Wiktionary:Tea room

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Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Tea room

WT:TR redirects here. For Translation requests, see Wiktionary:Translation requests. For guidelines on translations, see Wiktionary:Translations
Tea house party in Japan (not tea ceremony)-J. M. W. Silver.jpg

A place to ask for help on finding quotations, etymologies, or other information about particular words. The Tea room is named to accompany the Beer parlour.

For questions about the technical operation of Wiktionary use the Beer parlour. For questions about specific content, you're in the right place.

Tea room archives edit

Please do not edit section titles as this breaks links on talk pages and in other discussion fora.

Oldest tagged RFTs


November 2017


The 5th meaning of 跑車 'race car' reads "car race"; is it o.k.? --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:43, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Why is it not ok? Wyang (talk) 02:19, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang:The 1st meaning is race car, a type of car, and the fifth a car race, a type of race. --Backinstadiums (talk) 08:41, 4 November 2017 (UTC)


Should we create an entry for victim mentality, and add a pejorative sense to victim ("someone who is prone to feelings of helplessness")? --Barytonesis (talk) 15:06, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I think so, though adding the new sense to victim might just make victim mentality a sum of its parts. —Globins (talk) 06:52, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Contributions of User:Jawitkien[edit]

Could somebody (who has any idea about Lojban) give this user some help with formatting etc.? See e.g. bacrynandu. Equinox 19:30, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

what did I do that you don't like? Jawitkien (talk) 19:41, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
@Jawitkien: hello, and welcome. Please look at this edit, and pay attention to what I've changed. --Barytonesis (talk) 19:45, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind attention. I am mostly regularizing entries. I rarely get to add a new one. Jawitkien (talk) 19:55, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

晶晶: "Lua error: not enough memory"[edit]

Just bumped into 晶晶 and noticed the "Derived terms" section only reads "Lua error: not enough memory". What should we do about it? What is the problem? MGorrone (talk) 20:43, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

There was nothing actually there so I've removed it. DTLHS (talk) 20:45, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Apparently some of them are here


The page XBoxes should exist. Here is 3 books that have the word "XBoxes": [1][2][3]. -- 22:09, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree, and I think most others will too. —Globins (talk) 07:00, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


Is there no such word in English? If yes, would permutation be a synonym? --Barytonesis (talk) 22:22, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

It seems to me that there are supportable senses in music and law. DTLHS (talk) 22:24, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

day and night AND night and day[edit]

In what way are these adjectives?? Equinox 02:49, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

No way that justifies an adjective PoS, IMO. DCDuring (talk) 12:38, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

to the face[edit]

I am a bit sceptical: "he ate a whole pizza to the face"? (no Google hits except for our entry). I've put "slang" on it because it has to be, but where is this used, and is it real? Equinox 05:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Why not just RfV it? DCDuring (talk) 12:38, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
I'm familiar with take something to the face and the related take something to the head, but these mean something slightly different (i.e. consume the something). These would definitely be considered as slang Leasnam (talk) 01:59, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
This has a definite second-language/calque feel to it- @Wikitiki89 might have picked it up from local usage among first- or second-generation immigrant communities. As for rfv: that combination of words gets millions of Google Books hits- I'm not really sure how you would filter out all the false positives. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:15, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
See WT:RFVE#to the face. DCDuring (talk) 10:51, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Chuck, you're right. This is obviously an accidental creation of a non-English-speaker. The person originally posing the question would have done both us and themself a service by asking the simple question "What is the first language of the person who wrote this?" I'm sure the (probably amusing) etymology would be immediately clear to anyone speaking the original language.
My guess would be that in the original language there was a phrase involving the glyph or morpheme "face," but rough and ready. Sight unseen I would be willing to bet a small amount at reasonable odds on "He stuck a pizza down his pie-hole." And/or "He gotta whole damn pizza into his gob," "He stuffed a whole furshlugginer pizza down 'is gullet," etc.
For the moment I think it would be incorrect to call this "slang." It's just not an English phrase. It's a goof. An editor should have caught it before it got into print. It's mistranslation of something or other, done by an incompetent speaker of English. Competent begins down the road a little, where you learn how to say "I don't know."
David Lloyd-Jones (talk) 07:30, 4 December 2017 (UTC)


Hello, I let a message here about the word conver but since it is recommended to let a message here as well, so here it is. Pamputt (talk) 12:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Isn't it a typo for cover? --Barytonesis (talk) 13:00, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Who knows? I have no idea. Yeah, you're right. DonnanZ (talk) 17:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


"A pipe connecting the drain to the gutter." I assume this means a roof gutter downpipe or downspout, but what about other forms of drainpipe, e.g. from a bath or kitchen sink, or are they always known as waste pipes? DonnanZ (talk) 17:31, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

  • Here in the UK, a "drainpipe" is a pipe from a roof gutter down the side of a building. I have never the word used to mean a waste pipe from a bath, sink or similar. I couldn't say about other English-speaking parts of the world. Mihia (talk) 23:01, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
    Yes, as far as I understand the word, it's specific to draining water away from a building, not from an appliance etc. Ƿidsiþ 13:55, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

pop socket[edit]

The term "pop socket" (variations: "popsocket", "PopSocket", "Pop Socket", etc.) appears in Google searches of years 2013 through 2017. Etymologically, the term may have originated from the name of a company that produces cell phone accessory objects call "pop sockets" (typically circular solid objects that have adhesive to stick to a cell phone to make the cell phone stand up at an angle). According to Wiktionay policy entries need to have existed for a year or more: else, their page is deleted. This term has existed for around 5 years. However, It may not be notable enough for a page. --Spunionztastic (talk) 17:54, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

We're a descriptive dictionary, so usage is the only source of notability here. In this case, pretty much all the English usage in durably-archived sources found by Google Books and Google Groups seems to be the combination of various things known by the acronym POP and the programming or electronic-hardware senses of socket, with some odds and ends of random occurrence of "pop"/"POP" and "socket(s)" next to each other. There are a couple of German references to the cellphone product and a spam-type commercial message posted to a couple of non-Usenet Google Groups, but those don't count. Some people have had luck finding things in newspapers that are durably archived, but this doesn't look that promising. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:12, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

father tongue[edit]

could an administrator create father tongue please. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:A48E:853C:8987:9F21 22:09, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Place for the request: WT:Requested entries (English)#F. - 06:35, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

love the sinner, hate the sin[edit]

I created the page "love the sinner, hate the sin" but need help on improvements. I felt that citations are unnecessary unless I'm told otherwise; the phrase has been often used. --George Ho (talk) 22:39, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

It seems SoP (ie, sum-of-parts, not an idiom, therefore not includable) as a verb. But it is often found as a kind of proverb, which would allow for inclusion IMO. DCDuring (talk) 02:35, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
I hope you don't mind, but I completely reworded it. I don't think your definition was completely neutral-POV (e.g. "what they consider a sin"), and it didn't capture the sense of the word as a Christian would use it. My definition may be slightly wordy, so you are welcome to improve upon it, but be wary of implying anything that isn't actually part of the meaning of the phrase as it's used. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 05:38, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Etymology : CARTAGENA - Province of Spain - name used in Spain and most former colonies of Spain.[edit]

As Cartagena is being traduced, most people go for the name "New Carthago", as eg. New York, New Jersey, etc., meaning a copy of a city in the colonisator's country. The history of Cartagena - Spain might be quite similar as being the "New" edition of an existing name in the country of origin. The name "Cartagena" does refer to Carthago as the main base of Cartagenian identity. The term "gena" though does not refer to what we call "new"." "Gena" refers to "gender" with all its origines and derivatives as "genus", "generous", "gens" (French),"gentes" Spanish),"general","Genesis" (Meaning Birth). "Gender" was used to indicate "sex" in <15th century England. "Gender" means "blood related", can be a man, a woman, a son, a daughter, a nephew, etc. ... and sometimes a whole Nation was identified by the same "Gender". As "Gender" can be translated into "Family", the name "Cartagena does not mean "New Carthago" but "from Carthagian gender - Carthagian family", as Romans called "Cartagena". All peoples around the Mediterranean some 2200 years ago identified themselve as member of the gender Julii as Julius Ceasar, or the gender Gracchi as Tiberius Grachus, or the gender Skipii as Skipio Africanus, etc. ... Your position in Roman Society was all dependant of the fame or infame your family collected during the past history. Member of the Julii family, the Grachi family, the Skipii famili, and ergo, the Cartagenian familie which gave its name to "CARTAGENA" instead of "NEW CARTHAGO"

The author = Patrick Vermeulen - Belgium, thanks you for your interest.


AFAIK, not "chiefly US". What do you think? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:17, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Definitely not, IMO. Wyang (talk) 02:18, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Rare in UK in my experience. Restaurants etc. just call them drinks. Equinox 17:41, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
It's common in Canada as well, so so far, it'd be chiefly Canada, US, Australia. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 23:22, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks everyone, I've made some changes. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:57, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
It certainly is used in the UK, but it's more formal term than "drink". Collins ([[4]]) makes no distinction in its the British and American definitions. For that reason, I don't believe it needs any regional label at all for this sense, and so I have removed it. — Paul G (talk) 06:51, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
It's definitely used differently in the US. I mean, the word obviously exists in the UK, but it's not something your waitress is likely to say to you. How we codify that in usage labels, I don't know. Ƿidsiþ 13:54, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
I can't remember the last time I heard anyone say it out loud. Equinox 00:30, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
In the noted example "Hey man, there's a beverage here," the word is inflected to indicate importance. -Booksnarky (talk) 04:56, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
It's also more formal in Canada, and I don't think I've ever heard a waiter ask someone if they wanted a beverage. It's more common to hear "What would you like to drink?" or something similar. It's very common to see "beverages" on a menu, however. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 16:49, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
I think that, in US ordinary speech at least, "Would you like a drink?", "I need a drink.", etc, usually refer to an alcoholic beverage, usually one stronger than beer or wine. ("Would you like something to drink?" does not have the same limitation.) I think beverage is intended to be a hypernym that includes alcoholic and non-alcoholic liquids. "Liquor and other beverages" doesn't get very many hits at Google books, many fewer than "juice", "soda", "soft drink", "beer", "milk", "tea", and "cocktail". Beverage strikes me as a word used mostly in print. When a friend used to ask "Would you like a refreshing beverage?" it seemed he intended to sound like a server at some hospitality establishment, not a normal human. DCDuring (talk) 18:34, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

dressed up/done up like a dog's dinner[edit]

We already have dog's dinner, but I don't think it covers adequately the meaning of the above expression. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:01, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Pon Yup[edit]

I doubt it refers to the modern district. The name 番禺 was used for different jurisdictions in its history. The modern designation as a district is a relatively new one (since 2000). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:54, 6 November 2017 (UTC)


The first sense is just a list of synonyms. A better definition please? DTLHS (talk) 04:29, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

  • I've had a go at it. Feel free to improve. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:22, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Re mortar[edit]

I came to mortar because I wanted to find out why the "mixture of lime" and "indirect fire weapon" are both called "mortar". This page completely fails to do so, only providing the etymology for the context-less word itself.

While I can guess why the weapon got to be called "mortar", what has this to do with building bricks and grinding ingredients?

In short, what is the etymology for the concept of "mixture of lime"? CapnZapp (talk) 13:34, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Does clockwise need 2 definitions?[edit]

'Left' and 'right' are notoriously difficult to define, as first you have to define the observer and what they observe. The wiktionary definitions both invoke the compass to get it across. (I think this is why some people have difficulty remembering which is which... for some people it's intrinsic to the observer, for others it's just an arbitrary abstract concept).

Anyway, I think definition 1 of clockwise is ok, you're allowed to use the concepts of 'right', 'left' and 'clock', and rest on the metaphor like the whole word does, without using words like 'axis' or 'perpendicular'. I'll still rewrite it tho cos it seems a bit clunky.

However, I've read definition 2 five times:

2. (of movement) Positioned as such when facing the side of a circular structure or configuration, objects moving within the structure approach from the right-hand side, and depart toward the left-hand side.

I feel like there is at the very least a missing "that" which should be inserted for the hard of thinking (i.e. me). But... what does meaning 2 mean and how is it different from the first definition? I imagined the notional structure as being outside the observer, not vice versa (which as far as I can tell reverses the definition). And how can something positioned in reference to a circular structure be itself 'clockwise' or 'counter-/anticlockwise'? Because the definition is talking about motion after all.

I feel like I'm missing something really basic :( Moogsi (talk) 01:02, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, weird. "(of movement) Positioned..." sounds like a bad start. Equinox 01:04, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Yeah "positioned of movement" should be the first clue. I wondered if there was some special meaning... Moogsi (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

I have edited clockwise adv. Please criticize Moogsi (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

I removed references to movement because I don't think this is essentially motional but rather spatial e.g. "The hours of a sundial are arranged anticlockwise" Moogsi (talk) 19:02, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Latin: respondeor[edit]

The author of entry for verb "respondeo" claims that The passive voice is limited to third-person singular forms. However there exists in wiktionary an entry "respondeor". This contradicts what is said of "respondeo". Pierrecmichaud (talk) 04:54, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I've removed the Latin entry whole, it was created by a bot. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 04:05, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
There are other spurious forms: respondebar, respondebor, etc. These might be attested, but it's definitely non-classical/proscribed. --Barytonesis (talk) 15:49, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
@Barytonesis, I do know that respondebor would have been in the later years of Old Latin, as the original lemma for the second-person singular imperfect indicative would have been respondebos. Respondebar, on the other hand, doesn't add up, because the rhotacism would not have implied for the supposed form it would be in. 15:57, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying. --Barytonesis (talk) 23:58, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

RFV: marks on Italian obliquum pronouns[edit]

Is this dissymmetry true (at least could be in PT/GL/ES)?:

  • meco: Prep. archaic, literary DEF (1)
  • teco: Prep. archaic, literary DEF (1)
  • seco: Prep. archaic. literary DEF (2)
  • nosco: Pron. HEAD poetic, archaic (4 by extension)
  • vosco: Adv. HEAD poetic, archaic (1)

Notice the different placement of the marks (before DEF inition; or TCX after HEAD) with no relation to the number of senses (1-4) whatsoever. And the diff POS. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:21, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

@Sobreira, it is very likely that this was caused by the rather unique evolving of the Latin language and the Italic branch of languages in general. Although Classical Latin was mostly derived from Proto-Italic (as well as languages like Venetian, Oscan, and Umbrian), a large part of it came from Ancient Greek and Proto-Hellenistic roots.

The Latin language, over time, shifted from Old Latin to Classical Latin, and then Classical Latin to Vulgar Latin, further cementing itself in its Hellenistic roots. Italian, however, largely went unchanged for a very long time, as Latin went from Vulgar Latin to Late Latin. However, when the rise of Roman Catholicism came about, and the language of liturgy remained Latin despite being centered in an Italian speaking capital city, the Ecclesiastical Latin that formed as a result was highly irregular and had inconsistent pronunciation, as it was frequently split between the harder sounds Latin had become known for and the softer sounds that were signature of Italic languages.

