Wiktionary:Tea room/2024/July

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← June 2024 · July 2024 · August 2024 → · (current)

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dunnarf

This had no headword template, so I added one, but I'm not 100% sure this is an adverb, since it's built on a verb phrase. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:05, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

At first glance it seems to function like an adverb, but it seems it can't replace really in phrases such as, "I can really see your point", which would more likely become, "I dunnarf see your point".

Can you call it a "contraction", like innit? —DIV 1.144.107.158 02:09, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

lowercase proper nouns in English, especially loans

strawberry generation is categorized as a proper noun, even though it's lowercase. It's perhaps better phrased as the strawberry generation. Would this be better if we keep it as a proper noun? Also, since it's a calque of Chinese 草莓族 (cǎoméizú), should that also be a proper noun, or are the rules different in Chinese due to the lack of a definite article? Appendix:English proper nouns mentions that proper nouns can be lowercase but gives no examples nor details on how they're defined. Sorry this isnt better written. Im just looking for advice since this is one word but there could be hundreds. —Soap— 10:09, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Not sure, but FWIW it spurred me to look up Millennial#Noun and millennial#Noun in case that provided insight. It didn't shed a lot of light: both are listed as "Noun", although even the lowercase entry is marked "Often capitalized". Perhaps this issue hasn't received a lot of attention previously? —DIV (1.145.103.0 02:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC))

infantilize

I don't see a difference between senses 1 and 2. PUC – 18:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

To cause to be vs to treat. WSJP also differentiates this. Vininn126 (talk) 19:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I think "treat" requires an animate treater, whereas "cause" does not, as the sole cite evidences. DCDuring (talk) 21:15, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

linear

• (mathematics) (of polynomials or polynomial equations)

  (of a polynomial) Having degree less than one; that is, being of the form $a_{1}x_{1}+a_{2}x_{2}+\cdots +a_{n}x_{n}$, where each $x_{i}$ is a variable and each $a_{i}$ is a coefficient. See also Linear polynomials on Wikipedia.Wikipedia

Listing this here for now just in case I am missing something stupid, but less than one? Really? Mihia (talk) 22:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I found this misleading definition in an online math dictionary that could point toward the error: "An equation in which the highest power of any variable is one." This suggests that degree of a linear equation is less than or equal to one.

In any event, I thought the only possibility is degree equal to one. DCDuring (talk) 01:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Degree 0 is also linear, I suppose, but any powers between 0 and 1 are not. Theknightwho (talk) 03:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that generally a linear equation has a degree of one. Negative powers are certainly don't produce a linear equation, and nor do non-integer powers. I am not sure about a degree of 0: it 'feels' like something that can be called linear; but, on the other hand, by the same logic would we be free to call an equation of degree 0 parabolic (which 'feels' very wrong)?! —DIV (1.145.103.0 02:47, 8 July 2024 (UTC))

Old English -sċiepe suffix

I'm skeptical of the normalising of this suffix to -sċiepe. The normalised form of Old English on Wiktionary seems to come from Don Ringe's derivations of Early West Saxon Old English forms, but even he predicts -sċipe (the most common form in actual EWS texts) as the outcome of Proto-Germanic *-skapiz, due to OE's low suffix stress causing <ie> to monopthongise (Ringe and Taylor (2014), pg. 245). I think it should be changed, since -sċiepe is not the expected normalisation (and it also occurs a grand total of one time in the actual OE corpus, according to the Helsinki DOEC). -TheSaltyBrushtail (talk) 22:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The normal outcome of -skapi is -sċepe and with breaking -sċiepe, then with merging, -sċype, then with unrounding -sċipe. -sċiepe is cleaner than both -sċype and -sċipe because -ie- shows clear descent from -a- where -y- and -i- do not. -sċiepe may not be the most commonly recorded form, but frequency is separate from normalisation Leasnam (talk) 02:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

pleat vs. plait

Is it me, or we list those two words as near-synonyms? Both entries include the senses "a braid" and "a fold (as of cloth)", but through direct Google search and dictionaries such as Cambridge, nowadays it seems pleat is mostly related to "a fold", and plait to "a braid". It's likely both words have been used interchangably in the past, but is it possible to create a "Usage notes" for both entries specifying which sense is more used now in each entry? [Saviourofthe] ୨୧ 23:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

inukshuk

We had had /ɪˈnʊkˌʃʊk/ as the pronunciation, and then had an audio file labelled as [ɪˈnukˌʃuk] (see edit history). If the latter pronunciation also exists, it should be on the IPA line, but since it's from Vealhurl I wanted to check whether it does exist, or if only /-ʊ-/ exists. - -sche (discuss) 16:33, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

This was also brought up on the talk page:

The spoken pronunciation does not tally with the transcription and is likely incorrect. Compare [1].

