User talk:Wyang/Archive8

Vietnamese

Sorry for that. For reference I have checked both online Vietnamese dictionary (e.g. [1][2][3][4]) and Chinese sources (in this case, [5]) before creating entries, but errors still exists.--2001:DA8:201:3512:C1D3:26F2:1F6D:2E86 18:40, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Please use authoritative Vietnamese-language sources (such as Từ điển tiếng Việt (Viện Ngôn ngữ học)) and not rely on the often-unreliable links above. Can you create a user account please? I don't really know how to contact you sometimes, as your IP changes daily. I'm also interested to know your level of knowledge of the various languages. Wyang (talk) 18:47, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Vietnamese

Can I create Vietnamese entries in a sandbox page? e.g. Wiktionary:Requested entries (Vietnamese)/sâu sắc.--2001:DA8:201:3512:BCE6:D095:55F1:36DE 15:55, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

The requested entries page shouldn't really be used like that though. If you create a user account, you can list them under your userpage: User:.../sâu sắc. I will check and move them if I can. Wyang (talk) 15:59, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello, I have created a account and will put some entries there.--Zcreator (talk) 16:15, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Finally!!! Wyang (talk) 16:18, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Please check hầm bà lằng: [6] claims it is from Khmer hmblang but seems to similar to some Chinese words.--Zcreator (talk) 16:21, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Great word! Need to rest now though, I will check this and the others tomorrow. Wyang (talk) 16:30, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Category:Vietnamese Han characters

This category includes many multi-character entries. It is intended?--Zcreator (talk) 11:14, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Probably not intended, it is from {{vi-hantu}} in the headword line. Wyang (talk) 11:24, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

EWDC #3

Hi! Here are your 10 random missing English words for this month.

• overracking, proportionals, ferrelling, axised, herriments, efferes, gumped, dratchells, morrhua, alannahs

Equinox ◑ 04:50, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

榴莲

This page is not showing expected "which is in turn a variant of 榴槤". But I didn't find any problem in the entries' code. Could you please help troubleshooting? Dokurrat (talk) 14:46, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! It's now normal. Dokurrat (talk) 08:50, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

KO 검, JA 神?

C.f. this addition to the 검 (geom) entry. Curious if this is cromulent. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 09:44, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

@Eirikr I am away from my sources (and humanity...) at the moment, so can't double check. I will remember to check it once I return. HNY by the way! Wyang (talk) 12:59, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

良(よ)いお年(とし)をお迎(むか)えください！

Yoi o-toshi o o-mukae kudasai!

Happy New Year!

No worries on the wait. I hope you're having a great time wherever you are.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:16, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

西藏

The original etymology is wrong, but I don't know how it can be fixed.--Zcreator (talk) 11:22, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Looks like you've removed the incorrect part... :) Wyang (talk) 13:48, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

腺苷

Hi Frank. Got a pinyin question: should this entry be transcribed as xiàn'gān? Otherwise it might be misconstrued as xiàng + ān, no? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:28, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

@Tooironic: Hi Carl, there is no ambiguity, it's either "xiàng'ān" (=xiàng ān) or xiàngān (=xiàn gān), since this is consistent and that's how dictionaries use pinyin. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:32, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi Anatoli. Happy new year. So is the rule that the apostraphe is only placed when there is a diphthong? Then why write Xī'ān？ I'm still a bit confused. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:39, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

@Tooironic: Happy New Year to you too. In Xī'ān or Mò'ěrběn the 1st syllable ends in a vowel and the 2nd syllable starts with a vowel. Our implementation of pinyin is not based on but matches Pleco as far as apostrophes are concerned. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:08, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

All right, in the future I'll check Pleco when in doubt. Cheers. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:10, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, happy new year both!! The apostrophe is used before null initials. Wyang (talk) 03:18, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Frank and Happy New Year to you. Yes, before null initials, if they the syllable number > 1. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:27, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