As such, a fair amount of Latin slowly entered the Italian language, but the issue that created was clear: Italian is a very specifically stressed (and often very regular) language, whereas Latin was at least moderately (or fully, depending on era) unstressed and was highly irregular due to a very tumultuous history. Latin also did not have accents on any letters, which Italian had in droves. In short, the reason for these differences relates to the awkward cohesion of these two oft-intertwined and tangled tongues. 15:47, 23 November 2017 (UTC)


Definition makes no sense at all. How can all races be superior? Superior to what, if not other races? What does "anti-racist with anti-Semitism" mean? Equinox 15:41, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps "superior" should be changed to "equal". I think the end part refers to this belief as being non-racist, and especially having no anti-semitic affiliations Leasnam (talk) 16:45, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
More importantly, there doesn't seem to be any usage for it. All I can find is references to w:William Reich and one or two references to German imperialism. There's one quote from the Clinton administration in the US, apparently referring to w:Robert Reich. A quick look through the hits for "Reichist" show pretty much only German, not English. It looks to me like the folks at Wikipedia couldn't figure this out, so they transwikied it here instead of just deleting it. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:03, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Oh, right, I assumed the reich was the third reich or something, not a surname. Thanks. Equinox 23:21, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
It is, in the case of the references to German imperialism- but that wouldn't be capitalized in English, and I don't think they're the same as the challenged sense. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:50, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

make the hunting dog chase the rabbit[edit]

Hey all. Do we have a word in English meaning to make the dog chase the rabbit, in hunting? Spanish's got one - engalgar - WF


How does "prepared" mean "willing"? I don't understand this definition. DTLHS (talk) 01:34, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

The definition is correct. In most cases 'prepared' means 'willing'. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:32, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
Maybe we could add a literal sense: "factually/pragmatically prepared" (good to go, ready), as opposed to "mentally/emotionally prepared" (willing). I've added two synonyms, does that help? Also, compare readiness, which means both "preparedness" and "willingness". --Barytonesis (talk) 15:45, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
I also think we need a definition for prepared as in "I am more prepared for this test than the last one." and "I am better prepared to take this test.". DCDuring (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

fair's fair[edit]

No entry for this that I can see. Oxford online has "used to request just treatment or assert that a situation is just". DonnanZ (talk) 15:32, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

  • No response, entry created. DonnanZ (talk) 15:36, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

What does 주일 mean?[edit]

I have a Korean Mass timetable distinguishing 주일미사, 토요미사, 평일미사. Wiktionary lets me translate them as Weekday Mass, Saturday Mass, Weekday Mass. Err, what? Surely one of those Weekday Masses is actually a Sunday Mass? Google suggests 주일 means weekend/week/weekday/holiday/Sunday, and translates 주일미사 to Sunday mass. Moreover, the etymology is 週日, which means Sunday basically everywhere, and can mean Weekday in Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore. So what does 주일 mean? Sunday or Weekday? Or maybe both are possible but it's Sunday in 주일미사? MGorrone (talk) 16:43, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

I have no answer to your question, but I do wonder why Mass is 밋사 (mitsa) in the first term and 미사 (misa) in the other two. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:40, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
@Angr: because on a Romaja keyboard that is Missa and Misa and, well, typo :). Accidental double s. Fixed now. MGorrone (talk) 21:47, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
  • @MGorrone: FWIW, 週日 (shūjitsu) in Japanese means wither “week days → number of days in a week: seven days”, or “weekday”, generally meaning every day except Saturday and Sunday. Also, Google Translate (and, so far as I've seen, any MT platform at all) is often unreliably inaccurate. I do note that our Korean 주일 (ju-il) entry displays a notable lack of Sunday-ness.
That said, the 주일 entry on Naver shows two derivations -- one from 週日, meaning “weekday; week”, and one from 主日, meaning “Lord's day → Sunday”. So apparently in Korean, 주일 (ju-il) can confusingly mean either “Sunday” or “weekday (excluding Sunday)”. In the context of your text, I suspect 주일 is meant with the 主日 derivation. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:16, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@MGorrone Eirikr pretty much got it correct, though I'm not aware of it meaning “weekday”. I've expanded the entry. Please take a look. Wyang (talk) 07:21, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang: I recall reading that hangul spellings don't indicate long vowels, even though they apparently exist as a phonemic element in Korean terms. By way of comparison, JA does have a length distinction between these two terms, as 週日 (shūjitsu) with a long /uː/, and 主日 (shujitsu) with a short /u/. On the 주일 (ju-il) page, should there be any difference in pronunciation for the 週日 and 主日 derivations? Or is there no vowel-length distinction between these two in Korean?
Curious, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:43, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
@Eirikr This is a funny one, because Korean merges 週日 and 主日 and makes them completely homophonous (length included), while Japanese keeps the pronunciations apart, even though Japanese on average merges more Sino-xenic readings than Korean. I remember this table from a few years back that illustrated this general tendency quite vividly.
With these two words:
Character Middle Chinese Mandarin Cantonese Sino-Japanese
Sino-Korean Sino-Vietnamese
/꜀t͡ɕɨu/ invalid IPA characters (꜀) /ʈ͡ʂou˥˥/ /t͡sau˥˥/ /siu/ > /sjuː/ /t͡ɕu/ /cu˧˧/
/꜂t͡ɕɨo/ invalid IPA characters (꜂) /ʈ͡ʂu˨˩˦/ /t͡ɕy˧˥/ /sju/ /t͡ɕu/ /cu˧˩/
The Japanese long/short vowel difference reflects the different rhymes in MC, whereas a difference in vowel length in Korean (although there is none here) is usually the consequence of different tones in MC. Wyang (talk) 10:38, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Dutch: weggeweest[edit]

The inflected forms "weggeweeste" en "weggeweests" simply do not exist, anymore than "geweeste" exists. The latter is always the strong "gewezen" and means "former", ex-"

Jcwf (talk) 00:30, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Okay. It sounds as though all you had to do was to remove the table, which I've now done. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:34, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

"The dick" instead of the fuck: how common?[edit]

I heard this in a few Youtube videos by The Grand Poobear (a streamer) and perhaps one by ryukahr (another streamer), and I was wondering if it's just him (or them two) or it's more widespread, and if we could possibly find attestation for this. I only remember one Poobear quotation: «What the dick enemy was that?!». Urban Dictionary seems to support that it's not just two people (I assume only two people wouldn't create an entry with that many sections?). Other sources? MGorrone (talk) 14:08, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Even if more people use this, my guess is that it's too new of a phrase for there to be any attestations. —Globins (talk) 06:49, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Want, Ignorance[edit]

Defined as "a personification of want" and "a personification of ignorance". Can you not do this with any abstract concept by giving it a capital? I'm reminded of an old ad for breakfast cereal, "Hunger strikes!", where Hunger was a little dancing monster that had to be locked up till lunchtime. Equinox 19:35, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't see why these have their own entries. As far as I know, there's no widely agreed-upon personification of either of these concepts like the personifications of death or time. —Globins (talk) 06:47, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Yeah I'm not sure about these. You can do this with any abstract concept, and it was a common literary device, in classical antiquity and the renaissance particularly, to do so. So I'm sure you could find some citations for both, but there is no extra information in the definition other than 'personification of X'. The only other concept I have a strong image for is Envy, and that's only because of Shakespeare's 'green-eyed monster'. All others I can think of are borrowed from antiquity and have definite forms (Justice, Victory, etc.) I think these definitions can be removed. Moogsi (talk) 17:50, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


The etymology reads "Clipping of clitoris". I feel it's a rather unfortunate choice of words... --Barytonesis (talk) 20:32, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

clipping is the technical term; see our third definition. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:13, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: I'm aware of that; I was just underlining the fact that "clipping of clitoris" is dangerously close to "clipping of clitoris". I've replaced "clipping" with "apocope". --Barytonesis (talk) 23:57, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@Barytonesis: But it isn't apocope. Apocope is the deletion of the final vowel (plus any consonants that may follow it). The apocope of clitoris would be *clitor. It may sound unfortunate in this circumstance, but it is a clipping, like it or not. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:15, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
@Angr: Oh, I see. I thought apocopes and aphaereses were subtypes of clippings. --Barytonesis (talk) 13:24, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Well they are, but those terms are more specific than clipping, and since clitoris removes more than the word-final V(C) sequence, it's not apocope. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:40, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
The wording is a little unfortunate, maybe "short form of" would be better. DonnanZ (talk) 23:42, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
I assumed it was a simple abbreviation. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:11, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
It is, kind of, but "abbreviation" implies a form like clit. or clit’ whereas "clipping", although a bit jargony, doesn't. Ƿidsiþ 13:51, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

on the phone[edit]

This was deleted as it is unidiomatic in the sense of "talking via a telephone", but there is an older sense of being connected to the telephone system by having a telephone in one's house. This dates back to the time when many people did not have phones at home, and so people wanting to keep in touch would ask each other "Are you on the phone?"

This sense seems idiomatic to me. Thoughts? — Paul G (talk) 06:45, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

All the citations I found on Google Books for on the phone before 1929 were of the unidiomatic sense. I didn't try News. DCDuring (talk) 14:43, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Same is true of e.g. "on the Internet" ("they live out in the woods and aren't on the Internet yet" vs. "he's been on the Internet all night"). Equinox 16:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
And you can also say that a building etc. is "on" mains power. I think it's a normal sense of "on" and if we don't have it covered by "on" then we should. Equinox 16:24, 13 November 2017 (UTC)


Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification/English.

There's no way this suffix is unproductive. —Globins (talk) 06:55, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

  • Keep – widespread use. Just search Google Books for "termination", "deletion", or "justification". Concerns about the label should be raised elsewhere, maybe at the tea room. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:08, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    What will looking for "termination", "deletion" or "justification" in Google Books prove? --Barytonesis (talk) 11:24, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    That the suffix exists. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:54, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    I know it exists, I just think the label "unproductive" is a mislabeling. —Globins (talk) 14:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    Accordingly, I've moved this discussion to the tea room. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:08, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Isn't this just an "alternative form of" -ation? SemperBlotto (talk) 11:37, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    Etymologically, it's the other way around: Latin -atio is a metanalysis of -tio when appended to first conjugation verbs. I don't know how it's felt in English, though. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:01, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    I'd consider it an alternative form in English. -tion vs -ation just depends on whichever one works with the word ending. —Globins (talk) 14:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    @Globins: to go back to your original question: is it truly productive? It might feel that way synchronically, but diachronically the only true suffixation I see is gumption; all the rest are borrowings from Latin or French or whatever. --Trousse à queues (talk) 17:53, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
    How about discombobulation? I think it might be best to remove the unproductive label and add a Usage Notes section that says that it's a variant of -ation that's only used when the word being suffixed already ends in -ate. —Globins (talk) 19:54, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
  • To answer the question of whether this suffix per se is productive, I would say no. I can think of some ways it is counterproductive (e.g. the back-formed noun sense of invite replacing invitation - although this is also an instance of initial-stress-derived nouns being very much productive in English). I do think -ify and so -ification are productive, so that may cause some confustion. Moogsi (talk) 18:14, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


Reading this article about written laughter, I'm not sure about the meaning of “realtalk” in this part:

Take hahaha, which we’ll call basic laughter. It’s actually anything but basic, with the ability to shorten (haha), [...], or replace with an “e” (hehe) — though, realtalk, The New Yorker may have called hehehe a “younger person’s e-laugh,” but ask any actual young person today and his or her response is likely to be “ew.”

Does it simply mean “seriously”, as proposed in the 4th definition on Urban Dictionary? (realtalk - To be serious about something, Being serious about a conversation and/or topic.) Or are there more nuances in it?

Thanks - Cos (talk) 10:00, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Uh... was my question at the wrong place? badly asked? uninteresting? or nobody knows? I thought I took the effort of asking it the best way that I could, but I'd be happy to learn if I should have done it differently; or maybe I just had bad luck. 😕 (I mean, all the questions around mine seem to have gotten at least a reaction...) - Cos (talk) 12:12, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
I didn't answer because I don't know. Sorry if you felt ignored! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:32, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
@Cos, as far as my searching found, that article and the Urban dictionary reference are the only two attestations of the term "realtalk" that I could find. Given that there is not even a Wiktionary page, and the lack of a third attestation present, I struggle to see how this is an issue pertinent to Wiktionary itself. The problem is that the article itself is rather unclear as to its adherence to attested forms of words. 15:27, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Plural of tinda[edit]

What's the plural of tinda (the squash)? Tindas is ok? Fructibus (talk) 12:35, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

tindas is attested. DTLHS (talk) 17:40, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Seems right to me (I know my way around Indian English). It's also uncountable. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:02, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
@Aryamanarora Do you mean uncountable, or that "tinda" can also be a plural? ("I have many tinda"). DTLHS (talk) 17:20, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@DTLHS: The first. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 18:16, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Someone knowing Telugu and wikisaurus[edit]

Thesaurus:పండు in Category:Thesaurus:Food and drink ? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 10:48, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Sobreira: I don't know any Telugu, but what's wrong with it? It's just a list of fruits in the hyponyms section. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:00, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
We should really categorise by language if we're going to create foreign thesaurus entries (which we shouldn't, imo). It's bound to get messy otherwise. --Barytonesis (talk) 22:03, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
I hackily made CAT:Hindi Wikisaurus a while back. I don't see any reason not to make foreign language thesauri, we already use {{syn}} and {{ant}} etc. for FL entries. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:06, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed that, that's a first step. I'm hesitant about the naming scheme: should it be
The second one doesn't make much sense so we can probably scrape that one. And I know there are opposants to language code. See also Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2017/August § Disambiguate Wikisaurus (thesaurus) entries by language. --Barytonesis (talk) 22:19, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
That was actually my point, Telugu in English.
(I have moved three pages back where they were before, including Thesaurus:coglione. Their being moved is not necessary to illustrate alternative locations; let's avoid any moves that create more mess in the actual thesaurus. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:00, 15 November 2017 (UTC))
Re: "there are opposants to language code": Sure, and some oppose full names; see Wiktionary:Votes/2017-07/Rename categories. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:12, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@User:Sobreira: What are you trying to achieve? Do you want to create new thesaurus entries and have difficulty figuring out how? Or do you just want to remove Thesaurus:పండు from Category:Thesaurus:Food and drink? --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:02, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
As for a change of format of names of thesaurus entries, that really is not a topic for Tea room. --Dan Polansky (talk)
@Dan Polansky, no offense intended, but my pretensions are not the matter. I mean, there are some entries in existence and use nor coherent neither stablished and by doing both would solve (re)naming, subcategorising and creating. If you think the change should be treated somewhere else, please and of course, tell me where. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 10:06, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
@Sobreira: You'll probably be interested in this. --Barytonesis (talk) 10:11, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
The naming of non-English Thesaurus entries has so far been fairly consistent with Thesaurus:పండు, that is, use the language's own headword. Recently, some people who had shown almost no interest in contributing content to the Thesaurus thought they would be good in managing the Thesaurus and making structural changes to it, and they created a couple of non-English entries not consistent with previous practice.
The venue for discussing structural changes is WT:Beer parlour. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:04, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
"some people who had shown almost no interest in contributing content to the Thesaurus thought they would be good in managing the Thesaurus and making structural changes to it": those people... *sigh*. --Barytonesis (talk) 11:37, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Anyway, I have removed the category from Thesaurus:పండు so the category only shows English thesaurus items. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:20, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Quick question re: pronunciation of reactionary[edit]

Entry in question: reactionary. Currently our pronunciation reads /ɹɪˈækʃən(ə)ɹi/, but I'm pretty sure I've heard the pronunciation /ɹɪˈækʃəˌnɛɹi/ (or something along those lines) before, or at least I've personally been reading it that way all this time. Now while I tend to have a reasonably good feel for the language I'm no native speaker, so I'm wondering if any native English speakers can help clear this up? Are there multiple pronunciations? — Kleio (t · c) 17:07, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, there are. As with many words ending in -ary, there is a British pronunciation in /(ə)ɹi/ and an American pronunciation in /ˌɛɹi/. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:37, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
I see, thank you. Thought I was just imagining things. — Kleio (t · c) 17:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

