User talk:Dine2016

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Hello Dine2016 --

Minor point, but when manually entering romaji for Japanese terms, please make sure you're using the correct spelling. By way of example, 文法 is spelled in romaji as bunpō, not bunhō.

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:57, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

@Eirikr: sorry, I misremembered it. By the way, is it 日本語教育文法 or 日本語教育のための文法? And do the four forms 辞書形・~た・~ない・~なかった have names in 学校文法? --Dine2016 (talk) 02:58, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Sorry, didn't see the ping...
It's 日本語教育文法. See, for instance, the 日本語教育文法 subsection of the 日本語教育 article on the JA WP. More commonly, it's just w:ja:学校文法, and sometimes you might also see 国文法 (koku bunpō, literally national grammar).
 This section on 活用形 lays out the six names used in Japanese school grammar:
  • 未然形 (mizenkei, irrealis or incomplete form, mostly used with ない, ません, etc. to form the negative)
  • 連用形 (ren'yōkei, continuative or stem form, the stem used in the basic dictionary and -masu forms; also used adverbially and when forming compound verbs)
  • 終止形 (shūshikei, terminal form, used to end a sentence)
  • 連体形 (rentaikei, attributive form, used to modify a noun)
  • 仮定形 (kateikei, hypothetical form, mostly used with ば to form hypotheticals and conditionals)
  • 命令形 (meireikei, imperative form, used in abrupt commands)
Note that the 終止形 (shūshikei) and the 連体形 (rentaikei) have become the same thing in modern Japanese. Note too that the 未然形 (mizenkei) and the 仮定形 (kateikei) are the same thing for some verbs, such as 付ける (tsukeru, to stick one thing onto another): consider the identical stem 付け (tsuke) in the negative conjugation 付けない (tsukenai, to not stick something onto something else) and the hypothetical conjugation 付けば (tsukeba, if one were to stick something onto something else).
These all describe the form of the verb stem, however. From my own learning (not via the Japanese educational system, but with years spent living in Japan), 辞書形 (jishokei, dictionary or plain form) is the only name I've ever heard for this form. ~た I've only heard as 過去形 (kakokei, past tense), ~ない as 否定形 (hiteikei, negative form), and ~なかった as either 否定過去形 (hitei no kakokei, past tense of the negative) or 過去否定形 (hitei no kakokei, negative of the past tense).
Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:57, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
@Eirikr: Thank you. I borrowed a grammar book from the public library in the hope of revamping Appendix:Japanese verbs with it, but my lack of ability to write in English was a hindrance. --Dine2016 (talk) 15:54, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
@Eirikr By the way, are causative and passive forms like 聴かせる and 言われる utilitizing the "mizen-ness" of the 未然形? --Dine2016 (talk) 15:58, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Huh, ping failed again... saw this by walking through my Watchlist.
By one analysis, yes: if we view the [[VERB mizenkei stem] as equivalent to "the action of the verb is incomplete", then the (su) causative suffix -- cognate with する (suru) and precursor to せる (seru) -- indicates the agent actively making the verb action happen. Meanwhile, the (ru) passive / spontaneous suffix -- ultimately deriving from Old Japanese auxiliary (yu) and precursor to れる (reru) -- indicates the spontaneous completion of the action, or the action being carried through to completion by some external force.
Though I haven't read Bjarke Frellesvig's works myself yet, I have had others explain to me that Frellesvig proposes a different diachronic analysis wherein the mizenkei itself is an innovation, and that it may have arisen from fusion with auxiliaries or suffixes that started with -a-. I believe Alexander Vovin also touches on a similar derivational mechanic for some verb forms. I'm not sold on that idea, but I'm interested to know more, and I expect I'll get around to reading some of Frellesvig's writings at some point.
HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:41, 4 May 2018 (UTC)


Hi Dine2016. It seems you forgot to create the entry 案內狀. Could you please create it when you get a chance? Thanks. Wyang (talk) 03:43, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

@Wyang: sorry, I probably intended to create the Hanja term for 안내장. Not sure if 案內狀 exists in any Chinese language. --Dine2016 (talk) 08:06, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
No worries. Thanks! Wyang (talk) 08:09, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

{{Han ref}}[edit]

This data comes from here, BTW. Also, it might be easier to copy from the Thai Wiktionary, which already has pages for all(?) CJK characters and uses the same template :p —suzukaze (tc) 03:59, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

@suzukaze-c: Thanks for the information. Would be great if a bot could fill the red links in the radical index, though. BTW, Unihan's coverage of dictionary indices is sometimes incomplete -- such as for 康熙字典·補遺 and rare kanjis in 大漢和辞典, which I add the page numbers when convenient. --Dine2016 (talk) 15:19, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
@suzukaze-c Do you have any idea where the IDSs from the Thai Wiktionary come from? Their IDSs are sometimes different from the CHISE project ones, for example 𠂹 (Thai Wikt: ⿱丿⿲仌丨仌,⿻亻𠈌; CHISE: ⿸⿹亻仌仌) --Dine2016 (talk) 15:49, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
I thought they were from CHISE too. @Octahedron80? —suzukaze (tc) 19:29, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
[1] from Andrew West who does also add many Han characters to Unicode. And I put them with my bot once long ago. (I should run another round to update.)--Octahedron80 (talk) 04:04, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, I had forgotten about his IDS file. I wonder how big the differences are between the CHISE and BabelStone files. —suzukaze (tc) 04:40, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c If you are interested, I also have this: [2] They already filed my idea. --Octahedron80 (talk) 04:29, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Nice. 👍 —suzukaze (tc) 04:40, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Dai Kanwa number[edit]

