User talk:Wyang

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  • Archive 1 — 2013/01/18 21:12 (UTC) to 2014/05/24 00:43 (UTC)
  • Archive 2 — 2014/05/25 15:03 (UTC) to 2015/01/25 11:17 (UTC)

User talk[edit]


Hi Frank,

Are you interested in making enhancements to the accelerated {{ja-new}}? It would be great if you could add alt forms, synonyms, antonyms, derivations, more PoS and categorisations (by kana?) similar to {{zh-new}}. suru-verbs and na-adjectives would be nice to have -moved from {{ja new}}. It must be too much work but you are the only one who could be interested and could do it. Please consider, maybe long-term.

There are outstanding things in the Russian pron. and Hindi, Lao translit. modules. I'm just giving you my wish list, which you can ignore, of course. :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:31, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I've converted {{ja-new}} to Lua and expanded it. Russian pron., Burmese translit. modules fixed. Not sure about the errors in Hindi translit module; having someone explain what rules these failed ones are illustrating would be great. Similarly for the Lao one. Wyang (talk) 09:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for your help. I will definitely use this template. Do you think {{ja-pron}} could be included? I can't help with Lao but I'll address the rules for Hindi. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:48, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Frank, could you add multiple parts of speech, please? For example, I'd like to make noun and suru-verb for 性的虐待 in one go. Maybe I missed something but I don't understand how to make suru-verbs (even for one PoS) from the documentation. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:56, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Another thing that's not working quite well is terms with mixed scripts, such as 孫の手 --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:16, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
{{ja-pron}} included. Suru-verb can be made by having "s" or "suru" as the 2nd parameter, and include an extra 4th parameter for the other definition (diff). Non-pure kanji titles should be handled with <>, e.g. diff. Wyang (talk) 00:02, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks again :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Question about Template:zh-forms[edit]

I've noticed that, in the past few days, the definition section (beige/light tan box) that appears when invoking Template:zh-forms isn't showing any definition information but just a simple dash. I see that you edited Module:zh-forms on Jan. 20 and was just curious if this change was intentional. Cheers! Bumm13 (talk) 01:23, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that change was intentional. I think definitions should only be provided at the "Definitions" section for character entries (e.g. ), so I disabled it. Wyang (talk) 02:45, 26 January 2015 (UTC)


It looks like Wyangbot unintentionally left behind some broken(?) text a couple of times. —umbreon126 05:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, fixed. Wyang (talk) 05:56, 27 January 2015 (UTC)




You may have noticed that people tend to ignore you. The reason for this is that your English (if it is English at all) is horrible and people can’t be bothered with trying to figure out what you’re on about. We also speak other languages here. Perhaps you could try to learn another language such as French or Spanish, and if you learn to write it correctly, we will be able to understand you. —Stephen (Talk) 05:30, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I think you are being unfair. This is more intelligible than some of the things posted on WT:TRREQ to have them translated into Sanskrit. Also, we might be speaking with User:Sven70. — Keφr 10:00, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Definitely Sven70. Still, the error does illustrate the point: cryptic strings of abbreviated half-words are unreadable to the point of being unrecognizable. It's sad, but sheer force of will alone isn't enough to communicate in a text-based medium like this. I know it's intensely frustrating for an intelligent, literate, articulate man like him to be unable to communicate, but he needs to realize that this isn't working- and not because anyone hates disabled people, or is out to get him. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:06, 27 January 2015 (UTC)


I'm sorry to know that you suffer from RSI. I know it can be very painful at times, and typing would be something that aggravates your condition (you would undoubtedly know this better than me, being an MD yourself). That said, please try to make your posts as intelligible as possible when you write, as people prefer and are used to reading grammatical sentences, not unintelligible acronymic idiolects. I couldn't fully make out the meaning of your post above either. Other alternatives to typing, such as Voice Finger, may be helpful if you find typing too difficult. Wyang (talk) 11:24, 27 January 2015 (UTC)


Based on other websites and my own experience, the plural of "epulis" is "epulides" NOT "epulises"

   You are correct. Epulises exists but it’s very rare. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:18, 23 January 2015 (UTC)


Sorry but I can't fully make sense out of your reply. Wyang (talk) 23:03, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

furthrex 9:20, 29 January 2015 Vahagn Petrosyan (Talk | contribs) blocked (Talk) with an expiry time of 3 days (anonymous users only, account creation disabled) (Adding nonsense/gibberish)+以后老醉’加了半年的《usualsuspcts,adstephn【‘knukltypr'-patern 那ow=挑衅以后blokme,knowin没有人会招呼【wo有办法小数量的qualityedits不重要,v。sadinded【你很知道有那么多gaps,blockin人=解决法,不是?【那个亚美尼亚的admin会开’犹太人的‘开玩笑,repulsive:(【我都有办法找得到哪些讨厌的冒犯性的edits-sv

我理解你的情况,但是我还是希望你能够用正常的、非简写的段落。我读你的回复都非常吃力。Wyang (talk) 10:45, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


没有关系。Wyang (talk) 03:49, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

You are currently unable to edit pages on Wiktionary.