子, "master" sense[edit]

What is the origin of the "(great) master" sense for ? Out of curiosity. --POKéTalker (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Poketalker Probably via “child; offspring” > “person; man; woman” > honorific title for people. It being used as a respectful title was already attested in the oracle bone script. The royal family of the Shang dynasty had the ancestral name 子, which may be related to the word being extended for this use. Wyang (talk) 11:58, 15 November 2017 (UTC)


Why should we analyze this as a suffix and not just genesis? DTLHS (talk) 00:40, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Not listed as a suffix in Oxford Online, although -meister is, surprisingly enough. This is possibly a candidate for RFD. DonnanZ (talk) 10:39, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Maybe because it is treated as the noun counterpart of -genic. Extremely common in medicine though; can be attached to any common pathway endpoint or disease entity and still be considered proper: asthmogenesis, carcinomogenesis, pheomelanogenesis, glucocorticosteroidogenesis, depressogenesis, fibrillinogenesis, glycerologenesis, atherothrombogenesis, melanomagenesis, etc. are all attested. Wyang (talk) 11:30, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
But they seem to mean the genesis of something. Usually the first part of a compound is derived from another word. DonnanZ (talk) 15:44, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
It's in the OED. Ƿidsiþ 15:55, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@Widsith: Can you give us the description in the OED? Concrete proof is obviously needed in the entry. DonnanZ (talk) 16:09, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
"Forming nouns with the sense ‘origin or development (of the thing or a kind specified by the first element)’" Ƿidsiþ 16:15, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Great. I'm not sure how to add a ref for the OED, I'm not "up to speed" on that one. DonnanZ (talk) 16:25, 15 November 2017 (UTC)


The past is gnōh by B&T, but it is gnōg at Old Engli.sh. Don't know which it is... Anglish4699 (talk) 03:08, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Probably both. Word-final g and h are more or less in free variation in Old English. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:19, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, however only gnōh is attested for the singular. I have updated the conjugation arguments. Leasnam (talk) 13:54, 17 November 2017 (UTC)


What does it mean? Collins says "awkward and time-consuming", fitting with "faff about", but the two examples I found at Citations:faffy seem maybe more like "silly". The English Dialect Dictionary has "gusty, apt to blow about" which is probably a separate, older sense, possibly citable (EDD has one cite of "varry faffy"). - -sche (discuss) 03:19, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

  • I would agree with Collins, but to be honest the meaning strikes me as mostly contextual. That is, if someone was struggling to fill in an information form or something, and said "This is so faffy," it would make perfect sense, but seeing the word in isolation looks pretty weird. Ƿidsiþ 15:55, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Same. fiddly is a synonym. Equinox 21:45, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you; I've tried to make an entry. I heard it being used of a hot dog, which seemed weird to me—and since it was being said to the owner of the restaurant, unexpectedly rude, which is why I wondered what the word meant. But I guess the speaker thought the restaurant's way of preparing hot dogs was too complicated/fancy. (In fairness, it kinda was.) - -sche (discuss) 07:17, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Personally, I'm shocked that Equinox or WF haven't made an entry for this word before! I've heard it loads. Anyway, I don't consider it slang or rare, so removed them tags --Spreaderofwords (talk) 19:18, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Look at noun sense 1 of faff (involved process with little perceived benefit). 'Faff about/around' is equivalent to "mess around" or "muck about" in that you don't produce anything. You can extend this to 'faffy' from both related senses. Also agree that this is current in BrE (in the north at least, maybe all over) Moogsi (talk) 23:16, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
    Yes but I think the more normal way to say this in England would be "This is a bit of a faff", rather than "This is a bit faffy". Ƿidsiþ 10:03, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Nelkle/Nelklein etymology[edit]

So, I recently noticed that the page for Nelklein, the German word for cloves, does not, in fact, have a Wiktionary page. It is related to Nelke, and should be present as a related word. However, the main focus of my query here is why there is no mention of Näglein in the etymology section for the Nelke or the would-be Nelklein page(s). Nelklein is the direct descendent of Näglein, an archaic form of the word for cloves. Näglein is attested in the liedtext of Brahm's Lullaby and Merck's 1884 Warenlexikon, so I think it should be at least mentioned in the page for Nelke. 15:56, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

@ It's spelled Nelke, plural Nelken. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 12:47, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Duden has no entry for Nelklein, only Nelke. Looking at the etymology, though, it seems to have originated as a diminutive, so I woud guess it's possible that Nelklein exists as a variant that used -lein instead of -chen and avoided the assimilation/contraction. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:06, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz:It is very likely that Nelklein is a diminutive variant, and whilst Duden does not have an entry for Nelklein, it DOES have an entry for Näglein, which appears to be descended itself from the Middle High German word Negellīn. 18:35, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

emergent evolution[edit]

Definition unclear: where is the notion of "evolution" in that? And what type of evolution are we talking about anyway? Biological evolution? (hint: yes). Besides, a sense should be readded to emergent, since "evolution" is by no means the only word to which "emergent" can be applied in that sense. Cf. "emergent property". --2A02:2788:A4:F44:94A2:2D8F:AC26:6C64 16:14, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree. I have added a sense to emergent and will send it to RFD. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:52, 17 November 2017 (UTC)


Will you please consider refining the definition for votator to: votator: [Proper Adjective] - a brand name (trademark) for a machine that cools and kneads liquid margarine etc., preparatory to packaging

Thank you very much for your attention and consideration.

No. There is no such thing as a "Proper Adjective" and the word isn't even an adjective. Furthermore there is ample evidence of genericization over the last 30 years. DTLHS (talk) 23:04, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
proper adjective "An adjective, typically capitalized, derived from a proper noun." per Oxford (US) online. Similar definitions can be found in other dictionaries and in language teaching materials. Examples given in other sources are adjectives like American (< America). It is not a very useful classification for us. It seems to be self-evident, at least visually, whether an adjective is a proper one and there are no implications of its being one. I suppose it might have value for persons without sight so that they knew to capitalize the first letter in writing. DCDuring (talk) 01:16, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

be in someone's debt[edit]

Does that deserve an entry? --Barytonesis (talk) 00:05, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

MWOnline thinks in someone's debt at OneLook Dictionary Search is entryworthy. We didn't, but now do have in someone's debt. DCDuring (talk) 01:01, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
in someone's debt should probably be created because it could be construed as meaning the opposite if you're not familiar with the phrase. —Globins (talk) 03:54, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks to DCDuring for creating the entry. --Barytonesis (talk) 11:54, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Not with be at least. Equinox 18:51, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Not a girl???[edit]

So I was watching the Angry Video Game Nerd movie. The Nerd said something along the lines of "I don't want a girlfriend." The Nerd thought the girl he was working with had a crush on him or some crap like that. He said something along the lines of "I don't want a girlfriend." when talking to his friend.

His friend said "But she's not a girl. She's a gamer."


Okay disregard the fact that what he said could be considered sexist. I know what he was suggesting. He was saying that "well she's a gamer just like you and therefore she's not intending to date you" I think. Well, I've never heard someone saying "she's not a GIRL" as a metaphor for "she's not intending to date you"! What is this type of word usage called? And can any of those parts of "not a girl" merit a Wiktionary entry for this meaning? PseudoSkull (talk) 01:25, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Metonymy. He used the word “girl” for the concept closely associated with the name of a sex: The participation in the sexual market. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 01:31, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
I think the implication isn't what you said, but rather "girls are not generally gamers, so she isn't a typical girl". Compare "he's not a cop, he's a cool guy" (for someone who does actually work as a policeman). Equinox 01:32, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Another, longer way of saying this kind of thing: "She not a girl girl; she's a gamer girl."
I've usually interpreted this kind of thing as "Don't think of her as a girl; think of her as a gamer." DCDuring (talk) 03:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
It's like the classic example: "I am single because I never speak to girls" / "Sure, what about your sister?" / "She's not a girl" --Spreaderofwords (talk) 19:14, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
I absolutely want to get with Wonderfool's sister. Equinox 22:38, 18 November 2017 (UTC)


The given definition doesn't seem to square with Wikipedia's article very well. I see it as partisan. Equinox 07:00, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

  • I had a go at rewriting this. Ƿidsiþ 07:58, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
  • It is IMO an improvement. Thanks for your effort! Equinox 01:05, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Template problems on Indonesian Wiktionary[edit]

Just bumped into wt:id:bahasa Belanda and saw a couple Lua errors. Apparently the codes bs and sr are not recognized by the translations template. I tried bos and srp, and same thing. I temporarily substituted bs with hr (Bosnian with Croatian) and sr with sh (Serbian with Serbo-Croatian), but I don't know if this is appropriate. Surely better than leaving "Lua error" in place of a translation if you ask me. Writing here coz my Indo is plain sheet (worse than my Wiki, and seeing the big fail in the above attempt to link to id.wiktionary.org/wiki/bahasa_Belanda with an interwiki link makes this comparison effective I guess :) ), and coz I don't know what their Tea Room (if they have one) is called. What do we do about that problem? Leave the changes I made, or make the template recognize bs and sr? Or are there different codes for bs and sr recognized by that template, and which if so? MGorrone (talk) 11:15, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

This isn't really something we can solve. Indonesian Wiktionary is entirely separate from English Wiktionary, so they have to write and manage their own templates/modules. —Rua (mew) 11:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
(Working link: id:bahasa Belanda --Dan Polansky (talk))
@Dan Polansky: any idea where I could write about this to get this problem solved? Is there a Tea Room on Indo Wikt? MGorrone (talk) 13:16, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
This link seems to yield recent changes outside of the mainspace, but I am not sure. id:Wiktionary:Warung_kopi seems it could be the Beer parlour. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:26, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

be out of the ark[edit]

wordreference gives "out of the ark" as a translation of French ringard. Is that a thing? --Barytonesis (talk) 11:53, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm guessing you already know this, but it's a reference to Noah's ark, as something that repopulated the planet long ago. Equinox 01:00, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Rhodesian English[edit]

We have a handful of terms like floppy that were used by white Rhodesians, and are still used by them and their descendants in the Rhodesian diaspora, chiefly in South Africa and the UK. I've been labelling them as Zimbabwe, but that's not quite accurate, given that when Zimbabwe replaced Rhodesia, they were no longer used there. Should we have a Category:Rhodesian English to cover this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:26, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Probably yes. Equinox 01:02, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

pandanus (pandan)[edit]

Is the definition correct, or should it be Pandanus amaryllifolius (Wikipedia) instead?

Wikipedia: Pandanus utilis is native to Madagascar, Mauritius, and the Seychelles, whereas Pandanus amaryllifolius is native to South and Southeast Asia.

Wyang (talk) 06:10, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

That's more of a problem with the definition at screw pine, which is almost universally used as a term for the entire genus, and sometimes for related genera. In the context of use for flavor and fragrance, it would be Pandanus amaryllifolius. In the context of use for weaving mats and in Polynesian culture, it would be Pandanus tectorius, and in the context of use as an ornamental/house plant, Pandanus utilis. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:58, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the change to screw pine. Should the definition of pandanus be modified too, perhaps to read something like: “Any of the palm-like plants in the genus Pandanus; screw pine.”? Wyang (talk) 12:34, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
If Wikispecies-logo.svg Pandanaceae on Wikispecies.Wikispecies is to be believed, any tree in the family Pandanaceae is a screw pine. DCDuring (talk) 03:05, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Appendix:English similes[edit]

I'm very tempted to RFD this, as it is redundant with Category:English similes, which is far more complete. The creator of the page himself (User:Paul G) said it was a temporary solution.

I'm loath to do that as long as they are red links in there, but I'm not convinced by the results I'm getting on Google books so I don't dare to create anything. To native speakers: which ones do you vouch for? --Barytonesis (talk) 22:24, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm familiar with most of them, but I think the real question is whether they're too SOP to list here or not. Since many of them are common, fixed phrases, that itself might make them worth having. "As phony as a three dollar bill" doesn't take a lot of brain power to decipher, but it is/was a common expression. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 23:57, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
bent as a nine-bob note. If it's absolutely a set phrase, IMO we should have it. You could say "as bent as a seventeen yen note" but nobody does. Equinox 01:01, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

dry pot[edit]

Can this also be a poker term as Wikipedia suggests? Can someone familiar with it add the relevant sense? Cheers. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:48, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Added now. Wyang (talk) 03:20, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:22, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Adding spoken language[edit]

Yesterday, I went to my country's National Library and found a book about the Temiar language and decided to put the Swadesh List of the language here. The book was published on 1961, way back before the formation of Malaysia and before the Malay spelling reform. This language is a spoken language which does not have it's own writing system. The book that I found was a documentation of the language and its people. Then, I encounter an online book of the language which is a Temiar-Malay dictionary published in 2014. The dictionary is just a draft and not a full documentation of the language. These two dictionaries had different spellings and that made me wonder if I should use the newer one instead of the old one. Here's the link for both of it: old (there's no full online archive of the book) or this, and new. --Malaysiaboy (talk) 09:30, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

What we do in cases like this is select a standard orthography for the language to use on Wiktionary. Ideally, that standard will be the one that is most used today when speakers actually write their language, or one that is promoted by a governmental institute and therefore is likely to see the most use in the future. The orthography that is chosen and its equivalents in other orthographies should be placed on an About page, like Wiktionary:About Temiar. Entries in orthographies other than the one chosen as a standard can still be on Wiktionary, but simply as alternative spellings pointing to a main entry in the standard orthography. If you want to see examples or need help with this, feel free to ask me. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:55, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
In that case, I have to do more research on this then. Thank you! --Malaysiaboy (talk) 03:48, 20 November 2017 (UTC)


Well, it's Japanese, but it's appearing as an English surname and given name, which I very much doubt. I'm not sure how to give it Japanese labels instead. DonnanZ (talk) 16:28, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Fixed it. —Globins 19:59, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
I thought of that while I was soaking in the bath. Cheers. DonnanZ (talk) 20:06, 19 November 2017 (UTC)'


Could someone please add the non-pathology (figurative) sense? Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 16:07, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

a-maying is a word but it isn't in the Wiktionary[edit]

How can a-maying be added to wiktionary? It's a form of the word "maying" -- celebrating May. It is used by Milton in his poem "L'Allegro". Issacbaird (talk) 01:07, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm not entirely convinced that Milton isn't simply referring to collecting flowers, but in any case, we did lack that verb sense, which I have now added at the very bottom of may. Note that the a- part is separable, and therefore the whole of a-maying shouldn't be added. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:12, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
"separable"? Do you mean 'It's spelled with a hyphen'? Or is it really separable as relating to separable prefixes and separable verbs (compare for example German abfahren and er fährt ab in which ab is separable)?
Anyway, in both cases it should be a matter of opinion (~> WT:RFD) whether or not an entry a-maying could be created. As for 'spelled with a hyphen' there are also several hypenated terms in Category:English words prefixed with non-, Category:English words prefixed with de-, shaped#Derived terms. And for the other case there is for example abfahren. - 01:46, 21 November 2017 (UTC)


What's the deal with these early citations from the 1940s? According to zine the word wasn't coined until 1965. DTLHS (talk) 02:04, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

zine and its coinage (in or around 1965?) has nothing to do with with fmz and its coinage (in or around the 1940s?). - 04:06, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
The quote in fmz supposedly from 1943 uses the word "zine". DTLHS (talk) 04:17, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Ok. The given link, efanzines.com/FWD/FWD31.htm , has more usages of zine and it's said to be from the Futurian War Digest Oct 1943 Vol: IIII No: I. If the transcription is correct, than zine with etymonline.com/word/zine as reference as well as www.dictionary.com/browse/zine?s=t aren't correct. The best google book has seem to be sources stating that Futurian War Digest did appear around that time. - 07:15, 21 November 2017 (UTC)


Is English ungird from Mid. Eng. ungirden from Old Eng. ongyrdan? Some of the quotes on this Middle English Dictionary are in the late 1400s (1470s and on). I just don't know for sure if it made it to English by this way. Anglish4699 (talk) 17:31, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Some dictionaries, like Miriam Webster connect the modern word to Middle English; others, like Century say it's a new creation from un- + gird. I don't see why we can't represent both theories--the modern meaning certainly reflects the latter. However, do you think we should move ongyrdan to ungyrdan ? Leasnam (talk) 21:02, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
I just took a peek at the entry and sense 1 is what is represented by the ME word, so I think it's safe to connect it. However, we could simply leave it as it is now, showing both Leasnam (talk) 21:09, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Okay, thanks for your work. I just wasn't sure about it. About ongyrdan, it should be moved to ungyrdan if it best be there. I didn't know if the Old English prefix un- was also for verbs, but I did know that there was the prefix on- from Old English ond-, and-, so I put it as "ongyrdan" (see etymology 2 for on-). Speaking on this with a broader view, this can also be applied to other on- verbs such as onbindan. I'll move the entry myself for ongyrdan. Again, thanks! Anglish4699 (talk) 21:42, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Taking a closer look, I do see some un- verbs... can't believe that got by me >_< Anglish4699 (talk) 21:55, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

looking for a word[edit]

Hi. I'm looking for a word that describes two types of verbs in English.