哼, 噷

Hi. If you are willing to, would like to fix the issues there? (哼 has a pinyin that cannot work properly; 噷 has a broken Cantonese IPA) Thank you! Dokurrat (talk) 15:03, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

@Dokurrat  Done, both fixed. Wyang (talk) 03:42, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

C'est bien ! Merci ! Dokurrat (talk) 09:23, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

嘴

Where did you get the sense "food"? Dokurrat (talk) 20:23, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

@Dokurrat Please see 《现代汉语规范词典》, definition #3: （名）指吃的东西。零嘴｜忌嘴｜贪嘴. Wyang (talk) 09:12, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. LOL. 😂 Dokurrat (talk) 10:03, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/14.231.84.232

Is this user's edit valid?--Zcreator (talk) 14:56, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

It looks okay to me. Wyang (talk) 15:03, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Moving pages

I have moved 叁鍵 and 歪七竪八. How to deal with the redirect? Also, I can not move 忠淸北道 and 忠淸南道 as the target page already exists.--Zcreator (talk) 19:08, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

@Zcreator: All these seem to be valid traditional forms. I think they can be kept as t2. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:00, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

@Zcreator Why move 忠淸北道 and 忠淸南道 anyway? Dokurrat (talk) 05:07, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

@Zcreator ... Wyang (talk) 09:24, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Is current treatment appropriate?--Zcreator (talk) 09:54, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

I think it is appropriate; just need to add 忠淸.. to their 忠清.. pages. Wyang (talk) 09:56, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

By the way, would it be possible/feasible/desirable for {{zh-forms}} to automatically suggest t2 from a list of 地區差異 characters like 為/爲, 眾/衆? Traditional printed variants like 清/淸 could also be added. --Dine2016 (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

It is possible and feasible. My concern is that it would give the template too much power (freedom). Perhaps we should add these manually and track ones without these variants? Thoughts? @Justinrleung, Dokurrat, Zcreator, Tooironic, Atitarev Wyang (talk) 15:32, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Module:zh-see

I have added a function to automatically extract glosses from pages. However the code is duplicated and adapted from part of Module:zh-forms. Ideally we need to move the functions to a common module. Thought?--Zcreator (talk) 15:01, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

@Zcreator Very glad to see you are experimenting with Lua. :) I think you have great potential. It looks good on the few pages I saw; if there are no major changes needed, you are right that they are preferably merged. (I need to work on some Vietnamese entries before I rest today, but I will keep this in mind.) Wyang (talk) 15:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Just a heads-up (血的教训) with Lua, always expect module errors.... Remember to check Cat:E. Wyang (talk) 15:06, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

By the way, 乾坤一擲 currectly displays incorrectly.--Zcreator (talk) 15:08, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

 Done Fixed. Wyang (talk) 15:11, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi

Hello, could you do me a favour and hide my last edit to the Beer Parlour (which I have already), it's only going to continue the debate and probably I will be the one insulted in the inevitable reply. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 16:43, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

@Kaixinguo~enwiktionary Hidden now. Wyang (talk) 16:46, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

@Wyang: Thanks, I'm kind of wishing I had edited Chinese instead now. It's so big though, that's why I didn't. I always saw this coming in the Persian/Arabic area, but I always thought things would blow up of something like the 'Allah'/'God' translation issue or something similar, not something like 'naqus'/'semantron'. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 16:57, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

@Kaixinguo~enwiktionary: Conflict is about the editors, not the topics. Palaestrator is a conflict-prone editor, and you may find that avoiding interaction with him (or getting someone uninvolved like me to engage in your stead) is a simple way to escape conflict. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:55, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Wyang (talk) 07:54, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

穀子, 黃米

I don't know where is the proper place to place the reference.--Zcreator (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

@Zcreator Though it looks slightly strange, I think it is okay for now. Wyang (talk) 07:32, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Chinese definition previews

Happy to see the changes to the trad and variant entries that allow for preview of Chinese definitions. Would it be possible to have a similar set up for the pinyin entries? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:14, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