You can still read pages, but you cannot edit, move, or create them.

Editing from has been disabled by SemperBlotto for the following reason(s): Vandalism: repeat offense (multiple)

This block has been set to expire: 11:01, 29 July 2015. +cbloklog:( 11:22, 11 February 2015 (UTC) ermission error

You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason: You are currently unable to edit pages on Wiktionary.

You can still read pages, but you cannot edit, move, or create them.

Editing from has been disabled by Liliana-60 for the following reason(s): Abusing multiple accounts: Sven

This block has been set to expire: infinite.

Even if blocked, you will usually still be able to edit your user talk page and contact other editors and administrators by e-mail. -- note:i'vRSI>shorthand ashands/arms=painfl BUTH==ALK,ADISABLD=abusr/vandal/munchausn/att.sekretcetcaftralALNOON-ABLDPPL'DBEGASDNXTERMINATEDasalwmfnaziasholzno!!



See User talk:Wjcd#行政員以及管理員--GZWDer (talk) 15:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Wyang (talk) 22:23, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

ipa[4english fe[edit]

kanitb.importedfr.othrwebsourses?[loadsmisin.. ps.ys,ifelINTL.STANDEDENGL.nedsMAJORSPELINOVERHAUL,tru[becomin fonetik'gen+izier2learn

1) I'm sure there are resources for that. 2) Billions would instantaneously become illiterate. Wyang (talk) 07:19, 29 January 2015 (UTC)



ITHINKdausagenote=rong[@-sche posted

butWYANGmightnomore..[+filinindaGAPSdb.great! fe.搁taiyumeanin?

It could be mildly offensive or non-offensive, depending on how it is said. I don't know what you mean in the last part. Wyang (talk) 00:09, 30 January 2015 (UTC)



In case you hadn't noticed...[edit]

Your "rewrite" to Module:zh-usex seems to have gone "rewrong"... Chuck Entz (talk) 14:50, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Rethanks, refixed now. Wyang (talk) 00:09, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

好玩 vs 囟腦門[edit]

Hi. I couldn't work out why the older entry 好玩 lists the hanzi for the erhua entry in the pronunciation box, while the entry I just created 囟腦門 doesn't. I followed the same template/formatting. Any ideas? ---> Tooironic (talk) 21:14, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh, that's weird, it seems to be working now. Thanks anyway. ---> Tooironic (talk) 21:16, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


Could I get your help to harmonise the Mandarin and Cantonese readings into the Chinese reading, when you have the time? Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 21:59, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Sure, but it seems to be already done by Anatoli. Wyang (talk) 07:27, 2 February 2015 (UTC)


According to Wenlin, this can also mean "or" in literary Chinese. Do you think that's correct? ---> Tooironic (talk) 22:18, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's right. Wyang (talk) 07:28, 2 February 2015 (UTC)


Hi Frank, Wyangbot has incorrectly processed this character as simplified, probably because zh-hanzi-box had characters in the wrong order. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:43, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. The bot can't handle such high-level errors... Wyang (talk) 07:34, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I was just letting you know, in case you may need to check something else in the future runs. I don't know how your bot works either, it was just my guess. :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:55, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Chengyu and xiehouyu[edit]

Hi Frank. I noticed we have a Chinese xiehouyu category (Category:Chinese xiehouyu), could we create one for Chinese chengyu as well? I think it's way overdue. At the moment users of Wiktionary cannot distinguish between ordinary idioms and chengyu. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:24, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Good idea but there are currently 2,294 entries Category:Chinese_idioms. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
That's OK. Obviously it's a big project, but we need to categorise them all eventually. At the moment it's 亂七八糟. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:58, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
There's a lot of work. Converting remaining: Category:Mandarin_proverbs_in_traditional_script, Category:Mandarin proper nouns in simplified script, basic 字 entries without definitions or badly formatted. E.g. I did and today, which are probably in the first 200 most common Chinese words! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:12, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I as a mediocre user of Wiktionary thought "Chinese idiom" = chengyu too. What is the difference (please allow me to be a five-minute fool...)? Wyang (talk) 07:38, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Good question. My understanding of the difference may not be right. @Tooironic: What do you think? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:53, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
  • See the Usage notes at 成語. A chengyu must have four characters (with some exceptions), and a story or historical quotation in its etymology. So expressions like 八竿子打不著, 包在...身上, 出難題, etc. wouldn't count. (The first one is a 俗語, the second one a fixed sentence structure and the third one a common collocation. But at the moment on Wiktionary we put anything remotely idiomatic in the idioms category which is misleading.) ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:42, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
  • OK, I've created the category Category:Chinese chengyu. See 畫蛇添足 for an example. The PoS alias for Chengyu in {{zh-pron}} is "ch" or "cy". They will continue to use the ===Idiom=== header. Wyang (talk) 09:11, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Definitionless Chinese entries[edit]