Type 1: come, graduate, quit, die
One CANNOT say, "I have come for two hours." "I have graduated for two years." "I have quit for two weeks." "He died five years."
Type 2: be, know, work, sleep
One CAN say, "I have been a lawyer for two weeks." "I have known him for two years." "I have worked here for two days." "I have slept in this room for a whole fortnight."

How would we describe these two types of verbs in English? Chinese does not distinguish between the two. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:11, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

(btw, graduate can be type 2 in Indian English) —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 13:42, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
I feel like type 1 is dynamic/fientive verbs and type 2 is stative verbs, but it may be more nuanced than that. —Mahāgaja (fomerly Angr) · talk 14:14, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
punctual vs. durative Crom daba (talk) 14:51, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Stative verb/durative verb, state verb/action verb. DCDuring (talk) 19:43, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

shop/store and luggage/baggage[edit]

As far as I know, 'shop' is BrE and 'store' is AmE; likewise, 'luggage' is BrE and 'baggage' is AmE. Is this not accurate? Our entries don't reflect this right now. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:32, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

As an AmE speaker, I'd say calling something a "shop" gives it more of a quaint, cozy feel than "store", and that many of the definitions besides #1 (An establishment that sells goods or services to the public...) are entirely current in modern AmE. As for "luggage" versus "baggage", I'm a little surprised to find that TSA (the US airport security guys) uses baggage at TSA.gov; in my idiolect, I'd always use "luggage" or "bags", and leave "baggage" for the negative sense (#2.) The Washington Post article "The secret life of baggage: Where does your luggage go at the airport?" uses all three, luggage, baggage, and bags, and I can't tell much distinction in how they're used. I don't know what's going on in BrE, but both luggage and baggage seem to be current in AmE.--Prosfilaes (talk) 08:35, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree with most of Prosfilaes's intuitions. A shop is smaller and cozier than a store; Barnes and Nobles is a bookstore, but the little place downtown with the cat and the old man who smells like pipe tobacco is a bookshop. I use luggage and baggage interchangeably. It may be, however, that the American usages of store and baggage aren't found in en-GB, so that they could be labeled {{lb|en|US}}, but shop and luggage probably shouldn't be labeled {{lb|en|UK}}. —Mahāgaja (fomerly Angr) · talk 08:58, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
In my experience baggage is limited to the second sense in AmE. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 13:40, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Per Collins COBUILD (via Farlex, via OneLook): "In British English, both these words refer to the bags and suitcases that you take with you when you travel, together with their contents. Luggage is more common than baggage. / In American English, luggage refers to empty bags and suitcases. Baggage refers to bags and suitcases with their contents." I agree with almost all the differences between baggage and luggage in US English and also with the synonymy of the two words in most people's idiolects. DCDuring (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, I agree that it's only luggage, not baggage, when it's empty (I'd buy new luggage, but never new baggage), but when it's full I'm pretty sure I can use either term for it. —Mahāgaja (fomerly Angr) · talk 20:38, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
If regional labels are added to these entries, Canadian usage follows what Prosfilaes describes. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 01:04, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
"Store" may be used for large chains etc. in the UK: "a DIY store" (I don't think Americans say "DIY" but "home improvement"...?), "a superstore". A little retail outlet is a shop. Equinox 18:47, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Russian "возвращение"[edit]

Hello! I'm from the Thai Wikipedia and I have a problem concerning the translation of the name of a Russian medal, Medal "For the Return of Crimea" (Медаль «За возвращение Крыма»). My question is: what does the term "возвращение" (or "return") in the name of this medal actually mean?

  1. Coming/going back (as in "the return to innocence", "the return of Jafar", "the return of Godzilla", etc)?
  2. Giving/bringing/delivering/sending back (as in "the return of property")?
  3. Or else?

Thanks a million! --หมวดซาโต้ (talk) 12:54, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

@Atitarev Wyang (talk) 13:02, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
@หมวดซาโต้, Wyang: Sorry for the late reply. возвраще́ние (vozvraščénije) means both coming/going back and bringing/taking back. The collocation возвраще́ние Кры́ма (vozvraščénije Krýma) can mean "return of (the) Crimea" in both "coming/going back" and "bringing/taking back" senses but the medal can only be given for the action. BTW, I don't support the annexation of the Crimea by Russia. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:27, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Arabic مَوْلَى (mawlā), pl. مَوالِي (mawālī)[edit]

Could someone please kindly create these two entries?

This is the word discussed in the Wikipedia articles Mawla and Mullah (?), and has a large number of meanings: "lord, protector, patron, client, companion, friend, trustee, helper, slave, freedman, uncle, nephew, non-Arab Muslim, etc." I'm especially interested in how these different senses arose from the root و ل ي (w-l-y) ― and it may be interesting to note that it is often claimed the sense "non-Arab Muslim" is derived from "freedman, slave".

Both forms are borrowed into Chinese, as 毛拉 (máolā) and 馬瓦里马瓦里 (mǎwǎlǐ), respectively. Wyang (talk) 08:32, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

I just leave a note since I can't contribute right know as I'm editing with mobile: The senses "lord, master" (active voice) and "non-Arab Muslim" are widely attested in Classical Arabic, the laater being developed from the passive voice of the same root, w-l-y, also pronounced identicaly, and would mean "slave". I think mullah is a Persian development and is not attested in Arabic. Plus, it is currently popular only in Persian-influenced languages, and not modern Arabic. --Z 13:22, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Interestingly, Hindi has both मौला (maulā, creator (poetic)) and मुल्ला (mullā, mullah, Muslim cleric). Both are in use. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 00:13, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang, ZxxZxxZ, AryamanA: The entry مَوْلًى (mawlan) is created, its plural indefinite is مَوَالٍ (mawālin). مَوْلَى (mawlā) and مَوَالِي‏ (mawālī) (pl) are informal. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 14:41, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Thank you, Anatoli. Wyang (talk) 14:46, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
You're welcome, Frank. @ZxxZxxZ, I think you're right. مَوْلًى (mawlan) is an Arabic word but مُلَّا (mullā) could be a re-borrowing from Persian. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 14:49, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Etymology for Zwitter?[edit]

Although Wiktionary does have a page for the German term Zwitter, it does not have proper etymology information (or any at all) and does not note the more or less unique nature of this coined term. Given the unusual way it came to prominence, and what odd terms surrounded it in regards to those circumstances, would it not be worth noting how a work like Zwitter formed, as extremely few German words actually use "Zwit-" as a prefix? 15:11, 23 November 2017 (UTC)


What should be done with this? It obviously belongs to gold, but there's already translations there. DonnanZ (talk) 22:33, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Nothing since it would cause a Lua memory error if the translations were moved back. DTLHS (talk) 22:34, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
It's on the hit list you sent me. OK, no further action. DonnanZ (talk) 00:20, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
Actually, I think the link at gold should be highlighted better, placed in a band perhaps? I didn't notice it first of all. DonnanZ (talk) 09:30, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
E.g. something like a {{trans-see}} link. DonnanZ (talk) 10:02, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
I like that idea; it would make the link to the translations more visible. Obviously this is also a reminder that we need to solve the root problem, and make the translations templates and modules use less memory... - -sche (discuss) 18:21, 24 November 2017 (UTC)


Something is wrong here that I cannot quite articulate. Sense: "An anthropomorphic representation of a skeleton." Usex: "She dressed up as a skeleton for Halloween." But she didn't dress up as "an anthropomorphic" whatever; she dressed up as a bone thing, a normal skeleton, surely. IMO there is a similar problem at catgirl, where we give a second sense of "A female who wears a cat costume". It's like having a sense at train for "a little model resembling a train", and exemplifying it with "he loves to play with his train set". Equinox 00:24, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

How about
(fantasy) An animated skeleton as an undead being.
Crom daba (talk) 01:06, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
Is it even necessary, though? Do we need an extra sense at "mouse" for "an anthropomorphic mouse that acts like a person", for Mickey and friends? Equinox 01:31, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
In Mickey's world, anything can be anthropomorphized. A mouse is nothing special. But a skeleton, in many fantasy worlds and bleeding into general pop-culture, is a special being that is a skeleton animated by some sort of magic. It's its own class of thing.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:14, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
Like a zombie. Perhaps. How do you feel about the catgirl thing I mentioned? Equinox 04:20, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
I'd remove the second definition from catgirl. Crom daba (talk) 04:59, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't know about catgirl; I've never heard that definition. If it refers to someone who dresses up like a catgirl, then it should be deleted, but if it refers to someone who dresses up as a cat, then it should be kept. It's all about context.--Prosfilaes (talk) 09:26, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
It's someone who dresses as a catgirl. You see them at anime conventions etc. (apparently!). Equinox 00:36, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't know: Commons Category:Catgirls offer "A catgirl, also known as Nekomimi, is a female character with cat traits, such as cat ears, a cat tail, or other feline characteristics on an otherwise human body." I'm not sure whether women who put on cat ears are dressing up like catgirls or are catgirls.--Prosfilaes (talk) 05:47, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
What I mean is that many anime/manga franchises have catgirl characters (they are not women with ears on, they are fictional cat-woman hybrids) and those are what people dress up as at those conventions. Outside of Japanese comics I don't think the catgirl is a big thing. Equinox 06:34, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
I've seen women and girls wear cat ears; Necomimi Brainwave Cat Ears were a popular (or at least well-advertised) tech novelty a few years back. If they are called catgirls, then I'd think that needs a separate entry.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:51, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


This page is unnecessary because it's already a section on w/god. I'm asking that it be deleted. --Robbinorion (talk) 07:13, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

By w/god, do you mean god? The translation section was moved from god to god/translations because it takes up too much memory. —Stephen (Talk) 07:57, 24 November 2017 (UTC)


In "And thund'ring swells the horrors of the main" (John Wolcot/Peter Pindar, "The Storm", from "To My Candle") what sense of main is used? "Open sea", "mainland", something else? Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:48, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Probably "open sea". —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 16:46, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes. Sense 2 of the noun. DonnanZ (talk) 21:32, 24 November 2017 (UTC)


Old Engli.sh shows a 3rd person scīedeþ but I couldn't find that stem on B&T for forsceadan or sceadan. I could only find scēad_ or scād_. What is the mutstem? It would be great if we could generalize these mutstems as best as we can. Also, is the Pronunciation of /forˈʃæːɑdɑn/ right on the page? Anglish4699 (talk) 19:36, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

I took a look at various related verbs: sċēadan, tōsċēadan, forsċēadan, etc. and it appears this verb was already in transition from an originally strong verb (pt = sċēod/sċēd; ppt = sċēaden) to one that was weak, especially in tōsċēadan (pt = tōsċēadde). As such, I thought that forms like the 2nd and 3rd person singular sċēadest, sċēadeþ might be due to levelling, but this is probably not the case. Instead, because these derive from PGmc *skaiþizi and *skaiþidi respectively, the early OE would be *sċǣdis, *sċǣdiþ, which would then break into sċēadest, sċēadeþ, so the mutstem is actually sċēad for this verb and not *sċīed as might be expected at first glance. This kinda makes sense too, since the expected first person singular would be sċāde rather than sċēade...Leasnam (talk) 21:28, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
sċādan/sċēadan reminds me a bit of slāpan/slǣpan (to sleep), in that in addition to raising (seen in both, in the second forms) there is also breaking in the first. Forms like sċādeþ though are probably due to levelling/analogy and not inherited from PGmc. Then, preterite forms in sċēod- (from earlier sċēd-) broke due to analogy with ēa in the present stem (cf. waxan/wōx > weaxan/wēox) Leasnam (talk) 21:36, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
Wow, okay. Now I see why the 2nd and 3rd would have sċēad_ and not *sċīed_. Thank you! About the broken forms and future verbs, is it best to leave out the later broken forms and only put the inherited forms in? Anglish4699 (talk) 23:22, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
Personally, I would use the inherited forms [largely due to my <<ahem>> God-awful prescriptivist tendencies lol] and list the alternative tense-forms as synonyms on those pages, should they ever be created...but it's completely up to you how you want to do them...there really is no rule, except that they be verifiable Leasnam (talk) 01:28, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation of griffon[edit]

The Wiktionary entry says griffon rhymes with stiffen. However, as part of Brussels Griffon it's pronounced differently in this video and in this video (both of which are from the U.S.). Is the word pronounced differently when it's part of the name of the breed and/or in the U.S.? (Yes, I was inspired to look this up because a Brussels Griffon was awarded Best in Show at the National Dog Show in the U.S. a couple of days ago.) Dyspeptic skeptic (talk) 20:56, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

expensive drunk[edit]

Is this SoP? You can also be an expensive date, expensive mistress, etc. Same goes for cheap drunk. Equinox 00:24, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it is too slangy to be idiomatical, i. e. having been used by enough people to develop an independent meaning. Also, look on it from the reader side: Nobody will get the idea of searching “expensive drunk” instead of its constituent parts, only we do it by goodwill. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 01:09, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
It's idiomatic. An expensive date is just a date that costs a lot of money. An expensive mistress is just a mistress who costs a lot of money. But an expensive drunk is not a drunk who costs a lot of money. It is someone who needs to drink a lot of alcohol before they can get drunk. No actual transaction needed. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:54, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
@Tooironic: But the idea is still that getting all this alcohol will cost a lot of money, no? I do think that it's more idiomatic/more of a set phrase than the rest, though. --Barytonesis (talk) 14:43, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
See also cheapdate Chuck Entz (talk) 18:48, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

"...sakuya 'kono' hana"[edit]

While analyzing Wani's poem, it appears there is a slight difference:

  • 905, Kokin Wakashū (introduction)
    •  (なに) () () ()くや () (はな) (ふゆ)ごもり (いま) (はる)べと ()くやこの (はな)
      Naniwa-zu ni sakuya ko no hana fuyu-gomori ima wa harube to sakuya kono hana
      (please add an English translation of this example)

The bolded lines can be either interpreted as ko no hana (flowers on the trees), kono hana (this flower), or both. The translations haved use one or the other, but (probably) not both. From the deviations, are the two lines of sakuya kono hana pun-intended or independent of each other? (Note that fuyu-gomori is an epithet)

In a related matter, in kyōgi karuta, the reader says 春べと (ima o harube to), is this from a later sound shift from ima wa harube to or for rhyming purposes? --POKéTalker (talk) 09:15, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, KDJ has an entry for 此の花 (kono hana, literally this flower), and the top two defs (the two that appear relevant) are:

1 (「このはな(木花)1」から転じて)桜の花の雅称。 -- (Shift from 木の花 (ko no hana, literally tree's flower) sense 1) Elegant label for the cherry blossom.
2 (「このはな(木花)2」から転じて)梅の花の雅称。 -- (Shift from 木の花 (ko no hana, literally tree's flower) sense 2) Elegant label for the plum blossom.

