User talk:Dine2016

Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Jump to navigation Jump to search



Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

  • Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy documenting how Wiktionary pages should be formatted. All entries should conform to this standard. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing page for a similar word, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
  • Our Criteria for inclusion (CFI) define exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary, though it may be a bit technical and longwinded. The most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
  • If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
  • The FAQ aims to answer most of your remaining questions, and there are several help pages that you can browse for more information.
  • A glossary of our technical jargon, and some hints for dealing with the more common communication issues.
  • If you have anything to ask about or suggest, we have several discussion rooms. Feel free to ask any other editors in person if you have any problems or question, by posting a message on their talk page.

You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage. This shows which languages you know, so other editors know which languages you'll be working on, and what they can ask you for help with.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wiktionarian! If you have any questions, bring them to the Wiktionary:Information desk, or ask me on my talk page. If you do so, please sign your posts with four tildes: ~~~~ which automatically produces your username and the current date and time.

Again, welcome! — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Share your experience and feedback as a Wikimedian in this global survey[edit]

  1. ^ This survey is primarily meant to get feedback on the Wikimedia Foundation's current work, not long-term strategy.
  2. ^ Legal stuff: No purchase necessary. Must be the age of majority to participate. Sponsored by the Wikimedia Foundation located at 149 New Montgomery, San Francisco, CA, USA, 94105. Ends January 31, 2017. Void where prohibited. Click here for contest rules.

Your feedback matters: Final reminder to take the global Wikimedia survey[edit]

(Sorry to write in Engilsh)


Hello Dine2016 --

Minor point, but when manually entering romaji for Japanese terms, please make sure you're using the correct spelling. By way of example, 文法 is spelled in romaji as bunpō, not bunhō.

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:57, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

@Eirikr: sorry, I misremembered it. By the way, is it 日本語教育文法 or 日本語教育のための文法? And do the four forms 辞書形・~た・~ない・~なかった have names in 学校文法? --Dine2016 (talk) 02:58, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Sorry, didn't see the ping...
It's 日本語教育文法. See, for instance, the 日本語教育文法 subsection of the 日本語教育 article on the JA WP. More commonly, it's just w:ja:学校文法, and sometimes you might also see 国文法 (koku bunpō, literally national grammar).
 This section on 活用形 lays out the six names used in Japanese school grammar:
  • 未然形 (mizenkei, irrealis or incomplete form, mostly used with ない, ません, etc. to form the negative)
  • 連用形 (ren'yōkei, continuative or stem form, the stem used in the basic dictionary and -masu forms; also used adverbially and when forming compound verbs)
  • 終止形 (shūshikei, terminal form, used to end a sentence)
  • 連体形 (rentaikei, attributive form, used to modify a noun)
  • 仮定形 (kateikei, hypothetical form, mostly used with ば to form hypotheticals and conditionals)
  • 命令形 (meireikei, imperative form, used in abrupt commands)
Note that the 終止形 (shūshikei) and the 連体形 (rentaikei) have become the same thing in modern Japanese. Note too that the 未然形 (mizenkei) and the 仮定形 (kateikei) are the same thing for some verbs, such as 付ける (tsukeru, to stick one thing onto another): consider the identical stem 付け (tsuke) in the negative conjugation 付けない (tsukenai, to not stick something onto something else) and the hypothetical conjugation 付けば (tsukeba, if one were to stick something onto something else).
These all describe the form of the verb stem, however. From my own learning (not via the Japanese educational system, but with years spent living in Japan), 辞書形 (jishokei, dictionary or plain form) is the only name I've ever heard for this form. ~た I've only heard as 過去形 (kakokei, past tense), ~ない as 否定形 (hiteikei, negative form), and ~なかった as either 否定過去形 (hitei no kakokei, past tense of the negative) or 過去否定形 (hitei no kakokei, negative of the past tense).
Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:57, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
@Eirikr: Thank you. I borrowed a grammar book from the public library in the hope of revamping Appendix:Japanese verbs with it, but my lack of ability to write in English was a hindrance. --Dine2016 (talk) 15:54, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
@Eirikr By the way, are causative and passive forms like 聴かせる and 言われる utilitizing the "mizen-ness" of the 未然形? --Dine2016 (talk) 15:58, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Huh, ping failed again... saw this by walking through my Watchlist.
By one analysis, yes: if we view the [[VERB mizenkei stem] as equivalent to "the action of the verb is incomplete", then the (su) causative suffix -- cognate with する (suru) and precursor to せる (seru) -- indicates the agent actively making the verb action happen. Meanwhile, the (ru) passive / spontaneous suffix -- ultimately deriving from Old Japanese auxiliary (yu) and precursor to れる (reru) -- indicates the spontaneous completion of the action, or the action being carried through to completion by some external force.
Though I haven't read Bjarke Frellesvig's works myself yet, I have had others explain to me that Frellesvig proposes a different diachronic analysis wherein the mizenkei itself is an innovation, and that it may have arisen from fusion with auxiliaries or suffixes that started with -a-. I believe Alexander Vovin also touches on a similar derivational mechanic for some verb forms. I'm not sold on that idea, but I'm interested to know more, and I expect I'll get around to reading some of Frellesvig's writings at some point.
HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:41, 4 May 2018 (UTC)