Hi Frank, do you think you're able to add this code to Chinese entries lacking definitions, such ?

# {{rfdef|lang=zh}}

Perhaps most definitionless entries could be brought to this format by your bot? It would be easier then to add missing readings and senses?



# {{rfdef|lang=zh}}

I noticed that when using {{zh-new}}, Mandarin, Min Nan and Hakka readings are usually loaded automatically but not Cantonese. What do you think? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:37, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry I haven't been very responsive lately. I've changed the output of {{zh-new}} when used on monosyllabic entries. Not sure about the rfdef thing... in most cases it seems we can transfer the definitions directly to Chinese, so rfdef wouldn't be necessary. The Cantonese readings are usually absent because CantoDict had different link addresses for characters from words. I'll probably use some source to replenish Cantonese character readings when I've got time. Wyang (talk) 08:20, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Don't be sorry. Yeah, I'm all for copying the defs from the translingual sections, if it's easy. The |cat= will have to be filled manually, though. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:27, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Cantonese should be automatically loaded now. :) Wyang (talk) 10:07, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

削減 as in [edit]

Hi Frank, when you have time could you add xuè as the Taiwan variant pronunciation for 削減 as in ? (Mainland: xuē.) Thanks ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:08, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Sure, done. Wyang (talk) 06:13, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Many thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:52, 13 February 2015 (UTC)



A townhouse (in Taiwan). Wyang (talk) 06:07, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


Sure, done. Wyang (talk) 10:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


当然,一点也不复杂,用{{zh-new}}或按照已有条目即可。Wyang (talk) 03:46, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


已經非常簡單了,請見模板檔案頁。Wyang (talk) 10:27, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

dum q[edit] n'meiquanxi youfenbiema?[dumtw.teachers'makebigdealoutof'difrens.. 11:19, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

There are some differences. The former usually corresponds to no problem#Interjection sense 1, whereas the latter usually corresponds to no problem#Interjection sense 2. Wyang (talk) 06:15, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

wotrydgeng说明那些条目,可能你有法看一下? 11:25, 15 February 2015 (UTC)


Please deal with this page. --kc_kennylau (talk) 03:36, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Done. Wyang (talk) 09:31, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

and [edit]

I have spilt these two word to different etymologies. Please check if what I have done is correct.--GZWDer (talk) 07:20, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

No problem, done. Wyang (talk) 03:46, 16 February 2015 (UTC)[edit]

跟那个台湾的dichotomy prc/tw我没法表示繁体w/g-py除非你知道个解决法【他们的注音系统蠢蛋的样子一直要记得音节的声调whichidun:(是个太下流的软体问题包括为他们自己hedsheik~~~~

(To the anonymous guy) I'm sure that he understands English. There is no need to mechanically translate to Chinese. (To Wyang) Let me try to translate it... Nope, I can't translate it back to English. --kc_kennylau (talk) 11:22, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't know of an input method that converts Wade-Giles to Traditional Chinese, but conceivably there will be many that do so. If you know Pinyin, there are many input methods that produce Traditional Chinese. I've fixed the entry for you. Please be careful with your editting and don't confuse Chinese and English commas (, vs ,). Wyang (talk) 21:17, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

w[ith googlpinyin,sory[imstuck w/wot ruantitamentigong[gongyonngdiannao-editin;)m,naqiehuan wohaiyao bianxiguan36.228.119.92 12:35, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

或可藉助某些有簡繁轉換工具的網頁,抑或逐字用維基詞典轉化。Wyang (talk) 10:26, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[edit]

你知道怎么要link m。ricci2en。wikipedia? 12:20, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Please see my edit there. Wyang (talk) 21:35, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

a-zheyang:)[ithout~linkin naxingmingzaitxtlimian[youbanfa,danwowangji/buqingchu36.228.115.73 12:27, 17 February 2015 (UTC)


Mandarin: 笨 (zh) (bèn), 蠢 (zh) (chǚn), 呆《不需要trema但我不知咋么改《那个拼音应该有办法自动的ad【跟那有关系的,有办法制造toggle2NUMERALS4表示声调?这样我看得更清楚163.32.124.120 12:42, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

