لبلبو (lablabu) also has other senses in some dialects of Iran, including "blackberry" in Persian of Gorgan. --Z 09:41, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
@ZxxZxxZ Thank you! Any luck with the Middle and Old Persian forms? They look like they were taken from somewhere, though it is not clear what the source for them was. Wyang (talk) 09:50, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
No problem. We can derive it from Middle Persian because the suffix ـو (-u) (from Middle Persian suffix [Term?] (/-ūg/)) which forms adjectives from nouns (if I'm not mistaken) is not a productive suffix in Persian, though I know it is a productive suffix in some other modern Iranian dialects, beside Middle Iranian languages. The first component could be لب (lab, lip). --Z 15:46, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

OED sex and gender[edit]

The last OED update included a load of revisions and additions to terms related to sex and gender – there's a very interesting summary of it here which I think even non-subscribers can access. Since this is an area we've struggled with a bit, and which attracts a lot of attention, it might be a useful read. Ƿidsiþ 07:47, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Their update pages are visible to non-subscribers and can be an interesting source of information and ideas, or at least an interesting read.--Prosfilaes (talk) 20:30, 17 April 2018 (UTC)


Can someone clean up underneath? The quotes for the adverb use the word below instead of underneath, and I'm not convinced that her underneath is an adverb. It should be a noun, fitting that definition well. Danielklein (talk) 09:05, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Good catch. Looks like someone had a thinko. — Ungoliant (falai) 12:36, 18 April 2018 (UTC)


seems to require a proper definition. Equinox 09:08, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Seems, shmeems. DCDuring (talk) 19:27, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Memes. —Suzukaze-c 02:01, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Note: This was deleted without RFD. Rhyminreason (talk) 03:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
By the entry's creator and sole contributor. DCDuring (talk) 03:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

RFV: sweep for English natives[edit]

Did I write this "# An expanse or a swath, a strip of land." taken from swath right?

In other words: are swath, expanse, sweep, spread, stretch all synonyms?

Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:39, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes. Swath might be dated; sweep might be 'literary'. There are probably other slight differences in usage, but not much in definition, IMO. DCDuring (talk) 19:16, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm English and "swath" doesn't work for me. But "swathe" does. A vast swathe of southern England.
I learned it as swath (noun), as in "a broad swath of the population", and swathe (verb), as in "the forest was swathed in fog". Similar to breath (noun) + breathe (verb), or loath (adjective) and loathe (verb), where the verb forms have voiced final consonants. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:01, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian budemo/будемо[edit]

@Crom daba, Demilux, Dijan, Maria Sieglinda von Nudeldorf, Vorziblix and anyone else who knows Serbo-Croatian: an anon just created budemo/будемо and called it a pronoun meaning "we". Is that right? I thought it was a verb form, but I don't know Serbo-Croatian. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 19:32, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Now cleaned up by Per utramque cavernam. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 11:50, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Night of Broken Glass[edit]

WP gives this as a translation of German Kristallnacht, but the evidence of GB looks pretty scarce. Is it actually used? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 09:50, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Google Books makes it pretty clear it's a translation of Kristallnacht. HathiTrust offers at least this cite for a use; there seems to be a lot more if we accept versions in quotes.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:59, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Well, it's not a proper translation of Kristallnacht; at best it's a semi-calque (Nacht = night; Kristall = crystal – broken glass) or explanation.
"quotes" as in usages with quotation marks (AKA quotes) around it, or as in citations? If it's the second, there could be a proper non-quote usage (only "could", as there are exceptions like the quote not being a proper quote but a translation). - 23:53, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


So, I'm creating entries in Bulgarian now apparently. I figure брегова means coastal, but is probably not the lemma. Then I get no further, as I suck at Bulgarian. Can someone check the entry? --Cien pies 6 (talk) 13:45, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

If you suck at Bulgarian, maybe you should leave the creation of Bulgarian entries to people who don't. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:55, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I totally agree with you! --Cien pies 6 (talk) 17:09, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done --WikiTiki89 16:09, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


Sense 2 of the noun ("Taking up too much of something so others cannot use it"). Is that not just the present participle of hog? – Gormflaith (talk) 21:51, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

To be precise, it's a w:gerund.
The etymology of the corresponding verb under hog is peculiar, what's the relation to castrated animals? German hocken in the sense of besetzen might be related (literally to squat), could it be? 07:20, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

-cast suffix entry?[edit]

Should we have one? It seems to have developed its own life and personality beyond the parent broadcast. Possible candidates might include blogcast, multicast, nowcast, peercast, podcast, unicast, videocast, vodcast. Equinox 07:16, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

That would be a normal development. The uses in peercast, singlecast, and unicast, in particular, seem to contrast with the meaning in broadcast. And it doesn't seem like a return to cast#Verb. DCDuring (talk) 23:32, 21 April 2018 (UTC)


I am doing a bit of editing and encountered Wikipedia's [1] in which they say, mostly believably (to me anyway, Latin always was Greek to me)
"The Latin word exuviae, meaning "things stripped from a body", is found only in the plural. Exuvia is a derived singular usage that is becoming more common, but in fact this is incorrect. Only a single work by Propertius uses the term Exuvium as a singular form"
In the Wiktionary entry OTOH, we have a whole table of Latin inflections, singular and plural, and ploughing through Ainsworth, I don't see where the author of that table got her/his authority from. I am tempted to edit the item in line with WP's entry, but could I first beg a bit of input at this end.

I must admit that exuvia/e always did set my teeth on edge, just as virus/i did (as I am sure it used to set true-blue Romans' on edge, who never failed to say "viruses" whenever they desired the plural), but let that wait till we have these exuviuses settled.