— Paul G (talk) 06:37, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, I'm Canadian and I've only ever heard /-ʊ-/.

— W.andrea (talk) 16:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

What's up with Vealhurl? Do they have a history of making incorrect pronunciations? — W.andrea (talk) 16:49, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Oxford only has /-ʊ-/ (see also Canadian Oxford), same for Dictionary.com and Collins. Also CBC Kids (arguably "i-NOOK-shooks" relies on the pronunciation of nook). — W.andrea (talk) 17:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Vealhurl is Wonderfool, who seems to like to guess when it comes to words they don't know. Benwing2 (talk) 21:05, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

chorear

This Spanish verb is listed with two definitions listed, from Argentina, Chile, and Peru.

It has a different meaning in Mexico (to tell exaggerated tales), and I am trying to add it, but editing is harder than I thought. I don't really do it. And I would like to add a link to the definition in the Diccionario del español de México

I am quite baffled by the way editing an entry works, but I am sure I could learn.

Is there a simple, easy, tutorial available?

Thanks,

AndyAxnot AndyAxnot (talk) 23:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi, @AndyAxnot. Welcome!

There is a tutorial at Wiktionary:Tutorial. You can find some other Help pages listed too. By the way, if, after referring to those pages, you are still stuck and need to request help generally (not on a specific word), you can also try the Information Desk.

Although it might not always be the perfect way of doing things, sometimes an expedient method is to find the code (markup) for a similar entry, copy & paste it, and then edit to suit. In fact, I guess you might have tried that technique already at chorear :-)

The code includes

# {{lb|es|Chile}} to [[bug]], to [[piss off]]

# {{lb|es|Mexico}} to [[tell exaggerated tales]]

Which renders as

2. (Chile) to bug, to piss off

3. (Mexico) to tell exaggerated tales

That is not a bad start, but notice the red colour of the link, which indicates that there is no existing entry for tell exaggerated tales. We could link to each word separately:

# {{lb|es|Mexico}} to [[tell]] [[exaggerated]] [[tales]]

3. (Mexico) to tell exaggerated tales

However, almost all readers should understand tell, so that link is probably more distracting than helpful. Probably the key word is exaggerated, so maybe the best would be

# {{lb|es|Mexico}} to tell [[exaggerated]] tales

3. (Mexico) to tell exaggerated tales

—DIV (1.145.103.0 03:01, 8 July 2024 (UTC))

DIV,

Thank you for the assistance and suggestions. I did in fact try to use the existing reference to el Diccionario de la lengua español. Not perfect but usable, I think.

I will try reading the available tutorials again. The first time through they made little sense to me. :-(

Thank you for your reply and help, I was hoping someone would leave a comment, and I very much appreciate your help!

----AndyAxnot AndyAxnot (talk) 03:32, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I left our welcome template on your talk page. It has links to all the general stuff. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:59, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Miriwoong coverbs

I do not know how to render verbs which need coverbs in Miriwoong a language from the Kimberley, Australia. For example the dictionary I am using gives me: bad coverb + GET put foot on something, stamp on something, and gives an example of usage: Yijibtha bad boowoonggoo Stamp on it properly. It is clear that the coverb bad needs to be used with the verb boowoongoo meaning get. (And I am also unsure as to how much of this I can use without breaching copyright) MargaretRDonald (talk) 00:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

don't start with me

In the meaning "don't start harassing/patronizing/etc. me". Where can this meaning be found? There's no entry for start with and no definition of start seems to match. Benwing2 (talk) 01:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

With me is just a normal PP. Not every preposition following an English verb becomes property of the verb. I have always interpreted the sentence as "Don't start (context-dependent noun) with me.", usually intended as a warning. DCDuring (talk) 02:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

After researching what you mean, as someone who does not speak English colloquially but rather academically, I come to the same conclusion as DCDuring. You could also say “don’t start in my presence”; the keyword here is don’t start, which I don’t know which sense it should be linked to via |id=. Given the coincidence with your edits to examples of {{+obj}}, I assume you also wonder whether transitive senses (broad definition) of start can have a complement through with as well as a direct object. “Bitch you shouldn't have started me” has the same meaning? Fay Freak (talk) 03:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Interesting; I think you're right about don't start. I suppose this would go under start as a negative polarity item, listed as normally accompanied by "with". I actually came across this trying to figure out the last meaning of the Portuguese verb vir, which is defined as "to bitch, to whine" with the example Não venha com essa and usually rendered "don't start with me" in Reverso. This meaning is hard or impossible to find in any dictionary and the expression (não) venha com essa seems to be an idiom, so I was wondering what other contexts this meaning occurs in in Portuguese. As for the hip-hop lyrics you reference (except maybe with a following participle, as in don't start me going = "don't get me going" = "don't rile me up"), I've never heard this used transitively; this may be part of AAVE usage, and I assume (but can't be sure) that it has the same meaning as "don't start with me". Benwing2 (talk) 04:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

