User talk:OweOwnAwe

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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! Vininn126 (talk) 11:07, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Brazilian pronunciation spellings like 'acihma' and 'apêhnas'

Why are you adding these? E.g. 'acihma', 'alumíhnio', 'aluhno', 'apêhnas', 'Atêhnas', 'biquíhni', 'blasfêhmya', 'cêhna', 'ciclôhne', 'sihma' (for cima), and several others. They contradict explicit statements made by various authors that stressed vowels are nasalized in Brazil before nasal consonants. Please do not add them; you're making extra work for me, who will have to undo them all. Benwing2 (talk) 00:27, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

As a native Brazilian Portuguese speaker myself, I sincerely think these pronunciations with nasal vowels do not represent how these words are pronounced, at least not phonemically, by most speakers. These vowels are usually nasalized in this position only in some regions, such as Bahia. Outside of those regions, a few speakers might nasalize it, and when they do, it is in a very subtle way, definitely not phonemically. The word "acima" is pronounced /aˈsi.mɐ/, and "biquíni" is definitely pronounced /biˈki.ni/. A similar case occurs with the pronunciation of words such as "sério", only transcribed as /ˈsɛ.ɾi.u/, when it is clearly pronounced [ˈsɛ.ɾju] in normal speech.

I apologize for changing these entries without due consent, but I do not agree with the required pronunciations. OweOwnAwe (talk) 02:10, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Are you sure you're not confusing stressed and unstressed positions? It is explicitly stated by Carlos Quicoli [1] (see p. 320) that in what he calls the "Official Dialect" of Brazilian Portuguese, all stressed vowels before nasals in words like 'fino', 'pena', 'fumo', 'goma' and 'grama' are nasalized. Nasalization of *unstressed* vowels before n/m + vowel is typical of Bahian speech (I know because I spent several months in Salvador) but not universal. This is explicitly noted by Quicoli in the footnote pp. 319-320, who refers to "a common dialect in São Paulo and Rio" where the pronunciation of 'banana' is [bʌ̃nʌ̃nʌ], whereas Quicoli's Official Dialect has [banʌ̃nʌ]. This is consistent with the way this module renders the pronunciation. Do you really say [bananʌ] in your speech with no nasal vowels? If so, I suspect this is a non-typical pronunciation. BTW the issue of 'sério' is completely different; the module does render /ˈsɛ.ɾi.u/ but that is only because I never figured out/implemented the proper rules for handling 'i' and 'u' in hiatus. You can see a long discussion called "hiatus" in Module talk:pt-pronunc where I asked about the rules regarding hiatus in various positions and got a very complex response; I didn't implement this because I couldn't figure out a relatively simple generalization of all the specific cases. If you can explain to me what the rules ought to be, I can implement them. Benwing2 (talk) 02:33, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

BTW the definition of "Official Dialect" (bottom of second page) is "the dialect used in national broadcasts and in educated speech and writings". Benwing2 (talk) 02:39, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

See also the Wikipedia entry on Brazilian Portuguese:

Another difference between Northern/Northeastern dialects and Southern/Southeastern ones is the pattern of nasalization of vowels before ⟨m⟩ and ⟨n⟩. In all dialects and all syllables, orthographic ⟨m⟩ or ⟨n⟩ followed by another consonant represents nasalization of the preceding vowel. But when the ⟨m⟩ or ⟨n⟩ is syllable-initial (i.e. followed by a vowel), it represents nasalization only of a preceding stressed vowel in the South and Southeast, as compared to nasalization of any vowel, regardless of stress, in the Northeast and North. A famous example of this distinction is the word banana, which a Northeasterner would pronounce [bɐ̃ˈnɐ̃nɐ], while a Southerner would pronounce [baˈnɐ̃nɐ].

Benwing2 (talk) 02:45, 20 September 2022 (UTC)