@Tooironic User:Zcreator is the author for the preview function. :) Zcreator ― interested in, or thoughts on this? There may be many mishits in multiple-pronunciation entries, especially in monosyllables. Wyang (talk) 11:56, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

True, but I think 9 times out of 10 it works quite well. One little bug I found was entries like 口笔译. This should be fixed eventually. ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:08, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

STEDT

Hey Frank, when I was trying to search up an etymology on STEDT yesterday, I found out that they've restricted access to the site from the public and require a login. Where should we look for Sino-Tibetan etymologies now? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:01, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

That is concerning. Wyang may have a solution, but if not, send me an email and I'll see if I can work something out. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 01:38, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung It indeed makes it very inconvenient. Would you like to shoot Meta an email, Justin, or would you like me to do so? Let me know. Wyang (talk) 07:50, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

I've sent him an email. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:34, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Please keep me updated about any progress you guys have. Wyang (talk) 09:46, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: [7] This should do for now. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 19:47, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

@AryamanA: Nice! Thanks so much! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:51, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

@AryamanA What a legend. Wyang (talk) 07:02, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

腺 entry structure

Hello Frank --

Curious if the Glyph origin section might want to go somewhere else. It looks very out of place in the JA section -- this section isn't present in other entries, and the content is almost word-for-word identical to the Etymology, making it look wholly superfluous. Thoughts? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:07, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr In this case the time points of Glyph origin and Etymology coincide. IMO the current Glyph origin/Etymology looks more like Glyph origin than Etymology, and does not really explain the derivation of the pronunciation sen from 泉 (i.e. why "spring" for "gland"?). I think those two can be merged in this case. It would probably make it more succinct, but it would be more complete if the pronunciation can be explained in a bit more detail. Wyang (talk) 08:41, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I've had a go at reworking the JA etym, to better explain the composition of the character for its semantics and reading. I feel like I captured the essential points, but I'm not all that happy with the presentation. If you have the time and interest, I'd appreciate it if you could have a look and a poke. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:20, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr Looks good. I only reworded the etymology to remove a bit of duplication. :) Wyang (talk) 14:00, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

MC pronunciation

Why there's no asterisk before the IPA? Dokurrat (talk) 08:14, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

@Dokurrat It's largely uncontroversial; please compare Middle Chinese and Old Chinese on Wikipedia. Wyang (talk) 12:48, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I've been wanting to ask this as well. Isn't MC still a reconstruction and wouldn't it require an asterisk? The IPA isn't actually attested. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:41, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

True, though traditionally it seems Middle Chinese pronunciations are written without an asterisk, while the Old Chinese ones are written with an asterisk, e.g. in Baxter (1992) A Handbook of Old Chinese Phonology, Pulleyblank (2011) Lexicon of Reconstructed Pronunciation: in Early Middle Chinese, Late Middle Chinese, and Early Mandarin, and Baxter–Sagart (2014). Wyang (talk) 15:09, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Interesting... I guess we should follow the general convention then. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:42, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Korean 옷

Curious if the final "s" is evident historically, or if the "s" is an innovation and the obsolete 옫 (ot) spelling is the original (or at least older) form.

If the final "s" is not innovative, is there any chance that KO (or MKO?) /os/ might be related to OJP 衣 (so, “clothing”)? These seem tantalizingly close. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:04, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr The 15th-century 훈민정음해례 has the present form, but the form of 오티 (oti) for this word is found in the Pyeong'an dialect, and Seo (2000) is of the opinion that 옫 (ot) is the older and original form (actually attested?). On the other hand, both Seo (2000) and Starostin compare it with 襲(おすひ) (osuhi, “a kind of upper garment”). Wyang (talk) 13:41, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting. If cognate with 襲ひ (osuhi), it would also be ultimately cognate with 押す (osu, “to push”) -- osuhi appears to be a shift from classical verb osofu, modern 襲う (osou, “to attack; to press down; to put one layer of clothing on top of another”), all likely deriving from 押す (osu, “to push”) + ふ (fu, auxiliary verb ending indicating repetition or ongoing state).