The KDJ entry for 木の花 provides two definitions:

1 木に咲く花。特に、桜の花をいう。 -- A flower that blooms on a tree. In particular, refers to the cherry blossom.
2 梅の花の雅称。「此の花」と意識されることもある。 -- Elegant label for the plum blossom. Also sometimes perceived as 此の花 (kono hana).

The KDJ entry for 難波津 (Naniwa-zu) includes a quote of this same poem, using the 此の花 spelling.
Daijirin's entry for 此の花 (here at Kotobank) states:

梅の花の異名。 -- Alternative term for “plum blossom”.
菊の花の異名。 -- Alternative term for “chrysanthemum blossom”.

Take that for what you will. I suspect “plum blossom” is what Wani was going for, given that flower's strong associations with the return of spring. The potential for punning here is slight, and at most alludes to the poet looking right at a particular blossom bud while musing out the poem. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:53, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Usage example at spetacciare[edit]

Just bumped into this and noticed the usage example doesn't actually use the word: "dragone che […] co le coda sfracassa" does not contain any inflected form of spetacciare, only the present tense of sfracassare. Is it misquoted or should we replace it with another quote? And which, if so? Also, do we know the etymology of this word? MGorrone (talk) 14:05, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

UPDATE: Not misquoted. Or rather, there was an error (perhaps a typo) in the article, which I fixed to "la" instead of "le". Cfr. here. MGorrone (talk) 14:17, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Found an example: {http://web.tiscalinet.it/ssssusy/voci_1999_8.html here it is}. Sentence: «Evidentemente abbiamo (plurale m.) ricevuto una reazione chimica piuttosto indesiderata, viso che sono riuscito (singolare plebeo) a spetacciare le cinture di sicurezza e la doppia camicia di forza senza sforzo apparente.», «We (plurale maiestatis) evidently have received a rather unwanted chemical reaction, seen as I (plebean singular) have managed to tear the safety belts and the double straitjacket with no apparent effort». Is that source OK? MGorrone (talk) 14:23, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Usage notes for Chinese [edit]

It has recently be edited by anons. I don't quite agree with the part where it says "it's not necessarily said to child or an adolescent, it's also said to an adult inferior". @Wyang, Tooironic, Dokurrat, any thoughts? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 04:47, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

What is an "adult inferior" exactly? Sounds ambiguous to me. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:50, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
It's User:Fête's obsession with these types of entries. Anyway, I protected the entry and reworded the notes and definition- please take a look. Wyang (talk) 04:56, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang: Looks good... thanks! — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 04:57, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: As for Mandarin, I think I would used 老實 for adults, but 乖乖兒地(adv) is also possible; I can't think up circumstances to use 乖 to describe adults though. If I really heard an adult is being described as 乖, I would think his or her must be too obedient. Dokurrat (talk) 05:02, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

it's easy to be wise after the event[edit]

I'm not sure whether it's considered a proverb. DonnanZ (talk) 15:56, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Well we do have hindsight is 20/20. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:32, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
That is one I had never heard of, I don't think it is used in the UK. DonnanZ (talk) 09:51, 28 November 2017 (UTC)


@Wyang, Tooironic, Dokurrat, Suzukaze-c, I feel like not all these senses are used, but I'm a bit confused as to which senses are referred to. It'd be nice to have example sentences to make it easier to understand the different senses of English time that correlate with Chinese 時候. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 20:56, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, Tooironic, Dokurrat, Suzukaze-c This is very confusing, including the split according to the senses of English time and the countable/uncountable tags. I suggest we write it as three senses instead (two modern and one literary), per Hanyu Da Cidian: (1) (literary) season and climate; (2) a period of time; and (3) a point in time; moment. Wyang (talk) 07:17, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
@Justinrleung, Wyang: I agree. Dokurrat (talk) 07:44, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
  • If memory serves me right, I was the one who made the original changes to differentiate the senses. I'm all for rewriting the definitions to make them more accurate, but not with removing the countable/uncountable labels. This is very useful information that no other dictionary (AFAIK) provides. ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:10, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
  • @Tooironic: I think it was A-cai who made these distinctions. I agree the countable/uncountable labels should be kept, but we definitely need example sentences. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:21, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

French soldat[edit]

Indian French on Wikipedia claims this definition in the French dialect used in Yanam, a French-speaking neighborhood of Puducherry:

Colloquially: Indians with French citizenship
Literally: Soldier

Does anyone have any Indian French resources to help verify this claim? I didn't even know French was still used in the former French colonies in India. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 01:36, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

I tried a few keywords, and the only book I could find that used it in that sense in running French text was this one. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 15:50, 28 November 2017 (UTC)


I'm surprised to find that we don't have this word. Or maybe I am just making it up. Could "Westernism" be attested in something like the sense of "a word or concept imported from the West"? ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:28, 28 November 2017 (UTC)


Could someone please help me add the BrE pronunciation? Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:11, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

"the government effected a good many changes"[edit]

How would one parse the phrase "the government effected a good many changes"? Why is "a" compulsory here? "Good" and "many" are adjectives right? And "changes" is a plural noun... ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:49, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

@Tooironic: "A good many" = "several" or "a lot". I think it is more common in British English. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 15:44, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
See a good many at OneLook Dictionary Search. A few dictionaries have it as an idiom. It might be a carryover of archaic grammar or semantics. Parsing it makes me think of good as an adverb. Many might be a noun in the expression, but seems better characterized as a determiner. A good number of changes is synonymous, so perhaps changes was a genitive. DCDuring (talk) 17:34, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
See [[a good many]], in which I have characterized a good many as a determiner. DCDuring (talk) 17:40, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
See also [[a good few]]. Are there other similar uses of good? DCDuring (talk) 17:47, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
a good dealΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:02, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Somewhat similar is good part, as in a good part of [a day]|[five days], the good part of [a day]|[five days]. Further, one can also find the same expression with better or even best using the same sense of good. DCDuring (talk) 18:06, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Some can play a role parallel to that of good in both a good few (some few) and, less commonly, a good many (some many). DCDuring (talk) 18:17, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Many thanks to all involved. Very helpful! ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:38, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    • Thanks for noticing what seems to be an idiom, a common one, that escaped us. DCDuring (talk) 04:13, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Peoples’ names in Arabic using the definite article in h1[edit]

There are some nationality pieces on Wiktionary with the definite article, as القبط and الفرس; I do not know about others because of lacking categorization of these names. I think that having these people names with the definite article as lemmata is wrong as it is thinkable to have these names at least in the construct state, for example قبط السودان, and on the other hand people search the names without ال (al-) and editors link to the names without ال (al-), as the English article Copt does though the linked form without the article is not created. Also Arabic Wikipedia has them all without the article in the title, like فرس (مجموعة إثنية) or قبط,‎ فور. Do you share the assessment that these names should be mown? @Profes.I., @Atitarev? — Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 14:58, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

@Palaestrator verborum: I concur with you on all accounts. --Profes.I. 16:20, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
Correct, no article in lemmas. Model on عَرَب (ʿarab, Arabs) or رُوس (rūs, Russians). For linking in examples, one can use alternative forms for display, e.g. الرُّوس‏ (ar-rūs) links to روس. If the entries with ال (al-) already exist, we can term them to redirects to lemmas without "al-". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:48, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Dutch gourmet and gourmetten[edit]

I created these entries but I'm at a loss how to define these concepts in English. A Dutch person would surely know what it is, but I can't think of any word that describes it in English. The senses in the English entry refer to entirely different things. —Rua (mew) 23:25, 28 November 2017 (UTC)


@Wyang, Justinrleung, Atitarev, Suzukaze-c The current etymology section (more can be seen in commented wikicode) smells fictional to me. Any ideas? Dokurrat (talk) 20:23, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm sure @2001:da8:201:3512:bce6:d095:55f1:36de has a source for this. Wyang (talk) 20:27, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
@Dokurrat (S)he added a note to the etymology:
"《汉语外来词词典》上海辞书出版社1984年12月 / also appears in http://ishare.iask.sina.com.cn/f/11777230.html p162".
For reference, a screenshot of the relevant passage on p162 of the second reference is here. I think we should add this book (外来词:异文化的使者 史有为) to Wiktionary:About Chinese/references. Manchu lagu is verified in 《御製満珠蒙古漢字三合切音清文鑑》 ― screenshot of the entry is here, glossed exactly as '蝲蝲蛄'. Wyang (talk) 04:16, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang: Roger. Dokurrat (talk) 06:58, 30 November 2017 (UTC)


The definition seems to be wrong: it is circular. Equinox 20:46, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

all oak and iron bound[edit]

Is that a thing? There's this, but not much else. --Barytonesis (talk) 21:59, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Google "all oak and iron bound" (BooksGroupsScholarNews Archive). DCDuring (talk) 22:29, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

sound as a barrel[edit]

Is that a thing? There's this, but not much else. --Barytonesis (talk) 22:00, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Google "all oak and iron bound" (BooksGroupsScholarNews Archive) DCDuring (talk) 22:30, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

weaker sex[edit]

Historically speaking, I don't think this term was (meant as) offensive; this is a recent development. --Barytonesis (talk) 22:41, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it was once "gallant". Changed to "now offensive". Equinox 22:45, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't really agree that it is now "offensive". It is just an outdated expression. Mihia (talk) 01:21, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, imagine using it in politics or in the boardroom. It would be seen as patronising and out of touch at best, probably as deeply disparaging. Not sure how we measure offensiveness, though. Equinox 19:57, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
But does any modern speaker actually use it? Theoretically if they did it would probably be offensive. 2600:1011:B107:A324:14A4:4BD2:F9D3:375C 20:03, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
If people used it nowadays with offensive intent, or were offended to read it in older works, then the "now offensive" label would be correct. AFAIK it is not used now offensively, and when read in original context it is not "offensive" to modern eyes, but just reflecting an older style of thinking that does not chime with modern views. Mihia (talk) 02:33, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't think it's about intent. If it was about intent, we wouldn't need a dictionary to tell us what might be offensive, because offence would be determined by whether we wanted to offend. A word like negro used to be a neutral term to refer to black people (in encyclopaedias etc.) but is clearly offensive today. Equinox 03:16, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Isn’t it even SoP because it is a fact? “Weak” in relation to the sexes of humankind automatically means “womankind” without any idiomatic addition, for in humans, woman are statistically weaker than men by their muscular composition, if not by the mental one. And expressions which aren’t idiomatic can neither develop connotations. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 20:08, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't think it can be said to be purely SoP, no. Mihia (talk) 02:34, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Men are statistically weaker by pain tolerance, by having external vulnerable dangling bits, by being more likely to have many X-linked genetic diseases, by dying earlier. And every set of frequently used words get connotations, even if it's far beyond us to annotation all of them.--Prosfilaes (talk) 20:07, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
"weaker sex" is considered offensive now because it is considered degrading to women. It wasn't before; absolute power by men in society was the norm throughout most of history (in slightly different forms but mostly the same). It wasn't offensive back then because in those days (if you go back even 400-500 years) women didn't even challenge their authority or position at all. Nowadays, feminism is well-established (compared to before), much thought about, and much emphasized by modern society. I think "now offensive" is definitely appropriate. In fact, I've never heard anyone actually use this term before in my life, ever, when I've ever conversed with anyone, online or real life. I've only seen it in historical texts and novels. If a male politician called women "the weaker sex" nowadays, man; the negative publicity would be right up his ass. PseudoSkull (talk) 05:59, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
You seem to agree that it is not used offensively now, and that historical uses seen in their historical context are not offensive now, so I can't quite see why you think "now offensive" is an appropriate label. Mihia (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Well, anyone who used the term now would most likely offend a very wide audience. 500 years ago, it would not have offended almost anyone. PseudoSkull (talk) 04:23, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Except maybe Christine de Pizan. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 04:26, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

December 2017


The pallium in Neuroanatomy is not the same as the cortex, but more like its embryonary origin. Thus, I don't think the definition should redirect to the cortex (and neither the translations section). --Pablussky (talk) 09:30, 1 December 2017 (UTC)


This entry is not created. Is this a SoP? Dokurrat (talk) 18:06, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't think so; English rat poison exists. Wyang (talk) 22:57, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Talk pages[edit]

Every time I try to write something in a talk page two messages are proposing to not write there. The talk pages of a wiki project are specific pages for discussion about problems in the page so that future editors can see them. By not writing there we "hide" from future editors of that page all these problems. Consider also that some new editors may understand these messages not as hints but as a community request and will not edit the talk page, leaving future editors without clues about problems in that page. We should somehow inform future editors about all other discussions made throughout the years for that specific page. Either by poking an automatic notice that discussions exist, there and there, or by some other idea. The message about the fact that "general questions" should be asked in another place is ok. --Xoristzatziki (talk) 06:53, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

That's why I try to make it a personal habit to put a link to the community pages on the specific talk pages: Talk:paradis fiscal, Talk:tax haven, for example. It's been useful on at least one occasion: Talk:about that life (see the last discussion). But it's rather tedious, and going back to old Tea room/Etymology Scriptorium discussions would be even more. I wish we had some sort of archiver. There's one for RfV and RfD requests, but it removes the discussion from the community page; here we'd want to leave it there. --Barytonesis (talk) 10:45, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Old-fashioned window[edit]

Hello! How do we call this type of window? Is there a (specific) term for it? Casement? Thank you very much! --หมวดซาโต้ (talk) 08:55, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

awning window. See Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg Window on Wikipedia.Wikipedia . DCDuring (talk) 14:30, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

older brother and older sister[edit]

What's going on in the translation tables here? ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:34, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Special:Diff/42846770 and Special:Diff/42846768 by -sche. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 14:46, 2 December 2017 (UTC)


In my observation, this word has been increasingly and steadily associated with internet pornography diffusion. Should we update this entry to reflect such usage? Dokurrat (talk) 18:52, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

It has a whole range of usages. I think it would be misleading to single out any particular one. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:24, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
I think that ## {{lb|zh|specifically}} would be harmless. —suzukaze (tc) 02:27, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
I think this more comes under the heading of Usage notes. But if you added that connotation you'd have to add all the other ones as well, otherwise it would look like that is the most common usage (which it isn't). ---> Tooironic (talk) 13:36, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Script for Cham words[edit]