Cheers JonRichfield (talk) 11:51, 21 April 2018 (UTCT)

The Cassell's New Latin Dictionary gives only "exuviae, -arum". All the examples given are in the plural. Caeruleancentaur (talk) 19:07, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Georges' dict gives "exuvium, iī, n. (exuo), Nbf. v. exuviae (w. s.), Prop. 4, 10, 6." and "Sing. exuvia, ae, f., Augustin. serm. 59, 1 Mai (nova bibl. patr. 1. p. 118).". In later ML and (early) NL, exuvia could have become more common than in antique Latin and early ML. It's possible that the "is becoming more common" properly is "is becoming more common IN ENGLISH". - 22:16, 21 April 2018 (UTC)


hi why very words in wiktionary not reference in bodem of word

Maybe doesn't properly answer the question, but English Wiktionary has WT:CFI (rules for inclusion) and WT:RFV (for verification if a term really exists by Wiktionary's inclusion rules). Reference material, like dictionaries, can have invented terms which English wiktionary doesn't accept. - 22:09, 21 April 2018 (UTC)


So, I'm creating entries in Taíno now apparently. I figure Borinquen means Puerto Rico, but it is probably missing something. I get no further, as I suck at Taíno. Can someone check the entry? --Cien pies 6 (talk) 18:29, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

No way this is attested, right? @Victar, -scheΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:00, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
If you spend time in PR, you'll see this and related terms.  :)
FWIW, I'm used to seeing the forms Boriquén (Puerto Rico) and Boricua (a native Puertorriqueño). The ES WP has articles at w:es:Boriquén and w:es:Boricua. The ES WT entry at es:boricua gives an etymology source as Arqueología lingüística: estudios modernos dirigidos al rescate y reconstruccíon del arahuaco taíno by Manuel Álvarez.
HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:03, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
I think you may be missing the point... attested as Taíno. (We have boricua, by the way, with the correct capitalisation.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:15, 24 April 2018 (UTC)


This is a preposition, not an adverb, right? Caeruleancentaur (talk) 19:03, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

No, I think it's an adverb indeed; it's always used (as far as I know) with σε (se), which is the real preposition. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 19:16, 21 April 2018 (UTC)


This seems like some kind of restaurant term:

2017 November 26, Natange Smith, “How To Cook Like A Bajan with Chef Rhea Gilkes”, in Nation News[2]:
It was at The Cliff restaurant where I did estage for six months, I was then hired by Sandy Lane Hotel.

Also [3], "I am definitely planning on returning to the Fat Duck for another estage, don’t get me wrong it’s no summer camp, it is very (very!) hard work from the early hours of the morning until late into the night."

What does it mean? DTLHS (talk) 23:34, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

  • I believe that it is an internship - where the person works for (next to) nothing but gets experience. With luck he gets offered a job at the end. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:31, 22 April 2018 (UTC)


So, I'm creating entries in Polish again apparently. I figure odegracie is a form of odegrać, going by what grać says. A couple of dictionaries say it's role-play, but what do I know? I suck at Polsih. Can someone check the entry? --Cien pies 6 (talk) 07:29, 23 April 2018 (UTC)


Is this Japanese term (in Wikipedia) common enough in English? DonnanZ (talk) 14:55, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Digging through those 14 hits, only 5 gave any preview, and all 5 treated ashiyu as non-English. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:10, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
So an English speaker would usually call it a footbath, they even look like a paddling pool. Thanks. DonnanZ (talk) 08:11, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
@Eirikr: I tried googling "an ashiyu" and found enough to make an entry worthwhile. I borrowed the Japanese from Wikipedia, which needs checking of course (if you or someone else would be so kind). Cheers. DonnanZ (talk) 11:15, 24 April 2018 (UTC)


The article autarchy claims autarky as a synonym. It is not! It is a homophone with an entirely different meaning. I tried to correct it but was reverted and referred to this page to discuss. Is there a convincing reason to permit this error to persist? -- 15:01, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Following the advice at template:rfv, I had a look at Google books and found this, which reports the OED as saying that the terms have been used interchangeably. So I guess the article has to reflect reality, even if reality is wrong[!]. But it matters: North Korea is both an autarchy and an autarky whereas the Irish Free State was the latter but definitely not the former. So surely there ought to be indicator that caution is advised? -- 15:15, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
If there is a reliable source stating that the words are not equal, you could add a usage note with the source as reference. - 23:00, 23 April 2018 (UTC)


So, apparently I'm editing i Hindi now. I took a stab at तालियों. --Cien pies 6 (talk) 20:48, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm so sorry, @AryamanA. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:59, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
@Cien pies 6, Metaknowledge: It's good. I'll try to add the WT:ACCEL entry creation shortcuts for the inflection tables at some point. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 21:44, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Chinese: Alternate Characters (异体字) [edit]

Two weeks ago, I added an alternate character to a character's page (), no problem. (see [4]). The result was perfect (looks like this: alt. forms ). Right.

Today I added an alternate character to another page () by the exact same method as above (see [5]). But for some reason, the alternate character appears on the page next to the character itself (looks like this: alt. forms ). Wrong.

请问, how can I get the /旗 out of the alternate character box on the 旗 page???

Thanks for any help! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

挑剔 (Pinyin): tiāoti, tiāotī, tiāotì[edit]

The tiāotì reading is labelled as a 'common misreading'.

(Standard Chinese, common misreading)+

Pinyin: tiāotì

Isn't it better to say 'common variant reading' or maybe 'common variant reading, considered as a misreading' or something else? idk

xiandai hanyu guifan cidian ed 3 pg 1287 specifically says that tì is a misreading: "不读tí或tì。"

--Geographyinitiative (talk) 08:25, 24 April 2018 (UTC)