已改。 Wyang (talk) 21:35, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

ta[tonemarx=v.hard2c4me[woyizhi/lao xuanze'numerals@mdbg/perakun>qingchu36.230.241.180 12:06, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

編輯框下方有個符號欄,編輯框上方也有個特殊字符的功能,如果看不清可以放大瀏覽器頁面。Wyang (talk) 10:24, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

zheshiwoyisi 07:06, 19 February 2015 (UTC)


有办法下visibility一次点就以后一直表示完全发音资料? 12:47, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

這個我不太清楚。Wyang (talk) 21:35, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

yinweixianzai Visibility Show pronunciations an>geibiaoshi gengduocompound-hanzide yisi,qiguai:~ 11:59, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

應該可以通過寫一個插件在個人偏好裡面使系統記住個人的選擇,但我對這方面的技術不熟悉。Wyang (talk) 10:22, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


I wonder if you're the one who's responsible for the template. I'd like to report a bug. As you can see on entries like "cua", the pronunciation is wrong. /kwaː/ can only be the pronunciation of "qua", not "cua". Bear in mind that the orthographic ua is only pronounced /waː/ if preceded by q; otherwise, it's pronounced as a diphthong, perhaps /uɜ/ or /uə/. Would you fix the template?

P/S: I've just came across another problem with quả. It's supposed to be pronounced /kwaː/, not /kwɜ/. Geez, someone's got it all backward.Fumiko Take (talk) 16:38, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, fixed now. Wyang (talk) 00:09, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. But there's still a problem. I'd say /kwɜ/ is not the pronunciation of "cua", but rather of "quơ". Like I said, the orthographic ua is pronounced like a diphthong (/uɜ/ or /uə/) if not preceded by q. /wɜ/ should be the pronunciation of , although this sequence is rather rare, i.e it exists in very few used syllables that some (even native) people may not properly articulate such as thuở, huơ, quơ, quở.Fumiko Take (talk) 01:22, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
It seems that the template has some issues with the glide /w/. I'd like to represent practical combinations here, hope it'll help you fix the template. Fumiko Take (talk) 04:14, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Phoneme sequence(s) Preceded by q Otherwise
/wa/ quă
/waj/ quay oay
/wajk(ŋ)/ quach oach
/waː/ qua oa
/uə/ quô ua in open syllables
/wəː/ quơ
/wəːj/ quơi n/a
/wə/ quâ
/wəj/ quây uây
/wəjk(ŋ)/ quêch uêch
/we/ quê
/wɛ/ que oe
/wi/ standard quy uy
/uj/ n/a ui
/wik(ŋ)/ quych uych
/wiə/ quyê uya in open syllables
/wiw/ n/a uyu
I've tried to fix this - please let me know if I've done the right thing. Thanks! Wyang (talk) 20:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Why is there a difference in pronunciation between quach (kwɐɪʔk̟̚) and oach (ʔwɐjʔk̟̚). For all I know the rhymes are pretty much identical, i.e if you remove q you'll get the same rhymes. Same thing for quanh and oanh.
  • Even though ai as in tai (long /aː/) and ay as in tay (short /a/) can become allophones edit:homophones in some Southern accents, I'm not really sure if the same goes for their pre-labialized counterparts. quai and oai don't really rhyme with quay and oay.
  • Like I said, ua represents /waː/ if preceded by q, and /uɜ/ if not. Therefore, qua perfectly rhymes with hoa, but not with vua.
  • should represent the pre-labialized /wəː/, not the diphthong /uɜ/ which is represented by <zero q>ua/uô. This is a rare rhyme, but it should not be confused with others. quơ and thuở don't rhyme with cua and thủa (although thủa is actually a variant pronunciation of thuở)
  • qui is an alternate (and non-standard but very common) spelling of quy. ui is pronounced /wi/ if followed by q and /uj/ if not. quỉ surely rhymes with quỷ, but not with củi. Bear in mind q always goes with u to represent /kw/ no matter what vowel letter follows it (edit: except for ô), and qui should not be treated as q+ui, but as qu+i.Fumiko Take (talk) 09:45, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, how about now? Wyang (talk) 10:17, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Much better, thanks. But there are some glottal stops missing in quach. Would you check it again?Fumiko Take (talk) 10:57, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, added. Wyang (talk) 11:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, me again. I just found that the initial consonant in quô in Saigonese pronunciation has been gone (/uɜ/?), which doesn't seem quite right. There's only one common word containing quô, quốc (check the entry); the template fails to generate the proper transcription:
As you can see, the Saigonese pronunciation here has become /uɜʔk̚˦ˀ˥/, which is not quite right.
I was just talking about Hanoian pronunciation. You might have noticed that Hanoian /kw/ is reduced to Saigonese /w/, therefore I'd like to know if /w/ simply represents a plain labialization, or also an additional velarization like the English /w/. Saigonese people actually prounced /w/ as in quăng, quậy with some level of velarization, which can be transcribed into /ɣw/.Fumiko Take (talk) 11:49, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi, I've changed Saigonese 'quô' to /wɜ/. The /w/ is meant to represent velarised labial /w/, and I'm not sure /ɣw/ would be a better way of representing it. I found this article a pretty useful read. Wyang (talk) 11:12, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the paper. I asked that because I had some doubt about whether the /w/ phoneme in qua /(ɣ?)waː/ have the same recognition as in loa /lwaː/, toa /twaː/, xoa /swaː/, etc.. If /w/ involves velarization, I'd say /w/ in qua is not likely to be recognized the same way as in loa, toa, xoa, etc., since the velarization in qua is very strong and notable, and that in loa, toa, xoa, etc. can hardly be heard. Are these different sounds simply treated as two allophones of the one phoneme /w/? I also have doubt about whether oa /waː/, hoa /(h?)waː/, /ɣwaː/ and qua /(ɣ?)waː/ are homophones in Souther dialects.Fumiko Take (talk) 07:34, 28 February 2015 (UTC)