Hi Dine2016. It seems you forgot to create the entry 案內狀. Could you please create it when you get a chance? Thanks. Wyang (talk) 03:43, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

@Wyang: sorry, I probably intended to create the Hanja term for 안내장. Not sure if 案內狀 exists in any Chinese language. --Dine2016 (talk) 08:06, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
No worries. Thanks! Wyang (talk) 08:09, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

{{Han ref}}[edit]

This data comes from here, BTW. Also, it might be easier to copy from the Thai Wiktionary, which already has pages for all(?) CJK characters and uses the same template :p —suzukaze (tc) 03:59, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

@suzukaze-c: Thanks for the information. Would be great if a bot could fill the red links in the radical index, though. BTW, Unihan's coverage of dictionary indices is sometimes incomplete -- such as for 康熙字典·補遺 and rare kanjis in 大漢和辞典, which I add the page numbers when convenient. --Dine2016 (talk) 15:19, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
@suzukaze-c Do you have any idea where the IDSs from the Thai Wiktionary come from? Their IDSs are sometimes different from the CHISE project ones, for example 𠂹 (Thai Wikt: ⿱丿⿲仌丨仌,⿻亻𠈌; CHISE: ⿸⿹亻仌仌) --Dine2016 (talk) 15:49, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
I thought they were from CHISE too. @Octahedron80? —suzukaze (tc) 19:29, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
[1] from Andrew West who does also add many Han characters to Unicode. And I put them with my bot once long ago. (I should run another round to update.)--Octahedron80 (talk) 04:04, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, I had forgotten about his IDS file. I wonder how big the differences are between the CHISE and BabelStone files. —suzukaze (tc) 04:40, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c If you are interested, I also have this: [2] They already filed my idea. --Octahedron80 (talk) 04:29, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Nice. 👍 —suzukaze (tc) 04:40, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Dai Kanwa number[edit]

I'm not too sure about the numbers you put in for Dai Kanwa. Are you sure that you are using the same edition as the Unihan database (Tokyo: Taishuukan Shoten, 1986)? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Yeah, I'm using the 修訂版 published in 1984–1986 (and I didn't refer to the Kanji Database Project). --Dine2016 (talk) 01:48, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Alright, thanks! Keep up the work! — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 01:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Translingual definition[edit]

Please remove translingual definitions once you have improved the Chinese one.--Zcreator alt (talk) 14:32, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Volitional ending よう at よう#Etymology_3[edit]

Your edit prompted me to have a go at things.  :) I expanded what was there. I'm a bit concerned that it's too information-dense, but then again there's a lot to pack in... ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:03, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr Hi, isn't 上一段活用 -i-u instead of ? --Dine2016 (talk) 16:24, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
You'd think so, from a surface analysis. Per the KDJ entry for this よう volitional / suppositional auxiliary:


I also find this puzzling, as kanji readings clearly demonstrated a pattern of -ip (MZH) → -ipu (OJP) → -ifu・-iu (MJ) → -yū (JA), such as at . However, the existence of that consonant between the two original vowel sounds may well have changed how the vowels developed, perhaps accounting for why one combination of i + u resulted in /juː/ and the other in /joː/. Alternatively, it might have been that speakers preferred /joː/ for some reason, and the -e + -u-yō pattern overrode what would otherwise have been -i + -u.
I'm not aware of any easily-accessed corpus of late-Muromachi works that could be used to double check... Looking into it just now, I see that the University of Virginia Library's Japanese Text Initiative lists several works that might fit this time frame, so that's one place to start. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:51, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Labeling for copula-related terms[edit]

Re: diff, I think I'd prefer copular rather than copulative -- the latter inexorably calls to mind copulation, more strongly than copula, which is distracting and irrelevant.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:08, 16 July 2018 (UTC)