បែក#Etymology, egg/translations, and Đà_Nẵng#Etymology_2 all use different scripts for cja: Cham, Arab, Latn. Is this right? —suzukaze (tc) 02:33, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

@Stephen G. Brown, do you happen to know? —suzukaze (tc) 04:35, 18 December 2017 (UTC)


Would gangan be i-umlauted in 2nd and 3rd person present to give something like geng(e)st and geng(e)þ? I couldn't find these conjugations on B&T but Old Engli.sh has gengþ. May or may not be right, just don't know. Anglish4699 (talk) 03:04, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Hmmm, initially I would say yes, and I would think the forms would be *gæng-. Even though we don't have an Old English attestation of it, there is an early Middle English attestation of gengþ from 1275: Þe hare..gengþ wel suiþe a waywart which suggests that it may have been inherited from Old English. Some consider gengþ to be derived from another verb, however, OE gengan, so it's difficult to say for sure. The presence of gengan may have led to the substitution of non-mutated forms in gangan to avoid confusion, but I am just guessing on that. Otherwise, gangan is a strong verb, and is expected to typically have i-mutation in the stem. But I think the way you show it in the Conj table is fine as is Leasnam (talk) 13:57, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Many thanks for the help! Anglish4699 (talk) 04:10, 6 December 2017 (UTC)


@Wyang, Justinrleung, Dokurrat Can this also be pronounced as "mo" or "m" in words like 什麼/怎麼? If so, should they be included in the entry? —suzukaze (tc) 05:50, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: According to 漢語方言詞彙, in Beijing, 什麼 can be shénm; 這麼, zènm; 那麼, nènm; 怎麼, zěnm. As a side note, I've also heard of 什麼 read as shě(n)mé. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:57, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c: Well... I think I pronounce this syllable as a m+schwa (unstressed), i.e. /-mə/ in my daily life. If I intentially pronounced this syllable stressed (e.g. giving a speech, singing a song), I think I would speak something like /-m(ɯ̽)ʌ/. I think "/-m/" is a more weak form that can be heard in colloquial speech. Not "*mo", at least not me. Disclaimer: personal experience. Dokurrat (talk) 06:08, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c: But "*mo" do looks promising... Maybe we can find verification somewhere in very conservative dictionaries? Dokurrat (talk) 06:12, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
(Teresa Teng uses 怎麼 "zenmo" here. —suzukaze (tc) 06:16, 3 December 2017 (UTC))
@Suzukaze-c: It's probably the same situation as 了 liao and 的 di, where the "original" pronunciation of the character is used. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:18, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
I did not think to compare it to those cases 😅. 的#Etymology_2 includes di; should 了#Etymology_1 and 麼#Etymology_1 include liao and mo? —suzukaze (tc) 06:26, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes, mo is an alt reading used in certain registers and is worthy of inclusion. I think m would be better handled as an |m_note=. Wyang (talk) 15:49, 3 December 2017 (UTC)


This term can be used outside of mathematics, figuratively, right? Could someone add this? ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:26, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Equinox 20:38, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:39, 4 December 2017 (UTC)


We've an adverb section for precious, where we're glossing it as "very". However, I'm not aware of it being used in other phrases than "precious few" and "precious little". Should I add a note at precious, and create those? (which other dictionaries have) --Barytonesis (talk) 20:22, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Interesting. I thought there must be other words it goes with, but can't think of any. Equinox 20:39, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
"it is of the two-dimensional variety, length and breadth, but precious scant depth" [5].
"The interest on these being deducted, amounting to $600,000, it being doubtful whether they will ever pay the cost of maintenance, and there remains but a precious small sum for defraying the interest on the cost of the enlargement" [6].
"but that is a mere trifle to your facility for building up a formidable theory on precious slight foundations". [7] Mihia (talk) 04:30, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
@Mihia: Thanks for this. I still think that "precious few" and "precious little" might deserve an entry, and that at the very least, a note to the effect of "this adverb is chiefly/overwhelmingly used with "few" and "little"" should be added to precious. Do you agree? --Barytonesis (talk) 18:37, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
And in any case, this only works with adjectives belonging to the semantic field of "little, small, scarce, few". --Barytonesis (talk) 18:42, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes, a note seems a good idea. My suggestion would be something like "used with words that express smallness of quantity, especially in the phrases 'precious few' and 'precious little'". Mihia (talk) 21:03, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

out of doors[edit]

Is it simply an alt form of outdoors? Shouldn't it be labeled as "rare"? --Barytonesis (talk) 20:56, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I think you’re right that it’s an alt form. I can’t think of any circumstance where they wouldn’t be interchangeable (and out of doors is also used in the noun senses of outdoors, which are currently absent from the former entry). On the other hand, it’s far from rare; maybe “dated” would be a better label, since it doesn’t turn up often in works since the 1950s or so. Google Ngrams confirms that it’s falling out of use, and that it was once as common as outdoors is now. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 02:13, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

For a bot?[edit]

In Category:English words prefixed with anti- some pages anti-+ROOT are collated as beginning with anti- and others with the ROOT. Can a bot fix this easily?

Curious, as I'm not native. Why is anti- pronunciation given as /i/ or /aɪ/ and later in antibiotic as /ə/? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 13:28, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
As the British and American pronunciations for anti- differ, it may depend on where the contributor is from. DonnanZ (talk) 13:33, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Many Americans have them in free variation, fixed only in common lexical items. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:01, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Presumably the /ə/ here should in any case be notated as diaphonemic /ɨ/, as the reduced realization of this vowel is like the one in roses, varying by speaker from [ɪ] to [ɪ̈] to [ə]. Although we notate this vowel as /ɪ/ at enough and the second syllable of mistress, so it seems we’re being inconsistent anyway. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 14:31, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


Would someone know how the Latin superstitio (which comes from supersto (to stand over/upon; to survive)) came to mean what it means? --Barytonesis (talk) 23:19, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

According to etymonline, "There are many theories to explain the Latin sense development, but none has yet been generally accepted; de Vaan suggests the sense is "cause to remain in existence." Originally in English especially of religion; sense of "unreasonable notion" is from 1794.". DTLHS (talk) 04:35, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Lewis and Short's entry has: "sŭperstĭtĭo , ōnis, f. super-sto; orig a standing still over or by a thing; hence, amazement, wonder, dread, esp. of the divine or supernatural." DCDuring (talk) 13:49, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
It is because you imagine things being above your head when you have a godly world in mind. Note that it does mean “religion” in general first. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 18:31, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

ᚦᚢᚱ, ᚱᛅᛁᛋᛅ[edit]

These two are listed as Old Norse, but should they be Proto-Norse (gmq-pro)? If so, there may be more included in Old Norse [8] DonnanZ (talk) 13:27, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia, "[Proto-Norse] evolved into the dialects of Old Norse at the beginning of the Viking Age in about 800", so theoretically, a 10th/11th century inscription wouldn't qualify. --Barytonesis (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

point of inquiry[edit]

Why was my entry of Point of Inquiry reverted? (The process of finding answers and seeking new knowledge) Would 'An entryway into idealization on a specific topic' be a more apt description? —This unsigned comment was added by AaronEJ (talkcontribs) at 18:42, 2017 December 6.

I don't know the specifics, but I would probably revert it myself. At the very least I would RfV it to determine whether there really is any attestation that unambiguously supports the definition provided, especially as a cursory review of other dictionaries (point of inquiry at OneLook Dictionary Search) suggests that none of the included dictionaries find it entryworthy with any definition. That w:Point of Inquiry is for a podcast makes me suspicious that the entry was intended to promote the podcast. (That the entity may be non-commercial does not negate the possibility of promotion.) DCDuring (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Is point of inquiry in politics really anything different than the SoP term? Is it defined anywhere in a parliamentary authority, eg, in Robert's Rules of Order or Erskine May: Parliamentary Practice, or somewhere in Hansard? DCDuring (talk) 23:59, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Oil-press (or machine) parts[edit]

Can someone help me identify the parts to this in English? I'll list the names in clockwise order spiralling inwards starting from the top:

Outer parts: માકડો, કૂકરી, ફાડ, વાંકેલી, નાડવેલો, માંચ, પૈયું - wheel, ધીંસરું, ઝોળો, કૂકરી - a wooden wedge?, ડાબિયાર, કસવાટ - a wooden frame?, કોઠો, ???, લાઠ, ચૂડી;
Inner parts: ગધેલું, ફાચેરો, કૂંડી, ગજ, જાંગી, થડ, ફીસણ, ઠોઠિયું, નાળવું
Please help. DerekWinters (talk) 00:27, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Was the deleted image of an olive-oil press? There is a commons category of such images. DCDuring (talk) 16:37, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
The deleted image seems to have been this one. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 23:25, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
The stones are a counterweight to allow the operator(s) to lift the pestle(?). All the stuff at the top of the lever that raises and lowers the pestle looks like some lashing to link the curved bit (metal?) to the compound-curved arm (wood?). It looks like the curved bit is not fixed to the lever but attached with rope that has substantial play. Perhaps the chain and the other lever arms also serve to impart circular motion to the pestle, but I don't get the principle. At the bottom of the mortar or drum is a basin to catch leakage and spillage from the opening at the bottom of the mortar. The L-shaped bit must be a latch to hold the door over the opening shut. The ring seems to be intended to hold the short arm the goes through the big lever and the horn-shaped arm to the big lever arm.
I don't understand the full role of the horn-shaped piece that bears on the mortar/drum. Nor do understand the role of the chain
I wonder whether the oar-shaped arm is where the power is applied by men or oxen to impart circular motion to the counterweighted pestle through the heavy horizontal arm.
Alternatively, is the linkage mechanism between the "oar" and the heavy arm intended to impart some limited up-and-down motion to the pestle to press the oil? If we understand how it is supposed to work we could probably find names for the components.
Commons has some pictures of rustic olive-oil presses that might help. DCDuring (talk) 04:29, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

to the effect[edit]

I don't know how to do this entry. --Barytonesis (talk) 18:38, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

in twain[edit]

Archaic, rare, humorous? --Barytonesis (talk) 23:45, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

archaic Leasnam (talk) 03:14, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

at your service[edit]

Our definition is strangely restrictive. Doesn't it simply mean "[I'm] at your disposal"? --Barytonesis (talk) 20:29, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

I think our definition is wrong. The ones included under References are different. DCDuring (talk) 22:24, 8 December 2017 (UTC)


For the verb, this entry previously existed:

To drive around leisurely in a motorised vehicle.

In the UK, at least, there is a dated meaning of "travel by motor car", which does not necessarily imply "around" or "leisurely", so I added:

(Britain, dated) To make a journey by motor vehicle.

But are these actually distinct meanings? Does anyone recognise the first one as modern usage? What is AmE usage here? (And, by the way, is anyone else unhappy, like me, about using "leisurely" as an adverb?) Mihia (talk) 03:03, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't use it intentionally and it shouldn't be in a definiens, IMO. We could use three citations of its use. The one we have might be a way of indicating low-social-status/education of a Chandler hard-boiled detective. I am also chagrined by [[leisurelily]], which I can't imagine anyone actually saying out loud. DCDuring (talk) 20:35, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I found about as many mentions of leisurelily as uses, some possibly jesting. One work said leisurely#Adverb derives from leisurelily by haplology. Other works mention others adjectives whose -ly form adverbs follow the same pattern: kindly, friendly, lonely, lovely, holy, homely, weekly, deadly, sickly, jolly. DCDuring (talk) 20:44, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't buy that "leisurely" derives from "leisurelily", in the sense that people tried out "leisurelily" first and then decided to simplify it. I think that "leisurelily" most probably was hardly attempted in the first place. For me, many (not all) of those other words sound equally wrong as adverbs. Mihia (talk) 01:27, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Wiktionary:Tea_room/2016/October#likely and Category:English words suffixed with -ly (adjectival). --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 01:42, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Sense 1 seems to me to not be a distinct sense. Also, sense 4 seems a particular application of sense 3. Other dictionaries, including my back-straining MW2, don't have these, but do have other senses that are dated and not common, but seem real. DCDuring (talk) 03:57, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
OK, I have merged them. If anyone disagrees, please restore. Mihia (talk) 20:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't drive but to describe car travel as "motoring" in Britain definitely has a dated ring to it. (P.S. The "leisurely" argument has got long enough that it should be moved elsewhere.) Equinox 01:35, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

son (German)[edit]

Should son include the meanings "1. (colloquial; singular only) contraction of so ein, alternative form of so'n; 2. (colloquial; in plural) such", that is should the second sense from sone be moved? And should there be an inflection table like this (based on the one from so'n)?

Case Singular Plural
m f n
Nominative son sone son sone
Genitive sones soner sones soner
Dative sonem soner sonem sonen
Accusative sonen, son sone son sone


  • If certain forms (like genitive) are doubtful, there could be an RFV and either doubtful forms get attested, or replaced by — or marked as not attested (e.g. if the unattested forms are at least mentioned in linguistic papers).
  • It could be that so'n has the plural so'ne (and "so 'n" might have "so 'ne"), but for the plural pronoun meaning such that spelling seems to be inferior as the plural pronoun is no proper contraction.

- 13:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

en (French)[edit]

This entry is listed under "Pronoun":

  1. Adverbial preposition indicating movement away from a place already mentioned.
    Est-ce qu'elle vient de Barcelone ? Oui, elle en vient.
    Does she come from Barcelona? Yes, she does.

I don't see how an "Adverbial preposition" can be a pronoun, but I leave it up to those whose French is better than mine to determine what, if anything, should be done with this. Mihia (talk) 14:06, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

It isn't a preposition at all, but it is adverbial. I'd just call it an adverb rather than a pronoun. It does have a certain pronominalness about it, but then so do adverbs like here and then. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 20:51, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Well, they are all pro-forms (hence, I’d guess, the ‘pronominalness’); it’s just that they’re pro-adverbs rather than pronouns, and pro-adverbs usually don’t get analyzed as constituting a separate part of speech from other adverbs. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 23:20, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
If a pronoun is a pro-form that stands in for a noun phrase and a pro-verb is a pro-form that stands in for a verb phrase, then en and y are "pro-prepositions" since they stand in for prepositional phrases. I would say that the usual term for "pro-preposition" is adverb; in other words, adverbs are nothing more than pro-forms that stand in for prepositional phrases. This is true even of adverbs that don't feel "pronominal" such as computationally, which is just a substitute for the prepositional phrase "in a computational manner". At any rate, while I understand that y and en are called pronouns in French-language pedagogy, I don't think that's linguistically accurate. What they are is adverbs. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 09:28, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
en can usually be translated 'thereof' or 'therefrom'; what do we call those words? —Tamfang (talk) 09:08, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Adding 毆打 to tbe "compounds" section of [edit]

I am afraid I do not how to do it properly, but I think 毆打 should be a "Derived word" of . --Backinstadiums (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

The entry has been expanded now. Wyang (talk) 15:32, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

motor (again)[edit]

At motor:


motor (not comparable)

  1. (biology) describing neurons that create the ability to move
    She has excellent motor skills.