   過了百貨公司便向右拐 / 过了百货公司便向右拐  ―  guò lebǎihuògōngsī biàn xiàngyòuguǎi   ―  Turn to the right after passing the department store.
   時間過得很快 / 时间过得很快  ―  shíjiān guò dé hěn kuài  ―  time flies quickly

i'dsay itsGUODE/esp!>GUOLEspace-templatfault? 07:09, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

gotit[butpl'vlukanyway:) 07:25, 20 February 2015 (UTC)[edit]


qishi,haoxiangwokanguode[zaitaiwan]shi1.na3bihuadeRADICAL2.youbian 7bihuadeTRADFORMhaoconfusin:~ 07:42, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

nimenyouzhege [zhenhuishi/suanbangzhuHANZISECTIONShuibiande genghaoyong..


yundong]我词典都没有,但在台湾报纸非常多用的》可以做条目? 06:08, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


How do I get the non-Mandarin readings to show up in this entry? I had to recreate it manually because of a problem in the character database. ---> Tooironic (talk) 08:27, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I had the same issue with this page too: 凶兆. ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:17, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

@Tooironic: Added Cantonese pronunciation for both. --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:47, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Many thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 20:30, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
I had the same issue with 抵制 as well... ---> Tooironic (talk) 21:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)


Hi Frank,

When you have a chance, could you fix the ru-pron module, please, to work with "ъ"? Pls let me know if you want to know more. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 17:41, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev: What is wrong with съёмка? --kc_kennylau (talk) 02:38, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
It should be [ˈsjɵmkə], see Module:ru-pron/testcases. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 18:51, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Anatoli, fixed now. Wyang (talk) 20:30, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


This entry shows up in Category:Pages with module errors from time to time due to script-execution time limits- I'm guessing it's close enough to the maximum that slowing the system down pushes it over the edge. It's not a serious problem (a null edit always clears it), but I thought I'd make you aware of it in the unlikely event you ever have nothing better to do. At the very least it's a good test case for module overhead. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:07, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, it hasn't misbehaved on my recent visits yet, but I'll keep an eye out for it. Wyang (talk) 07:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Chinese 菠薐 as part of Japanese 菠薐草[edit]

I was researching the etymology of 菠薐草#Japanese. This is clearly a compound of 菠薐 + , but past there, the derivation of 菠薐 is murky. The plant came via Sanskrit-speaking areas, making a Sanskrit derivation a possibility, as currently noted at 菠薐草#Japanese. However, I see that some JA- and ZH-language sources also state that 菠薐 was the name of a country or region, 菠薐国, as mentioned here and here. I note that an alternate ZH word for spinach, 波斯菜, uses 波斯 as basically a phonetic match for Persia. However, Nepal even in ancient times was apparently called “Nepal” (c.f. w:Nepal#Etymology), and I'm not aware of any placenames around there that sound at all like the palinga mentioned at w:zh:菠薐. Given the existence of Sanskrit पालङ्ग (pālaṅga, beet? spinach?), I'm leaning towards the view that the old Chinese term 菠薐国 was not actually the phonetic name of a place, but instead was simply “spinach country”.