I'm not too sure about the numbers you put in for Dai Kanwa. Are you sure that you are using the same edition as the Unihan database (Tokyo: Taishuukan Shoten, 1986)? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Yeah, I'm using the 修訂版 published in 1984–1986 (and I didn't refer to the Kanji Database Project). --Dine2016 (talk) 01:48, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Alright, thanks! Keep up the work! — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 01:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Translingual definition[edit]

Please remove translingual definitions once you have improved the Chinese one.--Zcreator alt (talk) 14:32, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Volitional ending よう at よう#Etymology_3[edit]

Your edit prompted me to have a go at things. :) I expanded what was there. I'm a bit concerned that it's too information-dense, but then again there's a lot to pack in... ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:03, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr Hi, isn't 上一段活用 -i-u instead of ? --Dine2016 (talk) 16:24, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
You'd think so, from a surface analysis. Per the KDJ entry for this よう volitional / suppositional auxiliary:


I also find this puzzling, as kanji readings clearly demonstrated a pattern of -ip (MZH) → -ipu (OJP) → -ifu・-iu (MJ) → -yū (JA), such as at . However, the existence of that consonant between the two original vowel sounds may well have changed how the vowels developed, perhaps accounting for why one combination of i + u resulted in /juː/ and the other in /joː/. Alternatively, it might have been that speakers preferred /joː/ for some reason, and the -e + -u-yō pattern overrode what would otherwise have been -i + -u.
I'm not aware of any easily-accessed corpus of late-Muromachi works that could be used to double check... Looking into it just now, I see that the University of Virginia Library's Japanese Text Initiative lists several works that might fit this time frame, so that's one place to start. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:51, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Labeling for copula-related terms[edit]

Re: diff, I think I'd prefer copular rather than copulative -- the latter inexorably calls to mind copulation, more strongly than copula, which is distracting and irrelevant. :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:08, 16 July 2018 (UTC)


Good stuff, thank you!

Incidentally, I've been giving it a try, and found a potential hiccup at Japanese . Since the page and the referred 牡蠣 page are both kanji, I'd expect the template to say "alternative spelling", but it says "kanji spelling" instead. From the template's own code, it looks like it's supposed to say "alternative"... Could you take a look when you have time?

TIA, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:25, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


Thank you for adding this template, it's very useful! — Kiutsushou (talk) 13:02, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

(Sorry for the delay.) @Kiutsushou: You're welcome! Actually, the template follows the traditional description of Japanese verb conjugation in which each verb has six basic forms (mizenkei, ren'yōkei, etc.) and additioanl forms are formed by adding auxiliary verbs. Western textbooks seem to use a different set of conjugating rules, for example first teaching the masu-form and then back-forming the masu-stem or what the Japanese call ren'yōkei. --Dine2016 (talk) 08:00, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

user page[edit]

  1. I think your English is great.
  2. I think your templates have been great.
  3. I suspect part of the problem for Japanese is that everything is "good enough"/"works", it would be a massive change, and we can't decide on details, which is why discussions don't last :/ (well, these are partly the reasons why I haven't participated a lot; maybe I am just projecting on other people...)

Suzukaze-c 00:20, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Module Errors With Module:ja-see[edit]

There are several entries in CAT:E due to an invisible module error in {{ja-see}}. These entries don't show any error messages, but the error category goes away if you preview with {{ja-see}} commented out.

The only time I've seen this kind of thing before was when a template fed the output of a module into a parser function, which ignored it. That's apparently not the case here, but I think that somewhere up the chain of module calls a module is passing the error text to the module that called it, but the calling module isn't doing anything with it. I'm not very good with Lua, so I can't tell where the error is or provide much help. Even if I was, I suspect this is going to be real tough to debug. Good luck! Chuck Entz (talk) 01:51, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz: Ah, thanks. I spotted two problem. The first was that Japanese headword templates such as {{ja-noun}} needed to know the kana spelling of the entry it described. Thus “{{ja-noun}}” worked fine on かりそめ, but when copying it to 仮初め, it should be manually supplied with the kana spelling like “{{ja-noun|かりそめ}}”, otherwise it would complain. I was fully aware of this, but screwed up the code. I've fixed it now. The second problem was that my customarily-written wikicode parser mistakenly parsed {{lang|ja|[[w:ja:土井晩翠|土井晩翠]]譯『[[w:ja:オデュッセイア|オヂュッセーア]]』第二歌}} as {{lang|ja|[[w:ja:土井晩翠|土井晩翠]]譯『[[w:ja:オデュッセイア|オヂュッセーア]]』第二歌}}. I'll rewrite the template parser when I have time. --Dine2016 (talk) 08:24, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

diff @ Module:ja-kanjitab[edit]

Category:Japanese terms read with kun'yomi and other similar categories are empty now. (;´∀`) —Suzukaze-c 06:26, 20 January 2019 (UTC)