Is this an adjective? Mihia (talk) 20:31, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't think so:
  • "Those are very motor neurons you've got there."
  • "Those neurons are motor."
  • "Those are the most motor (motorest) neurons I've ever seen."
It would be wonderful if we could get someone to clean up all of the similarly erroneous adjective sections. DCDuring (talk) 20:59, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
OTOH some dictionaries have several adjective definitions for motor, apparently based on adjective usage that does not correspond semantically to any noun usage. See motor at OneLook Dictionary Search, eg, MWOnline. DCDuring (talk) 21:07, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Specifically, MWOnline has "1c : of, relating to, concerned with, or involving muscular movement" motor areas of the brain". The also have an entry for motor neuron. DCDuring (talk) 21:09, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Surprisingly enough Oxford (listed in the refs under One Look) treats motor as an adjective, albeit attributive and not comparable.
1British [attributive] Driven by a motor.
‘a motor van’
1.1 Relating to motor vehicles.
‘motor insurance’
2 [attributive] Giving or producing motion or action.
‘demand is the principle motor force governing economic activity’
2.1 Physiology: Relating to muscular movement or the nerves activating it.
‘the motor functions of each hand’
What else can I say? DonnanZ (talk) 15:20, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
To me the "motor" in "motor skills" is an adjective, even though it's not comparable etc., just because I can't imagine a realistic sentence where it would stand alone as a noun. Equinox 17:54, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
For what it's worth, French moteur in that sense is an adjective as well (definitely not a noun!), even though it's not comparable, etc. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:00, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm sure that it is an adjective. But the definition is wrong - "motor insurance" has nothing to do with neurons. I'll see if I can improve it. SemperBlotto (talk) 05:47, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Oxford Dictionaries notwithstanding, I cannot agree that "motor" is an adjective in "motor insurance". Mihia (talk) 01:02, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
I can see Oxford's angle, motor trade is another one which may be a contraction of "motor vehicle trade". It doesn't actually have a motor, but handles the sale and repair of motor vehicles and sale of parts. Equally, motor insurance could be a contraction of "motor vehicle insurance". DonnanZ (talk) 10:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
In (neuro)physiological contexts, motor *is* an attributive adjective formed from a specific sense of motor borrowed directly from Latin, i.e. 'that which causes to move; mover' (agent noun of moto#Latin, frequentative of moveo#Latin). So, motor function, motor disease, motor pathway, motor neuron, "excellent motor functions" are all intended in this sense. As for automobiles, it might need some tweaking. Moogsi (talk) 18:28, 13 December 2017 (UTC)


I do not know how exactly to write the entry for "lyrata". I have come to understand the meaning of "lyrata" (please read this section: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Glossary_of_leaf_morphology&oldid=814744686#lyrata); I would appreciate it if someone would write and create the page for "lyrata". --NoToleranceForIntolerance (talk) 17:52, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

I see no evidence on Google Books for use in English. I have created the entry for the Latin inflected form. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:57, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Lyrate and lyreleaf are corresponding English words. DCDuring (talk) 22:43, 11 December 2017 (UTC)


Anyone want to deal with this trainwreck? [9] Equinox 19:34, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

@Equinox: Mahagaja posted about it in the GP. As it's a technical issue, I'm not sure how this is relevant to the TR. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:53, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
I had always assumed that it was a verb. But is it used outside of the one (quite famous) book? SemperBlotto (talk) 05:44, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Why don't you look at the entry and see? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 10:11, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
In Watership Down itself I think it is a verb, but in the other works that use it without reference to WD it always seems to be a noun. In all the quotes, it's preceded by a preposition, either on silflay, at silflay, or to silflay (in the 2011 quote it could theoretically be a verb, I suppose, but not in the other three quotes). At any rate, none of this solves the problem that {{der}} seems to think that art-lap is simultaneously both a language and not a language. (Schrödinger's language?) —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:54, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

beat to[edit]

Shouldn't this be moved to beat to it? Cf. [10], [11], [12]. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:06, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

But you can have a full noun in place of it, e.g. "John beat me to the restaurant". —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:56, 11 December 2017 (UTC)


Should this entry exist? Isn't this the same word as đại, but capitalized because it's in a proper noun? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 20:21, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Wyang (talk) 15:41, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

big toe[edit]

Is this informal, slightly informal, totally standard? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:18, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I think that the abundant use of the term found at Google Scholar suggests that it is standard. This Google N-gram search shows that it is at present more common than its synonyms great toe (formerly much more common) and hallux. DCDuring (talk) 22:34, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I suspect that the frequency shift comes from L2 speakers. These are more likely to use “big” and not to use “great” in the size sense (but learners learn to use “great” as “awesome”, “dope”). And yeah, maybe the same applies to children, so it would be slightly informal. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 06:07, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't think it's accurate to say thaat applies mainly to learners.... I'm pretty sure most native speakers would typically opt for "big" over "great", and this has been the case for several decades, if not the last three quarters of a century at least. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 17:59, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
In the UK this is totally standard. I have never heard any other form of the term. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:13, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
In the US, I'd never heard "great toe". I suspect that it lingers in book-based frequency data because of reprints of earlier works. DCDuring (talk) 06:41, 12 December 2017 (UTC)


Could someone check if the recent IP contributions make sense? @Lirafafrod? --Barytonesis (talk) 15:07, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

  • Nah, it's crap. Good revert, BT --Lirafafrod (talk) 23:20, 13 December 2017 (UTC)


The plurals are much too distracting. Any idea for improvement? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:51, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

I guess we could remove those that are identical to the top one, adding perhaps "unless otherwise specified" to the already present "plural media or mediums" on the quote-unquote title before sense 1. Note that I suggest removing "media or mediums", not "mediums or media", because the order, I guess, suggests which one is more commonly employed for each sense. MGorrone (talk) 21:14, 12 December 2017 (UTC)


The second quotation uses hinstellen instead of hinsetzen. Matt Zjack (talk) 20:42, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Fixed. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 21:21, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

"An Ancient translation"?[edit]

I just looked for ἀνία and noticed that the "no results" window displayed "ἀνία is an Ancient translation of the word boredom ("state of being bored").". Err, what? "an Ancient translation"? Surely you mean "Ancient Greek" right? What can be done about this? MGorrone (talk) 21:11, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Good catch. I don't think it's going to be easy to fix, because it's a feature of MediaWiki:Gadget-TranslationAdder.js. It's somehow related to the problem above. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:20, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
On the contrary, it was easy to fix. The translation table at boredom was using the label "Ancient:" instead of "Ancient Greek:", that's all. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 21:22, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: Yes, but you'll have to fix that manually everytime. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:25, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
I think Ancient Greek should not be listed under Greek in translations. What are we saying by doing this? This behavior is controlled in MediaWiki:Gadget-TranslationAdder-Data.js by the way. DTLHS (talk) 05:00, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
People call both Ancient Greek and Modern Greek Greek. If someone wants to find an Ancient Greek translation in the Translations section, he looks for Greek in the alphabetical order. By doing this, we are acknowledging that people call Greek of any epoch Greek. —Stephen (Talk) 06:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
If we would really acknowledge that, we wouldn't name any specific type of Greek simply Greek but we would sort it like this:
  • Greek:
    • Ancient Greek: {{t|grc|}}
    • Modern Greek: {{t|el|}}
To be more informative and (in some ways) more user-friendly, there could be other types of Greek like this:
  • Greek:
    • Mycenaean Greek: {{t|gmy|}}
    • Ancient Greek:
      • Homeric: {{t|grc|}}
      • Attic: {{t|grc|}}
      • Koine: {{t|grc|}}
      • [other dialects]
    • Middle Greek: {{t|grc|}}
    • Modern Greek:
      • Katharevousa: {{t|el|}}
      • Demotic: {{t|el|}}
Tsakonian (tsd) and other modern Greek languages might be listed under Greek too. - 01:31, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone know what the above-mentioned message in the search results is generated by? Maybe the script or whatever it is could automatically determine that the language name is "Ancient Greek". — Eru·tuon 07:31, 13 December 2017 (UTC)


Wondering if þrīfeald should be moved to þrifeald since B&T does not show þrī, but it shows þri. Should this ī to i worry us? Anglish4699 (talk) 05:24, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Old English really didn't use macrons, macrons are added today to indicate probable vowel lengths. As such, there would be no need to "move" the entry, as the entry title would remain the same. I think that there is sufficient reason to keep the vowel long though, since the word is made up of þrī + -feald. We could show one or the other as an alternative form though Leasnam (talk) 16:29, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
B&T also shows the OFS and OHG with a short vowel, which should be long...my experience with B&T (and don't get me wrong, I love em !) is that you have to be careful about the many typos and other "mistakes" they have :\ Leasnam (talk) 16:39, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
From a PIE standpoint, there's three possible grades, *trey-, *troy- and *tri-. The first and third of these would become *þrī- and *þri- respectively. —Rua (mew) 17:04, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
@Rua, do you think this word was likely formed in PIE ? and, would it have to be to show a reflex of *tri- ? Leasnam (talk) 00:44, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Ancient Greek and Latin diphthongs[edit]

In Ancient Greek does the pronunciation of "ai" in "-ái̯.os" differ from that of "ai" in "-aí̯.aː" or are they "áios" "áiā" (or "áj.jos" "áj.jā"?)?

And how differs it from Latin "-ae̯.us"? In sound examples here I hear "aius" (or "aj.jus"?)...

As in Latin [-ae̯.ʊs] Ancient Greek pronunciation should show this kind of spelling (some say [-aĵ.jos]) and in both languages there should be pronunciation for all genders...

Thank you. -GuitarDudeness (talk) 18:52, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Which sound examples? Many of the Latin sound files are by @EncycloPetey, and reflect a heavy American accent. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:19, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Sources I relied upon claim [aɪ.jʊs] or [aɪ.jus], which is what I attempted to record. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:24, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
But particularly "-ái̯.os" and "-aí̯.aː" should thus differ? One falling, other rising?
And, @EncycloPetey, whence did you get that eʁupajjus?? So saying [aɪ.jʊs] or [aɪ.jus] you are not even pronouncing what is spelled on the page, [ae̯.ʊs]... -GuitarDudeness (talk) 23:40, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
If you look at the edit history, you will see that someone changed the IPA after the audio was recorded. --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:42, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
In Ancient Greek does the pronunciation of "ai" in "-ái̯.os" differ from that of "ai" in "-aí̯.aː" or are they "áios" "áiā" (or "áj.jos" "áj.jā"?)? -GuitarDudeness (talk) 23:22, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Presumably, yes, there was a difference, -αῖος should have a high pitch from the onset which falls back to the baseline, while -αία starts with a low pitch that rises reaches its peak somewhere around [i], perhaps lingering on α for a bit, IIRC some classical author described the pitch difference as a perfect fifth. If you want to play around with this stuff I suggest downloading Praat, recording yourself and studying the pitch contours.
Latin had dynamic stress which means that -ae- should have greater loudness than other syllables, you can check this in Praat too, but you probably don't need to since it's the same as accenting a syllable in English which you probably can do already.
There was probably some heightened loudness following a Greek accent and maybe some pitch changes on Latin stressed syllables, but you shouldn't worry too much about these, the important distinction was pitch and loudness respectively.
I am incredulous of the acoustical or the articulatory reality of the [j/i/i̯] distinction as well as syllabification, these seem like phonemic (rather than phonetic) constructs, so I'm not sure what exactly is claimed about the sound files here.
Crom daba (talk) 16:04, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
That would be rational... Thank you and for those links. -GuitarDudeness (talk) 13:09, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Wiktionary - Personnel[edit]

I see that the Wiktionary entry for 'personnel' indicates that it is not a countable noun. Other dictionaries in some of their examples use 'personnel' as a countable noun. Eg., Miriam-Webster's examples include; "They've reduced the number of personnel working on the project".

Would be interested to hear others' views/opinions. Neils51 (talk) 23:17, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

That's not an example of it being countable. Please read Wikipedia's entry count noun so you understand what is going on. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:18, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
But you can say "two personnel" where you can't say "two furniture" or "two rice". Equinox 23:36, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Maybe you (UK) can, but I (US) can't. DCDuring (talk) 01:15, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
You're NY, aren't you? Crappy wikitext breaks my links. But search Google for "many personnel" site:.ny.us. Equinox 01:33, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
My personnel opinion is that "many personnel" is ugly as sin. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:E0CA:478D:C52:F196 22:48, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
I speak neither Bureaucrat nor HR, though some argue that these and English are mutually intelligible. DCDuring (talk) 01:40, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Well, you seem to be speaking No True Scottish... Equinox 03:17, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Och, aye!   (Sorry, couldn't resist! :) ) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:09, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm just skeptical about the breadth of the usage in the US. It's definitely not much used in my idiolect.
Here is some discussion of the grammatical number of personnel.
Personnel does seem to require a plural verb in English, at least in American English. How do we show that? (It wouldn't seem to be covered by how we use {{en-plural noun}}.) DCDuring (talk) 17:29, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Interesting point -- personnel does appear to be a default-plural noun that has no singular form. Phrases like “a personnel” or “the personnel goes” just sound wrong. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:45, 15 December 2017 (UTC)


Does this need cleanup? The definitions for artificial geysers seem dated or tendentious to me. Ie, what about electric geysers and solar geysers. (I'd never heard of [pleonasm alert] "hot-water heaters" being called geysers, so I have no intuition to work on the entry myself.) DCDuring (talk) 01:12, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

  • It looks OK to me. In the UK it is a very old-fashioned word for device that produces hot water on demand in a bathroom. I haven't heard it used since the 1960s or before. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:05, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
I remember the term, and I can picture one in my mind. I don't think they would pass present gas safety laws as they didn't have a flue. DonnanZ (talk) 09:37, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Third definition: are we talking of a water boiler or a water heater? --Hekaheka (talk) 10:36, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
I think it is a water heater for bathing, showering etc.
A geyser wouldn't seem to be inherently dangerous, unless we are limiting discussion to unflued, badly plumbed installations. Using solar geyser and electric geyser via Google, I can find current commercial sites, but many of the top hits are in Africa and Asia. DCDuring (talk) 16:38, 14 December 2017 (UTC)


We currently have translation tables to two senses of sign that obviously have been deleted from the definitions:

  1. meaningful gesture
  2. any of several specialized non-alphabetic symbols

Should we re-enter these definitions or delete the translations? --Hekaheka (talk) 10:30, 14 December 2017 (UTC)


There is a usage note at -en which states: Currently not very productive (in fact, it is restricted to monosyllabic bases which end in an obstruent). This tends to give it a humorous effect in recent coinages, such as embiggen. First off, what do we mean when we label something as "humorous". Does it imply that the effect is to make one laugh (showing humour) ? Or is it merely a way to disparage an item because one has a bias to it, and they want to ear-mark it negatively so that it doesn't get used seriously ? As far as productivity, I disagree. Words like roughen are not, in my opinion, "humorous" or to be taken lightly at all. Leasnam (talk) 16:09, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