It's an ordinary meaning of start. I don't think that we should be trying to cover elisions that haven't become separate meanings. In this case it is particularly inappropriate, as it is not a single word that is elided, but rather any kind of interaction that the speaker wants stopped. DCDuring (talk) 13:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Hard disagree with this: in this context, it carries one meaning and one meaning only. Theknightwho (talk) 03:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

This is what I found in dictionaries:

• {{R:GDoS}} has "don't (you) start" and {{R:OED2}} has "don't you start" (sense 12h) with non-gloss definitions, interpreting the phrase as expressing irritation by the repeating of statements that have been already made earlier
• meanwhile, {{R:Cambridge}} has the sense "to begin to complain or be annoying in some way" with the following usex: Don't start with me - we're not going and that's that!

I think these two are overlapping usages but with a different focus. The first one is more explicitly referring to a repetition of some earlier sentiment/criticism ("Don't bring this up again!"), while the second one implies a more general sense of exasperation ("Don't annoy me with that!"). I think don't start would hold water as a separate entry with one or more {{n-g}}'s in which its informal usage can be described. However, the verb can be found outside imperative sentences as well (e.g. [2]), so we might want to add an intransitive subsense to start, probably with a link to don't start. Einstein2 (talk) 15:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that this does seem worthy of a sense at start, at a minimum because of prepositionless "(don't) start me" type uses. I could accept viewing "Don't start [being argumentative]. We've been over this." as ellision as suggested above, but when you not only elide the object but replace it with a different object as in "don't start me", that seems like the kind of thing we normally have definition-lines for (am I wrong? can someone bring counterexamples to bear?), and at that point we can presumably word the definition such that it covers both don't start me and don't start (with | on | up with | up on) me type uses.
At a minimum, there are so many similar but different-meaning phrases here which confuse learners that we should make sure there are usexes with parenthetical glosses explaining the difference. In this WordReference forum thread where a user explains (don't) start with/on me as (don't) "start to be aggressive or argumentative towards [me]", someone was confusing don't start with me and don't start without me; online I can also find learners being confused by don't start on me [don't get argumentative towards me] vs don't start me on [don't get me to talking about that]. - -sche (discuss) 15:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I've also heard "don't start". This reminds me of "stop it", which seems to have the same object with a different verb. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Here's another notable example which appears relevant to this discussion:

1987, John Flansburgh, John Linnell (lyrics and music), “Don't Let's Start”, performed by They Might Be Giants:

But don't, don't, don't let's start / I've got a weak heart / And I don't get around how you get around

This usage, plus "don't you start", "don't start with me", etc. could be covered by an intransitive subsense of start meaning "to begin to speak or act annoyingly or confrontationally", along the lines suggested above. Voltaigne (talk) 17:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

But start up and start on are phrasal verbs in the usages you are talking about, unless there is much less reality to membership in Category:English phrasal verbs than we assign to it.

I'll bet start me in this sense is not common, much less so than start with me. Me could be replaced by any pronoun and many nouns, including inanimate ones: "Don't start a bunch of Yale alums on/about the Whiffenpoofs or Skull and Bones."

I think we risk adding to learner (and contributor) confusion rather than reducing it. If we knew what we wanted in a wikiPhrasebook, don't start with me would be a great entry there, being a useful colloquialism.

The learner confusion is the revenge of English speakers on those whose native languages inflect. DCDuring (talk) 16:24, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

We could have an entry for ‘don’t start’ which could make use of some of the senses of ‘start’ to be found at start off and the sense found in the phrase ‘don’t start with me’. Perhaps the definition of ‘don’t start’ should be ‘don’t start talking/laughing/crying/arguing’? Overlordnat1 (talk) 08:41, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The use is perhaps a subsense of def. 2 at start "(intransitive) To begin an activity." (As also def. 8: "To start one's periods (menstruation)."). But the enormous range of possible elided objects and adjuncts (like with me, with that, on that, about ...) suggests that we are trying to lexicalize what is an open set of possibilities in English, some of which are merely more frequent, not less SoP. DCDuring (talk) 15:16, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

No, it just means "don't start [doing sometihng negative]". It may have originated as an elision, but it's not parsed that way by speakers when used in colloquial language, and it can be defined with a non-gloss like "A warning not to start doing something negative.", which conveys how it is used and the contextual restrictions on when it can be used. Theknightwho (talk) 03:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I always thought it was due to elision of 'your shit' as in "Don't start ([your] shit) with me" Leasnam (talk) 04:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Portuguese dar para = "to put out"