Can you shed any more light on this? My Chinese reading comprehension is limited, so I'm pretty sure I'm missing lots.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:58, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for this interesting case. I think you are absolutely right that a Sanskrit origin is almost certain, although I found a few closely related terms meaning "Indian spinach" (Beta bengalensis) rather than "beet" (Beta vulgaris). I've created 菠薐. Cheers, Wyang (talk) 10:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the reply and entry creation. I wonder if you saw this article that talks some about the etymology? That post mentions a placename of पालक्क (pālakka) that apparently shows up in Sanskrit inscriptions, which seems to be verified by this dictionary entry sourced from Monier-Williams. However, I cannot find any indication of what or where this place might be, nor am I convinced that Sanskrit -lakka would be borrowed as Chinese -leng. The SA -langa → ZH -leng trajectory seems much more likely. Do you have any guidance on patterns in phonetic shifts for Sanskrit borrowings into Chinese? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:31, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • FWIW, I just had a look at 菠薐 and noticed your mention of Nepali. I did some digging for the JA entry at 菠薐草, and if w:Nepali_language#History_of_the_language is to be believed, there wasn't any Nepali language per se until relatively recently -- well after spinach was introduced to China. Reading through w:Nepal#History led me to guess that the vector for spinach in the geographic area of Nepal was probably the w:Licchavi (kingdom), and their written records were apparently in Sanskrit. I'd guess that the daily language was a prakrit of some sort, but probably not too far removed from Sanskrit. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:46, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The association of the plant with the country name was probably first suggested by Wei Xuan himself (see quote in 菠薐), who said "豈非頗稜國將來,而語訛為菠稜耶?" ("Isn't it because it [i.e. spinach] came from the country p’olang, that it got its name polang?"). Sun Yi (孫奕) of the Song Dynasty also said: "《藝苑雌黃》云……蔬品有頗陵者,昔人自頗陵國將其子來,因以為名,今俗乃從艸而為菠薐。" ("According to the book Yiyuan Cihuang: The vegetable p’olang, was introduced as seeds from the country p’olang, and hence named. Nowadays its name is written with the radical, as '菠薐'."). This page suggests that the country pālakka was probably in the region of modern-day Palakkad, in Kerala of Southern India. I think the actual etymology is from the Sanskrit plant name, and I've tweaked the wording in the etymology a little to avoid mentioning Nepali. Wyang (talk) 23:07, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Excellent detail, thank you! Given that the plant was native to Persia and not Southern India, the p'olang < Palakkad connection looks like an early example of a folk etymology. Given the number of JA (and apparently ZH) resources that reference this country name as a possible source of the word, do you think it bears mentioning in the etym section? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:43, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I've expanded it a bit - please review, thanks! Wyang (talk) 02:52, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Thank you again! I added a ref with the relevant quote from Laufer, please adjust as you see fit. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 08:38, 2 March 2015 (UTC)


I think we should create some categories for pages using it, like Category:English plurals. They may be Category:Chinese simplified forms and Category:Chinese variant forms.--GZWDer (talk) 13:12, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I agree, I've done the module changes and they can be created now. Wyang (talk) 23:55, 1 March 2015 (UTC)


Is there a way to get both the toneless syllable variant and the Taiwan variant to come up? Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:17, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

@Tooironic: Fixed. --kc_kennylau (talk) 08:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


Hi Frank, I tried to fix the problem with the homophones but it didn't seem to work. AFAIK, 僱主 is incorrect - 雇主 is both the trad and simp form. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:26, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

@Tooironic: You seriously? I have been using 僱主 all my life. --kc_kennylau (talk) 07:38, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
I've always used 雇主. I note that 僱主 is in none of the dictionaries I have at my disposal. ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:22, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
I've made 雇員 variant of 僱員 and 雇主 variant/simplified form of 僱主. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:47, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


This etymology doesn't look right to me. Any ideas? ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:11, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree, removed now. Wyang (talk) 07:14, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


Should we classify this as a toneless variant? According to moedict, even in Taiwan it's pronounced rènshi, so arguably no "variation" has taken place. (Unlike, for example, 反應 or 程度 which are always pronounced as fǎnyìng and chéngdù respectively, the 轻声 just happens to be a variant that some Northerners use.) ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:15, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Wyang (talk) 10:22, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

About POJ[edit]

I noticed that we list the Minnanhua for 全國 and 出國 as choân-kok and chhut-kok respectively, while moedict lists them as tsuân-kok and tshut-kok. Does moedict not use POJ, or are our romanisations here incorrect? ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:49, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Our POJ data (added by Frank) are correct and the entries use correct POJ and they generate correct IPA. You can also check against [1]. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:43, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
@Tooironic: Pe̍h-ōe-jī#Current_system has the list of initials, vowels and finals in standard Pe̍h-ōe-jī. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:09, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
The system used by is the Tâi-lô system, also generated by our template in the collapsed mode. Wyang (talk) 06:17, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I thought so too but it didn't seem to match 100% before or maybe I haven't checked well. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC)--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Gotcha, thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:29, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Quick question about [edit]