I see that modern KO for "to push" is 밀다 (milda). Are there any other terms of related meanings that might have phonology similar to os? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:32, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr Not that I can think of for the moment. Searching dictionaries and Starling did not yield similar-shaped words in Korean either; almost all of the native words for “to cover; to push; to press” begin with a consonant. (would be easier if I had finished the cursory project zh:User:Wjcd/朝鮮語詞族). Curiously, Martin S. E. (1987), The Japanese Language Through Time, pp. 743 comments that PJ *ǝ́sǝ́p- (“to cover”) > OJ os(w)op- > MJ osof- is homonymous with ‘attack’ and ‘suppress’, and is “obviously a secondary confusion with derivatives of *ǝ́s- ‘push, press’”. Uncertain what to make of this, though. Wyang (talk) 08:10, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

I think Martin was confused by the English glosses. The semantics for “push, press” aren't that far from “be pushing, be pressing (down)” → “push (militarily), cover (with something that presses down)”. Even in English, “push” can be used to mean “attack”, and “press” can be used to describe a heavy covering. There's also plenty of morphophonemic precedent for [VERB ROOT] in the 未然形 (mizenkei, “incomplete form”) + OJP-derived auxiliary pu → later fu → modern u. Daijirin lists this exact derivation, as a sound shift from the expected osafu. Shogakukan lists this as well, in addition to mentioning that this might alternatively be derived as oshi- (押し) + ōu (覆う), though personally I think that's far too much of a stretch. Additionally, the -a ↔ -o shift is seen in many old words, both nouns and verbs, where -a seems to imply “outward, appearance” and -o implies “inward, inherent quality”.

Anyway, it's looking like KO os and OJP so may be an accidental resemblance. Thank you for digging into this. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:01, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Wyang (talk) 17:07, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

zh-div

Is it appropriate to use zh-div in adjective or adverb? For example 斷崖. Also is 斷崖式 SOP?--Zcreator (talk) 14:00, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

@Zcreator I don't really think it is appropriate - 斷崖 in 斷崖式 ("cliff-like") is a noun, and adverbial 斷崖 is also a shortened form of 斷崖式. I think 斷崖式 is SoP in Chinese. Wyang (talk) 14:27, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

What is the better way to handle this?--Zcreator (talk) 14:29, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

@Zcreator I would probably only list the noun sense and list 斷崖式 ("cliff-like; sharply; rapidly"), 斷崖式下跌 ("to decrease sharply") and 斷崖式降級 ("'free-fall' demotion (of an official)") as examples, but others may disagree. Wyang (talk) 14:34, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

俄羅斯

This term's Mandarin Pinyin is in lower case although detail is displayed correctly. Please fix it.--Zcreator (talk) 12:22, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

@Zcreator  Done. Wyang (talk) 16:01, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

白刀子進，紅刀子出

Citation in this page is displayed incorrectly.--Zcreator (talk) 17:46, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

 Done. Wyang (talk) 17:49, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

把子

Was wondering if you could create this entry when you have the time? Seems important as it has multiple readings and meanings. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:29, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

@Tooironic I've had a go, please feel free to improve on it. Wyang (talk) 03:38, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Wow, amazing work! Many thanks! ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:43, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Incomplete Korean / Vietnamese entries

Could you look at these: 亪, 就職, 不足, kekeke, 限定, 蠻, 襖, 後門, 經營 DTLHS (talk) 02:54, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

 Done. Wyang (talk) 03:17, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

EWDC #4

Hi! Here are your 10 random missing English words for this month.

• climating, magdalens, macahubas, megadonty, hempie, schriks, hazard rate, boshvark, menad, pensils

Equinox ◑ 23:30, 1 February 2018 (UTC)