(in the sexual sense) This is labeled as sometimes ditransitive. I take it this means it has a direct object along with para. Can anyone given an example of this where it maintains the same sense? Benwing2 (talk) 04:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Bayan Mod

Is the definition correct? Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:29, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

No. Bayan Mod (巴彦毛都苏木) is a sumu of Horqin Left Rear Banner, not of Alxa Left Banner. Voltaigne (talk) 15:36, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks- changed this from "sumu" to "location" in this edit: diff. See the maps and coordinates at Citations:Bayan Mod. Please ping me if anyone has any potential cites, maps, or any kind of insights. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:42, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

onerous

Could someone versed in law add the legal senses missing to this entry? ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

intelligent life

I noticed this term was deleted in 2017, on the rationale that the definition sucked. Can we agree on a new definition? Purplebackpack89 02:01, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

No. This is SOP. See intelligent definition #4. Benwing2 (talk) 03:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Russian Минск, Менск

Both entries say that usage can be "politically charged", but this is not very helpful when there's no clue in what way it is charged. I'm assuming one form is either pan-Russian or Belarusian particularist/nationalist. But even this may be wrong. And at any rate the reader can't tell which is which. 84.63.31.91 17:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Translations for Western Australia

On the Korean translation for Western Australia, I noticed a random left square bracket in the translation and transliteration. I'm no Korean, but this seems strange. - alex the mid person (talk page here) 19:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

AA and AAA pronunciations

I notice there are no pronunciations for AA and AAA. The entries should probably note that, while written "AA" or "AAA", they are frequently pronounced "Double A" or "Triple A", and occasionally "Two A" or "Three A". Compare XXX, which lists a pronunciation of "Triple X" Purplebackpack89 17:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

and XXXX also has 'four ex' and 'quadruple x' as possible pronunciations, which also seems fair enough to me. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 22:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

It wouldn't be appropriate to do this unless we check for each sense, since this kind of thing can vary. We don't have it as a sense, but The AA in the UK is never said as "double A", for instance. Theknightwho (talk) 22:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Just to add to this: of the first two definitions, AA = Alcoholics Anonymous is never "double A" but AA batteries are usually "double A". Benwing2 (talk) 06:09, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Latin proper nouns

@Urszag has changed Latin Accarōnīta, Accarōnītēs (“Ekronite”), Ammanītēs (“Ammonite”), Argonauta (“Argonaut”), Celta (“Celt”), Croata (“Croat”), Ephrāimītēs (“Ephraimite”), Galatae (“Galatians”), Isrāhēlita, Istrāhēlita (“Israelite”), Persa, Persēs (“Persian”), Pīsīda (“Pisidian”), Sacae (“Sacae”), Scīpiadās (“member of the Scipio family”), Scytha (“Scythian”), Spartiātēs (“Spartan”) (which I reverted), and Sybarīta (“Sybarite”) from common to proper nouns. Should these changes be reverted? J3133 (talk) 07:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I saw your revert, of course, and I'm looking over what current practice is and what definitions are given for proper nouns in various resources. I checked, and we don't seem to have any relevant definition at Wiktionary:Entry_layout#Part_of_speech. As far as nationalities related to nation names go, it looks like our English entries regularly have those as Nouns rather than Proper nouns. Forms like Scīpiadās don't seem obviously more analogous to nationalities than to personal names, however. And English "Argonaut" is marked as a proper noun.--Urszag (talk) 07:09, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@Urszag: Re Argonaut (“one of the members of the Argo”), I am aware and think it should be changed to a common noun; cf. Disciple (“one of the twelve disciples of Jesus”). Argonaut (“team member for the Toronto Argonauts of the Canadian Football League”) as a proper noun is also inconsistent with Lion (“player for Canadian Football League’s B.C. Lions”), etc. J3133 (talk) 07:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Aside from the entries I edited, nearly every term in Category:la:Tribes (802 out of 805) is currently categorized as a proper noun.--Urszag (talk) 07:19, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

on a mission

sense: "Actively and determinedly engaged on a task"

This definition relates to the manner of engagement on the task. The two cites do not support that, instead illustrating the importance of the task and its relationship to the person on the mission.

I have certainly heard the expression being used to refer to the manner of pursuing some objective "as if on a mission", but I'm not finding cites. The definition at MWOnline (sole mainstream dictionary besides enwikt to have a def.) is "undertaking a task that one considers to be a very important duty", no word about manner. DCDuring (talk) 14:24, 11 July 2024 (UTC)