The listed definitions for are "exclude, expel, reject" and "usher". Is "usher" a correct definition and, if so, is it a noun or a verb? I tried searching for answers elsewhere to no avail. Bumm13 (talk) 06:32, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

It means "to usher, to guide (guests)" (= ). Wyang (talk) 11:15, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


I didn't want to clutter up your rfd with what may be a dumb question: on the line in the entry where it displays

  • Gwoyeu Romatzyh: kee gong jiunyonq

is the last letter supposed to be a Q? Chuck Entz (talk) 01:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Never mind, I didn't look closely enough at the Wikipedia article- yes, it was a dumb question. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:10, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Chengyu - again[edit]

I noticed now that when I create idiom entries they are automatically categorised as chengyu even if they are not, e.g. at 深更半夜. Can we fix this? ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:30, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

@Kc kennylau: (Kenny) wrote a function for the PoS conversion in {{zh-new}} which involves reverse matching of names to abbreviations; I'm not sure what the purpose is. This seems to be causing the forward matching error, as the function is not injective. Wyang (talk) 12:36, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
@Tooironic: Fixed. --kc_kennylau (talk) 13:45, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


Requires immediate attention. --WikiWinters (talk) 22:07, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Attended to by Anatoli. Wyang (talk) 04:57, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


Is the measure word of this or ? The MDBG dictionary defines 研究所 as "research institute / graduate studies / graduate school / CL: 個|个." --WikiWinters (talk) 00:14, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

There are hits for both on Baidu. I've made some changes now. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:31, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


Should we add the Category:Vietnamese terms derived from Old Chinese for words borrowed before Middle Chinese? ばかFumikotalk 02:47, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Good idea, although it might be difficult to discern sometimes. Wyang (talk) 04:59, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
How do you mean? ばかFumikotalk 10:08, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
It is sometimes not easy to tell whether a non-MC Sino-Vietnamese word was derived from Old Chinese or simply an irregular reading (due to nativisation or dialectal influence); words like sức, buồm and kim are easy to tell as MC and OC levels are drastically different, but words like xanh may not be as easy. Wyang (talk) 11:04, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't have a handful of documents written in languages that I can read, so I can't tell either. How about studies of Wang Li or Henri Maspero. I've heard that they did do some studies on Vietnamese words derived from Chinese. ばかFumikotalk 11:45, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Wang's work in 1948 is quite comprehensive and I'm happy to translate that. Not sure whether Maspero had publications on Sino-Vietnamese etymology. How about publications in Vietnamese? I once had a grey-covered old book on Vietnamese vocabulary (tu vung hoc tieng Viet I think it was called) which dealt with the different categories of Vietnamese words and Viet-Muong comparisons. Are there other Vietnamese etymological dictionaries (tu dien tu nguyen tieng Viet)? I vaguely remember seeing one before (published around 2007) online. Editted: I just found this - Từ điển nguồn gôc tiếng Việt; not sure if there is more work like this but this seems to be fantastic. Wyang (talk) 22:18, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
The best I've got so far is Nguyễn Văn Khang's Từ ngoại lai trong tiếng Việt, which focuses on words of non-native origins. It even has a list of Vietnamese terms called 古漢越語 (Old Sino-Vietnamese (?); Pre-Sino-Vietnamese), and 漢語越化 (Vietnamese-nativised Chinese terms), but the data was extracted from Wang Li's work, and also partly from Vương Lộc's. It also lists a handful of words that are considered to have been borrowed from some Southern Chinese dialects such as Cantonese, Teochow, etc. Nguyễn also noted that Wang's work was the most comprehensive so far (I wonder if that's still true). I read that Wang mentioned some of Maspero's opinions, and his judgment was somewhat influenced by Maspero's. Do you think Wang's work is reliable and we can use it as reference on Wiktionary?
I've desperately tried to look for a comprehensive etymological dictionary, but still got nothing useful. Most works are outdated and have never got reprinted, and now are being stored in some university libraries in Hà Nội and Sài Gòn. Linguistics is not my major and I'm studying at Dak Lak, which makes them even harder to reach. That Từ điển nguồn gôc tiếng Việt seems like BS: it's poorly organized, and we don't really need that many English and French glosses for a native word, although I appreciate the effort in looking at other related languages such as Thai or Khmer.
I've found an online dictionary that deals with Mon-Khmer languages, at [2]. I have used it to retrieve etymological data of native words. Sadly, I haven't found anything like that that deals with non-Sino-Vietnamese words of Chinese origins. ばかFumikotalk 03:42, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
The categories of "Old Sino-Vietnamese/Old-Chinese", "Vietnamese-nativised Sino-Vietnamese", "Sino-Vietnamese" seem to have been inherited straight from Wang Li's work, which was impressively comprehensive with influence from Maspero's publications. It's probably the most reliable of its kind that has been published. Thanks for the information on Vietnamese-language resources - pity that no etymological dictionary appears to have been written, but on the other hand this would be a perfect opportunity and challenge for us! I've used Sealang's Mon-Khmer etymological dictionary before and have a hard copy of that at hand; the only downside with it is that the Vietnamese cognates are oftentimes somewhat dubious. Wyang (talk) 06:11, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Well, there really are etymological works, but strictly on Sino-Vietnamese. It's a bloody shame that they don't publish those kinds of books anymore, maybe because they don't sell as well as stupid love novels for teenagers. By the way, where did you get that hard copy. I'd love to get it, too ^-^. Oh right, I think we're forgetting the subject. Should we add the category or should we not? Should we use data from Wang's studies? Or should we need more discussions with other members? ばかFumikotalk 10:57, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Hard copy of the study can be found here; be cautious though as admittedly it is quite a ripoff, and the website version has also incorporated a lot of other studies, such as that of Ferlus'. Yeah, let's create the category and populate it using Wang's studies, and it seems it has been faithfully translated into Vietnamese in the form of Nguyen's work (?). Not sure if there are others active who might be interested too. Wyang (talk) 21:24, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. ばかFumikotalk 02:16, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