I think this "humorous" label belongs at embiggen (--clearly tri-syllabic, and a word you will probably never hear me use !), not at the very serious suffix -en Leasnam (talk) 16:11, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
I just don't think any of the usage note, as is, is useful to the use of the suffix. The meanings already provided by the definitions are fitting, valid, and really all that are needed. Leasnam (talk) 16:14, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
"Roughen" is clearly not humorous, but is that really a very new coinage? What "-en" verb that doesn't exist could we make up today, that wouldn't sound silly? Equinox 16:24, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Does it matter though if it's an existing -en word or new ? The usage applies to all -en words, not only recently created ones. Still, if one said: I removed it from the heat to coolen it before I serve it. that doesn't sound silly to me. ("embiggen" though does sound silly, because embig sounds funny. biggen though, sounds alright.) (btw, coolen is not an English word AFAICT, but maybe should be ?) Leasnam (talk) 16:41, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm just trying to think of recent/new adjectives to English...all I'm coming up with are slang adjectives, like wack > wacken; hype > hypen, and maybe a noun bling > blingen; but those sound informal not due to the suffix but due to the root. The stem determines the label, not the suffix. There's nothing "informal" or "humorous" about -en, a word suffixed with -en inherits the status of whatever word it's appended to Leasnam (talk) 16:48, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Okay, here's one: the slang adjective boss (excellent, cool, of high quality). If we say: I gave him an edgier haircut to bossen his new look, does that sound at all weird ? Leasnam (talk) 17:01, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Okay, strike that if you will, I found a real one: the adjective crass. To crassen would mean "to make (one) crass". What's wrong with that ? Leasnam (talk) 17:30, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Actually, there is an actual isolated use of crassened in John Dos Passos 1921 Three Soldiers: "In the deserted tea room, among the dismal upturned chairs, his crassened fingers moved stiffly over the keys.", but I cannot find enough of this verb to warrant entry creation :( ...not yet! ;) Leasnam (talk) 18:24, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
And here is a real world example: densen (to make/become dense), which we do not have, but which I will shortly be adding. Leasnam (talk) 17:37, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
I've added densen, basen, cruden, truthen, tarten, spicen, and also bleaken (to become bleak). There is also ruden, nicen, and laten. This suffix is still productive, and not at all humorous. I motion we remove the usage note as incorrect, being based solely on a single lone (ridiculous) example: embiggen, which is not at all indicative of the suffix as a whole. Leasnam (talk) 18:02, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Shouldn't we mark these with (rare) or something? They sound pretty weird to me, although as a L2 speaker maybe I don't get a say in this. But if I was teaching foreigners English, I would certainly correct densen or ruden as mistakes.
They're rare because most of them are rather new. They can also probably be considered non-standard at this point (except for maybe densen due to a lot of hits I got for densening)...but the call-out above was to supply recent creations that didn't evoke the same cringing that embiggen does. Leasnam (talk) 18:46, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Humor is of course context sensitive but the idea here is to portray the dearth of eloquence in which a person cannot remember enlarge or strengthen and so has to resort to building new words (these exist, but they're new to me and probably most other speakers) such as embiggen or strongen to express themselves. Think Buffy the Vampire slayer or Homer Simpson. I guess it's also the same effect as newspeak from 1984, only used for humorous purposes.
Of course you could do this with any suffix like hardity or strongness, but since these are more productive it doesn't sound as funny. Crom daba (talk) 18:18, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
@Crom daba, Thank you for that expanation ! embiggen and strongen definitely deserve those labels in that case. However, I do not feel that -en does. I hope I have adequately demonstrated that the label "humorous" should be applied on a term by term basis, and not to this suffix as a whole; with which the vast majority of words (soften, gladden, madden, whiten, brighten, smarten, etc.) would be in appropriate for... Leasnam (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
I guess, it should be noted that it can be odd and non-standard though. Crom daba (talk) 19:14, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
@Crom daba, but why ? That's true of all words derived from affixes...why single this one out ? Does super- need a label because you can derive supercalifragilisticexpialidocious from it ?, which, btw, isn't labelled humouros and perhaps should be ? Leasnam (talk) 19:20, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
I'd say "for didactic purposes" but I guess teaching language learners is not our responsibility. Crom daba (talk) 20:46, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Well, I don't think that -en is humorous or non-serious at all in the majority of words where it is found. It certainly does not change a serious-sounding word into a humorous sounding one, simply by being added to it. You can't get more didactic than that. Leasnam (talk) 21:58, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
What point are you trying to make, exactly? Nobody's trying to "disparage" the suffix -en; the only purpose of that usage note is to say that words formed with this suffix sound rather weird/funny (as in "funny smell"). Are you seriously arguing that densen, basen, cruden, truthen, tarten and spicen is perfectly standard English? --2A02:2788:A4:F44:E0CA:478D:C52:F196 22:15, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
No, I am arguing that soften, harden, lighten, flatten, steepen, blacken, heighten, lengthen, loosen, tighten, etc, etc, etc are perfectly standard English and DON'T sound funny at all. I'm not comfortable having a usage note on an entry just because ONE or FEW words with it may sound "funny". Leasnam (talk) 22:54, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
@Leasnam I think the IP has a point, the fact is it's no longer productive except humorously. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 22:18, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
That isn't true. It's already used for almost all monosyllabic adjectives that it CAN'T be productive anymore...our language is saturated already with this suffix. Leasnam (talk) 22:54, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
I agree that it is not a regularly productive suffix anymore, and I think it's hard to imagine someone seriously saying something like "Shutten the door, please" or "I don't like to hurten people" or "these memes need to be dankened." In the first two examples, at least, the root words are certainly not themselves humourous. I think it's worth including something in the usage note along the lines of "given that this suffix is no longer very productive, it can have a humorous effect when affixed to certain adjectives." Andrew Sheedy (talk) 22:36, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Or better yet, maybe just use the "humorous" note on those words which actually have it and are used that way ? Why spoil the barrel for a few rotten apples ? Leasnam (talk) 23:33, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
With all respect, Andrew Sheedy, I think you're confusing the suffix in question. This is the specific suffix used to convert Adjectives into verbs with the sense of "to make or give a specific quality to", as in soft > soften "to make soft". It can also sometime be used with nouns with the same force: strength > strengthen Leasnam (talk) 22:58, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
That is exactly the sense I am referring to, and I even followed the rule of using monosyllabic adjectives ending in obstruents as a base. See hurt, shut, and dank, all of which have adjective forms, and all of which end in obstruents (unless I've got my terminology mixed up). The point is that it's an unusal suffix which can often be used to humorous effect. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 23:19, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
But all suffixes can be used to humorous effect, can't they ? And all words too...are we to add usage examples for everything ? Leasnam (talk) 23:30, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
It's not normally (if ever) appended to past participle adjective like hurt and shut. Never has been Leasnam (talk) 23:21, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
@Andrew Sheedy: and danken is a word. I will add it too Leasnam (talk) 23:23, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough. It should still be noted that the suffix has limited productivity. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 23:32, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
I have to say I'm finding this fascinating. "Bleaken" and "densen" wouldn't raise my eyebrow in literature (maybe in conversation); some of the others ("truthen"?) seem bizarre. But it's hard to separate neophobia from genuine weirdness. Equinox 18:57, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
@Equinox, I never meant to imply that truthen wasn't a little odd; but as you say, it may just be that we're not used to hearing it. Structurally though, it's no different from strengthen, which might sound just as "funny" if we weren't already so accustomed to it. blonden (to make or turn blond) doesn't strike me as weird though, just somewhat unfamiliar. Leasnam (talk) 20:30, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
IMO though, embiggen is rather "weird"...maybe because it's not a natural/organic creation, but rather a forced/conscious creation aimed at ousting or displacing another word or words ;) For the record, I am not necessarily a huge fan of these types of creations, unless they're exceptionally outstanding (which most are not) Leasnam (talk) 20:34, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
I would like to see some recent (say, post 1980) coinages applying -en in the phonetically limited range of stems for which there are older coinages. Are they humorous? "Embiggen" is a poor example, as it also requires a prefix.
I found some discussion of 19th century coinages (densen/densening and danken/dankening) that didn't find them humorous. safen/safening is fairly common in the discussion of agricultural biocides, where it is seems specialized to mean "to protect against the bad effects of biocides, usually on economic crops". I don't find that humorous, except in the context of this particular discussion. DCDuring (talk) 21:52, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Southwestern Fars additions[edit]

I'm not sure whether this should be here or under vandalism, but Eeranee (talkcontribs) has been adding Southwestern Fars entries recently, including many adjectives using {{fay-adj}}, a template generating a module error as it tries to reference the nonexistent module MOD:fay-adj. I have not the capacity to judge these entries on their merit, but someone should definitely clean up or delete them. Whatever the choice, these entries should be checked and the module error fixed. Thanks! —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 03:13, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Fixed. DTLHS (talk) 03:16, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
@DTLHS: Thanks! Anything on the actual entries? —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 03:33, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
@JohnC5: Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits § Renaming fay. Seems to be a careful user. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 04:25, 15 December 2017 (UTC)


RDA has "(rare, Avatar) Resources Development Administration; a large corporation from 2009 movie Avatar." as one sense, shouldn't Avatar's RDA need to be referenced in a non-avatar context? --Rasptr (talk) 12:19, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Navajo names for (West) Virginia[edit]

@Stephen G. Brown and anyone else in a position to chime in: we have entries for Navajo Eʼeʼaahjí Bijiniyah hahoodzo (West Viriginia) (without an acute accent on the second vowel of the second word) and Bijíniyah hahoodzo (Virginia) (with an acute accent on the second vowel of the first word). Is that actually right, or should the two words for "Virginia" be the same? —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 15:19, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

I think that's just the placing of pitch accent on the whole phrase. Eʼeʼaahjí has the accent for the first one. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 16:11, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Corrected, Navajo Eʼeʼaahjí Bijíniyah Hahoodzo and Bijíniyah Hahoodzo. In Marvin Yellowhair's The New Oxford Picture Dictionary, Yellowhair spells the translations for Virginia and West Virginia with different tones. Both should have the same tones. —Stephen (Talk) 19:33, 15 December 2017 (UTC)


The page shows a Cantonese pronunciation. Is this word used in Cantonese? @Justinrleung, Suzukaze-c, Wyang. Dokurrat (talk) 19:15, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

@Dokurrat: Pretty sure @Mar vin kaiser got it from Pleco, which has Cantonese for all entries in the Pleco Basic Chinese-English Dictionary. It's definitely not used in the vernacular, and I don't think it's used in 書面語书面语 (shūmiànyǔ). I'm not sure if we should keep the Cantonese pronunciation. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 21:17, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
I think this is too colloquial Mandarin to be literary Cantonese. Wyang (talk) 03:45, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang: I agree. Erhua-ed words are generally to colloquial. The exception might be some really common erhua-ed words like 那兒 and 一點兒. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 04:34, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

AFChick, AFCness, AFCdom[edit]

More from the incel obsessive. But is incel a true synonym for "AFC" (average frustrated chump)? Equinox 19:48, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Seems to be less extreme than incel, here's the definition from "The Mystery method":
"An armchair pickup artist who is actually just a nice guy with a tendency to place women on a pedestal, only to have them walk all over him. Rarely closes his targets."
Crom daba (talk) 20:56, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
That doesn't answer your question, but I don't think I've ever seen "incel" used outside the manosphere, while "AFC" is standard pick-up community jargon. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:00, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
I thought manosphere is a catch-all for any sexual "red-pilling" community including PUA. Crom daba (talk) 21:18, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
@Crom daba: Mh, the two communities are obviously related, but I wouldn't really make either a subset of the other. If anything, I'd say a manosphere guy will be familiar with all the PUA lingo (I'm not entirely sure, though), while the reverse is not true. PUA seems more "mainstream" to me. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 16:26, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
"Closing targets", ewww. Social relationships shouldn't be marketing (says an old man who doesn't use Twitter). Anyway, yeah, my understanding was that incel never got any sex in his life, but AFC just didn't get as much as he wanted. Equinox 19:02, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

keep abreast[edit]

Can you "keep someone (else) abreast" (i.e. "keep informed"), or can you only "keep <yourself> abreast"? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:10, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

You normally just "keep abreast": "I kept abreast of developments". But yes, "kept him abreast" has enormous numbers of hits in GBooks. Equinox 18:29, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
@Equinox: Ok, thanks. Do you think I could create keep abreast? Other dictionaries have it. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 23:28, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
In my experience it is very rare to hear abreast outside of keep abreast, so probably, yeah. Equinox 23:31, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
I do hear it in "three abreast", "four abreast", etc. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 08:07, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
In both the figurative and more literal/concrete senses be, stay, get, and bring are used with abreast. I'd still say that keep abreast warrants a full entry. The others might warrant redirects to [[abreast]] unless there are other references that have full entries for them, in which case I'd favor full entries. DCDuring (talk) 15:21, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Pinyin needed[edit]

The last point in https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%9A%84#Usage_notes needs pinyin for the terms 白勺的, 雙人得, 土也地. --Backinstadiums (talk) 19:18, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

on the telephone[edit]

I've added an entry for on the telephone something that Merriam-Webster has an entry for https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/on%20the%20telephone. I'd say that sense 2 "Connected to a telephone system." "the percentage of households on the telephone" is definitely not SOP and it is apparently specific to British English. Voortle (talk) 05:51, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

main page[edit]

I know this might be radically opposed by some, but couldn't this term merit an entry rather than a mainspace redirect to Wiktionary:Main Page? I think main page in this case could be at least a borderline case of non-SOP, but see how home page also lists start page as a synonym, which looks sort of SOP-ish to me (though I can see why one would say it's not). The main reason I think it could be dictionary material is because it is a set phrase, especially in the sense of wikis. Almost all wikis I've seen call their home page a "main page" rather than a home page or a front page. I also find it strange how it's usually capitalized.

Anyway, here's what an entry could look like:

: ''For Wiktionary's main page, see [[Wiktionary:Main Page]].''




# {{lb|en|especially|wiki}} {{synonym of|home page|lang=en}}


# {{lb|en|Internet}} {{def|The [[home page]] of a [[wiki]].}}


# {{lb|en|Internet}} {{def|A [[home page]], especially of a [[wiki]].}}

The whole concept of how it's called a "main page" always confused me. That's particularly why an entry for main page would interest me. I mean "home page" is a magnitude more common; how come they invented "main page"? It might help to include an etymology section to explain when the term was first used and why, rather than something else like home page. Anyway, this seems almost exclusive to wikis, so in that sense it might not be SOP. What do you guys think? PseudoSkull (talk) 06:22, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Mustard (British slang)[edit]

I draw your attention to the discussion page for mustard regarding British slang usage and my very limited exposure to it as a Canadian. I was seeking more information here. I only add where I have certainty, but I don't. Thanks for your attention. ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 06:39, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

pot pie[edit]

In my dialect at least, Midwestern American English, a pot pie refers almost exclusively to a savory pie, with the word 'pot' distinguishing it from a sweet pie. Is this just my dialect, or should the definition be altered? It would be interesting to hear from some British or Australian speakers. Nemoanon (talk) 07:00, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

In discussion with British friends, I've discovered that the word "pie" unmodified is generally assumed by Brits to refer to a savory pie and by Americans to refer to a sweet pie. It's therefore unlikely that they would use pot pie to mean any savory pie of any size, since pie alone already means that to them. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 16:27, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
Canadian usage, which is often similar to that of Midwestern America, follows what you describe. I would never call a sweet pie a "pot pie." Andrew Sheedy (talk) 18:53, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

circle of violence[edit]

I'm not sure whether it's worth an entry, it seems to be different from a vicious circle, although I find references to a "vicious circle of violence". I assume it involves tit for tat, one violent action is replied to with another. DonnanZ (talk) 15:51, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

I think it's more about a person who suffered violence as a child becoming violent as an adult; see Cycle of violence. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 16:25, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, so "cycle of violence" and "circle of violence" are synonyms, more or less. What about a circle (or cycle) of violence in a not-too-peaceful neighbourhood? These don't always happen within families (thinking of Belfast and other trouble spots). DonnanZ (talk) 16:41, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
Not every cliche is an entryworthy idiom. DCDuring (talk) 16:55, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
Whether it's entry-worthy or not it's still worth asking. Funnily enough there is a novel named Cycle of Violence. DonnanZ (talk) 17:00, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't think it's entry-worthy. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:31, 18 December 2017 (UTC)