A Heads-up[edit]

There are currently over 60 Korean entries in Category:Pages with module errors that seem to be from your edits to Module:ko-utilities earlier today.Chuck Entz (talk) 04:03, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Those entries have the wrong format of links - you can help fix them too! Please see the documentation page for {{ko-l}}. Wyang (talk) 05:00, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Maybe hanja should be allowed (suppressing translit and round brackets)? Also, the translit shouldn't be italicised, unlike {{m}} or {{term}}. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:07, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
OK... I've extended its usage slightly. Why is transliteration not italicised? I've always thought of it as a strange convention. It makes it hard to read and distinguish from definition. Wyang (talk) 05:43, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
it's just how {{l}} work, {{m}} can be used for italicisations and glosses use "". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:57, 23 March 2015 (UTC)


I noticed: Cantonese (Jyutping): gon3 wut6 ji4. Does Cantonese use erhuayin?? ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:50, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

The data is from Sheik's Cantonese dictionary, which includes many standard written Chinese terms (Mandarin), even if they are never used in vernacular Cantonese. I wonder too, if they're ever spoken. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:39, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Pls see this search. @kc kennylau:, could you comment on this? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:45, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Not colloquially, but literally. Wyang (talk) 10:57, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
We (at least in Hong Kong) do not say 幹活兒. However, when we read from a text written in Mandarin, gon3 wut6 ji4 is the pronunciation. --kc_kennylau (talk) 11:34, 23 March 2015 (UTC)


Why doesn't 一點兒 use Template:cmn-erhua form of, while 名兒, 名兒 and 命兒 all do? --WikiWinters (talk) 17:07, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

It should too. Wyang (talk) 22:02, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. --WikiWinters (talk) 22:26, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Taiwan pronunciation for [edit]

Hi Frank, I realised that we are missing the Taiwan pronunciation for (sì) as in 賜予, 賞賜, 天賜 etc. Can you add it please? ---> Tooironic (talk) 13:21, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Carl, it was added before. Just change the pinyin ci4 to 賜 and it should work. Wyang (talk) 03:00, 27 March 2015 (UTC)



No 'n'? --WikiWinters (talk) 17:23, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. --WikiWinters (talk) 22:07, 26 March 2015 (UTC)


Hi Frank,

Could you please fix the ja-pron module? The entry has [fúァìtò] and [fùァító]. Also @Eirikr: --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:16, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

No problem, done. Wyang (talk) 02:59, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


Hi Frank, trad/simp conversion didn't work on 醃牛肉. I'll try to fix it myself later (I've gotta go), if you're busy and if I remember how:). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:03, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

If you haven't figured this out yet, just add ['醃']='腌', to the start of Module:zh/data#ts and ['腌']='醃', to the start of Module:zh/data#st. I'll let you try this time... :) Wyang (talk) 21:01, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll fix it when I get to my desktop. :)--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:02, 28 March 2015 (UTC)